The IM Saturday Monks Brunch: September 15, 2018

69 thoughts on “The IM Saturday Monks Brunch: September 15, 2018”

1. I had that book. My first car was a ’65 blue Beetle. I appropriated it from my mother when I turned 16. I loved that car. I could fill it up for $3 and drive it for 2 weeks. Wish someone had told me what that small, glowing red light below the speedometer meant. Hence the need for the book.

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2. Funny, nobody used the T-word before you showed up…

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3. Why don’t reach down into your inner Boy Scout and do a good deed for somebody…for a change. Good grief!

   1) Since you’re not omniscient, you don’t know what deeds, good or bad, any of us are in the habit of doing.

   2) You should take your own advice: instead of calling strangers you know next-to nothing about “chuckle-heads” (which isn’t very nice! and may hurt our feelings!), do a good deed for somebody.

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4. So, several of you chuckle-heads (You know who you are.) went from bad-mouthing the Apostles/Book of Acts to old guy Pat Robertson, and finally, of course, to “Let ’em all Die in Puerto Rico” Trump. Gotta love it! The fact that you can type while you scream, “Mom, bring me another bag of Cheetos!” is quite impressive. Why don’t reach down into your inner Boy Scout and do a good deed for somebody…for a change. Good grief!

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5. With the Apostles and Book of Acts in a mythological “Holy History” with NO connection to present Reality.

   Without a historical trace, it’s just another book of fairy tales from A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away.

   Islam’s going to have the same problem in a couple generations, with the Wahabi “Wrecknovating Mecca”, bulldozing anything remaining from Mohammed’s time except the Kaaba. Their stated purpose is “to prevent Idolatry”, but they’re destroying their religion’s own historical trace.

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6. Yeah. Somebody REALLY Screwed up with Puerto Rico.
   Worse than the Big Easy with Katrina.

   Morning drive-time described the spin on the death toll of 3000 (most of them due to the aftermath of infrastructure destruction) as “To them, It’s All LIES. FAKE NEWS. THE DEMOCRATS.”

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7. And nothing gets stale faster than Over-Relevance.
   Except PRETENTIOUS Over-Relevance.

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8. And like Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In, they will not age well.
   At least Dan & DIck didn’t pretend to be doing anything more than a topical comedy revue. Nothing gets old-fashioned faster than over-relevance except PRETENTIOUS Over-Relevance.
   SOCK IT TO ME, BABY!

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9. I remember the parking lots at Cal Poly Pomona, 1976-78. Half the cars in the dorm lot were Beetles.

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10. For the “millennials” I know, they all get much more community from their gaming world than church.

    Same for this late-period Boomer if you define “gaming world” to mean pencil, paper, and funny dice instead of smartphone apps.

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11. And to think when he first got mainstream recognition in the Eightes, Pat Robertson had the reputation of one of the moderates when it came to Christians in Politics.

    Efrian Rios Montt of Guatemala? I remember a lot of praises of him on Christianese radio in the early Reagan years, along the lines of he was a Born-Again Christian(TM) President keeping Guatemala safe from the Nicaraguan Communists.

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12. Obviously, it wasn’t a generator brush replacement.
    I understand on the original Beetles, that was the most difficult engine job. In order to get to the generator brushes you had to first remove the generator, and to get access to the generator required an engine lift or close as made no difference.

    Anyone remember “How to Repair Your Volkswagen for the Compeat idiot”?

    Oh, and the original VW (“Kafer” auf Deustch) WASN’T “Hitler’s Car”. Doktor Porsche had been stumping his idea for an inexpensive, easy-to-maintain “People’s Car” since the mid-1920s looking for a backer.

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13. I live to the north of the area that was impacted. I remember feeling very badly for those it harmed, knowing that the very young and the aged and disabled were likely to suffer the most, and indeed an infant with its mother were killed by a falling tree . . . .

    Maybe it might better to pray for everyone in harm’s way, rather than just ‘me and mine’ . . . . better to mourn now with those who mourn rather than to boast that God has favored ‘me and mine’ as many people to the south are now suffering, some more than others and our time is better spent praying for God to help them through this crisis. . .

    Pat Robertson seems challenged in ways. He is very human. If he has the time and the resources in his ’empire’ still, then hopefully he will send aid to the south to help out now without thought of making a profit.

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14. “Why doesn’t he do something useful? Drive a truck. Make a shoe.”
    — Mel Brooks, “The Critic”

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15. I’m a late Boomer, just old enough to remember the real tail end of the 1950s, the First 1960s.

    I remember it as a mixed bag, but it had two cultural attitudes which have since been lost: A sense of decorum and a “Can-Do” Optimism.

    Unfortunately, you always find the opposite polarities of 1950s Derangement Syndrome and 2018 Derangement Syndrome going together.

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16. A) True – but to give no thought or care to where a hurricane might go if it gives your home a miss smacks of callousness. And it wouldn’t be the first time Robertson has done that…

    B ) True, but not relevant to this point.

    C) Again, either pray *nobody* gets affected, or pray for everyone who is. Just DON’T only pray that your town gets spared.

    D) We may not be able to judge God’s actions, but we certainly CAN judge Robertson’s words – and there is plenty of biblical warrant to do so.

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17. Maybe. Just doesn’t seem like it happened for Puerto Rico though.

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18. Last Thoughts about Pat Robertson.

    A) It is NO SIN to pray to the God of all comfort and hope that a potential tragedy might be averted
    .
    B) How God answers prayers; Yes, No, in time or you’ve got to be kidding – grin

    C) SO Pat Robertson not act irresponsibly calling upon God for a shield of protection.

    D) Perhaps God HAS intervened in the weather, we will never know. His purposes are profound and often hidden from His people. I’m in no position to judge God, hardly in any position to judge Pat Robertson.

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19. Richard, maybe we can do that some time. I’ll let you know. Travel budget is busted for now but sooner or later we’ll make up there again.

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20. Hello Rick Ro.

    I guess the Sagrada Familia is an iconic example of religious architecture/interior design. I’m fascinated by it’s history; and I find its very strange beauty beguiling.

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21. If you’re ever kicking around on a Sunday morning, we are next to city hall, a few blocks north from the inner harbor. The early service is in German, the late in English http://www.zionbaltimore.org/

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22. I drive a 2006 beetle. Alas, they are no longer that simple to repair. All the newer additions have had to be fitted into roughly the same space as the ’68s, and a lot of the engine compartment has to be taken apart to get to whatever you need to have fixed. Still love my car, though. I hope it lasts for as long as I can continue to drive.

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23. Good point, Christiane, and one I was even thinking as I hit the “Reply” button.

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24. –> “Church should transform the soul into love of God and neighbour, or what’s the point?”

    I read the end of Luke chapter 7 this morning, and in the account of the woman entering Simon the Pharisee’s home, Jesus seems to provide a mathematical equation for “love”. It seems to be something like this:

    Amount of forgiveness = Amount of love

    In other words, it’s not until you recognize the amount you’ve been forgiven that you can approach an equal amount of love. I think that fits with your comment, Iain. If the church isn’t conveying God’s forgiveness, then it won’t be able to transform people into loving Christians.

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25. Sock It To Me!

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26. Richard. Yes, Television is the culprit, or one of them. My consciousness of it dates to the early fifties. Too many of my cohorts have remained there in their minds, or at least wanted to. I often wonder if all those many cowboy shows where the good guys exert swift and righteous judgement on the bad guys helped distort our views of reality. Justice was near immediate and the lines between good and bad always crystal clear.

    I like Baltimore. Son and his wife moved there four years ago. We’ve visited 4 times since April to see 2 yr old grandson and now 4 month old granddaughter. We’ve spent a lot of time walking around Sells Point as well as downtown. I had forgotten about the German connection.

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27. sometimes, the focus on Christ as ‘the Light of the World’ does impact Church architecture powerfully, as in the interior of La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, Spain

    

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28. I bet more of us here get that reference than don’t…LOL.

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29. VW Beetles were cool; so were the vans. The first “passenger car” my husband and I owned, being Baby Boomers and “clean hippies” was a Microbus. After that, we had a non-camper Vanagon that was perfect for when our children were small.

    However, if I could afford to own another car, I would save our Prius for long trips and drive a Fiat 500 – “Cinquecento” – around town. When the new ones first came out, they looked just like the old ones that were the “peoples’ car” of Italy in the postwar years.

    http://www.italymagazine.com/featured-story/history-icon-fiat-500

    Dana

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30. Those places have no altar and are not viewed as sanctuaries. I would bet money that the theology held by those groups would dismiss entirely the idea of “altar” and “sanctuary” as being “too Catholic” and/or too exclusive.

    “Church stage designs” are one aspect of what happens when the push to be “relevant” overtakes Christians.

    Dana

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31. We’ll see how that alleged shield of protection works in the coming days. Southwestern Virginia could see flooding from Florence over the weekend, while northern and northwestern Virginia could get plenty of rain from Florence’s remnants Monday and Tuesday. But southeastern Virginia, where Pat Robertson is based, escaped the worst of the storm this time. Meanwhile, those of us who have loved ones and friends in North Carolina continue to pray.

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32. The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the fruits of Church State Design was the set of Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In.

    Some of you may get that reference. . . If not, Google it and see if I’m right.

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33. (referring to the church stage designs)

    Those are what happens when the altar and sanctuary become more important than Jesus…

    Lord have mercy.

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34. –> “Pat Robertson is O.K.”

    But he’s not O.K. enough for God to turn back Florence for him.

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35. I will not be in contact with my co-worker again until Tuesday. I don’t have any contact information for her to relay your suggestions; I imagine the situation will have changed by the beginning of the week. If they still apply, I will give your suggestions to her.

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36. And now…opening up for Jesus….

    TIESTO!!!!!

    (Fans go wild waving their glow sticks in the air!)

    (referring to the church stage designs)

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37. He is known in Hampton Roads as ‘a really good business man’. Enough said.

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38. Regarding Sarah Smarsh article , I guess it is all in your perspective. I would take her life story and call it an American success story. Sarah Smarsh has attained a high level of success though her God given talent/intelligence, her personal drive/hard work and taking advantage of the opportunity that is unique to America. She did not make the poor personal choices of her family and hers in not an uncommon story in America.

    On Sept. 23 Sarah Smarsh will be interviewed by Chelsea Clinton at an event. Would Chelsea, Ivanka, GW, Jeb Bush, Al Gore, JFK,, all the Kennedys, would they be able to accomplish what Sarah Smarsh did. I would say maybe but probably not all for sure. That is inherent in any system the privileged has the inner track. In America it is still possible for a Sarah Smarsh to rise and then from a elite perch give an unbalanced , political viewpoint that goes basically unchallenged or not closely examined.

    This goes back to a clip from West Side Story movie last week or so ago, when two different views of “America” are given by an alike group looking at the same situation. It is perspective. Sarah Smarsh could be talking on the conservative talk/book circuit with her story with a conservative slant but for sure she would not be at Harvard or getting a lot of mainstream attention

    Like the hurricane perspective. How blessed , because of our privilege of being born in USA will the response of hurricane recovery and relief efforts be so much better than the poor nation of Philippines . ‘Things’ just do not happen. A lot of hard work, planning, compassion and good faith endeavors enable the USA to respond so well.

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39. In regards to the Robertson video, I do wish all of the ask and receive verses were left out of the Bible. They can be such a trap. I was bitten in the backside by them once, and now I think I over-compensate by not asking for much at all and tend to have a bit of a fatalistic attitude.

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40. I know we’re all praying for your friend and her parents. Do you think the father can drop a ping with this phone, assuming he has a cell phone, or at least get the address from the front desk? If she can get his location, she might be able to contact the Red Cross or an area church to look in on them.

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41. “For the “millennials” I know, they all get much more community from their gaming world than church.”

    Not just millennials. I had the exact same experience. Funny how D&D was much better for my sanctification than weekly bible study groups were. 😉

    Only as we have drifted to a fringe “emerging” congregation have we found anything like a Christian community that wasn’t just about keeping up appearances and maintaining the bubble. Not that I didn’t have any real relationships in the evangelical church, I did – but they were the exception not the rule.

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42. That Cross Fit article was great! I also made me think about why I don’t do fitness classes any more, although I did for several years. I am a bit of an introvert and I decidedly do not enjoy exercise, but I try to do it because I understand the benefits. The whole community aspect of the fitness “tribe” was what turned me off; the right clothes, the lingo, the overly happy attitude of the trainers. Ugh. No thanks. I’ll walk and listen to a podcast, or ride a stationary bike while I read, or do yoga at home.
    The article also helped me understand the limitation of the mega church types of churches shown in the church stage pictures. The power of positive thinking sermons, the loud and energetic praise music, the faux happiness exuded do nothing to nourish my soul. I probably sound like a cranky old lady and I am really not. I just bothers me that fitness and religion seem to both have succumbed to branding and if you don’t fit into the demographic, you aren’t comfortable there. Maybe people haven’t exchanged Crossfit for church; maybe they’ve dropped out of both.
    If that makes sense to anyone out there.

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43. Wow those “church” stage designs are groovy!

    And of course they let you know immediately why you’re there.

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44. For the rural Georgia Southern Baptist church I grew up in the history went like this –

    Jesus
    Peter
    Paul
    Our Church

    Yep we were hardcore.

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45. “Normal” is just the peculiar flavor of weirdness that happens to be practiced by a majority.

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46. “””like so many aspects of 1950s culture, people look back at it and mistake it for the way things always were””””

    This!

    People’s vision of “Normal” may be more important than anything else; values or what not.

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47. He’s certainly in line with the broader “charismatic” movement that’s taken off over the past fifty years. So much of it is rank shamanism. (Consider also: Bethel Redding). I agree, what does this have to do with Christianity?

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48. One downside of a car that lightweight: my grandmother drove a beetle. One time when she had parked it and gone shopping, as a prank someone (probably a group of teenagers) picked it up and carried it onto the sidewalk, and left it right in between two lamp posts so she couldn’t drive it back onto the street.

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49. “Pentecostalism is his background and history. He has represented it for decades.” Yes he has, much to the discredit of both.

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50. Was a reply to Mr. Zook’s comment.

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51. Just as a.data point:. The likelihood of voting correlates to median income. The higher the income the more likely someone votes, so there is a natural skewing.

    One sees this first hand in campaigns. Most campaigns now use electronic tablets loaded with likely-voter files. So going door to door the houses you knock are consistent in one thing: they are the nicer houses with the well kept yards. Or often, these days, they are a nicer house that is showing some neglect and a fading front garden as the constraints of elderliness asert themselves upon the owner.

    Going door to door in a place is an illuminating experience.

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52. Median household annual income of you-know-whose supporters as measured in 2016: $72,000$72,000. Well above the national median.

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53. That article was a strange mixed bag for me; I grew up in an agricultural rural Michigan. There was, and is more of now, real poverty

    I think the best line is: “””I realized, but that I’d been wrong to believe in the American Dream. “”” As This-I-Believe, the “American Dream” is the the poison in the water.

    She made some good points.

    Other bits I couldn’t help but think: “What program were you in? You really needed better friends.”

    > a lot of you-know-who’s support came from more well-off, middle-class “conservatives”

    I have seen the data; and the answer is “Yes”. As there are not enough “rural” people in America to elect a President, not by a mile. Quasi-Wealthy – post rural? – suburbanites elected this dude. I saw quasi-wealthy as despite the McMansion and new car(s) a significant share of those “Middle Class” are sinking, and probably under-water.

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54. Regarding the Guardian piece about rural Kansas; it’s interesting that her mother and some family members eventually learned about the con in “conservative”, although they must be an exception, but maybe a good survey would show that the real rural poor aren’t the real base… I think it also testifies to something I perceive but do not have the surveys/studies to categorically insist on and that is this: a lot of you-know-who’s support came from more well-off, middle-class “conservatives”; ie the faux country people she describes in the beginning driving fancy pick-up trucks flying the flag…

    The media likes to broad-brush the real country people as the reason the-name-to-not-mention rose to power, but in my county, it seems his biggest supporters were middle-to upper class christian white people…the nicest homes in town sported his signs… places not like the country poverty explained in the story. My church’s biggest booster is the wealthiest man among us and he publicly stated his appreciation of the then candidate’s business savvy… shared interest in money-making was part of the attraction, for him and I suspect many others like him.

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55. The Crossfit article is valid. That was me, if the church was being about me being a better person or having relationships, my friends outside the church world were doing much better. The church will always loose in the long term when we play that game. For the “millennials” I know, they all get much more community from their gaming world than church. Spirituality only provides value when it proclaims communion with a God outside ourselves.

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56. I read an article about a mobile home community down by a creek whose residents professed that they were staying in place and sticking together. They are going to lose everything, quite likely including some of their lives.

    Poor people living near a creek likely to flood is all too common a story. For many of them, losing their humble homes probably seems tantamount to losing their purchase on life, since there is no way for them to recoup such a loss, or land on their feet on the other side of it. Contemplating such a prospect, caught between devil and deep blue sea, they would rather go down with the ship; when the waters start to actually rise, they may change their minds, but it’s easy for me to imagine making such a decision to stay myself. Losing everything when that means permanent penury is nearly as terrifying as death, and sometimes more terrifying.

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57. It’s wasn’t enough to show how much of a charlatan he is (yet again) by praying for a shield of protection for Virginia; now he’s showing (yet again) what a moral idiot he is by claiming that his prayers resulted in Florence avoiding Virginia, and going south to hit the neighboring states instead. Screw thy neighbor, I guess.

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58. I complete understand why people stay. Even among those who are physically able and have financial resources, leaving means guaranteed discomfort and expense, compared with possible future discomfort and danger. That doesn’t mean it is a good idea, but it is understandable.

    In the immediate case there are issues of assessing the risk of water. Winds aren’t the real issue here, and storm surge is only an issue on the immediate coast. It is rainfall that will matter. You have to look at your particular piece of heaven and ask yourself what it will be like after a foot or three of rain has fallen. I read an article about a mobile home community down by a creek whose residents professed that they were staying in place and sticking together. They are going to lose everything, quite likely including some of their lives.

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59. The immediate post-war era saw unprecedented church growth. This is the era when church membership (white Protestant, except in ethnic neighborhoods) was the cultural default. This really was only a brief moment in American history, but like so many aspects of 1950s culture, people look back at it and mistake it for the way things always were, before the hippies came along. I suspect television is the culprit here. Yes, there are endless films from the 30s showing a different cultural experience, but those tended to focus and the rich and beautiful. With the 50s we see endless series showing heavily idealized middle class family life. In any case, if we take “Golden Age” to refer to membership numbers and cultural relevance, the 1950s was it for mainline Protestantism.

    My particular church niche looks back earlier than that, to before the First World War, when Baltimore was a German city and made no bones about it. This became a delicate issue once the US entered the war, and we started making compromises such as speaking English. It has been downhill ever since.

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60. He is not okay, and neither was his dirt bag friend, genocidal dictator Efrain Rios Montt.

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61. Pat Robertson is O.K., Pentecostalism is his background and history. He has represented it for decades

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62. Owned a ’68 beetle that needed a clutch. Took it to my local VW mechanic. After thinking he had replaced, repaired the clutch – new clutch plate – began to back it out and it failed. He quickly realized he had put this y shaped piece that held the throw-out bearing in backwards.

    In the next TWENTY-FIVE MINUTES, he removed the engine, reversed the Y shaped piece, stuck the engine back in and fired the car up.

    TWENTY-FIVE MINUTES: Multiple decades later, I’m still impressed.

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63. It’s too bad that Pat Robertson didn’t choose a career or work that contributes to human flourishing, maybe meteorology or short-order cooking. So many decades wasted as a religious parasite, and even at this point he doesn’t have the decency to shut up and retire. He has been one of those giving Christianity a bad name for such a long time.

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64. “People always assume that the church’s primary business is to teach morality. But it isn’t; it’s to proclaim grace, forgiveness, and the free party for all. It’s to announce the reconciling relationship of God to everybody and to invite them simply to believe it and celebrate it. Morality, law, rules, prescriptions – those are all the world’s business. And the world keeps up a steady drumbeat on those subjects: you must do this; you mustn’t do that; you’re out until you can prove yourself worthy of being let in. But that’s just a thinly disguised way of saying that most people aren’t going to be in for very long and that none of them can be in for good. Nobody, from Adam to the last person on earth, can pass a test like that. And therefore God simply doesn’t risk it: by the Mystery of the Incarnation, he cancels all the tests and gives a blanket hundred percent to everyone. In the Mystery of Christ’s death, he drops all the rotten works in the world down the black hole of his own forgetting; and in the Mystery of Christ’s resurrection, he makes a new world in which we’re all home free.”

    — Robert Farrar Capon, The Mystery of Christ… & Why We Don’t Get It

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65. For early boomers and the previous generations, likewise, the fellowship of my heritage would consider the fifties to have been the Golden Age. Fortunately that has changed. As an early boomer myself, I am grateful for how the GenExers and Millenials have changed things in some very good ways. In my lifetime, we have moved from being an isolationist fundamentalist sect to embracing a generic evangelicalism but minus musical instruments and premillenial eschatology. It is a good thing that, contra the flow chart, sermon references nowadays may provide positive Christian examples from across the centuries and various faith boundaries.

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66. I think the guy comparing religion to Crossfit was right the first time and wrong to change his mind. Jesus didn’t say “Come to me all who labour and are heavy laden and I will sympathise and tell you it’s all right” He didn’t say “I have come to lead sinners to feeling OK about being sinners.” Jesus said he came to save sinnersfrom their sin.
    That doesn’t mean “straighten up and fly right” because straitening up and flying right was what the Pharisees offered: Church should transform the soul into love of God and neighbour, or what’s the point?

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67. I wanna see that photo of Mike and Gail again, in front of their ’74 VW Beetle!

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68. A co-worker has senior parents who live in a house in North Carolina a mile from the beach. The father is 70, the mother older with dementia and other health issues; there is no other family in the area (my co-worker and I live in south central PA). My co-worker has been worried sick about her parents. Although they evacuated their home, and have found a hotel room somewhere in NC, her father isn’t sure where they are. In the frequent phone calls my co-worker makes to them she can tell that her dad is having a hard time dealing with her mom, who is very disoriented in her hotel surroundings, away from routine and normal environment, and has been wandering off when her dad’s attention strays due to stress and exhaustion. She couldn’t convince her dad to leave the state; he seems to be unable to deal with the situation, not knowing where to go or how to get there. My co-worker is terribly afraid that their house will be destroyed, or made uninhabitable, and that, when the storm is over, they will have nothing to return to. She wonders how she, with a young daughter and difficult life situation of her own, and little money or resources, will help them when the storm is over. She wonders where they are now, and how they will get by in the interim with their own very limited resources and health issues. I see her crying at work, impotent and caught in the path of a crisis greater than she can handle along with those she loves.

    I understand why at least some people don’t evacuate, and don’t prepare. They are overwhelmed, they are old, they are sick, they are disabled, they have no one to help, they are poor, they have nowhere to go, they can’t imagine surviving away from their homes, they can’t fight for the few loaves of bread left on the grocery store shelves, they can’t find a gas station with any gas left, they can’t lug a gallon of water a day for each person adequate for a two week period — the situation is bigger than their ability to cope, and they feel defeated, and maybe are defeated, from the start. God be with all those in the path of the storm and its aftermath, especially those who have no means of getting out, and nowhere to go.

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69. My particular denomination considers its Golden Age to have been the 1950s; other than that, the “Here’s how most Protestants view/study history” is spot on.

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