In 2016, 81% of white evangelical Christians voted for Donald Trump after (among other things) hearing an audio recording of him bragging about sexually assaulting women.
Maya Angelou famously said, “when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.”
In the years since, even after enacting deliberately cruel policies to rip families apart and put children in cages at the southern border, evangelical support is as fervent as ever.
I was raised in the Evangelical world. It shaped me. I learned to take the words of Jesus seriously – love God, love your neighbor, feed the hungry, fight for justice for the oppressed. I thought that things like love, kindness, gentleness, and self-control MATTERED. I have been so confused and deeply saddened by the unflinching loyalty to a man who so clearly embodies the opposite of these values.
This song is a lament. It’s a loving rebuke. It’s a plea for the 81%, to come home to the way of Jesus.
You can read more about this song and its composer HERE and HERE.
You’ve hit a lot of nails on the head. (So does this song, imho.) The evangelical movement is in deep trouble, I think: it’s certainly entered the political arena, as well as broken up many families and supported a President so immoral, untrustworthy and outrageous that he’s facing impeachment as I write. The song instantly spoke to me – a London-based American who worships at a United Reform Church (what in the US is called Congregationalist). In fact, my minister SENT it to me – anyway, it spoke to me so deeply that I can’t stop playing it and – to be entirely honest – not normally my kind of music, as I am a professional classical musician. But what he’s done is to describe the agony of people like myself, once very close to her sister, but that sister’s swallowing all of Trump’s misdemeanors, in the (utterly wrong) belief that he, the great hypocrite, is a Christian has wrecked all that … Yes, ‘I’m trying to love you now’. But in the face of such virulence and hatred as Trump’s, it’s not easy. If she was to ‘come home’ the tragedy of my life would be healed …The song has an apparent simplicity that belies its true power. I can’t thank Dan enough. He has written my song!!!!
Thank you for posting this.. I (almost) never post anything to Facebook, but I feel that this captures my own feelings so well that I couldn’t resist. It will be interesting to see if I have any friends left other than my immediate family…
Isn’t it remarkable how the evangelical collapse looks so much like victory to so many?
“Winning isn’t everything. Winning is the only thing.”
— attr to Vince Lombardi (but originated by another football coach, Red Sanders)
“The Winner is never asked whether he has won fairly, only that he has Won.”
— Adolf Hitler (Fuehrerbefehl to the German Armed Forces on the invasion of Russia)
Here is the WH talking points of accomplishments that 81% of evangelicals would find compelling enough to vote for overlooking the moral short comings of the President.
Reads like Eagle’s regular troll, minus the hymn refrain between talking points of “Thank You Donald Trump”.
Here are a few examples of how Protestant Christian leaders in Germany spoke about God’s role in Hitler’s accession to power:
• “With National Socialism an epoch in German history has begun that is at least as decisive for the German people, as for example the epoch of Martin Luther.”
• “No one could welcome January 30, 1933 more profoundly or more joyfully than the German Christian leadership.”
• “Adolf Hitler, with his faith in Germany, as the instrument of our God became the framer of German destiny and the liberator of our people from their spiritual misery and division.”
• “[Hitler is] the best man imaginable, a man shaped in a mold made of unity, piety, energy and strength of character.”
• “[Hitler], the most German man, is also the most faithful, a believing Christian. We know that he begins and ends the course of his day with prayer, that he has found in the Gospel the deepest source of his strength.”
• “If the German who truly believed in Jesus could find the Spirit of the kingdom of God anywhere, he could find it in Adolf Hitler’s movement.”
• “In the pitch-black night of Christian church history, Hitler became like a wonderful transparency for our time, a window through which light fell upon the history of Christianity.”
• “[God has granted us an] hour of grace . . . through Adolf Hitler.”
• “God has once again raised his voice in a singular individual.”
Compare these statements with those made in recent months by American charismatic and evangelical leaders:
• “God raised up . . . Donald Trump” (Michelle Bachman).
• “God has righteously chosen [Trump] to affect the way that this nation goes forward” (Chuck Pierce).
• “Donald Trump represents a supernatural answer to prayer” (James Robison).
• “God had raised up [Trump] for such a time as this” (Stephen Strang).
• “Donald Trump actively seeks God’s guidance in his life” (James Dobson).
• Trump’s victory “showed clear evidence of ‘the hand of God’ on the election” (Franklin Graham).
• “[Trump is] a bold man, a strong man, and an obedient man” (Kenneth Copeland).
• “I see this as a last-minute reprieve for America, and the Church” (Rodney Howard-Browne).
• “[Trump] does look like he’s the last hope” (Phyllis Schlafly).
• “God was raising up Donald Trump as He did the Persian king Cyrus the Great” (Lance Wallnau).
• “[Trump is] a man of faith . . . truly committed to making America great again through principles that honor God rather than defy Him” (Stephen Strang).
• “In the midst of . . . despair, came November the 8th, 2016. It was on that day . . . that God declared that the people, not the pollsters, were gonna choose the next president of the United States. And they chose Donald Trump” (Robert Jeffress).
• “We thank God every day that He gave us a leader like President Trump” (Robert Jeffress).
Yours is a common experience for Americans who find themselves in the third world.
It’s hard to imagine anything other than what we take for granted in our gated Elysium.
It makes me think of Colonel Walter E. Kurtz upriver (Apocalypse Now): “…The Horror… The Horror…”
You are right, I should not have said U6, I should have said “Labor Participation Rate.” Good catch, but still, the LPR also includes folks who choose for whatever reason to not work so it is NOT an real measure of “unemployment,” for example it includes the able bodied retired, stay at home spouses (one of things the radical religious right really, really wants women to do). So the 37% does not mean much. 🙂
That an administration lawyer could argue that toothbrushes and soap are not necessary care for interned children is just incredible. Yet that’s what she argued.
In the meantime nearly three dozen American soldiers suffered brain trauma injuries (half of them still not returned to work) as a result of his scuffle with Iran, despite his claim that he was only stepping back from the brink because no Americans were injured or killed in the Iranian missile attack. Pure bullshit. Or maybe since they weren’t bone spurs the injuries don’t count.
He fawns all over Putin and believes Putin rather than the American intelligence community.
Then, after 3-plus years of discrediting the American intelligence community in order to credit Putin, he expects us to believe it with regard to the Soleimani assassination, or if a euphemism is preferred, “targeted killing.”
I’ve never been good at stockpiling resources, even a little bit of them. If things turn into the scenario you refer to, I suppose it will just be time to die — and hope in the resurrection….
Trump has never once “confronted” Russia. He fawns all over Putin and believes Putin rather than the American intelligence community. That is a fact, Dan. And we achieved energy independence under Obama. Your other points have *some* truth to them – what I’d say is that Trump is actually no better than previous presidents on the foreign policy score, either.
Yes, let the voters decide. And whatever they decide, put not your trust in princes, in man, in whom there is no salvation. Christians have expected way too much from every president from Bush #1 on. Our witness to Christ is trashed because of Evangelicals’ support of Trump, no matter how they justify it.
I swallowed hard and voted for Hillary. it made me sick at heart. But as we have seen with our own eyes there is worse than the Clintons. Before it’s over I’m going to bet the Republicans will wish she had won too.
Yeah. I just don’t like being pidgeon-holed. I don’t feel so easily defined as that but even more importantly I’m not sure who and what all is represented by that phrase so I’d rather not settle for being associated with them. I’m not completely oblivious or unaware of the fact that some of my thinking would be in lockstep but there are many ways in which I go askew from what I think is represented there. Politically I am no longer Republican. I’m going Independent. Keep my options open.
I’m all for out-of-the-box thinking and contemplating oxymorons, but can you describe a case where mercy is more severe than punishment? (Just trying to figure that one out!)
I think the problem most of us Christians who are non-Trumpers have is: We don’t hear or see a lot of Evangelicals who ARE agonizing. And that’s why you hear and see a lot of us being vocal about the pro-Trump Evangelicals here at iMonk. Where is their agonizing? Where are their “held noses”?
Mule, I had a similar experience in Haiti around 1995. I was helping to conduct a swine production seminar for Haitian academics at the U in Port au Prince. A meal of rice and chicken was provided. When I finished eating I asked what to do with my chicken bones–there was not a waste container present–and was told to pitch them behind me into the grass, which I did. Immediately several children scrambled for and competed for my chicken bones. Plenty of food was available to we who were at the seminar. I couldn’t allow those children to go unfed…
Unlike the U-3 rate, the U-6 unemployment rate includes a whole swath of unemployed people—namely, everyone not listed in the U-3 rate. That means the U-6 rate is much truer to a natural, non-technical understanding of what it means to be unemployed.
This rate accounts for anyone who has been seeking employment for at least 12 months but left discouraged without being able to secure a job. It also includes anyone who has gone back to school, become disabled, and people who are underemployed or working part-time hours.
By capturing everyone who exists on the margins of the labor market, the U-6 rate provides a broad picture of the underutilization of labor in the country. In this sense, the U-6 rate may be considered the true unemployment rate.
According to BLS data, the average annual U-3 rate for 2018 was 3.9%, while the average annual U-6 rate was much higher, coming in at 7.7%.
There has been no need though, to separate children from families.
Or to do it in such a way that there is no way of administratively linking them to their families to reunite them.
Or to deny them basic necessities such as toothbrushes, soap etc.
Or, of the love of all that is holy, to see tiny children, tiny little children, expected to defend themselves all alone in immigration courts.
All of these things should never had to happen, no matter all the other arguments regarding immigration, this is the work of monsters. Pro-life? What a joke.
In the words of the Archdruid – “Collapse now. Avoid the rush.”
Honestly, re-reading Peggy Noonan’s essay from 2004 the link to which you posted confirmed a feeling I’ve had for some time. Of the people who ‘matter’ in our sad world, a significant fraction have already resigned themselves to a ‘free-market die-off’ scenario for the mid future, and they are busy stockpiling resources for what they view as inevitable.
The problem with planning for a collapse of this magnitude is that Black Swan events like the election of Donald Trump become more frequent and more powerful in their disruption. I notice that the Archdruid’s compadre, Dmitry Orlov, recently had his “5 stages of collapse” republished:
Abortion rates decline when conception rates decline.
These decline when there is good, solid sex education which ensures that young people (all people) understand their bodies, & how babies are conceived, plus how to prevent that happening through good contraception education & provision, including abstinence/celibacy if they hold to a faith position.
Rates of conception also decline when women have a more equal position in society, relationships & in marriage, & where sex is not something that ‘happens to them’ (which is a form of rape) that they have no control over. Overall, many of those going for abortions currently are married, & already have some children, they just haven’t managed to prevent unwanted conception.
Where these- sex ed, equality, contraception – are missing the conception rate goes up, & with it the rate of abortion. It’s why de-funding places like Planned Parenthood are counterproductive because long-term they help to reduce the ‘need’ for abortion, plus provide a lot of other obstetric.gynaecological services to women that have nothing to do with termination.
I thrashed this all out morally years ago & is why I have done 20 years in all, but certainly the last 15 years teaching basic anatomy, how conception & implantation happen, & contraception methods to the young people I have worked with, as part of my job. I’ve also supplied contraception & taken young people to sexual health clinics. I realised pretty early on that you can’t expect non-Christians to live like Christians, & that not giving access to contraception doesn’t stop them having sex. They just have unprotected sex, which, as I never tire of saying, is how you get pregnant when you’re trying to.
Conception has fallen in the age ranges I work with in the UK over the last 10 years for these reasons, & with it, abortion.
I’m really anti-abortion, except in the cases of maternal/foetal risk, gross foetal disease or disorder, incest, rape or similar because the mother is a person too, & deserves help. I have no idea why those who claim to be anti-abortion the loudest are also often the most active in ensuring that women have no way of preventing unwanted conception – & somehow men are always left out of the responsibility equation.
Where I am (“Del Norte”, the Mexican border region of the US Southwest), ethnicity has always been defined by language (English or Spanish?) more than color. In a way, language & culture is a more understandable dividing point than ethnicity/race. With language comes an accompanying culture.
In SoCal we have three main cultural roots:
1) “Del Norte”, with Spanish colonial culture influence by way of Mexico (and Mexico’s history reads as one long tragedy).
2) “The Left Coast”, a culture parodied by Portlandia under a Woke-ocracy I think you once described as “New England Puritans, seven times distilled down to eliminate any hint of God-talk while retaining all the Righteousness and Moral Fury”.
3) “The Far West”, from Westward Expansion frontier culture, familiar to anyone who’s viewed a lot of classic Westerns.
Now Far West + Del Norte I can handle; that’s a border culture and border pidgin language you always get where two cultures and languages butt up against each other. But Far West + Left Coast is not only an explosive mixture, but hypergolic. With Yugoslav levels of tribalism-unto-death.
Chaplin Mike, I am old enough to remember when the catch phrase was safe, legal and rare, that is one example of a slippery slope. Could there be a day when gov’t /society decrees to a woman that an abortion is mandatory for economic well being of the general society like China with one child policy? Our political choice is a party of unrestrictive abortion or one that at least urges restraint on the issue at the least as full ban will never happen. Safe, legal and rare was a slogan but at least it showed some sense of the serious nature of the issue that is life or death for the child waiting to be born.
“The “American Way of Life” as it has been defined for my lifetime is about to come under some severe strains in the lifetime of my children and grandchildren. Indeed, most of the static in our political system is because the stress is already there. Our political system doesn’t work anymore for most of the people who live here, and everyone’s looking for the reason.”
And the solution. Can we learn to accommodate, to share, to accept decline gracefully? Or will we tear ourselves to shreds fighting over the scraps? Preliminary results do NOT show promise. 😦
Dana and others, In Nov 2020 we will see what the American jury of voters think of Trump’s record . I know you not at all but based on what little I have read of your comments here I would never dream you would hate evangelicals or anyone based on their faith, some things need not be said. Your analysis of Trump achievements is your analysis and opinion based on what you have gathered to be the factual truth . I think Trump’s achievement record for 3 years has been great. We all need to look at the facts not rhetoric and make our decision. I give you credit for discernment and making considered decisions, do I come across as ill informed or a cheerleader oblivious to the facts.
No other President has confronted China, North Korea, Russia and Iran in the manner Trump has for example. President Nixon and all the establishment professionals who have given us the Middle East never ending wars, made China a super power by our own actions, enabled N. Korea to produce a nuclear arsenal (with the great help of China), allowed the middle class and working class wages to go dormant while we import cheap labor to enrich the rich. How about NATO and the free ride since 1990 actually 1945 Europe got. How about absolutely standing with the nation of the Never Again people to aid them in their struggle to survive. Energy independence alone is an achievement of great import. Just throwing out some foreign affairs bullets for thought. as you mentioned the list was mostly about the economy which usually decides the election.
We can all disagree and that is why we have elections.
If we can’t change minds, we can at least point out the obvious. As Richard John Neuhaus once said, “If you can’t light a candle, a little measured cursing of the darkness is called for, if only to remind ourselves that we should not feel at home in it.”
There are 6 official measurements of unemployment; U1 through U6. The U3 measure is the normally reported measurement and uses the number of unemployed who are actively looking for work and is the 3.8% rate. The 37% comes from U6, the labor force participation rate, and is based on all those who could work but are not so it includes those in U3 and those no longer looking for work and those retired who could work but choose not to, stay at home parents, and etc.
To keep it “apples to apples” U3 is used as the rate generally reported. You use U6, generally out of context, when you want to make someone look bad. They did it to Obama too. But as the population ages and life spans increase the U6 inevitably goes up. Heck I’m 68 and newly retired but I could still work if I chose so I am in U6.
Stbndct, you and several others really need to tone it down. This is a blog about what it means to be post-evangelical and to process life from that perspective. How in the world can anyone express the post-evangelical mindset and viewpoint without dealing with the political realities we face here in the US.?
Daniel Deitrich’s song is a post-evangelical lament. It’s about the church abandoning the message of Jesus (as DD sees it), not about Trump. It is not about politics, but about what he believes is faithful Christian practice. It is about how the cross is our symbol, not the flag.
Agree with him or not, I can’t think of anything more appropriate for this blog.
I will add this. I was visiting Portland Oregon and there was a guy living on the street with a sign that said $10 minimum. We never spoke a word but we had a substantial conversation with our eyes. I said “you must be kidding, you cannot be serious”. He said, “What are you looking at?” Needless to say I did not give anything and if I had seen any stray fives or singles lying around him I would’ve picked them up. If you’re talking about people who want their means and their dignity to be handed to them on a SilverPlatter and then wish to be thanked for providing us that grand opportunity, then yes I am in your club. Another thing is I don’t have a lot of time for people that are out in the streets protesting what they don’t know (though I do think that has ebbed of late and people seem to be protesting some specific thing). Anyway, another progressive club I am not a part of. That to me is just killing time, making yourself feel important. The post here today is not that. I find it to be brave, specific, pointed, necessary and admirable.
Just a couple of notes Muley. I can’t imagine you’re talking to me when you say “you progressives“. I say that tongue-in-cheek because I know that I am “progressive” in much of my thinking but I am really living on a bit of an island. I can’t name anyone in the clan except for the obvious politicos. I am not part of that club. In a very conservative Republican way, I am a business owner who has been working my tail off since 1982 and I have done my damnedest to save money for my retirement. I am generous in a quite natural way with money and possessions but have no interest in giving it to anyone except the people I wish to give it to. That is to say, if you force me to be generous, unduly, then I will have something to say because that’s not generosity at all. I’m happy to have what I have and would not want to be poor. Having said that I think I would manage because I have been poor in the past. I know how to live poor, though I’m guessing it would be a lot harder now than it was in my twenties. To wrap this point up I would say that I see all kinds of hysteria about the government co-opting all of our possessions through the crazy tax system but I don’t fear that because I think it’s just hysteria. The pendulum swings back-and-forth and we live our lives through it sometimes paying less and sometimes paying more. There’s nothing to get in a frenzy about.
Secondly, I have no interest in beating you about the head, you poor white stuff. I am as pasty white as you and I’m really neither proud nor ashamed of it. That’s what life handed me and I live it as best I can. My real concern is self actualization if you will, if I can get all psychological wit it. I simply want to make sure I live out the essence of the seed that Christ planted in me and have a life-giving affect in the world instead of a negative one. Whatever club that plants me in is determined, I suppose, by anyone other than me. As for me I am not paying dues to any fraternal order, right or left. I love my God, I love my wife and I want to share that love with anyone I come in contact with, as God gives this schmuck the grace to do it. That’s my cause and I’m stickin’ to it.
most of the items on that list have to do with the economy and jobs. Usually, economic and job trends show outcomes years after the ground work was laid for them. Therefore, Trump is reaping the benefits of what happened in the Obama years (whether Obama was directly responsible or not). Manufacturing in this country is up at a laughably small rate. Also, working class people are still not earning at the same level as they did were when you and I were teenagers. Trump in office hasn’t changed that at all.
And ask some farmers what they really think about the Trump trade policies. Reality is, those policies are costing all of us money. In the past, a lot of trade negotiations have included incentives to reduce human rights abuses around the world. Arguably the worst human rights abuser is China, but that doesn’t seem to matter to Trump.
It’s Congress – both parties – who deserves the blame for the immigration problem. They haven’t done much in three decades to solve it, and they’re the ones that make the laws.
The administration has had some influence on abortion funding, but it has been minimal. There are fewer abortions, but the reasons are sociological, not political. I don’t believe Roe v. Wade will be overturned, even if all the Supreme Court Justices were conservatives.
The only truly good thing Trump has done is to sign the criminal justice reform provisions into law. It’s been other people who have been responsible for anything good in his administration. Trump is a smart con man and a grifter, and only cares about 1) what he can get away with to advance his own brand, 2) his TV ratings and 3) the size of the crowds at his events. All you have to do is to listen to the words that come out of his mouth. I challenge you to ignore the spin and just listen to his exact words.
I did not vote for Hilary Clinton. I am not a registered Democrat – nor am I a registered Republican; I’m a “decline to state party”. I was an Evangelical for +30 years, and some of my dearest friends (and some of the most Christ-like people I know) are Evangelicals, so I don’t hate Evangelicals.
Linguistic prejudice is more deeply engrained than pigment-based. The alabaster-colored Kosovars two doors down irk me more with their impenetrable babble than my English-speaking African American neighbors.
Dan, you say that an anti-abortion person has but two choices. I do not think that is the case. It is a well-known fact that it has been under Democratic administrations that abortion rates have declined the most. I don’t know why that happens but some have suggested that perhaps it is because progressive people generally have a broader understanding of what it means to be fully pro-life. Abortion happens in a context. Many of the social justice issues that concern people with a more progressive perspective are about those contexts whereas conservatives don’t see things the same. That is the reason I am opposed to abortion but also think that it should be kept legal, safe, and accessible.
As it did to German Christians in the Thirties. Professor Fea’s blog had a link to that a week or two ago. Can’t link to it right now, but “Bonhoffer” was part of the title.
“I GOT MINE,
I GOT MINE,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE…”
— Glenn Frey, “I Got Mine” (a song about the indifference of those on top to the plight of those on the bottom)
That’s how it is with every movement out of which a revolution arises. And the outcome of the revolution is always immediately worse (and often as time goes on just as bad) than what it replaced.
Another Trump advantage was his in-your-face confrontation manner and crude language.
Every other candidate except Feel-the-Bern Sanders talked like every word out of their mouth was written by attorneys and spin doctors, vetted through focus groups, and read word-for-word off the teleprompter. Anyone who came across as blunt and direct would have stood out.
Turns out those kinds of Republicans don’t want a small government after all. They want a government strong enough to keep the Spanish speakers ( and Hmong, and Albanian, and Amharic, and Hausa, and Burmese, and Tamil) out of their neighborhoods.
Didn’t this used to be called “WHITES ONLY”?
(Which begs the question how narrowly you define “white”. Take a look at some Homeowners Association CC&R’s from the 1930s through 1950s (known as “Restricted Neighborhoods” at the time) to see who was and who wasn’t White. I do know under 19th Century Scientific Racism and Eugenics, I am NOT White.)
Amen to this hymn and to its message. We need prophetic voices at times like this. May we hear more of them, and may we see the church return to its true identity and calling.
Here is the WH talking points of accomplishments that 81% of evangelicals would find compelling enough to vote for overlooking the moral short comings of the President. How much of this list would HRC achieved or even try to if she were elected. This is more remarkable as that the full force of the establishment is fully Never Trumper and is entrenched. . I would call it a miracle but the age of miracles is over. Take the list for what its worth and research it . The only pure truth you will hear is from me.
Well, Kennedy certainly had his peccadilloes, but that was in a day when they were hidden, not bragged about. At least he was reasonably competent administrator who seemed to care about the country and was hoping to give some vision in the Cold War days. I think Kennedy’s actual presidential record is mixed. There’s much more negative on DJT’s record.
I’ll take the lead. I would like to see detainment facilities set up that would not separate parties of immigrants, and that would be minimally comfortable. I understand that what would be unbearably spartan for middle-class Americans would be a step up for a lot of favela dwellers, but there is no sense in being needlessly cruel just to serve as a deterrent.
In South America, if your family doesn’t pay for you to eat in jail or bring you food, you starve or eat what you can catch . I guess here in America we will end up feeding and clothing them on a minimal level. Maybe the kinds of exploitative corporations involved in the prison industrial system would see this as a chance to expand their operations, but I would expect humanitarian opposition to this as well.
Working on a way to get them back to their points of origin after their asylum requests have been denied is also a point of contention. Lots of people fly in to Mexico, overstay their tourist visa, and head straight for El Norte. It isn’t fair to Mexico, really, to send these people back there.
The money could come from a rounding error in the Pentagon budget.
–> “There is an old joke in the legal profession. By way of background, in a trial the jury is there to decide questions of fact, while the judge decides questions of law. So, the joke goes, if you are trying a case and you have the facts on your side, pound the jury with the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the judge with the law. If you don’t have either the facts or the law on your side? Pound the table with your fist. ”
I’ve been binging the old Law and Order show lately, and this plays out often!
Chaplin Mike, of course difference of values is why we have different personal and political opinions . Would HRC if she won in 2016 approved any of the link attached actions that Trump supported for whatever reason? Would any of the 2020 Democrat contenders support any thing that full unrestricted abortion rights? So an anti abortion person of strong conviction has 2 choices , Trump, supporter for whatever reason or Democrat supporter of unrestricted abortion. That is the real choice. What value is more important? It is fine and as it should be if Dietrich wishes to use his faith position to advocate for his positions, I am sure he is working on a anti abortion song to coincide with his value system which translates into his political value system.
–> “The words came to my mind ‘would you trade places with this man?’ That froze my blood. The first thing that came to my mind was ‘hell, no’ The response was almost immediate: ‘Why not? I did for you’. Even if the exchange was with my subconscious, it was a rattling encounter. I just don’t have the Holy Ghost power necessary for that kind of self-denial.”
This resonates with me a lot, Mule. I’ve had several of those subconscious pricks of the Spirit, and have ignored almost every single moment of self-denial. Perhaps the only two I HAVE obeyed were my initial response to His call to follow Him, and another instance too long to go into. But mostly, it’s just lower my head and pretend I didn’t hear Him. Like you said, it rattles you; there’s some shame in there.
–> “It is a sign of how contentious our times are that we can’t just acknowledge that and make it a point of conversation, not warfare.”
An extremely valid point. And unfortunately, Trump is so divisive that he sucks the fruit of the Spirit out of most Christians regardless of which side of the aisle they’re on.
Like I said, Lord Jesus, please have mercy on us all.
Chaplin Mike , Got it, , I poorly worded and explained myself in my post . I know that Schenck did not change his view on being anti abortion but re reading my own words that was represented. My thought about evolving on issues such as Schenck;s position on gun rights morphing into a change into other issues such as an adamant pro life stand, was what I was trying to get to. The right to life rally historically is well attended and all shades of religious differences, philosophy issues are laid aside for a day to defend the unborn children. Trump did not call the rally into order, no political grandstanding other that right to life issue was there for . The President of the USA was there to show support for the pro life movement. The reoccurring Pro Life labeling leads to a different set of values and issues than just protecting children from abortion. Plainly put , Trump’s participation did not add any greater support to the rally or the issue. Certainly Schenck and anyone can stand on their beliefs and principles , which he did If Bernie Sanders was speaking in support of restricting late term abortions by lawful legislation I would attend to advance the banning of late term abortion not to support Bernie Sanders. I never heard of Schenck before but now out of interest will be interested to where his evolution on issues takes him. Would Schenck want all those who attended , who are as anti abortion as him . to boycott the event as it could be taken as support of Trump , zero turnout? Just an unanswerable question to ponder.
I find it hard to believe that you are really that uncomprehending. But, I’ve lived long enough to know that all things are possible. Take comfort, you are not alone. I have a fair number of evangelical friends who have also jettisoned their belief that character and Jesus’ words matter.
This is something that constrains my heart. The “American Way of Life” as it has been defined for my lifetime is about to come under some severe strains in the lifetime of my children and grandchildren. Indeed, most of the static in our political system is because the stress is already there. Our political system doesn’t work anymore for most of the people who live here, and everyone’s looking for the reason.
When I was in Uruguay, which is a relatively prosperous South American country, I had abject poverty rubbed in my face for the first time. I remember talking about “the Gospel” with a desperate father in front of a cardboard shack The words came to my mind ‘would you trade places with this man?’ That froze my blood. The first thing that came to my mind was ‘hell, no’ The response was almost immediate: ‘Why not? I did for you’.
Even if the exchange was with my subconscious, it was a rattling encounter. I just don’t have the Holy Ghost power necessary for that kind of self-denial. If you progressives want to beat us comfortable white folk about the head with Jesus’ social ethics, by all means, take the lead. And no, voting to take my stuff away and spread it around doesn’t count.
“Trump may be a good president for the top 1% – and especially for the top 0.1% – but he has not been good for everyone else. If fully implemented, the 2017 tax cut will result in tax increases for most households in the second, third, and fourth income quintiles.”
“The number of uninsured nonelderly Americans decreased from over 46.5 million in 2010 (the year the ACA was enacted) to just below 27 million in 2016. However, for the second year in a row, the number of uninsured people increased from 2017 to 2018 by nearly 500,000 people.”
I think we are at a moment of interest with this thing. Mark Galli lobbed a huge shell into it. A song like this is a truly 1960’s-ish expression of resistance to a questionable ethos accepted as status quo. It’s young people who will now begin following the rebellion, and taking it over, in droves, and rightly so. When you look back at the Catholic Church and wonder how it could have been that they engaged in grisly, anti-Christ things like the Spanish Inquisition, you only have to look at our day and age to see how power corrupts and distorts the most fundamental and otherwise unquestioned, uncontroversial tenets of the Christian faith. There are many modern day Christians who espouse ARMED (wait, what?) resistance and civil war as a necessity for protecting ….what? The Lord? Their way of life? Certainly armed conflict will shatter life as they know it but Jesus and beatitudes be damned. Onward Christian soldiers.
What I am encouraged by is things like this song and Mark Galli’s commentary. Life and love. Kindness and light. Like sprouts from the ground after winter inevitably arise with tenacity. This song is part of the bubbling water of an eventual fountain. It’s the first green shoot of a bean sprout that just doesn’t take no for an answer. Sorry if I’m overstating things but essentially I’m just saying that I’m pleased to see that despite the fact that they will face glares, stern and truly ugly accusations and bitter resistance from some of their brethren, people inside the fold are speaking out as has been hoped for.
One of the simple reasons I put this song up today is to show that there are some evangelicals who are looking at things differently than those who populate the common narrative. It is a sign of how contentious our times are that we can’t just acknowledge that and make it a point of conversation, not warfare.
Dan, you are missing the wholesale hypocrisy of evangelicals who once insisted with all their hearts that character matters. And our composer today is calling them out for missing Jesus’ message of justice, which is generally not a conservative strong point of emphasis. On that there is a genuine difference of opinion that should be discussed, realizing that conservatives and more progressive people look at some things from very different value foundations.
Either Chesteron or Lewis (I think it was Chesterton) wrote once that in magical traditions it’s the Dark Forces/Dark Powers who have the reputation for Getting Things Done…
Point missed, Dan. Schenck did not change his position on abortion. He merely did not want to attend a Trump campaign rally in the guise of the March for Life.
Headless Unicorn Guy, Secular Trumpista, would be a promotion to me. How about someone who laid out some facts/issues pertaining to the article. that so far are unaddressed. Conflating my comments to w2guys on the vaunted Eagles blog gives me no reference point as the only eagle I know is Donovan McNabb. What is the problem of being a secular Trump supporter who wants his candidate to win? So how about the Dietrich song ? You may want to consult with the Eagle to see what you think. The only thing I know of the Eagle is that it landed in 1969.
“Remember the Coming Evangelical Collapse?
Well, this is it.”
But who cares as long as WE’re the ones on top?
“Before that can happen, make sure WE are the ones who define what is legal and what is not.”
— L Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology
During my time in-country in the Seventies, the Christian Hive Mind in Groupthink Lock-Step was in full force. Just then it was Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick instead of Donald Trump.
And when consensus in a group reaches 80%, Groupthink locks in as The One True Way and all dissidents are Purged/Cleansed. This is why the 81% in 2016 was especially worth notice.
How about “Regular Trumpista Troll”?
Eagle’s blog has two of them. The real FANATIC of the two (“I give Donald Trump Praise and Adoration”) is quick with barrages of Chapter-and-Verse Proof Texts and Anathemas. As far as I can tell, he’s not a Poe but a True Believer.
When Trump wins again , it will be interesting to see the election night analyst being baffled once again.
“Why do the Kings of the Earth rage against The LOOOOOOORD and His Anointed”?
P.S. Your whole comment has the vibe of a secular Trumpista: “PWN THOSE LIBS! PWN THOSE LIBS! STICK IT TO ‘EM! STICK IT TO ‘EM! TRUMP! TRUMP! TRUMP!” That was the main vibe I got in 2016, when the disdain of Their Wokeness to the Lowborn hit critical mass. It had been building for decades and had to boil over sometime.
“Trump and Pompeo were walking around La Valle with a paper grocery bag in one hand, grabbing asylum seekers with the other, holding the bag against their cheeks and gleefully tossing those who didn’t pass the test into cages while robed megachurch choirs sang in the background “Nearer my Trump to Thee?”
Clay C. what is the point I missed? Since I missed it , now I am curious.? I would say point well taken but I do not get the point. When phrase I seldom read here if point of fact and it is okay to have different point of view .
The joke is funny, but it obscures the basic question. What should we do with the kids? I have heard that Bush’s and Obama’s administrations separated kids from their relatives as well. I haven’t looked into that very closely but I am willing to entertain the idea. It’s hard to get any facts these days without a side order of outrage being added to the plate.
Latin Americans define family differently than we do. Kids who show up at the border accompanied by an older sibling or a cousin or a great aunt is defined as an “unaccompanied minor”. My son, during the last year of the Obama administration, worked for a company who operates some very sketchy “neglected child” shelters in the Southeast. American kids in cages, if you please. Now, my son couldn’t in good conscience continue to sign off on the treatment these kids were getting, so he quit, but not before trying to ‘blow the whistle’ to local media. It turned out that everybody knew these places were hell-holes but nobody gave a left-handed shit. No one was gonna take these problematic kids into their homes.
Now, according to my son, their parent company has won the contract to build border facilities for detained children. Sounds like a match made in hell.
There is an old joke in the legal profession. By way of background, in a trial the jury is there to decide questions of fact, while the judge decides questions of law. So, the joke goes, if you are trying a case and you have the facts on your side, pound the jury with the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the judge with the law. If you don’t have either the facts or the law on your side? Pound the table with your fist.
Someone wants to talk about kids in cages? Change the subject, and pound the table about that.
Perhaps we should let Dan Dietrich dictate immigration policy. /s
The whole song was about ‘kids in cages’. To listen to the majority narrative, you’d think Trump and Pompeo were walking around La Valle with a paper grocery bag in one hand, grabbing asylum seekers with the other, holding the bag against their cheeks and gleefully tossing those who didn’t pass the test into cages while robed megachurch choirs sang in the background “Nearer my Trump to Thee?”
Let’s leave aside the important fact that most of the illegal immigration to our country occurs because of overstayed tourist, student and other non-immigrant visas rather than fleet-footed brownies. What kind of immigration policy should we have? It’s obvious that what we have now isn’t working, and doesn’t make anybody happy. You have to deal with the reality that 1) these people are fleeing some horrific situations in their home countries. 2) they are going to arrive more quickly than you can process them 3) the states have no authority to create separate immigration policies, so my preferred Federalist solution ain’t gonna get off the ground here.
Maybe my old holy roller preacher was right. Christians have no place in politics. Politics is the business of protecting your interests over against the other guy, who is attempting to do the same thing, and according to him, “Christians shouldn’t have interests. A little food, a little clothing, a little shelter oughta be enough for us.”
Nobody else wanted to touch it. Everybody knew ¡Yeb! was going to be pro-amnesty. Marco Rubio was suckered by Snake Schumer into co-sponsoring an unpopular immigration bill that took him out of consideration in the Republican primaries. Dyspeptic Ted Cruz came too late to the battle with too little, depending on the tattered ghost of Ronnie Reagan’s small government Republicanism to carry him to victory. After Donnie staked out the territory, he made the issue his own in a way that gave him a real boost among likely Republican voters.
Turns out those kinds of Republicans don’t want a small government after all. They want a government strong enough to keep the Spanish speakers ( and Hmong, and Albanian, and Amharic, and Hausa, and Burmese, and Tamil) out of their neighborhoods.
And if its strong enough to keep women from getting abortions, well, that’s just a plus, isn’t it?
For that matter, Hilllary Clinton is Methodist, and apparently pretty serious about it, though not in the “praying on street corners” way that so man Evangelicals take as a sign of authenticity.
Maybe we should let Dan Dietrich dictate immigration policy. The whole song was about ‘kids in cages’. To listen to the majority narrative, you’d think Trump and Pompeo were walking around La Valle with a paper grocery bag in one hand, grabbing asylum seekers with the other, holding the bag against their cheeks and gleefully tossing those who didn’t pass the test into cages while robed megachurch choirs sang in the background “Nearer my Trump to Thee?”
Let’s leave aside the important fact that most of the illegal immigration to our country occurs because of overstayed tourist, student and other non-immigrant visas rather than fleet-footed brownies. What kind of immigration policy should we have? It’s obvious that what we have now isn’t working, and doesn’t make anybody happy. You have to deal with the reality that 1) these people are fleeing some horrific situations in their home countries. 2) they are going to arrive more quickly than you can process them 3) the states have no authority to create separate immigration policies, so my preferred Federalist solution ain’t gonna get off the ground here.
Maybe my old holy roller preacher was right. Christians have no place in politics. Politics is the business of protecting your interests over against the other guy, who is attempting to do the same thing, and according to him, “Christians shouldn’t have interests. A little food, a little clothing, a little shelter oughta be enough for us.”
Wow. Politics in spiritual places again. What did Jesus say about judging? And yet here it is. Sad. Before you keep judging please acquaint yourself with ALL the facts, e.g., the “cages” and separation started underneath the previous administration. And if you’re going to judge, how about looking at the parents who knowingly decide to break the law and endanger their kids? Yeah Trump is such a bad president — lowest unemployment (including minorities) inl decades, huge reduction of people below the poverty line and on aid, more new home starts, growing businesses and new jobs, all allowing more people to have what they need and reach the dream. Governments are NOT charitable institutions. Stop judging. Hypocrisy.
Seems like this is a gradual, sincere change of heart starting with the 2 amendment issues . Like many Schenck is evolving on issues as per this original 2015 piece in the Huff Po. So , Schenck’s disapproval of Trump overrode his belief that abortion is a evil that must be confronted. I am hoping that Trump will come out in favor of strict climate change issues and then people will fall off that bandwagon (just a joke). So if Trump supports an issue, it must be opposed as Trump is worse than abortion. Who has done more to stop the number of abortions though their efforts Schenck or evil Trump? however Trump’s motive are not as pure as the correctly nuanced Schenck. Trump can do no good , pro abortion activist can do no wrong.
The only way to get a lot of comments on this Christian blog is to mention Trump. To all the people who voted for Hillary did you think you were getting someone with fine Christian qualities ? I won’t even get into the Obama immigration policies which were just as bad. You progressives are going nuts because Trump will win re-election easily. Chaplin Mike, why don’t you have a Trump free lent this year and get this blog back where it needs to be. Trump has become your everyday obsession and it’s sad to see. If you approached the Lord with the same intensity who knows what may happen.
Russian Bot- really how silly. Again goes to the point the Dems with their allies ,the mass media laid the ground work to discredit the lawful election immediately. The comment about religious preference escapes me as to meaning except to critique my communication skills. People will vote for a candidate that they disagree with on faith , who they may think vile but they agree with on the issues that matter to them. When you have to parse the meaning of someone else words about leaving your mind at the door than you have a problem. Why was this statement needed by Deitrich, other than to disparage anyone that may come to the service who disagrees with him, the closed minded 81%..
M. Spencer ‘s prediction was American evangelicalism is a dead man walking while accurate the description evangelical can be replace by American Catholic, Jewish, Mormon or whatever organized religion you chose and it would be true. America is becoming a nation of nones, as we all know, I believe, according to a hotel commercial this is called being Captain Obvious .
Fortunately for the Dems, President Trump own personal persona is his greatest and most damaging aspect. As per above comments, issues, policy results, accomplishments and real results are not discussed just the personal shortcomings, the “vileness” of Trump and the moral superiority of those who have the national platform to set the correct moral standards according to ? When Trump wins again , it will be interesting to see the election night analyst being baffled once again.
Just to ease your progressive minds, the demographics insure your blue state politics will prevail within the next few years as Tx. Ga Fl turn blue. Then we are California and NY as a nation forever blue and if I am still here I will certainly be blue also. It will be great especially if you are a relative of Joe Biden , a very special group that excel in making money though hard work and effort. Go Big Blue.
And there were plenty of actual evangelicals in the Republican primaries. Trump blew them all out of the water. Whatever attracted evangelicals to him, it was NOT shared faith.
It’s not just about who voted for DT. It’s about who continues to make the Faustian bargain of supporting DT, often enthusiastically. As Pastor Rob Schenck wrote, for example, about why he chose not to attend the recent March for Life:
With the campaign of Donald Trump, the movement I once devoted my life to was swallowed up by a political leviathan. In Trump’s craven pursuit of power, prestige, and the adulation of the crowds, the once poster boy for a lifestyle of pleasure-seeking and self-absorption that required legalized abortion for its own preservation, offered a deal to pro-lifers: Sell out to me and I’ll sell out to you. You’ll get everything you want if you give me everything I want.
Michael Spencer predicted the evangelical collapse… I had no idea it would happen this way, but it’s happening in front of us now. Not in terms of raw political power, but in every other area, american evangelicalism is a dead man walking…
So worship leader Daniel Deitrich leads the worship service at a church where you “you do not have to check your mind at the door”. How revealing and self righteous is that statement? I assume that IQ test or brain wave activity is part of the welcoming package at the church of the truly enlightened.
I don’t think it has anything to do with IQ, or the idea that Trump-voters are deficient in intelligence. I think he meant you are allowed to have your own mind at his church, not the hive-mind of the church majority walking in lock-step.
My antipathy of 4T5 has somewhat in a small way to do with my “religious preferences”, but mostly to do with the fact that the president is a VILE person and unfit for the office.
But Deitrich is addressing the community of evangelicals because it is his community, the one he grew up in and has loved, and now has been deeply disappointed by in this matter. If they had been at least as deeply divided in their political loyalties as Catholics, instead of marching in near lock-step when it came to voting, there is a good chance that the election would not have had the same results. And it is the near unanimity of their support for this man in the election, and their continuing support despite his disgustingly un-Christlike demeanor and behavior, that has no doubt made Deitrich feel like an stranger in his own home.
I dislike the man, and wish never to hear his name again, but the majority of Catholics, and many mainline Protestants as well, voted for him along with white evangelicals. That is very sadly true.
For the second time the above link will perhaps shed some light on the 2016 election that never breaks thought the mainstream media narrative. Look at the numbers yourself and see the decline in support that HRC got from white Catholics (-5%), Hispanic Catholic (-8%) mainline Protestant (-3%) other faiths -12%) it shows that the self identified evangelicals could not have elected Trump alone. Trump got 81% of the white evangelical in 2016 versus 78% the Romney got in 2012, the 3% increase is new voters who did come out and vote for a change. 78% for Mormon Romney in 2012 shows the evangelicals voted on issues important to them overcoming their religious preference. My sister struggled to vote for Romney but she did eventually on the issues. The media and drumbeat about the evangelical support for Trump being a mindless , faith based voted started the night of the election to invalidate and deride the legitimate election of Trump, it has never stopped. Facts are facts but the narrative that only the toothless, mindless, great unwashed evangelicals elected Trump is just news slanting . Just check out the history of family border separation and follow the facts. The majority of Americans not just evangelicals support Trump on immigration enforcement.
So worship leader Daniel Deitrich leads the worship service at a church where you “you do not have to check your mind at the door”. How revealing and self righteous is that statement? I assume that IQ test or brain wave activity is part of the welcoming package at the church of the truly enlightened.
President Trump has a solid record of accomplishment on trade issues, certainly the economy, the rebuilding of our military strength, NATO issues, immigration enforcement, support to law enforcement, 2nd amendment issues, religious liberty issues including abortion issue and a rational America first mindset. Now if Mr. Deitrich and many others do not agree with President Trump on the issue that is fine and that is why we have elections. If they want to cite the 81% percent of evangelicals who voted for Trump as voting against their “religion” that is their right to make the point. Many in the evangelical in 1960 voted not their religious conviction or faith to support the Catholic JFK, many of the evangelical faith urged them to vote on their religion only.
Trump voter know he is a Christian like 85 percent of Americans and accept him for what he is . The obvious choice is the completely secular Democrats who can stand on their own records to all people of all faiths and beliefs. My one question is this song part of the worship service? I assume that it is and that of course if fine. Like any meeting of faith based people this song will be preaching to the choir to validate their views just as many evangelical leader support Trump, that is part of our political /social and culture system except the news coverage and commentary from the gate keepers of public opinion is extremely slanted. Jefferies bad, Dietrich good.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Does anyone have a transcript of the lyrics?
Or an online source for them?
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If you are pro abortion,pro gay marriage or vote Democrat, then you are Not Born Again
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Peccadillos nothing, the guy was a full-honk womanizer.
All the Kennedy sons were pushed into politics by their father, who was a real piece of work.
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“Alabaster-colored Kosovars” would NOT be White under Scientific Racism.
Kosovo is in the Balkans, and anyone from Slavic lands wasn’t White.
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Jesus Christ has become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Trump, Inc.
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Virtue-signaling “I’m not political, I’m SPIRITUAL”…
while first they come for the Jews.
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No, though some of them are brainwashed. Parts of evangelical Christianity resemble a cult. As does Trump-worship. The LA Times knocked the ball out of the park here: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-01-10/donald-trump-cult-steven-hassan-moonie
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I agree.
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Abortion. It’s all they care about. Unfortunately.
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You’ve hit a lot of nails on the head. (So does this song, imho.) The evangelical movement is in deep trouble, I think: it’s certainly entered the political arena, as well as broken up many families and supported a President so immoral, untrustworthy and outrageous that he’s facing impeachment as I write. The song instantly spoke to me – a London-based American who worships at a United Reform Church (what in the US is called Congregationalist). In fact, my minister SENT it to me – anyway, it spoke to me so deeply that I can’t stop playing it and – to be entirely honest – not normally my kind of music, as I am a professional classical musician. But what he’s done is to describe the agony of people like myself, once very close to her sister, but that sister’s swallowing all of Trump’s misdemeanors, in the (utterly wrong) belief that he, the great hypocrite, is a Christian has wrecked all that … Yes, ‘I’m trying to love you now’. But in the face of such virulence and hatred as Trump’s, it’s not easy. If she was to ‘come home’ the tragedy of my life would be healed …The song has an apparent simplicity that belies its true power. I can’t thank Dan enough. He has written my song!!!!
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Well. that’s the corner into which you’ve painted yourself. I wonder just how far you would go with this one issue.
My feeling is that Trump doesn’t care one way or the other about pro-life issues. He only cares about winning.
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Thank you for posting this.. I (almost) never post anything to Facebook, but I feel that this captures my own feelings so well that I couldn’t resist. It will be interesting to see if I have any friends left other than my immediate family…
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Yes, you’re right !
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“Winning isn’t everything. Winning is the only thing.”
— attr to Vince Lombardi (but originated by another football coach, Red Sanders)
“The Winner is never asked whether he has won fairly, only that he has Won.”
— Adolf Hitler (Fuehrerbefehl to the German Armed Forces on the invasion of Russia)
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Reads like Eagle’s regular troll, minus the hymn refrain between talking points of “Thank You Donald Trump”.
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And that justifies the rest of the package deal?
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TWELVE million.
Six million Jews, six million goyisha Untermenschen.
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–> ” The only pure truth you will hear is from me.”
I truly hope tongue was firmly planted in cheek when writing that…LOL.
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lead us not into trumpnation but deliver us from upheaval
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FOUND THE LINK!
https://thewayofimprovement.com/2020/01/10/an-open-letter-to-christians-who-love-bonhoeffer-but-still-support-trump/
Referencing:
http://eerdword.com/2020/01/10/your-bonhoeffer-moment/
Money quote:
Here are a few examples of how Protestant Christian leaders in Germany spoke about God’s role in Hitler’s accession to power:
• “With National Socialism an epoch in German history has begun that is at least as decisive for the German people, as for example the epoch of Martin Luther.”
• “No one could welcome January 30, 1933 more profoundly or more joyfully than the German Christian leadership.”
• “Adolf Hitler, with his faith in Germany, as the instrument of our God became the framer of German destiny and the liberator of our people from their spiritual misery and division.”
• “[Hitler is] the best man imaginable, a man shaped in a mold made of unity, piety, energy and strength of character.”
• “[Hitler], the most German man, is also the most faithful, a believing Christian. We know that he begins and ends the course of his day with prayer, that he has found in the Gospel the deepest source of his strength.”
• “If the German who truly believed in Jesus could find the Spirit of the kingdom of God anywhere, he could find it in Adolf Hitler’s movement.”
• “In the pitch-black night of Christian church history, Hitler became like a wonderful transparency for our time, a window through which light fell upon the history of Christianity.”
• “[God has granted us an] hour of grace . . . through Adolf Hitler.”
• “God has once again raised his voice in a singular individual.”
Compare these statements with those made in recent months by American charismatic and evangelical leaders:
• “God raised up . . . Donald Trump” (Michelle Bachman).
• “God has righteously chosen [Trump] to affect the way that this nation goes forward” (Chuck Pierce).
• “Donald Trump represents a supernatural answer to prayer” (James Robison).
• “God had raised up [Trump] for such a time as this” (Stephen Strang).
• “Donald Trump actively seeks God’s guidance in his life” (James Dobson).
• Trump’s victory “showed clear evidence of ‘the hand of God’ on the election” (Franklin Graham).
• “[Trump is] a bold man, a strong man, and an obedient man” (Kenneth Copeland).
• “I see this as a last-minute reprieve for America, and the Church” (Rodney Howard-Browne).
• “[Trump] does look like he’s the last hope” (Phyllis Schlafly).
• “God was raising up Donald Trump as He did the Persian king Cyrus the Great” (Lance Wallnau).
• “[Trump is] a man of faith . . . truly committed to making America great again through principles that honor God rather than defy Him” (Stephen Strang).
• “In the midst of . . . despair, came November the 8th, 2016. It was on that day . . . that God declared that the people, not the pollsters, were gonna choose the next president of the United States. And they chose Donald Trump” (Robert Jeffress).
• “We thank God every day that He gave us a leader like President Trump” (Robert Jeffress).
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“Mistah Kurtz. — he dead.” Heart of Darkness, Joseph Conrad
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Yours is a common experience for Americans who find themselves in the third world.
It’s hard to imagine anything other than what we take for granted in our gated Elysium.
It makes me think of Colonel Walter E. Kurtz upriver (Apocalypse Now):
“…The Horror… The Horror…”
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I think there has been a change for the worse, Chaplain Mike. The division is more ‘open’ and more intense.
Maybe it’s the ‘trial’ that set this off, but there has definitely been a change.
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are you a russian bot ?
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You can look but you better not touch!
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Yep. The two powers-that-be make it really difficult on us moderates…LOL.
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You are right, I should not have said U6, I should have said “Labor Participation Rate.” Good catch, but still, the LPR also includes folks who choose for whatever reason to not work so it is NOT an real measure of “unemployment,” for example it includes the able bodied retired, stay at home spouses (one of things the radical religious right really, really wants women to do). So the 37% does not mean much. 🙂
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That an administration lawyer could argue that toothbrushes and soap are not necessary care for interned children is just incredible. Yet that’s what she argued.
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In the meantime nearly three dozen American soldiers suffered brain trauma injuries (half of them still not returned to work) as a result of his scuffle with Iran, despite his claim that he was only stepping back from the brink because no Americans were injured or killed in the Iranian missile attack. Pure bullshit. Or maybe since they weren’t bone spurs the injuries don’t count.
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Don’t worry, they are no longer a nuclear threat!
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Mangled blockquotes!
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I’ve never been good at stockpiling resources, even a little bit of them. If things turn into the scenario you refer to, I suppose it will just be time to die — and hope in the resurrection….
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Trump has never once “confronted” Russia. He fawns all over Putin and believes Putin rather than the American intelligence community. That is a fact, Dan. And we achieved energy independence under Obama. Your other points have *some* truth to them – what I’d say is that Trump is actually no better than previous presidents on the foreign policy score, either.
Yes, let the voters decide. And whatever they decide, put not your trust in princes, in man, in whom there is no salvation. Christians have expected way too much from every president from Bush #1 on. Our witness to Christ is trashed because of Evangelicals’ support of Trump, no matter how they justify it.
Dana
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So where are the strong?
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony…
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I swallowed hard and voted for Hillary. it made me sick at heart. But as we have seen with our own eyes there is worse than the Clintons. Before it’s over I’m going to bet the Republicans will wish she had won too.
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Or if they do agonize, it’s caveated so massively (abortion, Hillary, ad inf) as to be practically not very agonized.
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Whipsawing between empty threats and fawning accomodation is indeed new. Can’t say it’s better.
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Yeah. I just don’t like being pidgeon-holed. I don’t feel so easily defined as that but even more importantly I’m not sure who and what all is represented by that phrase so I’d rather not settle for being associated with them. I’m not completely oblivious or unaware of the fact that some of my thinking would be in lockstep but there are many ways in which I go askew from what I think is represented there. Politically I am no longer Republican. I’m going Independent. Keep my options open.
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I’m all for out-of-the-box thinking and contemplating oxymorons, but can you describe a case where mercy is more severe than punishment? (Just trying to figure that one out!)
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–> “Many of us agonize.”
I think the problem most of us Christians who are non-Trumpers have is: We don’t hear or see a lot of Evangelicals who ARE agonizing. And that’s why you hear and see a lot of us being vocal about the pro-Trump Evangelicals here at iMonk. Where is their agonizing? Where are their “held noses”?
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Trump on the dictator of N Korea: ‘he wrote me beautiful letters, we fell in love’
some confrontation, you bet
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I really think the damage would have been less.
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I voted Green Party in ’16. In retrospect I would swallow hard and vote HRC.
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Mule, I had a similar experience in Haiti around 1995. I was helping to conduct a swine production seminar for Haitian academics at the U in Port au Prince. A meal of rice and chicken was provided. When I finished eating I asked what to do with my chicken bones–there was not a waste container present–and was told to pitch them behind me into the grass, which I did. Immediately several children scrambled for and competed for my chicken bones. Plenty of food was available to we who were at the seminar. I couldn’t allow those children to go unfed…
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David Greene , well explained, thanks
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touch the hem of his 3K silk suit
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did anyone ever consider that the ‘christian hive’ might have served another ‘master’
at least Trump’s evangelicals are open about it
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C.M. fora lot of us conservative Evangelicals there are only two choices; Trump or basically don’t vote. Many of us agonize.
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like the Nazis . . . with six million corpses to witness to their ‘efficiency’
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+1
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Good points Beakerj. Agreed.
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https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080415/true-unemployment-rate-u6-vs-u3.asp
(7.7 still ? 37.)
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–> ” I’m not sure what I am but I ain’t that.”
I think many of us here are in the same boat. Maybe post-Evangelical non-progressives…?
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There has been no need though, to separate children from families.
Or to do it in such a way that there is no way of administratively linking them to their families to reunite them.
Or to deny them basic necessities such as toothbrushes, soap etc.
Or, of the love of all that is holy, to see tiny children, tiny little children, expected to defend themselves all alone in immigration courts.
All of these things should never had to happen, no matter all the other arguments regarding immigration, this is the work of monsters. Pro-life? What a joke.
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In the words of the Archdruid – “Collapse now. Avoid the rush.”
Honestly, re-reading Peggy Noonan’s essay from 2004 the link to which you posted confirmed a feeling I’ve had for some time. Of the people who ‘matter’ in our sad world, a significant fraction have already resigned themselves to a ‘free-market die-off’ scenario for the mid future, and they are busy stockpiling resources for what they view as inevitable.
The problem with planning for a collapse of this magnitude is that Black Swan events like the election of Donald Trump become more frequent and more powerful in their disruption. I notice that the Archdruid’s compadre, Dmitry Orlov, recently had his “5 stages of collapse” republished:
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‘Stop judging. Hypocrisy.’
Oh, the irony.
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How about you set that example for us all Stbndct, & show yourself as an extraordinarily Godly man who seeks God far more than he praises Trump?
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Abortion rates decline when conception rates decline.
These decline when there is good, solid sex education which ensures that young people (all people) understand their bodies, & how babies are conceived, plus how to prevent that happening through good contraception education & provision, including abstinence/celibacy if they hold to a faith position.
Rates of conception also decline when women have a more equal position in society, relationships & in marriage, & where sex is not something that ‘happens to them’ (which is a form of rape) that they have no control over. Overall, many of those going for abortions currently are married, & already have some children, they just haven’t managed to prevent unwanted conception.
Where these- sex ed, equality, contraception – are missing the conception rate goes up, & with it the rate of abortion. It’s why de-funding places like Planned Parenthood are counterproductive because long-term they help to reduce the ‘need’ for abortion, plus provide a lot of other obstetric.gynaecological services to women that have nothing to do with termination.
I thrashed this all out morally years ago & is why I have done 20 years in all, but certainly the last 15 years teaching basic anatomy, how conception & implantation happen, & contraception methods to the young people I have worked with, as part of my job. I’ve also supplied contraception & taken young people to sexual health clinics. I realised pretty early on that you can’t expect non-Christians to live like Christians, & that not giving access to contraception doesn’t stop them having sex. They just have unprotected sex, which, as I never tire of saying, is how you get pregnant when you’re trying to.
Conception has fallen in the age ranges I work with in the UK over the last 10 years for these reasons, & with it, abortion.
I’m really anti-abortion, except in the cases of maternal/foetal risk, gross foetal disease or disorder, incest, rape or similar because the mother is a person too, & deserves help. I have no idea why those who claim to be anti-abortion the loudest are also often the most active in ensuring that women have no way of preventing unwanted conception – & somehow men are always left out of the responsibility equation.
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Like it or not, DT’s become a focus and flashpoint.
And Evangelical Trump Worship (from the same guys who sin-sniffed “IDOLATRY!” in everything else) is the latest Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.
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Don’t forget “…Unless My Tribe Wins!”
(Overturn Roe v Wade… Prayer Back in Schools… Get Rid of Those Homos… Barton histories… CHRISTIAN NATION!)
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That’s been Eagle’s and my angle on the whole situation. How is it that Born-Again Christians are THE most fanatical of Trump Fanatics?
If their “Gift of Discernment” cannot “discern” between Donald Trump and Jesus Christ, why should I trust anything they say or claim?
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Where I am (“Del Norte”, the Mexican border region of the US Southwest), ethnicity has always been defined by language (English or Spanish?) more than color. In a way, language & culture is a more understandable dividing point than ethnicity/race. With language comes an accompanying culture.
In SoCal we have three main cultural roots:
1) “Del Norte”, with Spanish colonial culture influence by way of Mexico (and Mexico’s history reads as one long tragedy).
2) “The Left Coast”, a culture parodied by Portlandia under a Woke-ocracy I think you once described as “New England Puritans, seven times distilled down to eliminate any hint of God-talk while retaining all the Righteousness and Moral Fury”.
3) “The Far West”, from Westward Expansion frontier culture, familiar to anyone who’s viewed a lot of classic Westerns.
Now Far West + Del Norte I can handle; that’s a border culture and border pidgin language you always get where two cultures and languages butt up against each other. But Far West + Left Coast is not only an explosive mixture, but hypergolic. With Yugoslav levels of tribalism-unto-death.
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Chaplin Mike, I am old enough to remember when the catch phrase was safe, legal and rare, that is one example of a slippery slope. Could there be a day when gov’t /society decrees to a woman that an abortion is mandatory for economic well being of the general society like China with one child policy? Our political choice is a party of unrestrictive abortion or one that at least urges restraint on the issue at the least as full ban will never happen. Safe, legal and rare was a slogan but at least it showed some sense of the serious nature of the issue that is life or death for the child waiting to be born.
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“The “American Way of Life” as it has been defined for my lifetime is about to come under some severe strains in the lifetime of my children and grandchildren. Indeed, most of the static in our political system is because the stress is already there. Our political system doesn’t work anymore for most of the people who live here, and everyone’s looking for the reason.”
And the solution. Can we learn to accommodate, to share, to accept decline gracefully? Or will we tear ourselves to shreds fighting over the scraps? Preliminary results do NOT show promise. 😦
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Mercy can be more severe than punishment, sometimes.
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Dana and others, In Nov 2020 we will see what the American jury of voters think of Trump’s record . I know you not at all but based on what little I have read of your comments here I would never dream you would hate evangelicals or anyone based on their faith, some things need not be said. Your analysis of Trump achievements is your analysis and opinion based on what you have gathered to be the factual truth . I think Trump’s achievement record for 3 years has been great. We all need to look at the facts not rhetoric and make our decision. I give you credit for discernment and making considered decisions, do I come across as ill informed or a cheerleader oblivious to the facts.
No other President has confronted China, North Korea, Russia and Iran in the manner Trump has for example. President Nixon and all the establishment professionals who have given us the Middle East never ending wars, made China a super power by our own actions, enabled N. Korea to produce a nuclear arsenal (with the great help of China), allowed the middle class and working class wages to go dormant while we import cheap labor to enrich the rich. How about NATO and the free ride since 1990 actually 1945 Europe got. How about absolutely standing with the nation of the Never Again people to aid them in their struggle to survive. Energy independence alone is an achievement of great import. Just throwing out some foreign affairs bullets for thought. as you mentioned the list was mostly about the economy which usually decides the election.
We can all disagree and that is why we have elections.
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If we can’t change minds, we can at least point out the obvious. As Richard John Neuhaus once said, “If you can’t light a candle, a little measured cursing of the darkness is called for, if only to remind ourselves that we should not feel at home in it.”
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There are 6 official measurements of unemployment; U1 through U6. The U3 measure is the normally reported measurement and uses the number of unemployed who are actively looking for work and is the 3.8% rate. The 37% comes from U6, the labor force participation rate, and is based on all those who could work but are not so it includes those in U3 and those no longer looking for work and those retired who could work but choose not to, stay at home parents, and etc.
To keep it “apples to apples” U3 is used as the rate generally reported. You use U6, generally out of context, when you want to make someone look bad. They did it to Obama too. But as the population ages and life spans increase the U6 inevitably goes up. Heck I’m 68 and newly retired but I could still work if I chose so I am in U6.
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It didn’t come across offensively. I just wanted you to know that I’m not part of “you progressives“. I’m not sure what I am but I ain’t that.
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80 comments and counting. Must be a record for “Music Monday”. 😉
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Sonograms. It is a baby
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“Politics in spiritual places” is the problem? Isn’t that kinda what the song’s about?
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Stbndct, you and several others really need to tone it down. This is a blog about what it means to be post-evangelical and to process life from that perspective. How in the world can anyone express the post-evangelical mindset and viewpoint without dealing with the political realities we face here in the US.?
Daniel Deitrich’s song is a post-evangelical lament. It’s about the church abandoning the message of Jesus (as DD sees it), not about Trump. It is not about politics, but about what he believes is faithful Christian practice. It is about how the cross is our symbol, not the flag.
Agree with him or not, I can’t think of anything more appropriate for this blog.
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I’m sorry for any offense unduly given.
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I will add this. I was visiting Portland Oregon and there was a guy living on the street with a sign that said $10 minimum. We never spoke a word but we had a substantial conversation with our eyes. I said “you must be kidding, you cannot be serious”. He said, “What are you looking at?” Needless to say I did not give anything and if I had seen any stray fives or singles lying around him I would’ve picked them up. If you’re talking about people who want their means and their dignity to be handed to them on a SilverPlatter and then wish to be thanked for providing us that grand opportunity, then yes I am in your club. Another thing is I don’t have a lot of time for people that are out in the streets protesting what they don’t know (though I do think that has ebbed of late and people seem to be protesting some specific thing). Anyway, another progressive club I am not a part of. That to me is just killing time, making yourself feel important. The post here today is not that. I find it to be brave, specific, pointed, necessary and admirable.
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He does and He will.
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Just a couple of notes Muley. I can’t imagine you’re talking to me when you say “you progressives“. I say that tongue-in-cheek because I know that I am “progressive” in much of my thinking but I am really living on a bit of an island. I can’t name anyone in the clan except for the obvious politicos. I am not part of that club. In a very conservative Republican way, I am a business owner who has been working my tail off since 1982 and I have done my damnedest to save money for my retirement. I am generous in a quite natural way with money and possessions but have no interest in giving it to anyone except the people I wish to give it to. That is to say, if you force me to be generous, unduly, then I will have something to say because that’s not generosity at all. I’m happy to have what I have and would not want to be poor. Having said that I think I would manage because I have been poor in the past. I know how to live poor, though I’m guessing it would be a lot harder now than it was in my twenties. To wrap this point up I would say that I see all kinds of hysteria about the government co-opting all of our possessions through the crazy tax system but I don’t fear that because I think it’s just hysteria. The pendulum swings back-and-forth and we live our lives through it sometimes paying less and sometimes paying more. There’s nothing to get in a frenzy about.
Secondly, I have no interest in beating you about the head, you poor white stuff. I am as pasty white as you and I’m really neither proud nor ashamed of it. That’s what life handed me and I live it as best I can. My real concern is self actualization if you will, if I can get all psychological wit it. I simply want to make sure I live out the essence of the seed that Christ planted in me and have a life-giving affect in the world instead of a negative one. Whatever club that plants me in is determined, I suppose, by anyone other than me. As for me I am not paying dues to any fraternal order, right or left. I love my God, I love my wife and I want to share that love with anyone I come in contact with, as God gives this schmuck the grace to do it. That’s my cause and I’m stickin’ to it.
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Dan,
most of the items on that list have to do with the economy and jobs. Usually, economic and job trends show outcomes years after the ground work was laid for them. Therefore, Trump is reaping the benefits of what happened in the Obama years (whether Obama was directly responsible or not). Manufacturing in this country is up at a laughably small rate. Also, working class people are still not earning at the same level as they did were when you and I were teenagers. Trump in office hasn’t changed that at all.
And ask some farmers what they really think about the Trump trade policies. Reality is, those policies are costing all of us money. In the past, a lot of trade negotiations have included incentives to reduce human rights abuses around the world. Arguably the worst human rights abuser is China, but that doesn’t seem to matter to Trump.
It’s Congress – both parties – who deserves the blame for the immigration problem. They haven’t done much in three decades to solve it, and they’re the ones that make the laws.
The administration has had some influence on abortion funding, but it has been minimal. There are fewer abortions, but the reasons are sociological, not political. I don’t believe Roe v. Wade will be overturned, even if all the Supreme Court Justices were conservatives.
The only truly good thing Trump has done is to sign the criminal justice reform provisions into law. It’s been other people who have been responsible for anything good in his administration. Trump is a smart con man and a grifter, and only cares about 1) what he can get away with to advance his own brand, 2) his TV ratings and 3) the size of the crowds at his events. All you have to do is to listen to the words that come out of his mouth. I challenge you to ignore the spin and just listen to his exact words.
I did not vote for Hilary Clinton. I am not a registered Democrat – nor am I a registered Republican; I’m a “decline to state party”. I was an Evangelical for +30 years, and some of my dearest friends (and some of the most Christ-like people I know) are Evangelicals, so I don’t hate Evangelicals.
Dan
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Linguistic prejudice is more deeply engrained than pigment-based. The alabaster-colored Kosovars two doors down irk me more with their impenetrable babble than my English-speaking African American neighbors.
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Dan, you say that an anti-abortion person has but two choices. I do not think that is the case. It is a well-known fact that it has been under Democratic administrations that abortion rates have declined the most. I don’t know why that happens but some have suggested that perhaps it is because progressive people generally have a broader understanding of what it means to be fully pro-life. Abortion happens in a context. Many of the social justice issues that concern people with a more progressive perspective are about those contexts whereas conservatives don’t see things the same. That is the reason I am opposed to abortion but also think that it should be kept legal, safe, and accessible.
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“Symbolic” actions eclipsed reality some time ago.
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As it did to German Christians in the Thirties. Professor Fea’s blog had a link to that a week or two ago. Can’t link to it right now, but “Bonhoffer” was part of the title.
“I GOT MINE,
I GOT MINE,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE…”
— Glenn Frey, “I Got Mine” (a song about the indifference of those on top to the plight of those on the bottom)
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When your personal position and/or income depend on NOT comprehending something…
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That’s how it is with every movement out of which a revolution arises. And the outcome of the revolution is always immediately worse (and often as time goes on just as bad) than what it replaced.
Dana
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But he carries the Scarlet Letter “H” branded on his forehead.
The Ultimate OTHER and ENEMY of Christianese Culture Warriors.
(And with the default English pronunciation of his last name’s spelling, he must have had a rough time at school.)
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Another Trump advantage was his in-your-face confrontation manner and crude language.
Every other candidate except Feel-the-Bern Sanders talked like every word out of their mouth was written by attorneys and spin doctors, vetted through focus groups, and read word-for-word off the teleprompter. Anyone who came across as blunt and direct would have stood out.
Didn’t this used to be called “WHITES ONLY”?
(Which begs the question how narrowly you define “white”. Take a look at some Homeowners Association CC&R’s from the 1930s through 1950s (known as “Restricted Neighborhoods” at the time) to see who was and who wasn’t White. I do know under 19th Century Scientific Racism and Eugenics, I am NOT White.)
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Amen to this hymn and to its message. We need prophetic voices at times like this. May we hear more of them, and may we see the church return to its true identity and calling.
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https://www.whitehouse.gov/trump-administration-accomplishments/
Here is the WH talking points of accomplishments that 81% of evangelicals would find compelling enough to vote for overlooking the moral short comings of the President. How much of this list would HRC achieved or even try to if she were elected. This is more remarkable as that the full force of the establishment is fully Never Trumper and is entrenched. . I would call it a miracle but the age of miracles is over. Take the list for what its worth and research it . The only pure truth you will hear is from me.
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Well, Kennedy certainly had his peccadilloes, but that was in a day when they were hidden, not bragged about. At least he was reasonably competent administrator who seemed to care about the country and was hoping to give some vision in the Cold War days. I think Kennedy’s actual presidential record is mixed. There’s much more negative on DJT’s record.
Dana
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No, it was a crie du coeur.
I’ll take the lead. I would like to see detainment facilities set up that would not separate parties of immigrants, and that would be minimally comfortable. I understand that what would be unbearably spartan for middle-class Americans would be a step up for a lot of favela dwellers, but there is no sense in being needlessly cruel just to serve as a deterrent.
In South America, if your family doesn’t pay for you to eat in jail or bring you food, you starve or eat what you can catch . I guess here in America we will end up feeding and clothing them on a minimal level. Maybe the kinds of exploitative corporations involved in the prison industrial system would see this as a chance to expand their operations, but I would expect humanitarian opposition to this as well.
Working on a way to get them back to their points of origin after their asylum requests have been denied is also a point of contention. Lots of people fly in to Mexico, overstay their tourist visa, and head straight for El Norte. It isn’t fair to Mexico, really, to send these people back there.
The money could come from a rounding error in the Pentagon budget.
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–> “There is an old joke in the legal profession. By way of background, in a trial the jury is there to decide questions of fact, while the judge decides questions of law. So, the joke goes, if you are trying a case and you have the facts on your side, pound the jury with the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the judge with the law. If you don’t have either the facts or the law on your side? Pound the table with your fist. ”
I’ve been binging the old Law and Order show lately, and this plays out often!
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https://www.sba-list.org/trump-pro-life-wins
Chaplin Mike, of course difference of values is why we have different personal and political opinions . Would HRC if she won in 2016 approved any of the link attached actions that Trump supported for whatever reason? Would any of the 2020 Democrat contenders support any thing that full unrestricted abortion rights? So an anti abortion person of strong conviction has 2 choices , Trump, supporter for whatever reason or Democrat supporter of unrestricted abortion. That is the real choice. What value is more important? It is fine and as it should be if Dietrich wishes to use his faith position to advocate for his positions, I am sure he is working on a anti abortion song to coincide with his value system which translates into his political value system.
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–> “The words came to my mind ‘would you trade places with this man?’ That froze my blood. The first thing that came to my mind was ‘hell, no’ The response was almost immediate: ‘Why not? I did for you’. Even if the exchange was with my subconscious, it was a rattling encounter. I just don’t have the Holy Ghost power necessary for that kind of self-denial.”
This resonates with me a lot, Mule. I’ve had several of those subconscious pricks of the Spirit, and have ignored almost every single moment of self-denial. Perhaps the only two I HAVE obeyed were my initial response to His call to follow Him, and another instance too long to go into. But mostly, it’s just lower my head and pretend I didn’t hear Him. Like you said, it rattles you; there’s some shame in there.
Lord, please have mercy on me.
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–> “It is a sign of how contentious our times are that we can’t just acknowledge that and make it a point of conversation, not warfare.”
An extremely valid point. And unfortunately, Trump is so divisive that he sucks the fruit of the Spirit out of most Christians regardless of which side of the aisle they’re on.
Like I said, Lord Jesus, please have mercy on us all.
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“What should we do with the kids?”
The rhetorical ploy here is to pretend that there is no middle ground between putting kids in cases and having an open border.
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Chaplin Mike , Got it, , I poorly worded and explained myself in my post . I know that Schenck did not change his view on being anti abortion but re reading my own words that was represented. My thought about evolving on issues such as Schenck;s position on gun rights morphing into a change into other issues such as an adamant pro life stand, was what I was trying to get to. The right to life rally historically is well attended and all shades of religious differences, philosophy issues are laid aside for a day to defend the unborn children. Trump did not call the rally into order, no political grandstanding other that right to life issue was there for . The President of the USA was there to show support for the pro life movement. The reoccurring Pro Life labeling leads to a different set of values and issues than just protecting children from abortion. Plainly put , Trump’s participation did not add any greater support to the rally or the issue. Certainly Schenck and anyone can stand on their beliefs and principles , which he did If Bernie Sanders was speaking in support of restricting late term abortions by lawful legislation I would attend to advance the banning of late term abortion not to support Bernie Sanders. I never heard of Schenck before but now out of interest will be interested to where his evolution on issues takes him. Would Schenck want all those who attended , who are as anti abortion as him . to boycott the event as it could be taken as support of Trump , zero turnout? Just an unanswerable question to ponder.
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I find it hard to believe that you are really that uncomprehending. But, I’ve lived long enough to know that all things are possible. Take comfort, you are not alone. I have a fair number of evangelical friends who have also jettisoned their belief that character and Jesus’ words matter.
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This is something that constrains my heart. The “American Way of Life” as it has been defined for my lifetime is about to come under some severe strains in the lifetime of my children and grandchildren. Indeed, most of the static in our political system is because the stress is already there. Our political system doesn’t work anymore for most of the people who live here, and everyone’s looking for the reason.
When I was in Uruguay, which is a relatively prosperous South American country, I had abject poverty rubbed in my face for the first time. I remember talking about “the Gospel” with a desperate father in front of a cardboard shack The words came to my mind ‘would you trade places with this man?’ That froze my blood. The first thing that came to my mind was ‘hell, no’ The response was almost immediate: ‘Why not? I did for you’.
Even if the exchange was with my subconscious, it was a rattling encounter. I just don’t have the Holy Ghost power necessary for that kind of self-denial. If you progressives want to beat us comfortable white folk about the head with Jesus’ social ethics, by all means, take the lead. And no, voting to take my stuff away and spread it around doesn’t count.
Ain’t nothin’ stoppin’ you.
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“Facts are facts”?
A great economy?
“Trump may be a good president for the top 1% – and especially for the top 0.1% – but he has not been good for everyone else. If fully implemented, the 2017 tax cut will result in tax increases for most households in the second, third, and fourth income quintiles.”
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/grim-truth-about-trump-economy-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2020-01
_______________________
Highest rate of employment?
How is The Official Unemployment Rate 3.8% When 37% of the U.S is Unemployed?
View at Medium.com
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Heath insurance coverage?
“The number of uninsured nonelderly Americans decreased from over 46.5 million in 2010 (the year the ACA was enacted) to just below 27 million in 2016. However, for the second year in a row, the number of uninsured people increased from 2017 to 2018 by nearly 500,000 people.”
https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-brief/key-facts-about-the-uninsured-population/
_______________________
Increased military spending?
Yep, that’s a positive for Trumpistas–even when it means decreases in social welfare and infrastructure spending.
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Strangely enough it’s mostly a symbolic vote. “Infanticide” is the killing of children post-birth.
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Pete Buttigieg is a Christian and certainly speaks of it.
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I think we are at a moment of interest with this thing. Mark Galli lobbed a huge shell into it. A song like this is a truly 1960’s-ish expression of resistance to a questionable ethos accepted as status quo. It’s young people who will now begin following the rebellion, and taking it over, in droves, and rightly so. When you look back at the Catholic Church and wonder how it could have been that they engaged in grisly, anti-Christ things like the Spanish Inquisition, you only have to look at our day and age to see how power corrupts and distorts the most fundamental and otherwise unquestioned, uncontroversial tenets of the Christian faith. There are many modern day Christians who espouse ARMED (wait, what?) resistance and civil war as a necessity for protecting ….what? The Lord? Their way of life? Certainly armed conflict will shatter life as they know it but Jesus and beatitudes be damned. Onward Christian soldiers.
What I am encouraged by is things like this song and Mark Galli’s commentary. Life and love. Kindness and light. Like sprouts from the ground after winter inevitably arise with tenacity. This song is part of the bubbling water of an eventual fountain. It’s the first green shoot of a bean sprout that just doesn’t take no for an answer. Sorry if I’m overstating things but essentially I’m just saying that I’m pleased to see that despite the fact that they will face glares, stern and truly ugly accusations and bitter resistance from some of their brethren, people inside the fold are speaking out as has been hoped for.
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One of the simple reasons I put this song up today is to show that there are some evangelicals who are looking at things differently than those who populate the common narrative. It is a sign of how contentious our times are that we can’t just acknowledge that and make it a point of conversation, not warfare.
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Dan, you are missing the wholesale hypocrisy of evangelicals who once insisted with all their hearts that character matters. And our composer today is calling them out for missing Jesus’ message of justice, which is generally not a conservative strong point of emphasis. On that there is a genuine difference of opinion that should be discussed, realizing that conservatives and more progressive people look at some things from very different value foundations.
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Not much “fruit of the Spirit” here in the room today.
Lord Jesus, please have mercy on us all.
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Isn’t it remarkable how the evangelical collapse looks so much like victory to so many?
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Either Chesteron or Lewis (I think it was Chesterton) wrote once that in magical traditions it’s the Dark Forces/Dark Powers who have the reputation for Getting Things Done…
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Point missed, Dan. Schenck did not change his position on abortion. He merely did not want to attend a Trump campaign rally in the guise of the March for Life.
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Headless Unicorn Guy, Secular Trumpista, would be a promotion to me. How about someone who laid out some facts/issues pertaining to the article. that so far are unaddressed. Conflating my comments to w2guys on the vaunted Eagles blog gives me no reference point as the only eagle I know is Donovan McNabb. What is the problem of being a secular Trump supporter who wants his candidate to win? So how about the Dietrich song ? You may want to consult with the Eagle to see what you think. The only thing I know of the Eagle is that it landed in 1969.
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But she carries too much other baggage.
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“Remember the Coming Evangelical Collapse?
Well, this is it.”
But who cares as long as WE’re the ones on top?
“Before that can happen, make sure WE are the ones who define what is legal and what is not.”
— L Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology
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Sealion…?
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During my time in-country in the Seventies, the Christian Hive Mind in Groupthink Lock-Step was in full force. Just then it was Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick instead of Donald Trump.
And when consensus in a group reaches 80%, Groupthink locks in as The One True Way and all dissidents are Purged/Cleansed. This is why the 81% in 2016 was especially worth notice.
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Because The LORD’s Anointed (not Trump per se but his Evangelical Base) Can Do No Wrong.
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How about “Regular Trumpista Troll”?
Eagle’s blog has two of them. The real FANATIC of the two (“I give Donald Trump Praise and Adoration”) is quick with barrages of Chapter-and-Verse Proof Texts and Anathemas. As far as I can tell, he’s not a Poe but a True Believer.
“Why do the Kings of the Earth rage against The LOOOOOOORD and His Anointed”?
P.S. Your whole comment has the vibe of a secular Trumpista: “PWN THOSE LIBS! PWN THOSE LIBS! STICK IT TO ‘EM! STICK IT TO ‘EM! TRUMP! TRUMP! TRUMP!” That was the main vibe I got in 2016, when the disdain of Their Wokeness to the Lowborn hit critical mass. It had been building for decades and had to boil over sometime.
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That to a lot of Evangelicals, TRUMP IS LOOOOOORD.
Born-Again Bible-Believing Evangelical Christians are among the most FANATICAL of Trump Fanatics.
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As in “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE!”?
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It’s like they’ve Taken The Mark in a cheezy End Times novel/movie.
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“Trump and Pompeo were walking around La Valle with a paper grocery bag in one hand, grabbing asylum seekers with the other, holding the bag against their cheeks and gleefully tossing those who didn’t pass the test into cages while robed megachurch choirs sang in the background “Nearer my Trump to Thee?”
Seems about right — so what’s your point?
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Clay C. what is the point I missed? Since I missed it , now I am curious.? I would say point well taken but I do not get the point. When phrase I seldom read here if point of fact and it is okay to have different point of view .
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The joke is funny, but it obscures the basic question. What should we do with the kids? I have heard that Bush’s and Obama’s administrations separated kids from their relatives as well. I haven’t looked into that very closely but I am willing to entertain the idea. It’s hard to get any facts these days without a side order of outrage being added to the plate.
Latin Americans define family differently than we do. Kids who show up at the border accompanied by an older sibling or a cousin or a great aunt is defined as an “unaccompanied minor”. My son, during the last year of the Obama administration, worked for a company who operates some very sketchy “neglected child” shelters in the Southeast. American kids in cages, if you please. Now, my son couldn’t in good conscience continue to sign off on the treatment these kids were getting, so he quit, but not before trying to ‘blow the whistle’ to local media. It turned out that everybody knew these places were hell-holes but nobody gave a left-handed shit. No one was gonna take these problematic kids into their homes.
Now, according to my son, their parent company has won the contract to build border facilities for detained children. Sounds like a match made in hell.
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There is an old joke in the legal profession. By way of background, in a trial the jury is there to decide questions of fact, while the judge decides questions of law. So, the joke goes, if you are trying a case and you have the facts on your side, pound the jury with the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the judge with the law. If you don’t have either the facts or the law on your side? Pound the table with your fist.
Someone wants to talk about kids in cages? Change the subject, and pound the table about that.
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Perhaps we should let Dan Dietrich dictate immigration policy. /s
The whole song was about ‘kids in cages’. To listen to the majority narrative, you’d think Trump and Pompeo were walking around La Valle with a paper grocery bag in one hand, grabbing asylum seekers with the other, holding the bag against their cheeks and gleefully tossing those who didn’t pass the test into cages while robed megachurch choirs sang in the background “Nearer my Trump to Thee?”
Let’s leave aside the important fact that most of the illegal immigration to our country occurs because of overstayed tourist, student and other non-immigrant visas rather than fleet-footed brownies. What kind of immigration policy should we have? It’s obvious that what we have now isn’t working, and doesn’t make anybody happy. You have to deal with the reality that 1) these people are fleeing some horrific situations in their home countries. 2) they are going to arrive more quickly than you can process them 3) the states have no authority to create separate immigration policies, so my preferred Federalist solution ain’t gonna get off the ground here.
Maybe my old holy roller preacher was right. Christians have no place in politics. Politics is the business of protecting your interests over against the other guy, who is attempting to do the same thing, and according to him, “Christians shouldn’t have interests. A little food, a little clothing, a little shelter oughta be enough for us.”
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It was the immigration issue, pure and simple.
Nobody else wanted to touch it. Everybody knew ¡Yeb! was going to be pro-amnesty. Marco Rubio was suckered by Snake Schumer into co-sponsoring an unpopular immigration bill that took him out of consideration in the Republican primaries. Dyspeptic Ted Cruz came too late to the battle with too little, depending on the tattered ghost of Ronnie Reagan’s small government Republicanism to carry him to victory. After Donnie staked out the territory, he made the issue his own in a way that gave him a real boost among likely Republican voters.
Turns out those kinds of Republicans don’t want a small government after all. They want a government strong enough to keep the Spanish speakers ( and Hmong, and Albanian, and Amharic, and Hausa, and Burmese, and Tamil) out of their neighborhoods.
And if its strong enough to keep women from getting abortions, well, that’s just a plus, isn’t it?
We’re all neo-cons these days 😦
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It is the enthusiasm that is telling.
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For that matter, Hilllary Clinton is Methodist, and apparently pretty serious about it, though not in the “praying on street corners” way that so man Evangelicals take as a sign of authenticity.
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Maybe we should let Dan Dietrich dictate immigration policy. The whole song was about ‘kids in cages’. To listen to the majority narrative, you’d think Trump and Pompeo were walking around La Valle with a paper grocery bag in one hand, grabbing asylum seekers with the other, holding the bag against their cheeks and gleefully tossing those who didn’t pass the test into cages while robed megachurch choirs sang in the background “Nearer my Trump to Thee?”
Let’s leave aside the important fact that most of the illegal immigration to our country occurs because of overstayed tourist, student and other non-immigrant visas rather than fleet-footed brownies. What kind of immigration policy should we have? It’s obvious that what we have now isn’t working, and doesn’t make anybody happy. You have to deal with the reality that 1) these people are fleeing some horrific situations in their home countries. 2) they are going to arrive more quickly than you can process them 3) the states have no authority to create separate immigration policies, so my preferred Federalist solution ain’t gonna get off the ground here.
Maybe my old holy roller preacher was right. Christians have no place in politics. Politics is the business of protecting your interests over against the other guy, who is attempting to do the same thing, and according to him, “Christians shouldn’t have interests. A little food, a little clothing, a little shelter oughta be enough for us.”
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Point missed. Again. Dan, that curtain your evangelical cohort hides behind is morphing into a shroud and that’s a shame.
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81% of white evangelicals who voted, voted for Trump. Half of white evangelicals did not vote at all.
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Wow. Politics in spiritual places again. What did Jesus say about judging? And yet here it is. Sad. Before you keep judging please acquaint yourself with ALL the facts, e.g., the “cages” and separation started underneath the previous administration. And if you’re going to judge, how about looking at the parents who knowingly decide to break the law and endanger their kids? Yeah Trump is such a bad president — lowest unemployment (including minorities) inl decades, huge reduction of people below the poverty line and on aid, more new home starts, growing businesses and new jobs, all allowing more people to have what they need and reach the dream. Governments are NOT charitable institutions. Stop judging. Hypocrisy.
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It’s obvious that hammering the Evangelical right is not going to change any minds. There will be no “OMG what have we done?” moment.
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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rob-schenck-armor-of-light_n_5629261be4b0443bb5632005?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMizfxMd6YHfTYUZIKUWYQGEqNUNoB7Q00gEgwEZXJvxUh9joKYc7g65IKyexkITyKcwfCXS2-FZyGxoJ2-xfnA2inIn6sikdFuJ7G9J9zA32NPMrB9VzfriuMlFBaLHlM583hYoqOZF-sxzlNE-Idm05TchHl-WiFiKU6MBMqRu
Seems like this is a gradual, sincere change of heart starting with the 2 amendment issues . Like many Schenck is evolving on issues as per this original 2015 piece in the Huff Po. So , Schenck’s disapproval of Trump overrode his belief that abortion is a evil that must be confronted. I am hoping that Trump will come out in favor of strict climate change issues and then people will fall off that bandwagon (just a joke). So if Trump supports an issue, it must be opposed as Trump is worse than abortion. Who has done more to stop the number of abortions though their efforts Schenck or evil Trump? however Trump’s motive are not as pure as the correctly nuanced Schenck. Trump can do no good , pro abortion activist can do no wrong.
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I didn’t mean Chaplin Mike about approaching the Lord with intensity but all the commentators.
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The only way to get a lot of comments on this Christian blog is to mention Trump. To all the people who voted for Hillary did you think you were getting someone with fine Christian qualities ? I won’t even get into the Obama immigration policies which were just as bad. You progressives are going nuts because Trump will win re-election easily. Chaplin Mike, why don’t you have a Trump free lent this year and get this blog back where it needs to be. Trump has become your everyday obsession and it’s sad to see. If you approached the Lord with the same intensity who knows what may happen.
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Russian Bot- really how silly. Again goes to the point the Dems with their allies ,the mass media laid the ground work to discredit the lawful election immediately. The comment about religious preference escapes me as to meaning except to critique my communication skills. People will vote for a candidate that they disagree with on faith , who they may think vile but they agree with on the issues that matter to them. When you have to parse the meaning of someone else words about leaving your mind at the door than you have a problem. Why was this statement needed by Deitrich, other than to disparage anyone that may come to the service who disagrees with him, the closed minded 81%..
M. Spencer ‘s prediction was American evangelicalism is a dead man walking while accurate the description evangelical can be replace by American Catholic, Jewish, Mormon or whatever organized religion you chose and it would be true. America is becoming a nation of nones, as we all know, I believe, according to a hotel commercial this is called being Captain Obvious .
Fortunately for the Dems, President Trump own personal persona is his greatest and most damaging aspect. As per above comments, issues, policy results, accomplishments and real results are not discussed just the personal shortcomings, the “vileness” of Trump and the moral superiority of those who have the national platform to set the correct moral standards according to ? When Trump wins again , it will be interesting to see the election night analyst being baffled once again.
Just to ease your progressive minds, the demographics insure your blue state politics will prevail within the next few years as Tx. Ga Fl turn blue. Then we are California and NY as a nation forever blue and if I am still here I will certainly be blue also. It will be great especially if you are a relative of Joe Biden , a very special group that excel in making money though hard work and effort. Go Big Blue.
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Strangely enough a vote for DT is a vote against infanticie
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The Apostles counted a Zealot and a tax collector – a “Patriot”/”Terrorist” and a “Collaborator”/”Loyalist” – in their number.
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And the technical term for a dead man walking is “zombie”. And zombie apocalypses are very in vogue at the moment…
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And there were plenty of actual evangelicals in the Republican primaries. Trump blew them all out of the water. Whatever attracted evangelicals to him, it was NOT shared faith.
…or was it?
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It’s not just about who voted for DT. It’s about who continues to make the Faustian bargain of supporting DT, often enthusiastically. As Pastor Rob Schenck wrote, for example, about why he chose not to attend the recent March for Life:
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Michael Spencer predicted the evangelical collapse… I had no idea it would happen this way, but it’s happening in front of us now. Not in terms of raw political power, but in every other area, american evangelicalism is a dead man walking…
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I don’t think it has anything to do with IQ, or the idea that Trump-voters are deficient in intelligence. I think he meant you are allowed to have your own mind at his church, not the hive-mind of the church majority walking in lock-step.
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Now, what does it say about persons who vote for a VILE candidate?
(Hint, there is more than one response.)
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My antipathy of 4T5 has somewhat in a small way to do with my “religious preferences”, but mostly to do with the fact that the president is a VILE person and unfit for the office.
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Joe Biden is Christian. As far as I can see, his bona fides in that department are far greater than Trump’s have ever been.
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“…evangelicals voted on issues important to them overcoming their religious preference.”
That part of the sentence is revealing, especially “religious preference.”
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But Deitrich is addressing the community of evangelicals because it is his community, the one he grew up in and has loved, and now has been deeply disappointed by in this matter. If they had been at least as deeply divided in their political loyalties as Catholics, instead of marching in near lock-step when it came to voting, there is a good chance that the election would not have had the same results. And it is the near unanimity of their support for this man in the election, and their continuing support despite his disgustingly un-Christlike demeanor and behavior, that has no doubt made Deitrich feel like an stranger in his own home.
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I dislike the man, and wish never to hear his name again, but the majority of Catholics, and many mainline Protestants as well, voted for him along with white evangelicals. That is very sadly true.
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are you a russian bot?
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https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/
For the second time the above link will perhaps shed some light on the 2016 election that never breaks thought the mainstream media narrative. Look at the numbers yourself and see the decline in support that HRC got from white Catholics (-5%), Hispanic Catholic (-8%) mainline Protestant (-3%) other faiths -12%) it shows that the self identified evangelicals could not have elected Trump alone. Trump got 81% of the white evangelical in 2016 versus 78% the Romney got in 2012, the 3% increase is new voters who did come out and vote for a change. 78% for Mormon Romney in 2012 shows the evangelicals voted on issues important to them overcoming their religious preference. My sister struggled to vote for Romney but she did eventually on the issues. The media and drumbeat about the evangelical support for Trump being a mindless , faith based voted started the night of the election to invalidate and deride the legitimate election of Trump, it has never stopped. Facts are facts but the narrative that only the toothless, mindless, great unwashed evangelicals elected Trump is just news slanting . Just check out the history of family border separation and follow the facts. The majority of Americans not just evangelicals support Trump on immigration enforcement.
So worship leader Daniel Deitrich leads the worship service at a church where you “you do not have to check your mind at the door”. How revealing and self righteous is that statement? I assume that IQ test or brain wave activity is part of the welcoming package at the church of the truly enlightened.
President Trump has a solid record of accomplishment on trade issues, certainly the economy, the rebuilding of our military strength, NATO issues, immigration enforcement, support to law enforcement, 2nd amendment issues, religious liberty issues including abortion issue and a rational America first mindset. Now if Mr. Deitrich and many others do not agree with President Trump on the issue that is fine and that is why we have elections. If they want to cite the 81% percent of evangelicals who voted for Trump as voting against their “religion” that is their right to make the point. Many in the evangelical in 1960 voted not their religious conviction or faith to support the Catholic JFK, many of the evangelical faith urged them to vote on their religion only.
Trump voter know he is a Christian like 85 percent of Americans and accept him for what he is . The obvious choice is the completely secular Democrats who can stand on their own records to all people of all faiths and beliefs. My one question is this song part of the worship service? I assume that it is and that of course if fine. Like any meeting of faith based people this song will be preaching to the choir to validate their views just as many evangelical leader support Trump, that is part of our political /social and culture system except the news coverage and commentary from the gate keepers of public opinion is extremely slanted. Jefferies bad, Dietrich good.
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