Before you read this post, I want to ask you to read two interviews with Joel Osteen and the first part of his book.
The first is at Beliefnet.com. The second is at FaithfulReader.com.
Here is the book excerpt at Amazon.
Here is a long excerpt from the first chapter of Your Best Life Now at Parable.com
Here are Osteen sermons. (Check dates. More recent ones reflect the concerns of this post.) Also, this is the closest thing we can find to a Confession of Faith.
Update 16: Here is Osteen’s recent apology for his interview on Larry King, where he did exactly what I told you he does. Included are my recations. And here is a long letter from Bob Ross at Pigrim Publications, who says Osteen is personally committed to the Gospel. I have no trouble with that. It’s his books, sermons and STATUS that are the problems.
Update 15: Here’s a commenter at the BHT defending Osteen and calling me out as too rash.
Update 14: The Detroit News Feature story. They are right on target: A New Age Gospel of Motivational Messages.
Update 13: Best Osteen post ever. Alex Arnold. Thank you, Alex.
Update 12: 2/7/05 I have decided to close the comment threads on the Osteen posts. Thanks to all who have commented, and I hope raising this issue has contributed to a better understanding of Mr. Osteen and what he represents in American Christianity.
Go directly to the “Outing Osteen” post.
UPDATE: The Faithful Reader site went down for a while. So just in case that interview may disappear, here’s the cached copy of the page.
UPDATE 2: I have made a list of all the current Osteen resources I could find in 20 pages of googling. I will add to the list.
UPDATE 3: Should I be seeking personal reconciliation with Osteen according to Matthew 18?
UPDATE 4: My response to some BHT questions, including my speculation about why Osteen won’t name books or influences in interviews.
UPDATE 5: It’s been quite a weekend. Record traffic. Biggest month in IM history, mostly off the last two days. Some wonderful blog posts have been forwarded to me. Thanks to everyone. This post on the Sacraments at Lakewood is a good one. (I am not about debating theology with Osteen. I don’t hear any theology from him. What is said at his web site or from the phone center is not what you will read in Osteen’s book.) Things are happening. Stay tuned.
UPDATE 6: My response to the objection “You should never criticize people who are winning others to Christ.” From a longer IM essay on Criticism.
UPDATE 7:Here’s another answer to a commenter: Is Osteen Ok for those who already know the Gospel, and just need a lift?
UPDATE 8: A MUST READ! Tim Challies does the grunt work of comparing the rhetoric of New Ager Marianne Williamson and motivational speaker Tony Robbins with Rick Warren. Why post that here? Do you need to ask? I said it at the BHT: There is a reason Osteen doesn’t name books and influences. Could this be why?
UPDATE 9 Osteen on MSNBC 2/1/05. He’s ok with being called a motivational speaker. Meanwhile, Michael Horton says what Osteen’s message really is: Fortune cookies.
UPDATE 10: Relevant scripture, and a story where “There really is a cliff!”
UPDATE 11: Amazon.com reviews of Osteen’s book, compiled by Byron Harvey. Also, Get Religion’s Osteen piece.
And for those who don’t care for what I am up to here, try this and this. Someone asked me if I wanted to pastor 30,000? Any church that cannot provide a meaningful interaction between pastor/elders and the entire congregation, in the homes of the members, regularly, personally, is too big. Megachurch numbers don’t represent churches, but denominations that gather in one room occasionally. I say this to everyone from Piper to whomever: Keep it small enough for shepherds to know the sheep.
UPDATE 12: Many excellent posts are out there, but few better than the BHT’s Richard. Updated: Tim Challies does a 5 star post on Osteen. Thanks, Tim. Updated again: Razorkiss has one of the best posts I’ve read. Very good information and quotes.
This is the pastor of America’s largest church. This will soon be the leading spokesperson for evangelical Christianity. This is the face and voice that will be heard speaking for the heirs of the Reformation. If you missed Jesus and the Gospel entirely, it’s because they weren’t there.
I want to know if anyone thinks we ought to try speaking up about this, at least once.
For those who haven’t heard the story, it goes like this.
John Osteen starts Lakewood Church. Osteen is a Baptist preacher, Texas style, who’s gone Pentecostal/Charismatic. The church grows to 10,000 members. Osteen preaches the Gospel, preaches missions, and is a respected “classic” Pentecostal/Charismatic leader. He isn’t, however, preparing for what happened next.
He died suddenly. Pentecostal churches the size of Lakewood are usually family dynasties, but Osteen didn’t lay the groundwork for his succession. His wife preaches for a while, and then his son Joel, who had been working with (I believe) the church’s media ministries. In other words, behind the scenes, apparently not planning to be pastor.
Joel tries out the pulpit. He’s not much of a preacher at first. He’s nervous, but the congregation is cheering for him. He’s cute, appealling and, eventually, funny. He’s got a beautiul wife. He’s charming, and tells a good story. He’s disarmingly vulnerable. He makes you feel good. He’s not like the usual ranting, angry preachers. He’s a nice guy.
Before long, Joel is comfortable in the role of pastor, and the church begins to grow. He’s preaching the usual word-faith stuff and things go well. But then Joel changes his emphasis….and things explode. In fact, in just over a decade, it triples to 30,000 and becomes the largest church in America. They buy the Compaq Center, former home of the NBA Houston Rockets. 18,000 seats. He’s on TBN, PAX and CNBC overseas.
What happened? Joel makes a remarkable shift away from his father’s style of more traditional Pentecostal/Charismatic preaching. He becomes a positive thinker- Peale and Schuller style. A preacher of “think positive and be blessed” principles. Prosperity preaching, but not with some tangled version of the Gospel at the center like so many on TBN (take Kenneth Copeland as an example.) It’s “have a better attitude and be blessed” motivational talks that have no relation to the essentials of the Christian Gospel. You rarely hear any theology or Gospel preaching. God is good and wants to bless you. Period. That’s it. Instead, Osteen’s messages are about “God’s Favor” on marriage, finances and career. Sin is never mentioned. In well over 25 hours of preaching that I listened to this year, Jesus was almost never mentioned, and when he was mentioned, it was in a perfunctory prayer in the last minute. Sin, the Cross, the atonement? Not there.
Osteen preaches about positive thinking, being blessed, resurrecting dreams and taking risks. His book is called “Your Best Life Now.” Despite endorsements from at least one preacher who supposedly understands the Gospel, the message of the Cross of Jesus Christ isn’t the focus of Osteen’s message- ever. It’s positive thinking. Good advice for people who need a lift relationally or financially. It’s the message of a good God who wants to bless you with a bigger house, a better job and, of course, a better attitude.
This Joel Osteen, a young man who stumbled into his father’s shoes, now is the most successful pastor in America, and will soon be a best selling author, seen and heard around the world standing in a pulpit, preaching pragmatic positive thinking, pure and simple, out of an open Bible. He will represent evangelicalism with his big smile and a message that would make Screwtape shout “Amen! Preach it brother.”
This is where evangelicalism has come to in 2005. This is what the heirs of the Reformation have come to accept as acceptable. This is what can be endorsed and advertised to evangelicals and be sure to sell millions of copies.
It makes me angry and I want to do something.
I have a simple question.
Is this going to happen with the silence of evangelicals, or will someone speak up? Will Osteen continue his arc to fame and leadership with little or no comment from those in evangelicalism who have the responsiblity of discernment? Are we going to sit still and just shake our heads, or might we do more?
I wonder how many of our churches are already populated by Osteen fans. How many deacons, elders, teachers and worship leaders are enamored with the adorable Osteen and his positive message? How many young people are going to be pointed to Osteen as a true shepherd of Jesus Christ? I know a lot of people in my world are lining up for the Osteen message as if he were just another version of Rick Warren. He’s not. He’s not one of us.
Make no mistake about this: Osteen isn’t confused about Jesus like many of the prosperity preachers you hear on TBN. Osteen is intentionally avoiding irrtiating language about sin because he wants to keep it positive every week. He is not just avoiding mentioning Jesus, the cross and the Gospel just because he is seeker sensitive. Joel Osteen is preaching the no-Gospel, no-Jesus message because it’s filling the church with thousands of people who want to hear it. Osteen will ignore his critics because the common people are voting every week- in book sales, ratings numbers and attendance- for his message.
At the biggest church in the country, Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, Pastor Joel Osteen preaches to some 25,000 people each week — and sin is not on the menu. Osteen said his goal is to “give people a boost for the week.”
“I think for years there’s been a lot of hellfire and damnation. You go to church to figure out what you’re doing wrong and you leave feeling bad like you’re not going to make it,” Osteen said. “We believe in focusing on the goodness of God.”
Osteen defends Lakewood’s ways, saying the lively and inclusive atmosphere is attracting a whole new generation of parishioners.
“I have parents tell me all the time that their kids will sit down and watch us on TV or that they want to come to the service because it’s simple and something they can understand,” he said.
Some Lakewood qualities that appeal to a younger set are “the best lighting and the best sound system,” a youth ministry program that attracts hundreds, and every service kicks off with 30 minutes of upbeat contemporary music — not hymns — played by a live band.
“It’s not a churchy feel,” Osteen, 40, said. “We don’t have crosses up there. We believe in all that, but I like to take the barriers down that have kept people from coming. A lot of people who come now are people that haven’t been to church in 20 to 30 years.”
…Lakewood’s attendance has grown so massive that the church recently bought the Compaq Center, a former sports arena, which is being remodeled to hold an even larger congregation.
“This will be the first church in the country to see 35,000 people,” Vaughan said.
He’s being sold to us by people who want to make money off his success, and they are counting on us to be sheep, “baaing” quietly, but going along to the slaughter.
Any analysis of Joel Osteen’s theology is going to have a hard time saying he is proclaiming the Christian message. The most popular preacher in Christianity is proclaiming a theology that is neither Christian, nor Jewish, nor Muslim, but is pragmatically pagan. Pagan in the sense of finding ways to gain the favor of god so he will do good things for you. Manipulating the deity to give you blessings. This is the ultimate example of Luther’s “theology of glory” chosen over the “theology of the cross.” I would rather a non-Christian hear John Shelby Spong a hundred times than hear this. Spong denies it all- outright. Osteen is presented as a Christian, but his message isn’t going to bring you to Christ, the Kingdom or heaven. It’s spiritual cyanide disguised as candy. If there is a hell, Osteen’s message won’t stop you or the people you love from going there, because the savior in his messages is YOU and the salvation he offers is a NEW ATTITUDE, and some resulting real estate.
The question becomes, will evangelicals do anything? Will they say anything? Will they register their objections to Osteen’s reshaping of the Reformation gospel into a positive thinking message that makes Robert Schuller look like John Calvin in comparison?
I have a challenge for one segment of the evangelical community: The Blogosphere. My fellow bloggers.
I want to challenge the Christian Blogosphere to devote at least one substantial post to outing Joel Osteen. Why is a man who doesn’t preach the gospel the most popular preacher in America? Are we going to take note of what kind of message is going to be identified as building the largest church in America? In short, who in the blogosphere is willing to stand up and say “Joel Osteen’s message of positive thinking as a way to God’s favor isn’t the Christian Gospel.”
I want to challenge my fellow bloggers to do something most evangelicals won’t do: speak up. I want you to post something. I want you to send that post to other bloggers. Send those posts to evangelical leaders, magazines and reporters. Send them to the publisher of Osteen’s book. Send them to pastors, elders and staff members. Send them to World and ask why Joel Osteen’s abandonment of the Gospel of Christ and the cross isn’t front page news. Send those posts to Max Lucado and John Maxwell and ask why they have endorsed a ministry that purposely avoids mentioning Jesus Christ, but eagerly embraces a different message. Send those posts to Christianity Today, Relevant, Boundless, Discipleship Journal and anyplace else you can think of.
Let’s ask the questions:
Is Joel Osteen a representative of the evangelical Gospel if he believes that Christianity is about getting blessings from God in this life?
In a time of suffering, AIDS, persecution and sacrifice by Christians around the world, is Joel Osteen the person who should speak for Christians who believe in the message that is being suffered for and died for by thousands?
When evangelicals have been represented by John Stott and Billy Graham, are we going to be silent while Osteen becomes the new voice of evangelicalism?
Is Osteen preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or are these “lifts for the week” something else entirely?
Why are evangelicals embracing this man, his message and his ministry? What’s wrong with us?
My challenge:
1. Write a post about Osteen.
2. Encourage other bloggers to do the same. (Forward this link if you wish.)
3. Send it out. Raise the questions, speak the truth. Nail something on the door of the world.
I can’t bear to think of those who have come before us handing us the Gospel through all their faithfulness and sacrifice, and we give it to a man like Osteen; a man who doesn’t want to preach the glory of Christ, but the possibilities of a positive attitude. A man who has betrayed the gospel and is growing rich and powerful on that betrayal.
Will you join me?
The Internet Monk Archives 
Yeah, I know imonk. I’m not advocating him at all.
I’m not going to give any sort of “he’s not going to heaven” thing, either. I surely don’t think he _really_ preaches Jesus.
He does mention him… sometimes. But that’s about it.
Thanks for the kind words about my blog. I really, really need to clean it up, though. Make it sharper, less… “graphics intensive”. I like the graphics – but they’re almost too big. I’ll probably work on that today, actually.
LikeLike
I have read your article. I have also read Joel Osteen’s book (among many other evangelical publications). I also visited the sites you suggested. It would seem to me that anyone who could bring someone back to the Lord is blessed. Whether it be from a optimistic, positive standpoint or not. As far as not mentioning Jesus Christ, God and the Father have certainly been mentioned repeatedly both in his book and in his sermons. I am not condoning his style, but to me, anyone that can bring someone back to God or have a positive view of religion deserves recognition. As for the many scripture quotations by your respondents, even Satan himself quoted scripture………
LikeLike
Oops, last comment had a bad URL (paren got in the way. Here’s the link to his property record:
http://www.hcad.org/cgi-bin/AV/AVDetail.asp?taxyear=2004&acct=0752020270011
LikeLike
I enjoyed listening to Joel Osteen quite a bit. then one day, while doing research, I came across his property record (http://www.hcad.org/cgi-bin/AV/AVDetail.asp?taxyear=2004&acct=0752020270011) listing his house as being valued at $2,254,700.
I have a hard time watching him now. I don’t begrudge the guy for being successful, but it’s hard to take his preaching seriously when his lifestyle is so far beyond the average parishoner. I mean, how does he ask people to tithe to the church when the church funds are used to pay for a $2 million house??? Is the house a mission tool? Does he provide shelter to the homeless with it? Does he use it for promoting faith? Or does he simply relax in an extraordinarily lavish lifestyle when he hops form behind the pulpit???
LikeLike
Razorkiss (what a cool name)
You have the best WordPress blog I’ve ever seen. I desire it. Sell it to me.
Preaches Jesus? Preaches? How about mentions or refers to minimally? How about mentions Jesus in almost an identical way to motivational New Agers?
Imagine I invite Osteen to my church for a conference. He shows up, and I say, “We want you to do an exposition of Mark 8. Verse by verse, with context, introduction and application.”
Do you think he could do it? I think he would be utterly incapable of doing it at all. I don’t think he would have the first idea.
And as for the Easter sermon, I guess we have to admit that twice a day, every clock is right 🙂
LikeLike
My thesis (which tracks back to this post, I believe) is that he does preach Jesus… sometimes. However, that does not make him an evangelical? No. A “milk and water” charismatic? Probably. Who I want to be a “voice of Evangelicalism”? Oh, no, no, no.
He preaches milk. Skim, with a trace of Bible. Nothing more. He preaches no meat, no substance, no nothing. Only a bare-bones gospel, with a minimum of sin, and a minimum of gospel, and a minimum of Jesus.
So.. the answer is no. I also have a second-hand (it’s my parents, and they DID visit, and speak to their staff, so it’s as reliable a second-hand as you can get.) information of what exactly it’s like there.
So… it’s interesting.
LikeLike
I never intended any condescenion. Ahhh for a world were emoticons weren’t needed 🙂 Apologies if condescension were implied.
As to questions….identifying him correctly is a matter of asking the right questions.
Is he an evangelical?
Does he preach the Gospel?
Why have evangelicals embraced him?
etc.
> a public censure of JO and externally imposed limits on his influence.
No. Never thought of it. Does somethng in either one of my posts imply it? I mean he’s on his own. He’s not accountable to me or any other Christians except Lakewood. It’s a free country. Hence the need for Christian communicators to make it clear that whatever he is, he isn’t one of us.
Again, no condescension implied. Sorry.
LikeLike
>My purpose has never been to change JO. That’s hilarious.
That sounds a trifle condescending. It’s an odd tone to take with someone who is basically agreeing with you.
>My purpose has simply been to encourage the Christian blogosphere to say that he isn’t evangelical.
This is in direct contradiction to the questions you raise in your post, where you say “let’s ask the questions.” These clearly imply an intention beyond mere proclamation–things like, for instance, a public censure of JO and externally imposed limits on his influence.
LikeLike
My purpose has never been to change JO. That’s hilarious. My purpose has been to simply encourage the Christian Blogosphere to say that he isn’t an evangelical.
CT is doing a piece on Osteen that will raise the questions, and I look forward to it.
LikeLike
Reading the exchanges here, it seems that “outing” JO is not only difficult and unpleasant, but largely pointless. Don’t you think that he already gets a steady stream of “discernment” mail pointing out the flaws in his message? Maybe he listens to them, but it seems doubtful. For all we know, JO might be a thoughtful man, often pondering his strategy and hoping for the best. As has been (rightly) pointed out here, that doesn’t get him off the hook for his actions.
I have a friend who is a pastor in a large church. He belongs to a group who regularly meets at big churches and discusses what they are doing right. At one church, its “signature ministry” was something called “raising the standard and lowering the bar.” The basic idea of this is that we need to demand constant spiritual growth from our members (“raising the standard,”) but in order to grow we need to make it easier to begin that process as a member (“lowering the bar.”)
The problem with this approach in practice, according to my friend, is that it is much easier to lower the bar than to raise the standard. This large church, whose signature ministry it was to raise the standard, had very quickly lowered the bar–making a declaration of membership about as easy as joining Sam’s Club. OTOH, their progress in raising the standard had not yet gotten them quite to an eighth grade catechumen’s level of knowledge.
Isn’t that really what JO has done, reductio ad absurdum? How do you “out” this? You’ll either wind up preaching to the choir or annoying people who follow JO because he is a “great leader” but don’t want to engage his ideas seriously. Either alternative has its dangers. I’m continually troubled by narcissitic tendencies among those with refined doctrinal sensibilities; anyone who actually enjoys outing someone like JO should take a good look inward as well, IMHO. I wouldn’t want to make JO a martyr either; that would be nauseating to watch, if nothing else.
In actual fact, JO has done us a service by showing, in reality, what was previously available only as a thought experiment. We now know how large a church can grow if the bar is lowered right to the ground, and the standard stays somewhere on the level of “Think and grow rich.” We also know how such a church will be received, and how enthusiastically some folks will defend a message that could be plunked into a buddhist setting without significant alteration.
Some things should be done because they are the right thing to do. Pointing out that the JO is not preaching the gospel might be one of those. Just be prepared to deal with a lot of grief from people who really don’t know what the gospel is. Judging from the traffic on this thread, I’d say that might include a pastor or two.
LikeLike
The Lord works in strange ways to bring about His will. I’ve wondered why God doesn’t eliminate false teachers like a Joel Osteen? The answer might be that we, as Christians, are accountable for what we believe. Joel Osteen “exposes” himself as either a “clueless Christian” or a knowingly false pretender to Christianity. It the latter, he’s not the first and won’t be the last. Christian’s have the Scripture, and we are admonished in the strictest terms to test the teaching presented against it as The Standard of Truth. Olsteen’s “flock” is accountable to stop behaving like sheep and begin reading and using their Bibles.
LikeLike
How is the world going to live as Christians, if the world will not acknowledge the power and the Life that must undergird a Christian’s life? Heck, Joel doesn’t even focus on that power (the power and wisdom of God hidden in the foolishness of the Cruifixion, I Cor 1:18-25) in his preaching, so how can his congregation know it?
Is the fact that 30,000 people show up every week and that he has a television show, and people write in saying what great messages he gives, mean that God is at work? Then God is working through the Mormons and the Muslims too, I guess, because they can make the same claims. “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.” What seems more foolish – a sharp guy with an easy message gathering a large crowd, or a crusty pastor on a plain-text web diary trying to call that man (and the evangelical attitudes that gave birth to him) into account?
You’ve made your case as to where God is most at work – I’ve made mine.
LikeLike
I think it is sinful how you people are shaming Joel for teaching the world how to live as Christians live….In nearly every sermon, he teaches how to love people the way CHRIST loves…how to forgive the way CHRIST forgives…Every sermon is backed with meaningful scripture. I am just thankful that this meaningless webboard and your angry views could never stop what God has planned….May Joel keep winning souls and I hope that you all check your hearts with the Holy Spirit
LikeLike
…And another thing (I feel like Columbo).
The Great Commision: “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature.” Mark 16:15, KJV
That’s the final thing Christ said before his accension. After 3 1/2 years of public ministy, teaching in the temple, preaching to thousands, mentoring his desciples personally, his very last command was evangelical. Preaching the gospel was his last request. But what’s the use of quoting the words of Christ to a guy who isn’t preaching Christ at all in the first place, right?
LikeLike
If nothing else, my comment will be number 127. I’m reminded of a command to take up our cross and follow. Jesus “embraced” his cross. What cross does Osteen embrace? Paul promised we would suffer for the cause of Christ. When I preach I am conscience of a cerain responsibility to the gospel, and to the Word of God to be true to it. Right after the Bible says “Study to show thyself approved” which could alone mean a lot of different things, it clarifies “a workman rightly dividing the word of truth.” I hope that I am never so disillusioned that I enter the pulpit and forsake the gospel. If we are now ashamed of Jesus and his name, will he not be ashamed of us?
LikeLike
Wow, this was certainly entertaining.
I don’t know that I would consider myself an evangelical anymore but I do remember watching John Osteen on Sunday nights…I would enjoy it but I would learn things too. I was a very new Christian at that time…
I will say that while Joel is every bit as energetic as his father, he is completely different, and I have absolutely no problem referring to him as a motivational speaker. One reason I don’t want to call myself an evangelical anymore is that much of the evangelicalism I have seen (at least in my area of the country) is very similar to what Osteen preaches-very low on theology or Christ, very high on ‘ear tickling’.
Being someone who has been immersed in the ‘prosperity gospel’ sort of faith and has been harmed a good deal by it, I am very suspicious of any minister or church that has the idea that everything is going to come up roses simply if you think positively. Yes, praying and thinking positively can help out and all but real life tells you that there *will* be trials, there *will* be tribulations, and (gasp!) you *wont* always get everything you want. Oh, and guess what. The Bible says that too. But telling people that doesn’t pack people into megachurches and raise a whole lot of money..better to either tell them what they want to hear and about how happy-happy-joy-joy life with Christ is, or better to make them feel better about themselves by talking about how horribly awful everyone else in the world is and how the US MUST become a theocracy as soon as possible (the other thing from my old group/TBN disciples, but that is another post, another time).
So, Osteen might say some nice things and is interesting to listen to…and I don’t doubt his sincerity at all, but I see him more as a motivational speaker.
Michael, does that help?:)
LikeLike
We are supposed to be known as ______________________ (Fill in blank with whatever you want that the Bible says do, but the other guy isn’t doing.)
Let’s play Brad.
Why aren’t you feeding the hungry instead of blogging?
Why aren’t you out street preaching instead of reading blogs?
Why aren’t you visiting nursing homes instead of arguing with me?
This is fun.
Why aren’t you praying for missionaries, instead of correcting me?
Why aren’t you on a mission trip?
Why aren’t you putting gospel tracts in mailboxes on your street?
In fact, since I am wasting my time not praying but correcting, where did you get a note from God to correct me? Shouldn’t you be praying for me?
I need to call Zondervan. This could be a board game. We’ll call it…
Wretched Urgency II
https://internetmonk.com/guilty.html
LikeLike
“We have the power to agree in the Name of Jesus and change things! We are suppose to be known as a people of prayer! So together why don’t we all take some time and ask the God reveal His Truth to these people and to this Joel, so that they might be set free!”
That’s quite a strange comment Brad and it probably highlights many of the differences in thinking that divide us as Christians.
For starters, I would probably assume that many, if not most, of Lakewood church would pray for Joel Osteen. I’m not so arrogant as to assume that Lakewood church is full of apostate unbelievers – so given the fact that these believers are praying for him, don’t you think that God would listen to them? It might just be that it is all part of God’s plan that this whole “outing” business be brought up as an answer to the prayers of his church. Maybe this “outing” may be used by God to change Osteen’s heart and lead him into preaching the gospel. At the very least I’m hoping that Osteen would realise his mistake and return to the truth.
Secondly, I am not one of these people who believe that “We have the power to agree in the Name of Jesus and change things!”. It is not we who change things, it is God. We have no power at all, brother.
Thirdly, your point about us praying for Osteen and his church assumes that we don’t. We’re not doing this to be disruptive or destructive. We’re doing this to help. It may not be a nice thing – but it has to be done. SOMEONE has to take out the garbage.
LikeLike
Thanks for calling me super spiritual. I have been called many things, but that is not one of them. Thank You!
My point still stands, where is the prayer for this guy and those who follow him? So he is wrong, the spiritual gift of discernment has worked. Now that the Holy Spirit has revealed something to you where is the intercession, which is also a spiritual weapon. We are to put on the whole armor of God. Even when God had Paul write to the Corinthians about their faults, and they were many, He also had Paul write that he was praying for them.
If the only thing we do is find fault what good is it? We have the power to agree in the Name of Jesus and change things! We are suppose to be known as a people of prayer! So together why don’t we all take some time and ask the God reveal His Truth to these people and to this Joel, so that they might be set free!
Love
Brad
LikeLike
PT, brother in Christ, check yourself… that was really arrogant on a few levels.
LikeLike
Thanks again, iMonk. It is incredible to me that to some of these folks, simple Biblical discernment doesn’t qualify as a work that “matters”. If we lose the ability to discern, or the will to discern, as it seems obvious some have, with what are we left? Some of the posts here are sadly indicative of the poor state of affairs in evangelical circles. And you’re right in something that was said earlier: this isn’t about little intramural disputes we have over Calvinism and Arminianism; it isn’t about a little bit of poor exegesis here (Wilkinson) or a fairly vapid work by a fellow believer (PDL) or anything of that nature. This is about the embrace by evangelicals of a man whose message, happy and upbeat though it may be, is categorically not the gospel.
What I wonder is at what point we hold Christian publishers accountable (and how). At what point (and how) do we say to “Family Christian Stores” that if you wouldn’t carry Dr. Phil (who knows, maybe they WOULD) or Oprah, then how can you carry Joel Osteen (and Osteen isn’t the only one–how can they carry Amy Grant’s music? Sorry, topic for another day)? A big pastors’ wives conference in Orlando (don’t tell me you didn’t get 1000 mailings on it) featured Osteen and his pretty wife alongside some solid men and their wives. At what point do we (gently!) ask these men to refrain from giving this tacit endorsement? More questions than answers at this point…
LikeLike
Those of whom Jesus has called to serve His Church as pastors have an important duty. It is very clear that we are personally responsible for protecting the Church against doctrinal error that would harm believers and produce divisions within the local congregations.
Joel Osteen is one of those threats.
And it is a responsibility we should all take seriously.
LikeLike
We’re still living with the repurcussions of the Kantian curse (where head *must* by definition be divided from the heart). PT, deeds are shaped by our beliefs. Beliefs provoke deeds. “Love the LORD your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your *mind*.” What God hath joined together, let no man separate.
You say we shouldn’t judge on ideas if the deeds are good. Well, both the *deeds* and *ideas* of Joel are on the table here – there’s plenty of material here (or by reference) on both. *You* are the one judging *us* on our ideas, with no idea of our deeds. Were you aware that the Monk is a pastor and a teacher and an evangelist?
Physician, heal thyself.
LikeLike
Yes, thankfully he isn’t like other men. Applause please.
What is the mental disorder that causes me to write that writing this post is why I don’t write this post, or reading this blog is why I don’t read blogs, or carping at people is why I don’t have time to carp at people?
LikeLike
Thanks for sharing all those events you’re working on, PT. You’ve received your reward.
LikeLike
That’s quite the good work. I’ll post up a prayer request on my site.
LikeLike
Reading through these posts reminds me of why i don’t usually waste my time on blogs! But i couldn’t sleep last night and was perusing this thread, so i can’t resist a quick post:
So far we’ve learned (from various posts) that Joel Osteen, Dr. Dobson, Bruce Wilkinson, Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard, Rick Warren, George Barna, Robert Schuller, Max Lucado, Catholics, & Rabid Pentecostals (of which there are more than 500 million) are all heretics (or at least semi-heretical- depending on the generosity of the person posting). If you don’t agree with this then you’re likened to a Nazi (Joseph Goebbels). But we shouldn’t despair because all the truly elect of God will be redeemed anyways and evangelicalism is going to be saved by “an informal, loose affiliation of theologically sound individuals and organizations (imonk, John Hendryx at moneregism.com, Modern Reformation, ACE and Al Mohler).”
Wow- i feel much more theologically safe.
Anyways- thanks for reminding me why these blogs are such a distraction and waste of time and energy. i need to get back to work that matters (planning a week long outreach to teens in our city for March, a two week evangelistic mission trip to India in June and a week long outreach into the inner city of Miami in July). i’ll leave the truly important stuff to you theological heavyweights.
LikeLike
Has he really, technically, replaced the gospel with another gospel? I keep seeing Galatians 1 brought up but what those Judaizers were doing with perverting the Gospel to the point that a person had to be circumcised and carry out the Law in order to insure their salvation. Joel, based on my (limited) experience, doesn’t touch the Gospel until the last 30 seconds as a sign off. If anything, he has minimized the Gospel and the cross…not perverted it.
There are many Christians who refuse to do theology and others who go on, day by day, barely making mention of the Gospel of God. If anything, Joel’s example should be making us introspective…examining where we have fallen short in the presentation of God’s revealed truth and thinking of those times that we’ve danced around the subject.
LikeLike
I never used the term antiChrist but it refers in I John to the denier of the incarnation. Those who make the incarnation of no use in the faith and make Jesus into an example of positive thinking are close.
Heretic is one who denies or significantly perverts an essential while confessing to be a Christian.
Joel refuses to do theology, so he thinks he’s safe. But to all appearances, he has abandoned the Gospel and replaced it with another.
I would call him- technically- an apostate.
But motivational speaker is all I want evangelical to say, because that’s what he says.
LikeLike
Now technically I did not run into Godwin’s law here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
LikeLike
I read all your negative comments and I just can’t understand what is wrong with you people. The man is a born leader. People follow him because they are inspired by his words and motivated by his actions.
Think back a few years. What was going on? We had high unemployment and business failures… not to mention those foreign powers who were jealous of our values and acted accordingly.
The man preaches a message and he is loved. When you go to one of his meetings you leave with a great positive feeling – the singing, the message, everything. Surely that is what our country needs? Surely this is how we will pull together as a nation?
I challenge all you naysayers out there to go to one of this man’s meetings. You have no idea what is truly going on and the wonderful effect that it is having upon people.
And as far as his messages and books are concerned – you just don’t know the man! All you focus on are the words! Stop focusing upon areas of the intellect and instead focus upon the heart!
History will be his vindicator. In years to come people will study his work and will ask “How was all this possible?”, “Why were so many people affected?”, “What can we learn from this man’s work?”.
You’re all pathetic.
Yours Sincerely,
Joseph Goebbels,
Berlin, 1938.
LikeLike
can the brothers here defending Osteen do me a favor? please give your definition of a heretic also a definition of Antichrist
thanks!
LikeLike
Michael Spencer is dead on with regards to Osteen. Osteen is a dangerous, false teacher and Spencer rightly warns others.
I don’t know about the “evangelical blogosphere”, but some have been writing about and warning against Osteen at various discernment web sites for some time.
Of course “mainstream” evangelical leaders will do nothing but fall over one another in an attempt to get on Osteen’s bandwagon and endorse his books.
This should not be surprising given the times.
Jim Gieseke
Houston, Texas
LikeLike
Doug! Nice to see we were of the same mind there!
LikeLike
“Man in the Middle” sort of reminds me of a hypercalvinist – but without anything really important to believe in.
LikeLike
Man in the Middle:
Then explain this passage:
2 Peter 2:1-3 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
1 Timothy 1:3 3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1 Timothy 6:3-5 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
Titus 1:9-11 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
Just tell me what is being commanded in these passages and if it isn’t clearly pointing out, as Gal 1:8-9 says, the abandonment of the Gospel AND THE MEN WHO DO IT, I’ll put up shop.
LikeLike
Middle man,
So is Almighty God also able to win the lost to Himself without our aid? So why do we go out and evangelize?
Yes, God will defend His Gospel – but God does work *through means*. Imperfect means, yes, but He does work through them. He expects *His people* to go out and preach the Gospel, not sit around and wait for the lost to come to them. And He expects *His people* to cherish and defend that Gospel, even if people arise from our own numbers who divert from it. Will we do so perfectly? Hardly. But we are called to do both, wherever and whenever the need arises.
I never thought to hear hypercalvinist arguments from a Willow Creeker… ;-}
LikeLike
Joel Osteen preaches the gospel here:
http://www.lakewood.cc/sermons/cs_001.htm
But that was over four years ago – just when he began to pastor the church.
LikeLike
This is my Bible.
I have no idea what is in it but I know it must be darn important.
I can only understand what is in it by listening to Pastor Joel.
Today would be a really nice day to hear the Word of God – but only if it makes me happy.
My mind is inert.
My heart is deceptive.
I am about to receive the unchallenged, authoritative words of Pastor Joel.
I will probably remain the same but just feel good about it all.
I will never, never, never, ask any tough questions at all.
LikeLike
As an Evangelical (specifically a “Willowcreeker”), “outing” Joel Osteen is not my problem. To think otherwise is to imply Almighty God isn’t able to safeguard His Message. Anyone who fears that may not be much of an Evangelical, but I’m not called to judge them either.
LikeLike
i agree with pjlr in that many here speak big and haven’t even heard him speak.
those of you need to think for yourselves before you tag along with loud voices just because they are loud.
LikeLike
If I read the 200 plus comments on three discussion threads I’ve monitored on this topic, I could write a book:
“The Big book of 100 things You can and should do rather than talk about the Gospel”
Or
Why Galatians 1:8-9 Isn’t In My Bible”
LikeLike
“we interceed with spiritual weapons that are mighty to the bringing down of strongholds!”
Believe it or not, brad, that is excatly what we are doing here. Our critique of Osteen is actually spiritual warfare.
But the tools of spiritual warfare include much more than just prayer. In Ephesians 6 Paul mentions truth, righteousness, the gospel, faith, salvation and the word of God.
The TRUTH is that RIGHTEOUSNESS can only be given to people by God through the message and work of the GOSPEL. Through FAITH in what Christ has done on the cross, we have the promise of SALVATION. How do we know this? It is there in the WORD OF GOD.
By stating that Osteen is not preaching the gospel, we are engaging in Spiritual Warfare. And the tools we are using are those mentioned in Ephesians 6. Opposition is therefore to be expected.
LikeLike
This kind of superspiritual response again indicates to me that the Gospel itself matters a lot less than _________ (fill in the blank.)
The pastoral epistles say that it is perfectly right to identify a false teacher as such. It’s absolutely right. The prophets did it. Jesus did it. The Apostles did it. But we’ve got people who have laundered out anything that says the Gospel has been abandoned. Turn up on TBN and we have to embrace the whole circus.
Then we have to hear this: Instead of identifying Osteen as a false teacher, why aren’t you ___________________? OK, why aren’t you folks _________________________ instead of wasting time on my blog?
Has anyone read the New Testament lately?
LikeLike
I read your comments and several of the posted comments and this is what I would like to ask all of you. “Why aren’t any of you encouraging us to pray for this guy?” Paul was killing our forefathers and still God saved him and used him mightily!
It’s so easy to find fault. But what sets the children of God apart from the world is we interceed with spiritual weapons that are mighty to the bringing down of strongholds!Bless them that curse us and pray for them that despitfully use us. I believe Jesus said we do these things so that we might be the sons of God!
I pray for all of you that God will set you free. This guy needs our prayers and so do his followers. Jesus is bigger than all of the wrong and when 2 or more of us agree in our Saviors Name things happen. A man who is wrong can be righted, regardless of what he has done! Theres a beam in all of yours eyes. Clean it out so you can be used to remove the speck in an others!
God’s will be done!
LikeLike
pjlr,
It’s probably moot at this point, as everyone else has had their say, but…
“Doug: You asked if I have evaluated what I teach to see if I am on the same page as J.O. I have heard J.O. on a number of occasions and can tell you that my understanding of the Gospel is more developed than what he may be publicly communicating. Again I think we can dissect his message without calling him a ‘sham’ or ‘Gnostic.'”
Is it a question of being “more developed”? The concensus (and I have read nothing in all the citations, links, and cross-references for and against to say otherwise) is that the difference runs deeper than that. The difference between a “less developed” gospel and the *whole* gospel may make all the difference in the world. Given the nature of our cultural, ecclesiastical, and personal troubles, is this any time for a “less developed” Gospel? The exhortations in the New Testament to preach the *whole* gospel, regardless of popularity or results, are too numerous to mention. If someone in a small flyspeck church were preaching the same thing Joel does, it would be no less of a tragedy. The greater tragedy here is that many thousands in that church (not to mention who knows how many more who watch on TV or read his books) aren’t getting the “more developed” gospel. With great power and influence comes great responsibility. Nobody at his church (it would seem) is holding his feet to the fire on this (that happens all too often in churches with “superstar” pastors, I’ve seen it) – so somebody has gotta do it. Hard as this may be for you, try to look past what you perceive as the “self-righteous name-calling” and listen to what we’re trying to say!
LikeLike
Absolutely dead-on; I did a post on my blog in December, and I’ll do another. I will not judge his heart–only God is qualified. But I can judge his message, and without ugliness or meanness in any way, it’s very simple: this man is not a Christian preacher–of any sort, much less evangelical. Will link to you and join in this work.
Byron
a ticking time blog
http://www.byron-harvey.com
LikeLike
pjlr,
In the off chance that you do return here and read some of our postings, please understand the following points.
1. All of us here who are working to “out” Joel Osteen do so out of a passionate regard for the gospel of Christ and because we aim to honour our Lord. While this attitude does not necessarily mean we are correct, it does mean that we are not doing this for our own selfish ends or because we unreasonably hate someone.
2. The fact that we have come into conflict with you is not because we hate you or wish to destroy your Christian faith. We are aiming to challenge you and we all hope and pray that you will do your own research into Osteen’s ministry.
3. In Romans 1:16, Pauls says that he is not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of salvation for everyone who believes. In 1 Corinthians 2:2, Paul says that he decided to know nothing while he was with the Corinthians except Jesus Christ and him Crucified. Now if you compare these two verses with what Osteen is saying, you will discover that Osteen does not believe the gospel is powerful, and the content of his preaching is totally void of the cross.
We’re not doing all this out of spite.
If Osteen was in exactly the same financial and geographical location he is now; and if he was still the pastor of Lakewood church and still had 25000 people attending services; and if he was still appearing on TV and still released best selling books; and if, let’s say, that in all these things he was firmly and clearly preaching the gospel of Christ crucified… then none of our actions would’ve taken place at all. imonk would never have written the article he did, and this whole conversation we are having on this discussion thread would never have taken place.
The man doesn’t preach the gospel. That is our concern. It is as simple as that.
LikeLike
Tune in tonight for the best of pjlr:
Destroy Joel!!
Salem Witch Trials!!
Inquisition!!
Character Assassination!!!
Commenters Banned!!!
Puppies Eaten!!!!
Babies Pinched!!!!
UPS Packages arrive late!!!!
No prizes in my Cracker Jacks!!!!
When this is what you see going on because one fat bald blogger wants to be sure we all hear Joel say what Joel is plainly saying….you need a Coke. 🙂
LikeLike
Boy, the Inquisition has nothing on you guys. Your scorched earth policy is frightening. I’ll sign off and let you have your little world to yourselves. Don’t bother replying as I won’t be there to respond.
LikeLike
It’s in I Corinthians 1 and 2. I cannot imagine what Osteen does with those passages.
LikeLike
As I read the Osteen interviews one question comes to mind. Where is the preaching of Christ crucified that is to some a stumbling block and to others foolishness?
Count me in. I’ve posted my 2 cents worth on my blog…
Solo Christo,
LikeLike
pjlr: You, sir, fail to realize that grace and love are perfectly capable of existing in the same space as calling a spade a spade. If we’re calling Osteen out, it’s because we love the church and we want to see him and the people he’s deceived come to repentance. So there.
Besides, doesn’t it seem a bit ironic to you that you’re judging people for being judgmental? Hm.
LikeLike
I had the same reaction the first (and only) time I listened to one of his sermons. I was disturbed for days.
LikeLike
pjlr:
You really are a piece of work.
Osteen has not offended me and I have no scriptural need to confront him because his books and interviews are all over the place telling me he is a motivational speaker, and I am simply saying let’s say so. YOU on the other hand, have accused me of:
a. Wanting to destroy him
b.Character assassination
c. Having the mo of banning people (and I have banned no one on this thread)
d. conducting witch trials.
TWICE I’ve asked you to produce evidence of these things, and you simply refuse, instead calling me more names like “self righteous.”
I’ve confronted you, I’ve asked you for civility, and you simply hurl more lies my way.
There is no need to ban you. Your credibility speaks for itself.
LikeLike
pjlr,
1) I contend, sir, that you have not spent the time to read the articles mentioned here at this website that explain WHY we are taking this action. Read imonk’s articles on “The role of the critic in Christianity” and respond to the arguments there in a logical fashion.
2) You are accusing us of behaving in a way that you have behaved towards us. In psychology this is called “projection”. You have made assertions about our intent and yet you have refused to answer our own specific questions. I suggest that you do the research, read imonk’s article, read all the other articles that have been written about Osteen, read all the comments on this comment page and THEN come back at us with a cogent argument.
3) “While J.O.’s sermons and writings are out there for perusal, ones complete thoughts are never published”. This is wimping out. the lack of gospel in JO’s sermons and writings are there BECAUSE they are not CENTRAL to his message. What he writes and preaches about are what is important to him.
4) “He may be guilty of no more than dumbing down the gospel, but that is different than watering it down or preaching heresy.” He has not “dumbed it down”. He has not even watered it down. He has removed it altogether. That is heresy.
LikeLike
My blog that I mentioned above can be found at http://www.SinnerandSaint.typepad.com
LikeLike
Davis,
I don’t doubt that your friends are experiencing “something” but I would caution you into using this as a pretext for assuming that God uses Osteen’s ministry.
I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts to make us believers. I saw it in my sister 15 years ago as she struggled to understand God and, after 3-6 months, was converted.
But you need to understand that CONTENT is important. Your friends may like Osteen, but if you look at the content of Osteen’s message you will find the gospel missing and you will find the word of God missing. Without these two things, the Holy Spirit will NOT be working in your friends lives through Osteen’s ministry.
If you check out the posts above you will see a quote from a buddhist who listens to Osteen all the time. You’d think that would be a good thing? No. They guy thanks Osteen for making him a better Buddhist.
There is no doubt that your friends are being influenced by Osteen’s teaching. But, in my mind, there is no doubt that this influence is NOT A RESULT of the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
BTW – I only criticise Osteen from what I know. Is he really a “Rich kid” and a “slob”? We here in this forum who are debating his lack of gospel, not his childhood bank account and personal hygiene habits. Heck, it’s 11.15am here in Australia and I haven’t had a shower yet.
LikeLike
I have a blog. I have posted my thoughts there as your suggestion. I invite everyone to read my thoughts on the matter. God’s blessings.
LikeLike
monk: Go ahead and banish me. It seems to be your m.o. for people who may raise an objection that you don’t agree with. Let me once again (I have read all of your updates) voice my concerns
1. Have you at least tried to contact J.O. Comparing him to Goliath or Philistines is unfair. J.O. claims to be a believer and I think he deserves that simple courtesy.
2. While J.O.’s sermons and writings are out there for perusal, ones complete thoughts are never published. The grid by which we filter other’s thoughts is often influence by our own “flawed” understanding of words, concepts and principles.
3. While J.O. is up front as the leader, I contend that the real problem may be in the pew. In a land with all the resources you could hope for, Christians are still theologically shallow. He may be guilty of no more than dumbing down the gospel, but that is different than watering it down or preaching heresy.
Doug: You asked if I have evaluated what I teach to see if I am on the same page as J.O. I have heard J.O. on a number of occasions and can tell you that my understanding of the Gospel is more developed than what he may be publicly communicating. Again I think we can dissect his message without calling him a “sham” or “Gnostic.”
Aaron Adams: My response to Gal 1 is Phil 1:15-18
I prefer to be more gracious to brothers (and to question J.O.’s salvation as others have, is a cheap shot) in ministry whether they be reformed, arminian or God forbid “Pentecostal.” Sorry, I too should try not be sarcastic 😦
LikeLike
yes, imonk, lets for a minute call it what it is. there are large aspects missing from his teachings on TV. joel grew up a preachers kid, (i am not, thank the Lord :o) so this poor young slob of a spoiled rich kid gets tossed into a situation like he is in… he’s got no clue as to what is going on.. it’s a whirlwind around him. he most likely is being guided by a greedy “christian” bunch of businessMen setting up his huge TV performances and crusades in the largest cities, and they all measure the success by dollar$igns, and they are surely successful at that!! that part is the bad part (i could go into detail about the evil parts of my own “job” as well), but the good part is that my 2 close friends have opened up their lives for Christ, and He is changing both their lives right now. …so the moral of my story is, the wretched man tries to interpret the gospel to another wretched man, and the Holy Spirit, unDoes what mess we make of it, and somehow changes the heart anyway. It doesn’t happen overnight (well sometimes). but i’ve read and i believe that 90% of people that make commitments to Christ do it from one-on-one conversations with close friends over a long period of time. i will say that a night out with Joel at his crusades is not much more than christian entertainment but to IDENTIFY WHO THE GUY IS is a bit harsh and i feel judgmental in doing that, probably becuase of my own shortfalls. is this weak of me?
LikeLike
Davis,
sheesh
Can I say what you say really frustrates me.
CAN’T WE IDENTIFY WHAT THE GUY IS?
That’s all. I don’t want to hurt him. I don’t deny God sovereignly speaks through asses like me. I don’t want to arrest him. I just want to SAY WHAT HE IS?
Can’t we do that? We do it for Buddah and Satan and Oprah. Why not Joel?
Can you explain?
LikeLike
joel is a nice fella. i think he thinks he’s doing the best he can. possibly measuring his “pulpit and message” success by his attendance. anyway, these are my feeble opinions. i do have some good news for all of us that joel and his TV show has planted some seeds. 2 of my friends love his show and watch it faithfully each week. they are in the process of becoming believers and Joel is the seed and topic that gets the conversation started and opens them up for my further talks with them. Joel may not be the perfect man with the perfect ministry, but neither am I. my lousy attitude and sin filled life leave much to be desired (you can ask my friends, they’ll tell you the same :o) but by using the grace i live under, and trying to follow Christ best i can, this is what i cling to. my life is quite easy. joel has it quite different. decisions i make may be worth $100 or so, decisions he makes are worth $1,000,000 (at least). pray for him that he does not mix his christianity with the success of his ministry. if we all pray that same thing, instead of cut him down, we will be working together.
LikeLike
pjlr:
Was Paul engaging in “character assassination” when he said “As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed”?
If not, then neither am I. If so, then we have a Biblical precedent. Either way, your point is irrelevant. Those who preach a gospel other than the Gospel of Christ are to be accursed, and Joel Osteen is preaching another Gospel. Can you prove otherwise? Ample evidence has been given by many people to show that this is the case, but all you’re saying is “what a bunch of baloney!” You lack any substantive argument. The argument you are opposing is this:
1. Ministers are called to preach the Gospel, to be accountable for doing so, and to preach nothing BUT the Gospel.
2. Joel Osteen preaches a message of self-help by virtue of positive thinking and is self-consciously opposed to preaching about sin, Hell, Jesus, the cross, or the justice and mercy of God.
3. The Gospel is not a message of self-help by virtue of positive thinking, but the reliance of helpless sinners on the mercy of God in Christ alone for salvation.
4. Therefore, Joel Osteen does not preach the Gospel.
5. Therefore, Paul speaks against his like in Galatians 1.
6. Therefore, we have precedence to speak against Joel Osteen in defense of the Faith.
LikeLike
>character assassination
One more time before I ban you. Give me a single line of character assassination, intent to destroy or Salem Witch trials.
LikeLike
What an incredible display of self-righteousness! If we have a problem with a televangelist or mega-church pastor, we can disagree without resorting to character assassination. Most of us only have a glimpse, a snapshot of the man and his ministry. It is totally unfair to judge him on such flimsy evidence. You can criticize and/or debate specific points of his teaching, but it is a sad day when we play judge and jury.
I’d simply say, back off and discuss the relevant points of his alleged theological errors, but remember, his wife and his kids have to put up with these attacks.
In an attempt to be keepers of the theological gate, we have resorted to behavior that is unbecoming children of God.
LikeLike
pjlr said: “I appeal to you, discontinue dragging other believers through the mud just because we may not like the way they package the message, the way they dress, the way they look and the way we define success.”
My response:
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Osteen preaches another gospel, which is really no gospel at all. I am not attempting to drag another believer through the mud; I am attempting to assist other believers in exposing a deceiver. “Even a dog barks when his master is attacked.”
LikeLike
I’ve posted my essay “Talk Hard” up on the main page. If you think that the driver of a school bus calling a ditch a ditch is wrong, please read it.
And one more time: Warning the church that a sheep is actually not a sheep is not a matter of reconciliation. Where Osteen takes my parking space, my space in line at Taco Bell or my wife, we can be reconciled. When he says faith is a positive attitude and sin/Jesus/Gospel aren’t worth mentioning, then I will warn, not reconcile.
(I’m seeing Jesus in Matthew 23. “Can we just work this out guys?” Hello??)
LikeLike
Destroy the Man?
Salem Witch Trials?
Whoever you are sir, could you please list a single sentence I have written that in any way suggests either of these two things? If you do not specifically do so, then I will expect an apology.
The Matthew 18 thing has gotten two long posts from me and they are on the Update list. You haven’t even read the original post. All you’ve read is the headline, and you are pissed. WHen you care enough to read about what I have said and not said, I will talk with you. Otherwise, good day.
LikeLike
I am with you all the way! Good work!
I’ve sent links to your blog to the moderators of three Yahoo groups…one for Reformed singles, the other for recovering Charismatics, the other, five hundred theology wonks.
Also, am praying the Lord would have mercy, and send true revival.
IHS
Mary
LikeLike
Dave, before posting a comment, please read the post that Michael left. The comments are supposed to be about this post. You did not read “UPDATE 3”.
LikeLike
Family Christian Store’s “Book of the Year”
(any guesses?)
Joel Osteen – _Your_Best_Life_Now_
LikeLike
I read an artical on this guy earlier this week in at Washingtonpost.com. And one thing comes to mind:
Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
LikeLike
Is destroying the man the best option? Should not Matt. 18 be followed? Has anyone confronted him, spoken to him in love to get clarity on his theology? Shouldn’t someone give him a chance to define his view of Jesus and turn around (repent) if his views are false.
Let us not repeat the Salem witch trails, let’s instead show the world confrontation done in love to restore a brother or help clarify a brother’s standing. Then his whole church could experience a revival of Jesus.
LikeLike
Sorry I posted twice. When I clicked the first time, nothing seemed to happen, and I thought I had moved my mouse. Please delete my second post and this one.
LikeLike
Joel Osteen appears to be the John Tetzel for the feel-good 21st Century America. While Tetzel peddled indulgences so that Pope Leo X could build St. Peter’s Bascilica, Joel Osteen peddles self-indulgence so he can build his empire.
Hank Hanegraaf of the Christian Research Institute, may have some personality flaws, just as Martin Luther did. But that does not justify the Catholic Church’s slanders against Luther or the Word-Faith charlatans’ and the Rapture speculators’ slanders against Hanegraaf.
LikeLike
Joel Osteen appears to be the John Tetzel for the feel-good 21st Century America. While Tetzel peddled indulgences so that Pope Leo X could build St. Peter’s Bascilica, Joel Osteen peddles self-indulgence so he can build his empire.
Hank Hanegraaf of the Christian Research Institute, may have some personality flaws, just as Martin Luther did. But that does not justify the Catholic Church’s slanders against Luther or the Word-Faith charlatans’ and the Rapture speculators’ slanders against Hanegraaf.
LikeLike
Pljr,
First of all, as Mike has already stated numerous times, Joel has made himself and his teaching public, in numerous venues (print, TV, internet, etc). With public exposure comes public accountability.
Second, check the beginning of the post that started this kerfuffle. Two links are provided, and Mike specifically requested that readers read those interviews *before* posting.
Third, if we *are* the “one, holy, universal, and apostolic” church, then we cannot ignore what one church does or does not do regarding the Gospel, simply because we don’t attend there ourselves. Especially if that church or that teacher is being held up as a role model and a trendsetter.
And finally, in light of your last paragraph, have *you* compared what you believe to what Joel says and teaches? Are you so sure that you and Joel are on the same page?
LikeLike
Shame on you. It is premature to take this argument to the public without at least having a personal dialogue with the accused. Half of these posts readily admit that they either, have never heard of Osteen, never listened to him, never read his books and yet judgment flows readily and freely.
The truth is that most of us have already cast our vote in respect to his message and ministry. None of us goes there and none of us contributes there. In the guise of protecting other sheep we malign and criticize a man we know little or nothing about.
I appeal to you, discontinue dragging other believers through the mud just because we may not like the way they package the message, the way they dress, the way they look and the way we define success. Osteen and I and you will have to answer to a God who knows the motives and intents of the heart. Be faithful to the message and save your energy for the prayer closet. We all like to believe we have a prophetic mantle like Elijah or John the Baptizer, but our ranting has little of the “thus saith the Lord.” It sounds more like jealousy, nitpicking, and judgmentalism.
One final thought, as a general rule I rarely listen to any televangelists. I encourage our people (I am a pastor) to study the word of God for truth and avoid mass marketing attempts to reach the world (that includes purpose driven living, seeker-sensitivity, health and wealth etc.). The vast majority of the work of God is done by individuals sharing the gospel, living out the gospel and prayerfully asking God to send forth laborers to reap the harvest.
LikeLike
I’m a bit concerned by the comparisons of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen. While I’m no fan of Warren, I have no doubts that he truly believes and understands the gospel. If my SBC relatives tell me they’re going through the PDL, I could care less (so long as they don’t try to get _me_ to read it). However, if somebody tells me that they’re into Joel Osteen, I will start to be concerned and quite possibly motivated to try to turn them away from him.
LikeLike
Thank you thank you for speaking out about Osteen. He is leading weak Christians astray, like a wolf in sheep’s skin.
LikeLike
I have thought of a good riposte to those who claim that our work here is causing a split in the church – as though voicing our concerns is not unifying the church.
The fact is that we are not causing the split – all we are doing is highlighting that the split exists. It wasn’t us who chose to stop obeying God and preach a different gospel.
Osteen and those like him are the ones responsible for splitting the church.
LikeLike
Michael–Keep on stirring up the waters. I would put forth that Joel Osteen may be one of the many whom John warns about in 1 John 2:22-23. Read my post at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/coriakinredeemd/380.html
LikeLike
Greg G:
I answered you here:
http://www.boarsheadtavern.com/archives/2005/02/01/00026868.html
LikeLike
Rasselsas. I think The Xers would be really turned off by Osteen. I think he is a boomer guy all the way.
LikeLike
do you think Osteen is to X’ers
what Rick Warren is to Boomers?
LikeLike
Osteen makes this comment in the FaithReader interview:
“There’s a chapter in there on how God enlarges us in our times of distress. I think I used that scripture in there.”
He says, “I think I used that scripture.” I am not sure what “that” scripture is, but “that” quote seems to sum up his “theology,” use Scripture if you can to provide some Biblical legitimacy. However, you cannot teach what he teaches and teach the Bible at the same time. They are not compatible. For those who wonder what all the fuss is about, that is it. He gives the impression of Biblical teaching. Have you seen the opening of his program? He leads the masses in some speel about how they promise to do whatever the Bible says, and then he proceeds to sell them his chocolate-covered clouds, which is as Biblical as Feng Shui. He is giving them Marx’s opiate. He is leading people astray. Therefore, he is a dangerous man.
LikeLike
Greg G.: Allow me to respectfully disagree and say that God’s love becomes a bigger deal when we realize that we are sinners, and that love in fact makes us more aware of our sin and how unworthy we are of it. If we deserve love then God is obligated to give it to us, and doesn’t Scripture say something about how He’s not obligated to anyone? 🙂
LikeLike
i’m not a theologist … just a regular joe doing the best he can in the world to keep it straight and narrow.
i’m a catholic, and One Salient Oversight’s post i founf offensive.
lot’s of people i feel don’t even know joel, haven’t watched his show .. yet post here from reading info from the web.
i just want to say this … if your church is lakewood, and his speaking is your only exposure to Christianity … your only weekly dose, then yes … i can understand the negative feelings as there could be a lot more Biblical teaching in his sermons.
that said, if you add his positive message on top of a strong biblical based foundation, i think joel’s words are excellant. we get a lot of fire and brimstone, and this world needs the education for certain, but make no mistake … his words really do help create a positive mental attitude, there is nothing wrong in that … it’s far better then to go through life with a weak spirit, in fear. sometimes the sheep need to be fed the verses that backup the fact that God did not create garbage.
we could all use a little more faith – Matthew 17:20
and regarding the getting of young people to church … i think they need to be reminded that God Loves them First … before their Sin.
LikeLike
I have often sorta dialed past Joel Osteen and get a creepy feeling when I here him preach. Usually I am revolted and do not know why. Thanks for expalining it to me. You are right Tony Robbins is at least honest about what he is doing. imonk, I appreciate you keeping to the subject and asking that the Penecostal bashers, and other theological arguements do not apply here. To me Theology is a discussion for another time and place. If a person preaches the Gospel of Virgin Birth, death and resurection, then you can sweat the small stuff in grandiose theological discussions. You get the basics correct and God will lead you where you need to go. Encouraging Bible reading and study is what helps people.
LikeLike
Hi. I was sent a link to this article by a friend of mine, and have answered by posting about Osteen in my own blog. If you like, you can follow the link I’ve placed in this comment. Otherwise, just know that you’ve got a fellow soldier in me.
Soli Deo gloria,
Aaron Adams
LikeLike
Time Magazine just came out with a photoessay on the “25 Most Influential Evangelicals in America”. Our man Joel didn’t make the list this time, but evidently somebody at Time has a very “big-tent” view on what an “evangelical” is. I mean, how else could Joyce Meyer and Richard John Neuhaus make the same list?!?
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050207/photoessay/index.html
LikeLike
Hi Matthew, “Prayer of Jabez” borders on gnosticism, which I believe is heresy. However, I think “The Life God Rewards” is much worse. But, like I was getting at in my post, one man’s heresy is another man’s misguided exegete.
LikeLike
Hey, I’m a lurker–I’ve got a post up on my blog, too.
Everyone, let’s remember to pray for Lakewood and for Osteen, that they’d come to repentance and a true knowledge of Christ. One of my best friends here at school is a member of Lakewood and I’m trying to figure out the best way to approach her with this issue.
LikeLike
Funny how God works. I just saw Mr. Osteen on TBN for the first time. I was wondering if I was wrong about him…. Apparently not.
My father respected his father, and that’s all I knew about him until now.
I don’t have a blog, or a website. But I will write the letters.
LikeLike
Whoa! I hate The Prayer of Jabez as much as the next guy but I would not label Bruce Wilkinson as a “heretic”. Misguided exegete, yes, but he’s no worse than, say, Max Lucado.
LikeLike
I think what Osteen represents isn’t a discussion about someone’s bad theology. It’s what we get with NO CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY. No Gospel. No Mediator. No Sin. No Biblical Faith. No Judgement. No Atonement. No Biblical Revelation of that Gospel. No sacraments. No real forgiveness. I would rather listen to John Shelpby Spong or Tony Robbins.
LikeLike
Until the last few years (with a few exceptions), it has seemed to me that “evangelicals” have been way too hesitant to criticize other “evangelicals.” It took years of abhorrent behavior for evangelicals to comment on people like Fred Phelps (of “god hates fags” infamy). Perhaps the abundance of godblogs has had something to do with changing that. While I am in favor of outing a heretic (and it looks like that is what is happening here), I’m a little anxious about where to draw the line. For instance, I’m neutral about Rick Warren (some good, some bad, some lazy), I think the “Prayer of Jabez Guy” is a heretic (I would put Osteen in the “jabez” camp), and I don’t think Pinnock is going straight to hell just because he’s an annihilationist. That’s just the way I see it.
LikeLike
This is amazing. God has delivered this article right to my computer screen, by a series of unrelated events, right when I needed it most. A friend of mine is tangled up in the Joel Osteen Gospel, not the Gospel of Jesus. Thank you so much for this post, the links, and your heart to bring Glory to God, not Joel Osteen.
LikeLike
It’s been a long time since I last posted anything here at imonk, but the article on Osteen got my blood pumping.
Okay, can I pick on something Osteen said in one of those interviews?
“If we donÂ’t forgive ourselves for mistakes weÂ’ve made–and everybodyÂ’s made their choices, some worse than others–weÂ’ll never experience the good life God has in store.” -belief.net interview
Where in the Bible are we told to forgive ourselves? We’re NOT!!! We are told to forgive others as we have been forgiven by God through Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice.
I’m sick and tired of people claiming to represent Jesus telling me to forgive myself as though the forgiveness I give will make me feel better about the condition of my soul than the forgiveness God Almighty gives! It’s a twisted way of trying to make yourself bigger than God. “God’s forgiveness just isn’t enough to cover my sin of deceit, so I must forgive myself in order to really be forgiven.” Talk about a pile of hooey. If God’s forgiveness isn’t enough for a person, nothing is enough.
Great article, Michael. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I will continue discouraging people from seeking Osteen’s brand of “wisdom.” Out of the half of two of his pep-talks that I listened to last year, I knew something wasn’t right with him, and you put it into words.
-macayla-
LikeLike
It’s your idea. I’m happy to leave it up. That’s a battle to be fought I am sure. But right now I am following a CS Lewis dictum: The first step in dealing with anything is to know what it is.
LikeLike
That’s fine – you’re the man. Feel free to remove my suggestion above for a 95 theses thing too if you think that it is not helpful. (I notice you removed the trolling!)
LikeLike
I agree with you, but I hope you can see that my appeal to evangelical bloggers is not for the sake of defending reformed creeds vs Pentecostal creeds.
It’s simply identifying Osteen as what he is: A non-evangelical with a non-Christian message. In fact, I don’t want to discuss that statement of faith, because it implies Osteen is doing theology. He’s not. LISTEN TO HIM. There is no Gospel and no theology. He’s Oprah. He’s Tony Robbins.
LikeLike
So… are you saying that the quote “The proclamation of the Gospel comes after individuals have opened their hearts to God and turned from themselves to others. Only then are they truly ready to hear and benefit fully from the Word of the Lord.” isn’t the reason why we never hear him preach the Gospel? Surely this means that his teachings about feeling happy and living a wonderful life act as the “hook” to get people in to the gospel?
It is almost as though the Gospel is not the thing that saves – it is as though he needs the happiness teaching to draw people to the gospel (if what that statement from his website is true)
Different from Paul – he knew nothing but Christ and him crucified.
LikeLike
Oversight— I appreciate the post and the info, but I am not looking to argue with Pelagians or Pentecostals or Arminians. I am not arguing Calvinism with non-Calvinists. I accept the Christian profession of non-Calvinists.
My issue with Osteen is the Gospel itself. Not some version of the Gospel.
LikeLike
Alas… I am contributing yet more.
The website for Lakewood church and its history is http://www.lakewood.cc/history.htm
On this page I found a few incredible things, including their statement of faith which is as follows:
WE BELIEVE…
• The Bible is the inspired and only infallible and authoritative Word of God. Salvation has been provided and is available for people through Jesus Christ. Through His sacrifice on the cross, we can die to our sinful nature and be born again to a new life of purity and power.
• Water Baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• The Baptism in the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:4, is given to believers who ask for it, provides power to live a sanctified and holy life and to be effective in service to God.
• As children of God, we are overcomers and conquerors and have authority over the devil and his works.
Notice in no.1 that he states that Christ’s death on the cross allows us to be “born again to a new life of purity and power.” What he is preaching about is this life of power.
Notice in no.3 that he follows a classic pentecostal position.
And no. 4 – well, typical.
But this is interesting stuff. It is their rationale for how they run their services:
• We minister to the Lord in worship. Each service begins with joyous songs of praise, prayer and worship.
• We minister to people. We pray for the sick, comfort the hurting and sorrowful, encourage the weak and weary, and reach out in love to those who need a friend.
• We minister the Word of God. The proclamation of the Gospel comes after individuals have opened their hearts to God and turned from themselves to others. Only then are they truly ready to hear and benefit fully from the Word of the Lord.
WHOAH NELLY! Look at that third point. What this is saying is that they only preach the gospel to those who have chosen to open their hearts and serve God and others. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, THIS IS PELAGIANISM. It assumes that people have within themselves the ability to repent and be saved, and that after this has occurred then the Holy Spirit will come and dwell in them. Pure heresy.
LikeLike
Hello again all.
I have written a sort of 95 theses type thing. Perhaps we can all use this on our websites as a standard “belief statement” or something. I’ve based it on the wording of the Cambridge Declaration (which, if you don’t know what it is, should go and find out).
I’ve placed it under a creative commons license that allows no modification but does allow for commercial usage. This means that people can freely publish it in books and/or webpages.
What I’d like to do is work together in a Wikipedia sort of way to refine what I’ve written. What you see below is my first draft. If we all think this is a good idea, we can continue to work on it until we get something that we’re all proud to put our names to.
Introduction
We, the undersigned, believe with our whole hearts that we have been guided by the Holy Spirit, through His work in the divine scriptures, to make the following statements regarding the ministry of Joel Osteen:
1. We affirm that it is the duty of every Christian preacher to expound and explain to his audience the meaning and true application of the Holy Scriptures. We affirm that preaching should be mainly expository in nature, with the preacher examining and applying texts from scripture in a systematic manner. We affirm that through this process of reading and studying the word of God, that the Holy Spirit will undeniably work in the hearts of all who hear.
We deny that the ministry of Joel Osteen reflects any of these points that we affirm. We deny that Joel Osteen preaches a message that is based in scripture, and we deny that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of those who listen.
2. We affirm that it is the duty of every Christian preacher and teacher to base his message firmly in the gospel. We affirm that preaching the gospel involves the explicit mention of Jesus Christ, who is lord and King over all. We affirm that the message of the gospel is proclaimed when Christ’s penal substitionary atonement is explained. We affirm that the gospel is proclaimed whenever faith in Christ’s work is solicited. We affirm that the message of the gospel must be present in every and any Christian sermon.
We deny that the Ministry of Joel Osteen is one in which the gospel is proclaimed. We deny that the basis of Joel Osteen’s message is the Gospel of Christ. We deny that all people who “become Christians” through Osteen’s ministry came to faith through his preaching, and we seriously doubt the true nature of their conversion.
3. We affirm that Satan is working in our world today to draw people away from hearing the gospel. We affirm that Satan will do all he can to confuse and misdirect the church. We affirm that Satan will often use preaching that people are willing to hear, so long as that message is not based upon the Word of God and does not contain the Gospel.
We deny that Joel Osteen is preaching a message that would offend Satan. We deny that Joel Osteen is preaching a message that will lead people into heaven. We deny that the Holy Spirit will use Osteen’s message to create in God’s people a greater love and understanding of God and his grace. We deny that Joel Osteen preaches a message that enables believers to live an effective Christian life.
4. We affirm that the only person who a preacher should aim to please is God himself. We affirm that it is God who may grant a preacher a large congregation, or may grant him a small one.
We deny the belief that a large congregation and worldly fame are indications of God’s blessings for a particular person’s ministry. We deny the belief that Joel Osteen’s church and international ministry is blessed by God because it is outwardly successful.
5. We affirm the belief that the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing a person to repentance and faith, and in maturing and strengthening that believer, is a work that is objective and oftentimes hidden from view. We affirm that God has given us emotions and that they are part of our human experience. We affirm that when God does work in a person’s life, that the individual may undergo subjective experiences (including the emotions of joy and happiness). We affirm that our human natures, being so riddled with sin, make our emotions and feelings untrustworthy, especially in relation to determining our relationship with God.
We deny the belief that a person who preaches a message that brings a person a subjective feeling of hope and happiness is always a message that God is using. We deny the belief that our time on earth is one in which we are showered with God’s temporal blessings and that it is His will that our earthly lives are ones in which God expects us to be happy.
6. We affirm the belief that it is God who is active and we who are passive. We affirm that God has chosen to bless us, and that there is nothing we can do to obtain God’s blessings from him. We affirm that Christ is the greatest blessing given to all of mankind, and that those who have Christ have “every spiritual blessing” from God.
We deny the belief that God is willing to bless us, but is unable to because we do not have enough faith or love directed towards him. We deny the belief that Christ is merely the beginning of our blessings as Christians. We deny the belief that a Christian needs to work harder at his or her faith in order to obtain more blessings from God.
7. We affirm that in many places and in many churches, God’s people can be found. We affirm that many who follow the teachings of Joel Osteen are true believers who will share eternal life with us. We affirm that it is our responsibility to warn our fellow believers to reject any teaching that is not from God.
We deny that Joel Osteen is the only preacher, and that his church is the only church, where God’s truth is not promclaimed and revered. We deny that our words here are intended solely to those who are ministered to by Joel Osteen, and that our assertions be applicable to all churches all over the world that do not proclaim God’s Word, nor preach His Gospel.
Date…
Signatories:
Neil Cameron, Newcastle, Australia
(This document is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs License)
LikeLike
Aaron- thank you! That discussion thread has knocked me over, Hinn style. No offense to Buddhists! If that doesn’t say it all…!!!
LikeLike
“JOEL OSTEEN IS ONE OF THE BEST, MOST ENTHUSIASTIC,CHRISTIAN SPEAKERS OF OUR TIME. I AM A CATHOLIC AND LOVE MY RELIGION BECAUSE IT OFFERS A WAY TO BRING GOD DOWN TO US AND US UP TO GOD, THROUGH THE SACRAMENTS. JOEL DOES SOMETHING ELSE. ITS NOT TO DETRACT FROM MY RELIGION, IT ADDS TO IT.”
Now the Catholics like him too…
LikeLike
This is directly copied from Aaron’s site (mentioned above). Look what this BUDDHIST says about him:
# a Buddhist Says:
May 12th, 2004 at 12:41 am
“I was born and raised Buddhist from Thailand, but I listen to Joel OsteenÂ’s program every Sunday night and try not to miss it. I think he is a very good preacher, make me believe more that all religions teach people the same, to do good, to be nice to all people, to do to others what you want others to do to you..same as in Buddhism. I do believe firmly that it is humanÂ’s background and past experience as well as exposure to hatred behavious that make human hate each other.
Thanks so much Pastor Osteen —I really do enjoy listening to youÂ…”
That’s a clincher – Osteen’s preaching makes a Buddhist feel good about being a Buddhist.
LikeLike
I couldn’t get past about 10 of those comments, Aaron. Pass out the Kool-Aid Jim…I mean Joel!
LikeLike
You’d be amazed at allll the Osteen-fans that have commented on my old Osteen post:
http://www.aaronandstacia.com/aaron/joel-osteen/
LikeLike
Consider all the dates in the following link opportunities for street-preaching, tracting, conversing, praying, etc.:
http://www.joelosteen.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5155
LikeLike
Sorry, rationale, but watering down the gospel to some positive thinking message is NOT an insignificant thing.
And it does sound like that what Osteen is doing. Take this crap definition of faith from the beliefnet interview:
“God works where thereÂ’s faith. And faith to me is having a positive outlook, believing that things are going to get better, and expecting good things in life.”
Dang, even Spong can probably do better than that.
Too much crap goes on with an evangelical label slapped on it. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Michael.
LikeLike
hmmm… we’ve got to the point where other “Christians” are walking in and abusing us. No commentary, no arguments, not even any attempt to engage in some form of intellectual debate. Just abuse.
I suppose it is all part of the problem.
If I was premillennial I would honestly wonder whether JO is the antichrist. Seeing as I am a boring old Amill Reformed guy, I’ll have to settle with the assertion that JO is just AN antichrist.
LikeLike
You people are all a bunch of fruits. Glad your lives are so perfect that you have so much time to spend on such insignificant things.
LikeLike
OlG – I loved your post! It made me laugh. God bless you brother.
Liberal theology decimated the church generations ago. It turned mainstream denominations away from the gospel and into.. well, nothing really. The congregationalists and Presbyterians in the USA were deeply affected by the silencing of the gospel in their churches.
I see EXACTLY the same thing going on here. Except that instead of the gospel being silenced in mainstream denominations, it is now being silenced in exactly the place where it hurts – within churches and Christian organizations that have the ear and respect of the evangelical world. The fact is that evangelicals in America (and in the rest of the world including my country, Australia) have lost the gospel. This is a tragedy of epic spiritual proportions.
“When the Word of God is explained,
and the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed,
the Holy Spirit is not constrained.”
Osteen and others, ranging from the Hinns to the Haggards to the Schullers, are not preaching the gospel and are not preaching the word. Therefore, their churches are bereft of the Spirit and are actively quenching his work.
By the way – did anyone know that Ted Haggard, the so called leader of American evangelicals – adheres to open theism? This is just another indicator.
LikeLike
Osteen and company appeared on the front page of today’s Washington Post, and, well, I thought, here goes a latter-day “power of positive thinking” fluffy-bunny Christian.
I’m sure that many of the mainline Protos who read the Post as their Gospel just love the “I’m ok, you’re ok” approach.
I’m old school: No Cross; No Crown. This remark, by the way, usually garners puzzled looks from the fluffy bunnies I try to engage. It’s Roman Catholics who mostly affirm this, by the way. Mainline Protestants seem to have moved on to some “higher” plane of understanding of the Gospel…one that doesn’t seem to include any notion of sin or repentance of sin.
The Osteen kind of megachurch pablum seems to spread like kudzu. But, hey, I’m ok…how about you?
LikeLike
WhoaÂ…Â….! LetÂ’s back this wagon up for a minute. Just for the fun of it IÂ’ll pick on one particularly “poster”: One Salient Oversight. Really now, is “…the church is in for a very, very big fall”? “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18). Gates are defensive. So Jesus is not telling us that the church will withstand the attack of hell (which it will by implication), but rather that not even hell can withstand the force of the gospel. The Church will not fail; we have GodÂ’s Word on that. (Why OSO would get upset about Osteen affecting Australia, when by his own figures it is already 95% pagan, escapes me. Maybe OsteenÂ’s gospel would at least civilize them further and raise AustraliaÂ’s standing on the “Human Development Index”, of which OSO is proud. TheyÂ’re already ahead of the USA. So much for fun at OSOÂ’s expense. I already know heÂ’s going to get me back but good.)
Returning to a serious vein, letÂ’s not forget that ALL (thought IÂ’d shout) of GodÂ’s elect will be redeemed (2 Peter 3:9). All believers will persevere until the end. Any believer led astray by Osteen will be brought back as the believer is conformed to the image of Christ.
Does this mean that I think that we shouldnÂ’t bother exposing Osteen and his teaching? YouÂ’d know that is not my position if you read OlÂ’Geezer posts on the Dobson DoesnÂ’t Represent Me thread. But it does mean we should act rationally.
Blasting Osteen all over the blogsphere will only increase his popularity. He tells people what they want to hear (he tickles their ears) and telling people that he’s not preaching the gospel will not bother them in the least. He’ll just put on his persecution face. By his own admission most people think he’s a prosperity preacher, so few evangelical leaders will give him any thought. As to size of the membership of his “church”, it may be the largest, but there are others of comparable size. Warren’s comes to mind (and regardless of what you think of Warren he’s not going to associate with Osteen). There are others in Texas and I recall that N. Phoenix Baptist is of that size. In the Atlanta area we have Creflo Dollar’s World Changers which I think has had 25,000 members for years. So to me size is not very relevant. I think that Osteen’s crowd will reach a peak, possibly it already has, and then as people learn that what he preaches doesn’t work, and there will be a rotation in the membership. In 5 years he might still have 30,000 members but few will be of those he has today. Rather there will be 30,000 people “on the street” saying what he teaches doesn’t work. (If you have read as many self-help books as I did as a pagan and tried to apply the principles, you’d experientially know how frustrating Osteen’s teachings are.)
So what should we do? I think an informal, loose affiliation of theologically sound individuals and organizations (imonk, John Hendryx at moneregism.com, Modern Reformation, ACE and Al Mohler immediately come to mind but I’m sure there are many more) should help assemble sound theological refutations of Osteen’s gospel. (A quick google search shows that there are already people writing in opposition to Osteen.) It is to be hoped that the result would be logical and simple so that Osteen’s errors could be explained to the theologically untutored. As it is, what is being said now is “he doesn’t mention Jesus”, “he doesn’t preach the gospel,” and so forth, which are true and regrettable, but it is also regrettable that these don’t register much with many church members and those that follow Osteen.
(If you write Christianity Today and charge Osteen with not being an evangelical, within six months theyÂ’ll devote an issue to making him an evangelical hero.)
LikeLike
Thanks for posting this note with the links to the two interviews. I linked to your note at my occasional blog.
May God spare his church!
LikeLike
many thoughts, but i’ll keep them for the post.
LikeLike
Only in America…the likes of Joel Osteen would only work with an audience (church, nation) that celebrates things over the people, the material over the spiritual. Is Christianity really about this world or the promise of another? Ever wonder why the church is “healthy” in China? Why there is joy in the churches in Haiti? Give the guy his talk show. But don’t don’t confuse the gospel with his drivel.
LikeLike
I think Joel Osteen is the perfect poster boy for the American church. In a country where 25,000+ pastors have given their pulpits over to Rick Warren, a purported SBC pastor, then Osteen is what they deserve. He’s only a little bit out ahead of the curve that Warren, Hybels, and Barna are on, so there’s gonna be some animosity that he’s winning the numbers game, but you can’t argue with success, can you? Not in pragmatic America you can’t.
LikeLike
RE: your latest addition about the request for a Matthew 18 reconciliation…
I find it deeply ironic that people from churches that don’t practice congregational church discipline (and that’s what Matthew 18 is about, discipline about sin) trot that verse out the minute someone from outside their church criticizes their man. Physicians, heal thyselves.
LikeLike
I need a list of other “evangelicals” if Joel is one.
Oprah. Tony Robbins…In fact, why don’t we just say this is the list of God’s messengers for the times in which we live. http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Business_to_Business/Speakers/Motivational/
LikeLike
I’ll go ahead and say it: why on earth would anyone call this poseur an evangelical? That would presume that he preaches the euangelion – the Gospel.
LikeLike
Tell me, those here who are defending Osteen – what makes his message so unique that you go to a church to get it? You can get tons of “buck up, think positive, and everythings gonna be OK” feedback from other venues – Oprah, the local bookstore, the Kiwanis Club, whatever.
Even a cursory read of the Bible reveals that there is a LOT more that God is concerned about besides the theme that Joel is preaching. He is – at best – being very selective about what he chooses to preach on. At worst, he is leaving out those portions of the Christian faith that may be most necessary to be heard in our time of day.
You may not like the strident tone of the responses here. But consider things from our point of view. A man is being set up by the media (evangelical and mainstream) as “the next big thing” in evangelicalism simply because he has a big congregation and he preaches a popular message. For those of us who attach some historic and doctrinal weight to the term “evangelical”, this is highly disturbing. And if what we believe is true, then Joel Osteen is not preaching the full Gospel – and that can have eternal consequences.
So, if I may make a suggestion, since some of you are obviously reading this, go back to the archives and read what else the Monk has written about the nature of the Gospel, faith, and the Christian life. Compare that with what Joel preaches. Read your Bibles. And you tell *me* who’s being faithful and who isn’t.
LikeLike
I knew I liked Osteen better than other preachers for some reason. Thanks for pointing it out!
LikeLike
But none of this is a surprise, is it? We’ve been heading in this directiong for years.
LikeLike
right on Bro!!! the first time i saw Olsteen
i thought, wow its Bono from U2 – the Macphisto
character! the hauting puppet movements,
the 1000 yard stare, the creepy smile
his timed Blink is the real killer…haha
guy gives me the willies
the original Olsteen 🙂
http://www.macphisto.net/phonecalls/photos/thumbnails.htm
LikeLike
Take issue with a specific Matt.
Did I fall asleep during the parts of the message where he preaches the Biblical Gospel?
I’ve just read a discussion thread from Osteen fans who say “yeah, he just preaches positive thinking, but that’s what we need.”
If he wants to be Oprah, fine. But those of us who love the Gospel can’t be silent Matt. This guy is going to be representing all evangelicals for years to come. WHY SHOULD I BE SILENT MATT? Tell me why I should be silent while Billy Graham and John Stott and Francis Schaeffer are succeeded by this man?
Tell the rest of us who don’t hear the Gospel from Osteen WHERE IT IS? Where is it hiding? And why shouldn’t we care?
LikeLike
If you had rather focus on fear and damnation, urge your own church to do so and don’t go to Joel Osteen’s services. If that doesn’t work, form your own church.
I love how evangelicals feel they’re always persecuted and then they persecute one of their own because they don’t like the way he goes about things.
LikeLike
I completely agree with your assessment of this guy. I read the one article/interview and not once did “Jesus” or “Christ” appear in the article. We do need to speak out!
LikeLike
In America. My bad.
LikeLike
Michael – are you sure it’s the largest church in the world? Isn’t there a rabidly Pentecostal church in South Korea that’s larger? But your point is still the same. I’ve posted it on my blog at Matt Crash! I’m also joining a group blog next week; it should get good press. I’ll make the point again when we start it up.
LikeLike
This interview is shocking….even to me. This guy makes Oprah look like Augustine. Even the interviewers are shocked at his shallowness.
Have we reached the point where a pure talking head, looking good, but saying NOTHING ABOUT THE GOSPEL is acceptable? Apparently.
It’s the largest church in the world. Great music and 30,000 people show up tp hear this.
LikeLike
“God works where thereÂ’s faith. And faith to me is having a positive outlook, believing that things are going to get better, and expecting good things in life.”
Disgraceful. How can you mention faith without mentioning Christ?
LikeLike
Once my website is up and running I’ll do some research, write an article and raise hell (well, not literally).
This is the first time I’ve heard of Mr Osteen, and I’m sure it will only be a matter of time before he hits the bookshelves of Christians here in Australia.
Look, I’m totally fed up with modern Evangelicalism. The Holy Spirit’s work has been so quenched by idiot churches with pastors who preach another gospel that I honestly think that the church is in for a very, very big fall. At some point, the majority of people will realise that the modern evangelical movement has absolutely no credibility. Osteen is just another brick in the wall that the church is placing between the message of salvation and the hordes of unbelievers heading to hell.
Mark my words. We haven’t seen anything yet. Osteen is just the beginning.
LikeLike
absolutely
LikeLike
I’m with you, Michael. I don’t know much about Osteen myself, having never read his book or listened to a full sermon. But reading those two interviews gave me a good sampling of his Christ-less theology. Do you mind if I just post a few introductory remarks and then refer my readers to your article here? You have said it much better than I can.
LikeLike
I’m thinking it’s only a matter of day’s ’til he’s a “good friend” of Dr. Dobson.
LikeLike