No Jesus Needed

64 thoughts on “No Jesus Needed”

1. Really Sam Chelladurai uncle’s messages are so good.Pls dont blame him.Who are we to condemn other man’s servant.Just dont justify.Coz Sam uncle is so good.

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2. Dear Brothers in Christ,

   I’ve read all your posted comments. Its good to see the people being so much interested in Christ and Christ alone. I believe, this desire in us, is for God and for His Glory. He shaped that in us.

   I felt this and so writing.

   Our Father has not left us alone to be orphans, but thanks be to Him that He sent His Spirit to live within us. And now The Holy Spirit leads us into the “TRUTH” ( Jesus Himself is the TRUTH). Apart from Christ, everything is FALSE. Don’t and never believe it, don’t give chance even to think for a moment. That’s useless and worthless.

   The very purpose of every christian is to know God Who is living and to have deeper fellowship with Him. This has been gifted to us through our LORD JESUS. I don’t and I cant find any way ( any message, any method or any one ) who can help me to have the deeper fellowship with God the Father.
   I can never miss JESUS, I can never think of any other possibility out side of JESUS, cause there’s no possible way. The only WAY is JESUS.

   The better life can never be achieved by following better principles, but it can only be achieved by having CHRIST in us, cause HE is the LIFE.

   “JESUS IS THE WAY, THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH”

   I’m over whelmed in my heart after reading this, cause you all have that very deep desire to know the very purpose of GOD, WHO is your Creator.

   Let’s live for HIM, Let’s be challenged to LIVE for the King of kings and the Lord of lords. All the people, in all the generations (from Abel to the recent martyr), have stood for this TRUTH(JESUS). Let’s also live for HIM.

   Every one in the world needs JESUS. I decided this,
   let HIS Name be preached, heard and glorified in all.

   Paul preached “the CHRIST”. And he told,”It’s no longer I, but Christ”.

   But, now-a-days, there are many false prophets,preachers who’ve entered into the Kingdom of God. Many people were deceived and went after them. (1Tim 4:1-6).

   As these are the last days, the satan will appear like an ‘angel of light’, which is very similar to the appearance of the our Lord’s. But the way to find out is ‘the wounds’. Jesus has those wounds, bacuase He was wounded for our sins.

   If no cross, no salvation. No meaning in gathering for any christian meetings. Its the cross of Jesus that made a covenant in between GOD and me, the wretched.

   Brothers and sisters, let’s invest our time in knowing GOD than investing it for useless and purpose-less works.

   Lets not judge anyone, because we will be judged one day. With the measure we use, will be measured back to us. Our Lord told us not to judge rather lets pray for those who did mistakes. Let’s us not be disturbed in our faith because some one did something wrong. God loved all by individually. So its important for us to keep our faith on HIM.

   But take care to follow the TRUTH(JESUS). I cant see anything out of JESUS, but GOD gave JESUS who is everything. Lets grab HIM, lets get HIM into our lives. Let our lives show HIS LIFE.

   I am sorry if I had bothered you with lengthy message.

   “As your Heavenly Father is perfect(In love,In forgiving,In caring,In all), ye also be perfect(In all).”

   In Christ,
   David Dileep

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3. Dear my friends in christ
   we dont have any right to judge other,or wasting time in thinking who is right and who is wrong so pls think about the way how we can together reach the unreached one tell them love of christ.No body is Perfect in this world Except Christ.
   so think about the ways to make the people chose the right messages.
   anu

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4. We have fallen for the lie that Jesus came to make us better. He didn’t. He came because we were dead and needed life.

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5. Hi, how I can send PM?

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6. One Mr.Leslie has written on 21.4.08 in this blog about Rev Chelladurai. His messages has the foundation from Jesus Christ only. Let me briefly say what he says. He says When God created the world He gave the command to man to RULE THE WORLD. God having created man in His image gave him the right to chose the good or evil. Even to day we all have the right to chose. Eve heard the voice of Satan and chose evil follwed by Adam. Therefore the Satan’s Rule came over the world. But Jesus Christ came in the form of man and defeated Satan on the cross and by having Christ in us and by praying in teh name of Jesus Christ we execute power over Satan and we have teh Right to Rule over the earth snatched back from Satan by Jesus Christ.
   I am sur He is glorifying Jesus Chrsit only. Either heard the sermon of Sam Chelladurai accidentaly and not his many messages.
   Hence better we stop making judgments in this world which is forbidden by Jesus Christ himself.
   V.Rajan

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7. Great post! I know I’m late reading it, but I hope to see more posts like this around the internet. I have blogged about Christless Christianity a couple of times this year (as a layperson looking for a church after moving). Here is my second post: http://mousenaround.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/more-christless-christianity/

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8. Preach on about the Gospel Brother! Have you heard of Tim Keller. Stop over to my website and check out some video of him. I like his Gospel-centric approach.

   http://spadinofamily.wordpress.com/

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9. Larry,

   I willing take no credit for this. This is 100% Issues, Etc. (RIP) and 0% mine.

   I just found that this technique that Todd uses is so good that it should be used by anyone who wants to know if they are listening to a Christian Sermon.

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10. Michael,

    Thank you for revisiting this topic and for bringing your readers’ attention to your article “On Christless Preaching”. It was this article that first brought me to your website some time ago. I share your lament over the absence of Christ in much of today’s preaching.

    Here are a couple of quotes from a priceless little book on the subject by Charles P. McIlvaine (1799-1873) entitled “Preaching Christ”. First, McIlvaine explaining that religious truth is not enough:

    “It is very possible to preach a great deal of important religious truth, and so that there shall be no admixture of important error in doctrine or precept – yea, truth having an important relation to Christ and his office – and yet not to preach Christ. The defect will be, not in the presence of what should not be there, but in the absence of that which is necessary to give all truth delivered the character of ‘truth as it is in Jesus’. Such absence, when nevertheless all is true, may be more destructive to the gospel character of the preaching than even the introduction of some positive error. The preaching may be very earnest. It may contain much that is affecting and deeply impressive – strong emotions may be stirred in the hearers. The earnest inquiry may be excited. What must we do? And yet the preaching may wholly fail in giving any such distinct answer to that question as will turn the attention of the inquirer to Christ as all his refuge. You may say a great deal about and around the gospel, and never preach the gospel” (9-10).

    Second, McIlvaine describing the disappointment of those who hunger for Christ to be present in preaching and yet find Him absent:

    “They that come to be elevated in their affections to things above, and to be fed with the bread of heaven, are sorely disappointed. They came to see Jesus. They have seen only that man in the pulpit and his empty abstractions. They asked bread, and he gave them a stone” (19).

    In Christ,

    John Ward

    In case your interested in the book:

    Charles P. McIlvaine. Preaching Christ: The Heart of Gospel Ministry. (Banner of Truth, 2003. First published 1863.)

    NOTE: The book includes the first sermon preached by Spurgeon in the Metropolitan Tabernacle, London in 1861. His text for the sermon: Acts 5:42, “And daily in the temple, and in very house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.”

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11. Oops, pasted only a sentence, sorry.

    Steve,

    That is a GREAT simple testing formula I heard via I & E about a year ago, I didn’t know it was yours, I’ve memorized that and never forgot it. I’ve passed it along to family and friends for over a year now. I have run into one problem with some peoples use of it, well really not it so much as it is people’s perception of certain words. In many of the very conservative Calvinistic pietistic SB churches we use to attend, even somewhat in reformed PCA circles that we are presently in – they would pick up on – “Is the problem that we are sinful by nature or that we make mistakes?” – right away as what they are not doing, they would not call sin “mistakes” as the softer Olsteens and such and so not guilty of “underplaying the problem”. They, however, would define and preach “sin” as either:

    1. Several notches ‘ramped’ up from and certainly not “mistakes” but “sin” at a high level but still “sin” that can “be over come” with some “law” preaching or “guilt” motivation, but never the real killing sin, not the killing hammer of God Law that breaks the rock into pieces. I’ve even seen many admit to a “sin nature” but it’s a “sin nature” that “we can work at” with “God’s grace” of course (a Protestant version of Rome’s “grace help aid”), grace here being the ever L/G confusion. It’s kind of a conservative/calvinstic/reformed pietistic “ramp up” by magnitudes of “mistakes” to “sin” per se – but its not really sin nor preaching of sin. They consider themselves true sin preachers because their idea of “sin” is definitely higher than “mistakes” or the Olstean/Warren problem, but its hardly the sin Luther preached of.

    From these types of sermons the words from hearers is often, “Boy I was convicted by that sermon”, meaning, “I need to straighten up more, pull myself up more by my boot straps”. Not conviction that is a hammer of God Law moment.

    2. The other variety of sub “sin” preaching that is not referred to as “mistakes” (because they would say ‘mistakes’ is TO TOO soft a term), and this often goes hand in hand with #1 is defining “sin” as mostly those “negative” things like lust and etc…that even pagans recognize as “wrong”. There’s NEVER the biblical idea that sin really means a thoroughly impacted nature that is INWARDLY CURVED IN UPON ITSELF so that “positive” things are sin, often time GREATER sin that bars a man from grace.

    As such the “gospel” is always less too, some form of Jesus + you doing something. The ones that preach this way usually see the Rich Young Ruler as a Gospel passage, usually. To me the “mistake” crowd is more closely aligned with pure Pelagianism (don’t even need God’s help), while the ramped up “sin” but not inward curved crowd (your typical today conservative/some Calvinistic groups that lean into pietism) are more aligned with the semi-pelagian (need God’s help called grace) view in principle.

    I love that short analytical though, this is not a disparagement of that, just something I’ve observed in “more conservative/Calvinistic” preaching circles.

    Yours/Blessings,

    Larry KY

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12. Is the problem that we are sinful by nature or that we make mistakes?

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13. Over a year ago, I wrote a posting to ExtremeTheology.com called “Christian Worship: Christ centered preaching”

    http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/03/christian_worsh.html

    In this post, I wrote on how to determine if the pastor is preaching a Christian sermon:

    Many sermons that preached today are not Christ centered messages. Many pastors have replaced the message of the cross with a focus on the Christian life, society or other issues that are not the Gospel. Rev. Todd Wilkins, host of Issues, Etc. radio program has developed a good test to determine if the sermon that the pastor preaches is a Christ centered sermon. Here we are focusing on what the pastor says, not the delivery style or their ability to effectively communicate or entertain an audience, but the content of what is being said. This set of questions is a tool that you can use when listen to a sermon. Content is everything in a sermon!

    1. How often is Jesus mention?
    2. If Jesus is mentioned, is He the subject of the verbs?
    3. What are those verbs?

    First, if Jesus is not mentioned, then you know that this is not a Christ centered sermon and not a Christian sermon. Jesus can be mentioned in his various names and titles. Just because Christ is mentioned, doesn’t make the sermon a Christian sermon, especially if the Gospel is not present nor proclaimed.

    Second, when Jesus is mentioned, is he the subject of the verbs? In every sentence, there is a subject and a verb. If Jesus isn’t the subject, then who is? If Jesus isn’t the subject of the verbs, then this cannot be a Christ centered sermon. When someone other than Christ is the subject of the sentence, then Christ cannot be the focus of the sermon.

    Next, look at the verbs associated with Jesus in the sermon. Are the verbs associated with Jesus passive or active? Is Jesus doing the action or is he being acted upon? If Jesus isn’t the active player in the verbs, then who is? If the pastor is placing the individual as the active player, then this sermon is not a Gospel sermon. For example, “Jesus is waiting for you to give your life to him” places Jesus as the passive player and the individual as the active player. If the pastor says “Jesus has saved you and gives you life” he is placing Jesus as the active player and you as the passive player. This is very important since the Gospel is not about what we do for Christ, but what Christ has already done for us.

    At the end of the sermon, ask yourself these to questions: “What is our problem that the pastor has identified in their sermon?” and “What is the solution for our problem?” Is the problem that we are sinful by nature or that we make mistakes? How the pastor defines our problem is critical to how Christ is part of the solution. His definition of the problem also impacts the roll of Christ in the solution. If the problem is anything less than man’s sinful nature and being dead to God, then the problem the pastor defines isn’t the same problem that the bible defines are our problem.

    What is the solution that the pastor provides? If the solution is to “Give your heart to Jesus” or “Change your attitude” places the focus on the individual as the source of the solution. This is not a Christ centered sermon but a human centered sermon. The Biblical solution is always what Christ has done for you on the cross.

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14. Friends:

    My name is Leslie Jebaraj, an Indian Christian living in southern India. The Osteenized gospel is fast coming to India, not only via DAYSTAR and GOD TV, but from our own Indian preachers who want to ape Osteen and the like, (and become rich). There is one Rev. Sam Chelladurai in my city, Chennai, who is very articulate both in English and Tamil, and a devout follower of Hagin and Copeland. He is doing heck a lot of damage, and gullible Christians fall for him in numbers. Very few here are Biblical preachers. We are in a sorry state, too.

    (Just wanted to vent out my feelings).

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15. Michael, Thank you so much for being one who laments some of the same things I do. In an age when Christians see and enemy around every corner, be it Oprah, Obama, or Osama; it is refreshing to have someone remind us that our worst enemy is ourselves. We abandon the One who brought us to the dance, the One in whom we live and move and have our being, and begin to preach a different Gospel. The Gospel – the Cross of Jesus, must be paramount, and yet it seems that most of our Post Modern preaching centers around self-actualization, self-redemption, and self modification. Thanks for pulling us back toward the point – Jesus. Keep talking, brother. May the Church wake from its slumber long enough to listen

    Tim Melton
    Sacrosanct Gospel
    http://www.sacrosanctgospel.wordpress.com

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16. Michael,

    I’m getting much older now and too impatient to sugar coat it anymore, as mortality seems to show itself around me more and more and those I know, I increasingly loose my patience for these disobedient martyrs of the devil calling themselves preachers. And I don’t mean just Rick Warren and his twins, he’s an easy target.

    This is a pandemic American plague that reaches way further than the basic “born again” evangelical. One is more likely to hear the Gospel accidently in the liturgy of a Roman Catholic church, Mass and such aside, than ANY protestant church – and I’m no RC apologist at all. The “born again” evangelical churches get the most press and guff on it because they are obvious and too easy, but I’ve seen it numerous times, heard it in numerous sermons, numerous Sunday schools, numerous books since my conversion in 1997. ESPECIALLY in the life of a given church congregation that on paper and with mouth if overtly asked would profess, “We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and not by works”, but whose life and church actions proclaim LOUDER than words or confessions that “Jesus Christ is NOT NEARLY ENOUGH”. I LOST CHRIST ENTIRELY in the church system and every time it is brought up, the problem was not the preaching, why heavens no, it must be in the hearers hearing.

    I have seen it first hand in many of the baptist variants across KY from the North in and around the Louisville area, yes around dear Southern, to the south, to the central part of the State. From the standard we grew up in “First Baptist” Southern Baptist churches to particular Baptist churches, from Southern Baptist with arminian leanings/roots to Southern Baptist with Calvinistic Reformed leanings/roots; from “sovereign Grace baptist churches” to charismatic southern baptist churches. From aged white haired old ‘good ole boy’ south southern baptist preachers out of the deep south to the new breed of so called Calvinistic/reformed products now coming out of Southern. From very conservative churches to middle of the road (never attended a liberal church in my life, can only guess there). Even in “Reformed baptist circles”. From topical sermons to exceedingly Greek-ed out exegetical sermons.

    But its not just in Baptistic circles it’s in the PCA, particularly among the laymen elders and youth. One could sneak works righteousness in ANY church today and it would be hardly noticed. The Gospel, now that would immediately be recognized as an alien, especially if one could speak it in a way that is not overt old formula.

    You can get perfectly Medevil Roman Catholic works righteousness answers in any one of these and other groups, and tossed on your can if you press the Gospel too much, as if you can do that.

    I actually heard the message of the Gospel on the outside as a rank atheist more than I did or do in most churches. And by most I unapologetically mean 99.99999999999999999999% of them. Again, I’m getting much older now and too impatient to sugar coat it anymore.

    I challenge ANYONE to remove your denominational moorings and just objectively survey some churches in your state (KY here) and pick just the “best” conservative ones just to narrow down the list and pick the ones with expected “good biblical preaching”, don’t waste time on the far out there ones a dumb ape could point out. Go in and listen and survey the sermons for a few Sundays, then visit another, then another, then another. Keep the objective data somewhere.

    Use some simple objective measure like Rev. Todd Wilkins’ of LCMS background simple Gospel sermon set of question to keep it more simple and objective in analysis. Analyze it objectively:

    1. How many times was Christ/Jesus name even mentioned? (Include OT types and shadows pointing to Christ here)
    2. Was He the subject or object of the verbs?
    3. What where the verbs, Jesus doing something for you or you doing for Jesus?

    Or more fundamentally was Jesus GIVEN TO/FOR YOU in the liturgy/sermon/sacraments or were you left with SOMETHING TO DO in order to make it happen. Did the divine service, if it was that at all, have God SERVING you or were you to ‘muster and gin’ something UP to heaven to bewitch God into action? Did you REALLY hear of GRACE so alien it shocked you into almost disbelieving it, a God revealed at the Cross FOR YOU in particular leaving you jaw dropping on the floor, “So that is what God is like”; or did you basically hear the same thing a Muslim would agree with just using “Christianese” and “Bible” terms.

    One will be SHOCKED, maybe not now days, that Christ and Him Crucified is FAR from what they only seek to know among us. Don’t count it when they just use the terms, evangelism, because there’s a difference in a sermon about what Christ did for us (the evangel being actually GIVEN) and the idolatrous -ism of preaching about evangelism. One could literally take these so called Christian “sermons” leaving the verbs and sentence structure in tact and change the nouns in them to ANY given religion’s names and terminology and as to content, substance and message NOT HAVE CHANGED THEM ONE BIT! “Giving all your heart to Jesus” is not one wit different from “giving all your heart to Zeus”, “giving all your heart to Allah”, “giving all your heart to Buddha”, “giving all your heart to _________”. All these gods don’t give you a thing, these are not the God on the Cross revealed, that is the real Jesus Christ. “What Would Jesus Do”, “What Would Zeus Do”, “What Would Allah Do”, “What Would Jesus Buddha do”…all the same message.

    Paul warned us beware of other “gods”, no, “other Christs, other Jesus, other Gospels”. He used those Christian/biblical terms because he knew, that is the Holy Spirit spoke through him to let us know that the GREATER or GREATEST danger really doesn’t lay in the gods outside the church walls with names like Zeus, Allah or Buddha, but those false gods IN the church walls who have been blasphemously given the name “Christ, Jesus and/or Gospel”. The devil will not fool a Christian with, “believe in Zeus”, but he will deceive with a jesus that doesn’t do FOR YOU, a Gospel that’s not overtly works righteousness but “Jesus + a little subtle something else”.

    Larry KY

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17. Amen.

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18. This surmises succinctly my last experience in “church” to see my nephew sing at an extremely large, extremely successful church body that has dropped the Baptist appellation.
    It was nice and made me feel good. I only realized later that the name of Christ had not been mentioned nor any invitation or challenge issued.
    The cross is an offense (Galatians 5:11) to the religious!
    I Corinthians 1:23

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19. As one having moved from a Baptist church that (inadverdantly?) preached Chrisitan moral’s and biblical principles for living to a Presbyterian church that consistently preaches the gospel of grace through faith in Christ alone, I must say that one may not know what one is missing until one makes such a change.

    I must say that years ago, I would have turned my nose up at such liturgical practices as responsively reading confessions, catechism’s and, of course, scripture during the worship service; reciting the Lord’s prayer. I thought it mechanical and devoid of the “spirit.” Now, I see that it is essential (for me anyway) because it is nothing more or less than focusing on the gospel – cutting out all the unnecessary fluff that so easily distracts from Jesus.

    My life has changed radically since I’ve begun feeding on the pure gospel for over 2 years now. I have also learned that it is absolutely necessary and vital for believers to hear and study the pure gospel as often as possible, for it is far too easy to slide off into pharisaism or antinomianism.

    Christless preaching is a scourge on the church. This blog is one of the best resources to remind oneself of the pure gospel of grace on a daily basis.

    Keep up the good work Michael and keep the gospel pure as you have thus far done.

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20. Man, to this missional/reformed/charismatic you still sound like a Calvinist to me, and I read your every blog. I guess that means you’re ‘post-Calvinist’ or ‘post-postCalvinist’? Keep the good stuff coming, whatever label you prefer.

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21. Anna, that is a GREAT question. I actually have not seen anyone address this problem from that angle: what should Joe and Jane Congregant do about this problem.

    In the blogosphere and in print it’s essentially been a pastor-to-pastor, theologian-to-theologian issue. What do the folks in the pew do about this.

    I would love to read Michael’s answer to that, but I’m going to take a stab at it myself, as I’ve recently been in a position to decide what exactly I should do about it.

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22. Re the title:

    Who needs Jesus when you have Young Earth Creationism Uber Alles, Pin-the-Tail-on-the-Antichrist, and Culture War scolding and denunciations of everything in-between?

    (And Joel Osteen, and “Just like Oprah, Except CHRISTIAN…” So many buses, and if you get on any, all the others will run you over.)

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23. Question (if this isn’t off topic)

    What do we, in the pew, do about this?

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24. The problem with a lot of preaching is the assumption that to be relevant we have to communicate a pew-centric “gospel” in 21st century terms, devoid of heritage, theology, or, yes, Jesus. I recently choked on the realization that I’d fallen into the trap of building a pack of Christian narcissists rather than leading a body of disciples of Jesus. Amazing the “relevant,” “practical” turnaround that has taken place since then.

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25. Yes, dumb ox, you are a backslider.

    Glad to have you aboard!

    – Steve

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26. I’m glad Andrew mentioned Good Shepherd Sunday. That really is a testimony to the power of church calendars and lectionaries (I’m not Anglican, but I probably heard a very similar message at my church).

    I wonder if Christless preaching has less to do with church growth and more to do with a general misunderstanding of the gospel and who gets to hear it. I know pastors who believe there is no reason to preach the gospel if no visitors are showing up on Sunday. The implication is that only “sinners” (those who haven’t prayed the sinner’s prayer) are given the gospel; the rest of us get “teaching” … or reprimands for not inviting guests. Those who need to hear the gospel more than once are labeled backsliders.

    I need to hear the gospel every Sunday. I need to hear the words of forgiveness. I need to hear teaching, exhortations to a holy life, and encouragement to invite friends to church, but I need them in the context of the gospel – that without faith it is impossible to please God, that anything not done in faith is sin (faith in Christ, not in my own abilities or positive attitude).

    I need to start and end every day with the sinner’s prayer. I need to go forward to “receive Jesus” every Sunday. If that makes me a backslider, so be it.

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27. Lucy said: “I firmly believe that if every church’s focus was on teaching believers about Christ and both defining and encouraging holiness, there would be no need for church marketing or for “lures” to get people to come, pretty please, to church.”

    How true, how true! Churches market, market, market, and thereby send the not so subtle message to non-believers that the truth and significance of the Gospel is, in and of itself, so dull and lifeless that no sane person would want to hear it without some sort of extras. But I guess if you take Christ out of it, it does become pretty dull and lifeless, doesn’t it?

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28. Thank you vynette. Interesting ideas that I’m sure some find appealing.

    I will not post replies to Vynette. email her. If the Holy Blood, Holy Grail type thing interests you.

    I will post no further comments on the topic she’s raised. It isn’t germane to the discussion of this post in any way.

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29. Fantastic.

    I came preaching Christ and Christ crucified.

    Fix your eyes on Jesus.

    He is before all…

    In Him all things are held together.

    Amen and amen.

    Jesus-less preaching is faithless and vanity. If I were to do [insert anything] but have not love….

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30. Hmmm… sounds like you heard a post-evangelical sermon. By definition an evangelical sermon would have oozed Christ from every point and illustration. And really it’s not all that new of an issue. Christ-less preaching has shown up here and there throughout the history of the church. Eventually someone figures out that something is missing and an awakening breaks out.

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31. Michael, my point in answering Rick Frueh’s comment as I did was not to ‘derail’ the topic but to stress that the Christian focus on doctrinal issues can truly blind us to the reality of such questions as the one you posed – “Where is the Kingdom of God and its crucified, risen and exalted King…”

    Both Old and New Testament authors, building and enlarging upon the expectations of their predecessors, worked in sequence towards an ultimate goal; the establishment of an ideal kingdom; the Kingdom of God on earth to be ruled over by an earthly king.

    The ‘mystery’ doctrines of the Trinity, the Miraculous Incarnation, and the various ‘divinity’ teachings serve no purpose other than to confuse the issues and to make understanding of this ‘kingdom’ plan impossible.

    The New Testament teachings on the Kingdom of God were radical, and if we are to understand what is actually required of followers of Jesus, then we need a radical rethink of the post-apostolic, post-New Testament doctrines which remove the Kingdom and its King to some other place.

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32. “I wonder if Muslims write blogs about Muhammad-less preaching. Do other religions have this same problem?”

    We can only hope so!

    – Steve Martin

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33. “Jesus’ first sermon called for people to repent and believe the gospel. If Jesus thought believing the gospel message was the most important thing for people to hear, why should we beleive any different.”

    Michael, I can say stuff like that, and not come off sounding as angry as you do. I believe the gospel is the central theme of the entire Bible. But it sounds mean when you write it.

    I wonder if Muslims write blogs about Muhammad-less preaching. Do other religions have this same problem?

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34. I learn a new verb tonight “Osteenized.” Never heard the term before, but with a dear mom (who is an Osteen junkie) I know the meaning by heart. Great use of it!

    I think, back in the early 70s, there must have been an “Pealeized” verb:>)

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35. I went to an Anglican church this morning where because of the lectionary we had to think about Jesus as the Good Shepherd. No word about living the best life now, just the the loving care of the perfect shepherd who meets us in our pain and weakness. Sweet, sweet grace.

    I second dumb ox’s thanks for directing us to the Indelible Grace materials, which are currently working a quiet revolution in my congregation in the way we sing and praise.

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36. I read your original article. To be honest, I am so out of touch with evangelical preaching. While I’ve heard of the people you mention, I’ve never read anything by them or heard any of their teachings. Reading this makes me sad because this was not my experience (that I can recall) from when I was an evangelical. One pastor in particular at the church I grew up in regularly used the OT to illustrate the truth of Jesus.

    I totally agree with your conclusion to this post. I firmly believe that if every church’s focus was on teaching believers about Christ and both defining and encouraging holiness, there would be no need for church marketing or for “lures” to get people to come, pretty please, to church. What should draw people to church is Jesus Christ our Lord and all that He is and gives: salvation, healing from sin, holiness, fellowship in the Church, which is His Bride, the list goes on.

    Great post and great original article. I hope that your message is heard.

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37. I won’t be banning anyone for expressing those views, but I will say that I am not planning to derail this discussion of my post onto a discussion of vynette’s topic. Posts that are off topic won’t pass moderation, so let’s keep that in mind.

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38. vynette – I haven’t seen you for years and true to form you openly deny the divinity of Jesus Christ which is why you are banned from many blogs. Perhaps Michael will ban you as well since you strive to cause division and to promote the spirit of anti-christ. Visit her blog Michael and you will see her heresies.

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39. Sometimes it seems to be that people so much want to prove the value of Christianity to people’s lives, and to prove the validity of Biblical principles, that they elevate the Bible to a self-help manual that has answers for everything if we follow it’s principles. While principles are well and good, sometimes they are laid out in such as way that God doesn’t even need to be in the picture.

    The longer I live, the more I see my sin nature, and that I desperately need to have Jesus in my life.

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40. It is not surprising to find Christ-less sermons predominating more and more in evangelical circles. It is not just laziness. It is merely a natural progression in a theology that has rejected the Cross as the center of the Christian faith.

    The theology of most evangelicals today is the theology of glory. Now, such a theology need not be without Christ, per se. It is just that it has no use for the Cross of Christ, nor for the cross which every Christian must bear when they follow after Christ. It wants to lift up the glory and majesty of God. It can do the same with Christ. The hymns of this theology speak endlessly of praising and glorifying God. (“Worship His Majesty”, “Lord I’ll lift your name on high” anyone?) Who could be against that?

    But this theology cannot praise God at all. It can only praise a paper God, and a paper Christ, because without the Cross, the God and the Christ that they lift up is an idol. What is there to glorify, where is God’s majesty, if there is no Cross? Once the Apostle Paul declared, “We preach Christ crucified!” But how many evangelicals can honestly say this today? “We preach Christ glorified!” they may declare. Fine. But without the Cross, Christ had no reason to be glorified, for He would never have been humiliated in the first place, that He might bear our griefs and carry our sorrows.

    Truly, it is not Christ that they first abandoned. It was His Cross. It just so happens that as time has gone on, they have come to realize that since they no longer need the cross, they really don’t need Christ either.

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41. What you describe is not a new phenomenon by any means. Forty-seven (47) years ago I visited a Methodist church in the Orlando, Florida, area for a Sunday evening service. The minister stepped into the pulpit and said, “Let us pray.” We bowed our heads. After a long pause, he said, “Amen.” The word “God” was never mentioned during the service. In the pastor’s sermon I heard no mention of Jesus, nothing from the Bible. Instead, we were treated to a recap of the preceding week’s Andy Griffith Show. We heard a whole lot about Aunt Bee, Opie, Barney Fife, but nothing at all about Jesus. The very strange thing about that church service was that there was an altar call at the end and many people went forward to kneel at the communion railing. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. If ever there was a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof, that was it. I have never stepped foot into another Methodist church. Oddly enough, Methodist churches on television nowadays sound like Baptist churches from that era (singing songs like “Heaven Came Down And Glory Filled My Soul”), and Baptist churches sound more and more like Pentecostal churches, and through it all Joel Osteen smiles and follows in that Methodist pastor’s train.

    Lord, have mercy.

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42. Rick Frueh,

    The “Word” is not Jesus. Jesus is God’s Word of Life made flesh in much the same way as Solomon was God’s Wisdom made flesh.

    The “Word of Life” was pre-existent, not Jesus.

    Nowhere in the New Testament is there a “divinity” claim made for Jesus.

    The claim arose through the Hellenist/ Latin “fathers” misunderstanding of the Hebrew term “Son of God.”

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43. I just read your first post on the topic. I never heard of the RUF (Indelible Grace Hymn) project. Thanks for sharing these resources. We do need to be reminded that there are reasons to be hopeful, that Jesus is still building His church.

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44. Michael,

    Well said, brother. Your post got me all riled up about a certain teacher in my own Church who goes about telling people how they can be the-best-version-of-themselves. (The compulsive hyphenation is his transgression, not mine.) Time to bring “Christ and him crucified” back to the center!

    W.H.

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45. It’s law because the only “salvation” in mind is saving yourself from ______________ (name typical anxiety) and the emphasis of the message is that God is telling you to do this and do that.

    It’s not in the same framework as the Gospel, but it is moralistic legalism.

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46. I find it interesting how all these ‘theological boxes’ seem to have fluid definitions.

    I too have heard a number of these motivational-speeches-masquerading-as-sermons on Christian radio although I never thought to take a broad-brush and assume that ‘most evangelicals’ were preaching in this manner. I always thought it was an individual aberration on the part of the preacher.

    To me, ‘post-evangelical’ a la Dave Tomlinson here in the UK meant permission to ask questions and even to publicly wrestle with genuine doubts without being automatically called a heretic or a liberal.

    I’m not really disagreeing with your self-definition, I just find it fascinating how slippery these words are. It almost seems that saying ‘I’m an X’ requires one to define ‘X’ anyway.

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47. I don’t hear law when I hear Osteen preach because I never sense the message is about salvation, atonement, redemption, repentence, etc. It’s simply about having a better life (as defined as getting for $ and finding better parking spots) in the here and now. It is as about me-centered as it can be. It’s like, “God, thanks for being the force on the universe, that if I listen to Joel, perhaps I may tap into…”

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48. A modern Jewish Rabbi named Jacob Neusner wrote a book in 2000 titled “A Rabbi talks with Jesus”. In this book Rabbi Neusner imagines himself sitting and listening to Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount. He listens intently to hear Jesus teach the Torah, the law. But as he listens, he hears Jesus teach such unfolding depths of the Torah that he is mesmerized when he imagines himself returning to the group of rabbis. These rabbis ask Rabbi Neusner “Did Jesus leave anything out of the Torah when He taught?”

    Rabbi Neusner replies, “No, He left nothing out”.

    The rabbis then ask Rabbi Neusner, “Did Jesus add anything to the Torah?”

    Rabbi Neusner replies, “He added only one thing, Himself.”

    And with this Rabbi Neusner admits that he cannot accept this from Jesus because if Jesus adds only Himself to the law, the Torah, it suggests that Jesus is above the law and indeed the embodiment of the law. And Rabbi Neusner says he must reject that because there is only one being above the law and that is Yahweh, God Himself. So if Rabbi Neusner is going to receive the Sermon on the Mount, he must accept Jesus as the Son of God.

    So what we have in this book written by Rabbi Neusner is evidence that even Jewish scholars who examine the gospel writings with no bias to Jesus come to the conclusion that Jesus claimed to be God even though men like Rabbi Neusner reject Him in that context. And they reject the claims of Jesus because they are scandalous and Jesus Himself is a scandalon (stumbling block – Greek).

    And the reason that Jesus is a stumbling block is that He is God and IS the law (Word). So “Christ is the end of the law(Mosaic) to everyone who belives”. Why?? Because Christ IS the law (Word) and when He is not preached you are not preaching God’s Word.

    In the beginning was the Word (law), and the Word (law) was with God and the Word (law) was God. And The Word (law) became flesh and dwelt among us.

    Steve is correct in this, Jesus is greater than Moses and the law given to Moses was weak and destined for abolishment because the divine Law, the Incarnate Torah, came to earth and now we preach God’s Word/Law crucuified and risen again for our sins. No one who does not preach and lift up Christ is preaching a Christian message. And alluding to my comments in a previous thread, that is why Communion must have a central place in our gatherings for worship because it emblemizes and memorializes the Incarnate Torah and provides in ceremonial form the gospel itself.

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49. Michael,

    Slowly…but surely!

    (just kidding you)

    – Steve

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50. Well, let’s be careful here. I don’t want anyone to think I’ve gone over to Steve’s version of law/Gospel. There are commands that are completely compatible with being a disciple of Jesus and living according to Jesus’ teachings.

    What I heard in this sermon was “the law” as “do better, work harder, be more productive, have a great life. No love your neighbor, wash feet, have compassion. It was thoroughly Osteenized.

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51. “…you should feel terrible that you are a lazy, stressed out, loser who doesn’t have a good life. Where’s your good life? Huh? Huh? Yeah, you!”

    In Christ…maybe?…(says the beggar)
    Awww…that’s too easy. Let’s get you on a project! Start you on the road to spiritual bliss and earthly prosperity!

    The law certainly works. The huge barns that are packed to the gills are a testimony to that fact. The law works…temporarily.

    Thanks I.M.

    – Steve

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52. Recent White Horse Inn programs have done a good job on expounding the “law lite” of the Christless/Osteen preaching paradigm.

    I hoped I made it clear in the post that all that was left in this motivational talk was law: you should feel terrible that you are a lazy, stressed out, loser who doesn’t have a good life. Where’s your good life? Huh? Huh? Yeah, you!

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53. “…shows up wearing a Moses suit.”

    Sounds like something Steve Taylor might write!

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54. “Where I’m from, the rage isn’t that He doesn’t show up, it’s that He shows up wearing a Moses suit. In essence, there is still no Jesus. Not the Jesus that we need.”

    I think Steve is correct. The only thing worse than no Jesus, is the wrong (or a fake) Jesus being proclaimed.

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55. Rick laid it out well. Besides, Jesus has all that stuff about denying ourselves, taking up our cross, losing our lives to find life in him, etc. No wonder many opt for the latest “Home Improvement” series, or “7 Easy Steps to Financial Security or Better Dating” ad nauseum.

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56. I am so sorry to hear of this abandonment of Christ in so-called Christian preaching. For Luther, all the scripture pointed to Christ. “Where the Scriptures are, there is also Christ himself, presently speaking and powerfully acting. In fact, the entire Scriptures are called ‘word of Christ.’ But he is not only the author of Scripture; he is also its center” (Lutheran Wiki, Lutheran Orthodoxy,http://www.lutheranwiki.org/Lutheran_Orthodoxy).

    It’s all about Him. Thank you for your always thought and faith provoking posts, Michael.

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57. Michael:

    Thank you for the post.

    It reminded me of Finney’s 1871 sermon titled “Preaching So As To Convert Nobody” that Keith Green reprinted in his “Last Days Newsletter” years ago. I don’t agree with everything Finney represents, but here’s a sample from that sermon:

    “1. Let your supreme motive be to increase your own popularity — then, of course, your preaching will be suited for that purpose, and not to convert souls to Christ.”

    “…14. Preach the Gospel as a remedy, but conceal or ignore the fatal disease of the sinner.”

    “…22. Do not rebuke the worldly tendencies of the church, lest you should hurt their feelings, and finally convert some of them.”

    “…41. Select your themes and so present them as to attract and flatter the wealthy, aristocratic, self-indulgent extravagant, pleasure-seeking classes, and you will not convert any of them to the cross-bearing religion of Christ.”

    Reference:
    http://www.charlesgfinney.com/1868_75Independent/710907_preaching.htm

    There’s nothing new under the sun. Someone took liberalism, removed explicit assaults on scripture, diety of Christ, and miracles, added a few buzz words, then put it in a slick marketing package. On top that, it seems to “work”! How can one argue with numbers?

    I do see an interesting link between this post and earlier ones discussing the significance of a salvation experience or decision. A sermon which does not challenge us and set tension between Christ, the world and our current condition is a misrepresentation of the gospel. Jesus made people uncomfortable. He challenge the way people thought, what they believed, and how they lived. He left them in a crisis for which He alone was the resolution. Some chose to follow; most walked away.

    Preaching feel-good sermons without mentioning Jesus might succeed in making “seekers” comfortable, and may even provide superficial improvements to their lives. But they have been spared an encounter with Christ, and therefore go home unchanged. But, hey! They’ll be back for the usher to count next Sunday.

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58. Being the parent of a handicapped child, it is always annoying to listen to any “Best Life Now” type of preaching. All this talk about reaching your potential and partering with God as if it’s all about us. Whenever I hear someone going down that road, I just glance over at my 15 year old Down Syndrome son. More than it being about the stronger becoming stronger, the wealthier becoming more wealthy, etc., its about the broken, weak and needy.

    And that’s why Jesus can’t be yanked out of the message. He came to mend and heal our souls, and reconnect our hearts to God. That’s the message of the church, and more specifically, the pulpit.

    Jesus IS the message in everything, even when the preacher speaks about marriage, finances, calling, parenting, etc.

    I like the term that Mark Dever used to describe how the life of the church should be: Gospel-centric.

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59. No Jesus = No atonement
    No Jesus = No cross
    No Jesus = No resurrection
    No Jesus = Not Christian

    FIRST EVANGELICAL CHURCH OF BABYLON

    We welcome you. Come in and find improvement for your life on every level because God wants you to succeed. Get rid of your bills, get rid of your ills, get rid of your pills, climb all the hills, enjoy all the thrills, God has created Himself for you. This is your atonement in the post modern world!

    Visitors welcome.

    SUNDAY SCHOOL

    Rearranging a Biblical portfolio – Room 101
    Cosmetic dentistry for witnessing – Room 102
    Bethlehem’s propsperity – Room 103
    The water into wine business principle – Room 104
    Thinking positive in Golgotha – Room 105
    The flaws of the martyrs – Room 106
    Seeing the Jesus in Bill Gates – 107
    Mary – the ultimate entrepreneur – 108
    The geneologies – multi-level marketing – Room 109
    The Bible – 66 steps to financial success – Room 110

    Today’s Message from the Sacred Desk of Encouragement:

    “If You’re Stuck Following the Old Jesus –
    Get Unstuck and Start Following Your Mirror!!”

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60. That Jesus didn’t show up is disturbing, indeed.

    Where I’m from, the rage isn’t that He doesn’t show up, it’s that He shows up wearing a Moses suit. In essence, there is still no Jesus. Not the Jesus that we need.

    That Word(that is Jesus)needs to be done TO us. Handed over without strings attached(of a personal, or social nature).

    Mr. or Mrs. Preacherman, give me the Christ! The gospel is the forgiveness of sins and I need to hear it! Again, and again, and again. And I definitely need to hear it this morning, or I might as well just stumble into the Starbucks and have a cup o’ joe and read the Times.

    Come Jesus, come!

    – Steve

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61. Thank you, Michael, for your comments. I’ve been noticing this for years. Several years ago I examined several large boxes of books from a wide range of Christian publishers, all for children. I think I found out of some 80 or so books, only five that expressly mentioned Christ and the Gospel.

    I’ve blogged on this issue this morning, using your excellent thoughts.

    The peace of Christ be with you!

    Paul McCain

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62. Thank you for the timely message. This post refreshed me and renewed my passion to see, hear, preach, and proclaim our Risen King, Jesus.

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63. You’re on to something really important here. I’ve seen and heard the same — reminds me of an early Christian-rock song “Living in Laodicea” — it’s all Christian veneer, no substance, lukewarm religion. I hope your words travel to the ears of the people who need to hear it.

    I’ve just written a couple articles along the same lines (what NOT to believe in in church, and then what TO to believe in) — will be sending along a trackback in a moment as your article is an excellent example and summary of what I was trying to say.

    Thanks and keep preaching it brother!

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64. Excellent post. This is a troubling phenomenon, and one that exists where I attend. Not that Jesus is never mentioned, but… I find myself wishing we used a lectionary so that there would be more scripture read.

    I don’t comment often, but your posts really nail some of the established things which seem hard to justify when you abstract them out. I am always encouraged to see others seeking how to more closely follow after God, and it helps motivate me to do the same. Thank you.

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