In eight years, I’ve seldom launched a post off of a comment. No disrespect to commenters. They are fine folk, for the most part. But I almost never comment on another blog myself. The sort of person who chases down some phrase like “contemplative prayer” and then goes to battle in the comment threads of all guilty blogs seems to me like someone with issues. I’m sure the parties involved see it as a form of evangelizing the apostate community, so I’m glad to occasionally provide a brief but fleeting target.
The previous post has been a truly great discussion- one of the best ever- on spiritual formation and where evangelicals in certain corners of the wilderness might find some deepening resources for liturgical prayer, reading scripture, spiritual direction, a more ordered, practical devotional life and so on.
With such a juicy target, how could we escape the inevitable.
Just in case you forgot why evangelicalism was driving you crazy, enter “Greg,” today’s commenter of interest and representative of the “Why can’t you people see that Bible in front of you?” committee.
First comment:
Why not read the bible and do what it says? Or is that just not sexy enough?
To parphrase Vince Lombardi “This is a Bibleâ€
With that kind of instant appreciation of the topic, I can’t believe there’s not a DVD curriculum.
Oh there’s more. Don’t worry.
My point (and Lombardi’s) was that when something is not working, you go back to the basics. I think one of the big problems with spiritual formation is that people are used to fast food. They just want a Spiritual Happy Meal, and they want it NOW! This is why there is a continuous stream of novelty programs and a quick fix, three easy steps approach to Spirituality in the Evangelical Church. Besides the necessity of the Spirit’s illumination, It takes hard work to study the bible, reflect on it in prayer and live it out in community. People are just plain too lazy do it. They want a quicky lube program they can just show up for, completely unprepared, and come away from with an instant buzz.
On the other side of the pendulum swing, are the Spiritual elitists with their Pseudo-Gnostic secrets that only they can show you. The fact that many of the specific, answers, that are being pedaled are also steeped in Mysticism, Asceticism and the Occult is another question altogether. You asked “Where do you go?†The answer is the Bible! Read out, Prayed out, and Lived out in Community, in Spirit and in Truth.
Now I want to say that, in answer to the proper question, Greg is saying some passably good things (in a twenty-something fresh from a conference kind of way.) I’ve probably said a few of them myself and will again.
In this case, however, the post was doing a bit of an open-thread huddle (staying with the football theme) and asking one another what’s been helpful on our journey. Where have you found some resources? Where are other evangelicals who have moved beyond the empty cupboard of spiritual direction in their own tradition and found a loaf of bread left by another pilgrim.
The point is to be constructive. To help the other guy. To share your lunch. To point the way and offer a cup of cold water. To understand, listen and see what you’d picked up along the way that could help others. The kind of thing the internet can be very good at.
So Greg comes along to remind many of us why it is that evangelicalism is driving us crazy and making other communions and traditions- including ones digging up bones and postulating flying houses- as absolute oases of sanity.
The problem: We’re a bunch of sorry, pathetic, lazy Christians who won’t (here it comes…….here it comes…..) READ THE BIBLE. (Man. I’ve never heard that one before.)
You have to hang your head, y’know?
Where do we go? Just get alone with your Bible and “pray it out/read it out.” I have no idea what that particular piece of evangelical-speak means, but it’s right up the alley of classics like “pursue the heart of God,” “surrender all,” “listen till God speaks” and “pray through.” Great bumper stickers. Great t-shirts.
And that’s why, for goodness sake, so many of us are asking these questions. Evangelicalism keeps telling us to go back and read our Bible. READ YOUR BIBLE. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!! GEt OFF YOUR LAZY SPIRITUAL BEHIND AND READ YOUR BIBLE!!! I KNOW IT’S HARD!!! JUST DO IT!!!
The stunning, really stunning thing here is this: We’re all talking to one another about HOW we can listen better to the Bible. We aren’t trying to avoid it when we talk about “spiritual formation.” We aren’t trying to get a quick fix or a short cut. The people I know who are serious about spiritual formation invest significant amounts of time, energy, mind and emotion in hearing far more scripture than you hear in the average evangelical church these days.
And you want an even bigger irony? A guy like Greg is probably very close to the rest of us in what he wants and how he’s trying to find it. He may have some suspicions that some of the words and ideas the rest of us mention are less than Biblically on target, but at the end of the day we’re all trying to learn how to read scripture, hear God in it, pray without ceasing and live in the power and presence of the Spirit. We want communities, mentors and fellow pilgrims to help us along that road.
But instead, evangelicalism greets us with this kind of rhetoric, and you simply can’t help but look longingly outside of evangelicalism where you’d be undisturbed in your search for more serious spiritual formation and perhaps even significantly encouraged.
The Christian with a hunger to become more Jesus shaped and spiritually mature will always find evangelicalism full of voices that insist its all very simple: read the Bible, memorize the verses, listen to lots of sermons and pray a lot- extemporaneously, of course.
I know I’m not alone in saying it can sometimes be the most exasperating of experiences.
It’s the sound of another appeal to walk the aisle; the sound of another Biblical discernment ministry saying all the people we’re reading are deceivers and purveyors of a false Gospel; the sound of the spiritual drill instructors telling us we’re lazy and, of course, avoiding letting the Bible solve the problem.
It’s why we need each other. That’s for sure.
So no hard feelings, Greg. You’re just doing to us what has been done dozens- hundreds?- of times before.
The Internet Monk Archives 
I find it sad that there is so much division – we are supposed to be the body of Christ- there are no sections in heaven for denominations- the Holy Spirit is the Head of the church and it is through the indwelling that we receive knowledge and revelation. Knowledge alone isn’t enough – you need holy Spirit revelation-that comes from asking for it. knowing that water will save you if you are dehydrated isn’t enough – you have to drink it. everyone needs to spend time with God and prayer. Salvation is a gift of grace- walking in love and having peace comes from how much effort we each put into our relationship with God.
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Regarding those who want to hear how people know we’re accurately hearing the Spirit on how to interpret the bible:
(1) Do your homework. While the Spirit can point out insights to people who have only just flipped their bibles open because they need a teaching in a hurry, He prefers to give insight to those people who take His word seriously. Those folks who actually want to understand a verse have to put in the necessary time looking at the text, analyzing the words, looking at the context, learning the history behind the verse, looking at the overall theology of the book or letter, and understanding all this in the light of God’s love and encouragement and self-revelation thru Jesus. Only after all these things are done will the Spirit reward the patient, diligent seeker with insight.
(2) The Spirit does not quote Himself out of context. I have found, to my surprise, that a lot of verses where it appears Paul or Matthew or the other writers of scripture were just yanking verses from the OT willy-nilly to support their views, have a profound and deeper meaning when you look at the whole passage from where the NT writers pulled it. This wasn’t the all-too-common Talmudic practice of anything-goes context-free quotations. I was actually taught so in college, but the more I analyze these passages, the more I realize how wrong it is… and the more I realize the Spirit has the intent, with these quotes, to get the readers and listeners to read the OT passages and see what He was trying to convey there.
Anyway, the same principle applies to present-day “Spirit-inspired” interpretations. If it’s out of context, it’s not from the Spirit.
(3) The insight connects the situation of the reader to the bible. And again, not out of context. It is a real-life application that doesn’t require verbal or contextual gymnastics. It is so obvious and life-impacting that the reader goes, “Holy frijoles, how could I miss this?”
While the insight is profound to the reader, others might not necessarily react with the same degree of surprised recognition. They will, at least, recognize the understanding is valid. But the Spirit tends to customize revelation to the hearer, so while people will recognize the truth of the interpretation, it just won’t hit ’em like a punch to the stomach. If that’s what you’re seeing—a lack of awe on your part—it’s ’cause the message was generically for you, but not specifically for you. But that’s another issue altogether.
(4) The insight, like prophecy and all other works of the Spirit, promotes strengthening, encouragement, and comfort in the Church. It only creates division among those who show no fruit of the Spirit, who resist Him in one way or another. Among Christians it edifies, empowers, demonstrates the love of God, glorifies Jesus, and brings peace.
That’s just off the top of my head. There’s a lot more detail, but this isn’t my blog and I have no business dumping all of that here.
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PatrickW,
I think that, if we look at the history of the Church, there has always been a tradition of oral reading of scripture and of preaching, as well as catechesis, more in-depth teaching. These were/are the sources for the illiterate to grapple with Scripture. Many of them, such as St. Antony of the Desert, having heard the Scriptures read aloud, meditated on the words that they had heard. Illiterate Egyptian monks would memorise the entire book of Psalms and other important passages of Scripture.
Perhaps this is also a major reason for the development of the spiritual father/director/mentor. Many people simply couldn’t read their Bibles, so guidance from someone who is more spiritually mature is almost a necessity.
Nonetheless, you raise a good point. Ultimately, it is Christ and Christ alone, indwelling us by the power of the Holy Spirit, Who can make us whole and spiritually mature. He is the only resource we need. That said, to quote a Desert Father, “prayer is hard work”; that goes for the whole spiritual life.
As far as we literate folk are concerned, there seems to be an emphasis within the Bible and within the tradition that we ought to be reading the Bible. John Cassian, one of the founding fathers of Western monasticism, only recommends the reading of the Scriptures, although he himself is clearly well-read and does not discourage reading of other spiritual writers (one does not write books to discourage the reading of books). It seems that the Fathers, the mediaeval writers, the Reformers, the Counter-Reformers, right up until now, all expect that literate Christians will use the Bible in spiritual formation.
And illiterate Christians will use it in their own way as well, meditating on it, memorising it, and applying it to their lives.
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Christopher,
I agree with everything you said (ref. your comment on 03 Sep 2008 at 5:25 pm). It’s refreshing when these back-and-forths can end on a good note!
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If reading the Bible (or anything else) is so critical to our spiritual development, it seems strange that the Lord took such a long time to teach His people how to read. It is only in the last 200 years or so that most Christians became literate.
Even now, reading the Bible, the BCP, and so on is not an option for millions of Christian people. What are they supposed to do?
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… and now, it seems that they are back! Strange…
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Wow, now it looks as if my last two comments (replies to Debbie and Bob’s most recent comments) have disappeared. Before retyping, I’ll wait to see if they show up…
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Bob,
I hear you, and I do agree that Todd should not have spoken so broadly and without clarification. There are many reasons for spiritually dry times, and lack of Bible reading is only one of them.
On another note though, I do think that lack of Bible reading, and/or mechanical, dutiful Bible reading without passion and prayer, are likely at the root of so many American evangelicals’ obsessions with fads and silliness. If more people read their Bibles carefully *and* passionately, with prayer, there might be much less evangelical doctrinal confusion and also less general malaise. On the other hand, there might be also be much more “trouble” in local churches, because Christians would be waking up and questioning more of what they hear and see on Sundays! That would be a good trouble to have though! 🙂
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Debbie,
I completely agree with you that we shouldn’t mindlessly *rely* on other people, including preachers, for our spiritual understanding and growth. Such a mindless reliance produces people who “rely” on terrible TV preachers who are often in error!
We should definitely be Bereans– Christians who test *all teaching* by the Word to see if it is true. I was just concerned, because some of your comments seemed to be downplaying the role of the local church, and the thinking of Christians of the past, in understanding Scripture and in growing spiritually in other ways. I’m happy to see that I was wrong about what you meant! 🙂
Christ is also the basis of my faith, not the Reformers. It’s because He is the basis of my faith, though, that I love to read the Reformers!
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Christopher Lake,
I appreciate your comment and I want to be fair, even to someone who ticked me off as much as Friel did.
So, to clarify: My comment was admittedly tangential to the topic at hand. Friel is not “Bible only” in the sense that a few of the commenters here seem to be. (Notice, I did not name names here, folks! So keep your flames directed at Micahel! 🙂 )
Now, my comment was tangential, but still related, in that Friel did make one of these comments about the Bible that come out of evangelical circles alot and, like the “Bible only” mantras, really make me crazy: He said in no uncertain terms that if you’re going through a dry spell, it’s probably because you Aren’t. Reading. Your. Bible. Enough. Now, this was of course, in the context of a “point … about a lack of daily Bible reading being dangerous for a Christian’s spiritual health” as you put it. (A general point that I agree with, BTW.) But he still said what he said and there Was. No. Mistaking. his intentions. He meant it. And he is wrong.
And by the way, you sound like an OK guy. Friel is the one I had the beef with. Hope my firmness in our discussion doesn’t sound like anger directed toward you. Blog comments are such a wonderfully screwed up communcation mechanism sometimes.
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Yes, I do belong to a local church, yes I do believe preaching and teaching are spiritual gifts. The Bible says how will they know without a preacher/teacher?
I’m not saying don’t go to church,nor am I making studying the Bible a legalistic ritual, or superstition(if your day went bad you didn’t read your Bible.) I am saying not to always rely on others or preaching for spiritual growth. Each of us has the Holy Spirit, each of us has availability to study tools such as a commentary, the original language, history of the first century church. We must get to the point where we don’t believe just because someone told us, they could be in error. We also shouldn’t rely on others to get us from milk to meat. We should be doing that on our own. And I do believe the Reformation fathers would agree with me.But even if they don’t. That’s not the basis of my faith. Christ alone is. I learn of Him by reading His word. Not always relying on others to feed me. That’s all I’m saying, and yes I believe it is that simple, while also being difficult, and sometimes taking years to come to a conclusion on questions one has, or difficult passages.
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Bob,
I think that you might have taken Todd Friel’s statement about not reading the Bible in a way with which Todd himself would not agree. I regularly watch his television show, “Wretched” (the only evangelical show I have found that actually *intelligently critiques* the silly fads and shallowness of the evangelical world), and Todd is definitely not a “read your Bible *only*” kind of guy. Throughout the show, he often quotes from Christians and Christian works of various eras.
He seems to lean toward being a Reformed Baptist (as do I), but I can’t imagine him telling anyone that the absolute *only* reason for spiritually dry times is a lack of Bible reading. It appears that he spoke too broadly, without sufficient nuance or explanation, in the quote to which you referred. I think he probably only intended to make a general point, though, about a lack of daily Bible reading being dangerous for a Christian’s spiritual health.
I would agree– and add that *just* the act of reading the Bible, as a rote activity, will not necessarily help one to grow spiritually. The Bible must be approached prayerfully and read both carefully and passionately, with the expectation of encountering the living God in one’s reading, understanding, and applying of the text to one’s heart and life. Commentaries can help greatly at times with the understanding, especially in more difficult, obscure passages. Scripture meditation can also be very helpful with application of the text to one’s heart and life.
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Michael,
I think you’ve got a problem with your software. A previous comment of mine looks like one in a long line that has disappeared. I’m going to try again, if you don’t mind. This thread is kind of an opportunity for me to flame about something that has been burning my biscuits for a couple of days now.
On the drive home, I listen regularly, for reasons even I don’t completely understand, to “Way of the Master Radio”, the Kirk Cameron/Ray Comfort/Todd Friel thing. The other day, Friel was all worked up about something or another and said (OK, folks, this is not word for word. But it is a completely fair representation of what he meant.) “Take a good look at the last spiritual dry spot or desert you went through, and I’ll bet you’ll see that you weren’t reading your Bible. We have to read it every day. Read and obey.” I was an Olympic medal Bible reader years ago when I was going through years of spiritual desert. It sounds like Headless Unicorn Guy and I would have alot to discuss, from his comment above. I am living proof that Friel has no idea what he is talking about. If I could have reached into the radio, through the aether, and back out of his microphone, I would have slapped him silly. Evangelical crazy-making at its most effective.
And for those who still insist that you only need the Bible, I’m ashamed that I didn’t pick up on this until just a few years ago, but the Bible lists two gifts of the spirit that are very relevant to this discussion: preaching and teaching. If all we need is to sit in a room with a literal translation of the Bible and maybe a Webster’s dictionary and start reading, then why does the Bible itself say that God has specially gifted particular individuals so that they can preach to us and teach us? The Bible itself points us to “resources” in addition to the Bible!!!
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Oops! I meant, “Debbie,” obviously… sorry about that… 🙂
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Bebbie, you write that you understand people to be saying that we need the church. You disagree and say that we should not be so “needy.” In your view, it seems to be all (or mostly) a matter of “self-study” and “self-discernment through the Holy Spirit.
Out of curiosity, are you a member of a church? If so, is it a church that resulted, directly or indirectly, from the Protestant Reformation (i.e., anything other than Catholic or Orthodox)?
The reason I ask these questions is that even the Protestant Reformers did not have the view of the Bible and the church that you seem to have. The Reformers did reject the understanding of a church *authoritatively* interpreting Scripture for believers (as the Catholic Church claims to do for Catholics). However, the Reformers never said that we don’t “need” the church and that we should just ignore everything that the early church said about the Bible and the Christian life. John Calvin, one of the Protestant Reformers, has many, many quotations from early Church Fathers in his classic work, The Institutes of the Christian Religion. The original Protestants *did not* believe that we should just restrict ourselves to reading our Bibles, outside of any understanding of church tradition, with the Holy Spirit as our sole interpreter.
More importantly though, the Bible itself does not have the view that Christians don’t “need” churches. In the New Testament, from Acts to Revelation, there is simply no model for being a Christian, and growing as a Christian, without belonging to a local church. For example, all of Paul’s epistles are written to churches.
We *do* need the church as a part of understanding Scripture (and for growing in the Christian life), although not necessarily in the binding, athoritative way that Catholics think of it (I speak as a Reformational Protestant). How can we benefit from the wisdom that is found in a multitude of counselors, though, if we are convinced that we don’t need the church to help us in our understanding of Scripture and for growing in the Christian life (in other words, spiritual formation)?
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RonH,
Having come to Christ in an Assemblies of God background, I heard this phraseology more than a few times myself. Over time I realized that not only within Pentecostal circles, but across Protestantism, the Holy Spirit was confused or something because on major points of doctrine and critical passages of Scripture, He was telling the Baptists something different than He was telling the Presbyterians or the Pentecostals. Shoot, sometimes he was telling my Sunday School teacher something different than what He told my pastor.
So I too would like some insight on this from those who think they are accurately hearing the Spirit on how to interpret their Bibles.
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RonH
I hear you on your concerns. I want to point out that evangelicals that mention being taught by the Holy Spirit are not pulling that out their butts. 1 John 2:27 says, “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.” I’m not sure there’s a very good explanation to be had for what that feels like. Even though it’s not very satisfying to the analytical thinker 1 John 2:27 does mean something and can’t be ignored simply because there doesn’t seem to be a good logical test for discernment.
For me, the revelation of the Holy Spirit is much like the conviction of the Holy Spirit with regard to sin. Sometimes you just know that something is sin. Sometimes, in a similar way, you just know that something is true or false. The pieces just fit together properly and that part of the puzzle becomes clearer.
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No, I see no one rejecting scripture. No I’m not talking about discernment, other than we all discern differently and must come to conclusions of scripture because we read it, study it and believe. Not because of a book we read or someone preaches or tells us. I see it as being rejected as the simple answer. As seeing, read the Bible, as a meme or a bumper sticker slogan. I read both your opening post and the comments as saying this.
I don’t think it should be thrown around like a sword to slash with, or to say that my view is the correct one and you would to if you read your Bible, this is what Criswell used to say. I disagree with it then, I do now.
I understand people to say we need the church. But I would disagree in that we should not be that needy. There comes a time when maturity is less needy and more relying on self study, self discernment through the power of the Holy Spirit. Being able to wrestle with the tough passages, questions, without having to run to someone all the time. That’s where the relationship part with Christ, God, is a struggle, but a worthy struggle.
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Several people in the thread have mentioned understanding Scripture because the Holy Spirit guides them. What does that feel like? How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit and not just your own reason, presuppositions, etc? What about when you disagree with other readers of the same passage? How do you tell who was guided by the Holy Spirit and who wasn’t?
I’ve been told my whole life that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of Scripture to me. The problem is, many of the truths I was taught at the same time I no longer hold to (nor do huge swaths of the Church through time). Quite frankly, I have no idea what it means for the Holy Spirit to guide my reading of Scripture. I don’t feel at all guided, and I always seem to be re-evaluating my understanding of it anyway.
So what does it feel like to be guided by the Holy Spirit?
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The main issue that has caused this problem seems to be a confusion about what ‘sola scriptura’ is referring to. Basing your spiritual life around diligent and prayerful study of the Bible has nothing to do with ‘sola scriptura’. That doctrine was designed to help the reformation of the theological system of the Church. The point of this discussion is about how the Bible is used in the Christian life, not whether it is ‘sola’ or sufficient. The problem is that for many Reformed folks, we always seem to be fighting the Reformation battles with every issue. But it’s not the 16th century anymore. It’s so hard to get beyond the axioms that we’ve been taught, which themselves contain truth, and do critical thinking. So you end up with something like ‘read it out’ or ‘wrestle with scripture’, which substitutes an axiom for actual thought. No wonder we find it so hard in evangelical churches to just talk about our problems.
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My parents were not very religious. So when I found a Bible in the closet, I thought it would be a magical book with all the answers. What I found were narratives, poems, letters, and short books. Unfortunately, it was a KJV and I was about 8, so I had no clue what it was talking about.
Fast forward 19 years, and multiple translations later, and I still don’t have everything figured out. It’s pointless to shut myself in a closet and read the Bible in a vacuum. The book is much easier to understand if you have a basic understanding of geography and the history, traditions and physical locations of the people it discusses.
Likewise, it’s illuminating to know how various people throughout the millennia have practiced their faith and tried to form themselves to God’s will. God knows I’m not the smartest guy who ever lived, so why should I believe that my methods are more enlightened than the billions of Christians who have left their mark before me. Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide me, but I don’t trust myself to listen with perfect ears.
Spiritual formation is not about leaving the Bible behind. It’s about trying to live its message instead of just studying it. Similarly, looking for non-biblical resources is not leaving the Bible behind, its just the humble recognition that I am not smartest Christian that ever lived.
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Debbie:
You seem to be talking about discernment in a discussion that’s been about spiritual formation.
Is someone rejecting the Bible in any way in this discussion?
peace
MS
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I didn’t edit or delete your post, Big V. For whatever reason, I never received it.
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Dang, imonk! What happened to MY post from last night? I jumped in on your discussion with Greg McR. I thought I had a couple of good thoughts. Last time I noticed, it was in a “state of moderation.” I hope it wasn’t hurtful, because that certainly wasn’t my intent! Please advise.
Thanks.
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“Don’t think! Just BE-LEEEEEEVE!â€
I’m saying you need to read the Bible, study, think,wrestle with God, and it transforms into belief. As for a new believer, I would and have, not given any other books, recommended the reading of the Bible in a translation of choice, beginning with the book of John.
As for us needing each other, I agree, but there also comes a point when we need to be mature enough in the church to become less and less needy. And a church that is spiritually healthy and mature will always point people to the Bible. To read for themselves, to make sure that what they are being taught is true.
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First of all, let me say “thank you” for raising this subject. Finding a place where the process of spiritual formation is honored and practiced in an evangelical community is indeed rare. I might add that, as one who has been an evangelical pastor for 30 years, it is difficult to know what to do with the wisdom one gleans when reading Peterson, et al. The structures and habits and perspective just are not in place in most evangelical communities.
One thing I am learning is that we Christ-followers only truly grow and are formed by LIFE, not by methods. It is suffering that produces transformation, and little or nothing else.
If our spiritual practices do not connect us with real life, do not enable us to reflect on real life experiences, and do not provide a community in which we have a natural accountability that comes from true relationships, they do nothing but increase a kind of “knowledge” that is useless at best.
My main complaint with the evangelical world is that our churches have bought into a commitment to “spiritual technology” that can only be applied in programmatic settings rather than equipping people to face real life in a real world.
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This is something that I’ve thought through before as well. I became a Christian in a standard, flighty, evangelical church. Since then I have gone through a number of churches and have finally ended up in a house church. A lot of my struggle is in trying to find transparent, authentic Christian community. I’m not satisfied where I am not but I feel a lot closer. When we can grapple with our issues openly an honestly with other believers we don’t feel so alone. When a Christian brother a couple of years ago admitted that he really struggled to accept that God would command genocide of the Canaanite nations it made me realize that my questions, although different, were normal. I’m not sure that we’re ever going to feel spiritually satisfied this side of heaven but when we’re alone in our dissatisfaction it seems so much more abnormal.
The other reason why I think part of the answer lies in healthy community is that when we’re in deep community it’s utterly messy. We’re forced to love one another even though their sin frustrates or even hurts us. Shallow community takes away all the need to practice this discipline. We don’t learn to serve together, pray together or carry one another’s burdens.
I know that my ideas here are not very prescriptive. One could ask me how to find this sort of community and I’d be at a loss to tell you. I’m about a 1/10 of the way closer then I was 5 years ago. If anyone else is any further I’ll sign up for your podcasts today. I can just see that this is a substantial part of the reason why sincere evangelicals feel like something is missing.
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To follow up on Dean Peter’s comments. My greatest times of spiritual growth in my life have been involved in small groups. Small groups have really been at the heart of any spiritually strong community of which I have been a part, both in terms of sharing in each other’s lives and in sharing scripture together.
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With all due respect, Pink is not a model for where I want to wind up. He’s exactly what I want to avoid. A man alone, no church, no fellowship, the only real Calvinist. A sad story. — IMonk
Isn’t that the (Theoretical) Ultimate End-State Protestantism? Millions and millions of One True Churches, each with only one member, all denouncing the others as heretics and apostates?
Yes, I was at least engaging in some form of linear thinking until we got to “I am going through some tough times, too,â€â€¦ — IMonk
“You just need to believe… you just need to have faith.†What? Huh? Faith in what? In what your preacher/BSF leader/Kay Arthur told you? “You just need to believe God.†— Delta Kilo (going Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?)
Both of these are the Fideist Heresy: “Don’t think! Just BE-LEEEEEEVE!”
Islam took that road 800 years ago with Mohammed al-Ghazali. At the time, they were the most advanced civilization outside of China. Look where 800 years of “Don’t Think! Just BE-LEEVE! FAITH! FAITH! FAITH!” got them.
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I’m dealing with this with our church’s new pastor. Our pastor ‘preaches from the Bible’, meaning he does not use commentaries, church history, or any spiritual resource other than the Bible. He believes that if such resources were truly Holy Spirit-inspired, then the Holy Spirit can just as easily teach him what he needs to know through prayer.
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The thing is, no one here was looking for a fight. Underneath all of the comments leading up to Greg’s *ahem* unique insights was a common thread of pain and not a little frustration. We were expressing that pain, drawing some encouragement from seeing that we weren’t alone in feeling this way and were looking for some help. Maybe some would see this and be able to point some things out that have helped them get off the conservative Evangelical treadmill that’s worn us out and help us not to just read the Word but to meditate and internalize it.
So when someone comes sauntering in to tell us “this is a Bible”, even jokingly, it doesn’t come off as funny, it comes off as dismissive. And in the pain and frustration I and others are feeling, we react and it’s not in a charitable spirit at that moment. But it is understandable.
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I’m putting my two cents in again because I am in the camp of “Read” your Bible. I like the way Dean Peters say it “explore your Bible”. Engage the Holy Spirit as you do this every step of the way. There is no magic to it and there is no “easy fix”. Stop. Take time to look at the words, study the context, ask the Holy Spirit “What does this have to do with me? How do I apply this to my life? Am I guilty of this sin? Do I look like this in your eyes?
I’m a Bible teacher and a Bible learner. This really is the answer. It has taken me through so the most difficult times of my life; at times it is gut wrenching hard and I want to quit but the Lord is there and has me in the Word.
I was going through a particular hard time and I felt like the Lord was leading me to a book study on Habakkuk. “Lord, Habakkuk? Really?” I spent three or four weeks in this book and found ” the righteous will live by his faith.” That is when the Holy Spirit showed me I was living by fear. I had a choice to make and a confession to make. I wanted to live by faith. I find it no coincidence that on this journey(a year later) I’m studying David, a great man of faith. That was my prayer at the time, teach me, show me this faith.
God is so faithful.
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I think there’s a happy medium here.
Perhaps instead of the meme “read your Bible” …
… we as a body need to engage in exploring our Bible, together. Note I said explore and not just read.
One example that comes into mind , take it with you on a Biblical pilgrimage to the Holy Land to see it come to life (though I think Jordan makes a better stop for such myself).
Similarly, there are other areas in our lives we all share – that can and are impacted by the tenets of Faith – why not tear into those together?
Who knows, with so many shared experiences, we may even take time to stop fighting one another and get something done.
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I think the problem with Greg’s approach (“Just read the Bible!” is a deep suspicion of anything even distantly resembling a human mediator.
It’s a feature of a certain type of Protestantism:
The main achievement of the Reformation was the elimination of a priesthood which somehow was necessary to mediate between God and man, and of a magisterium which was necessary to properly understand God’s revelation.
– Since spiritual direction is about another human being helping you in your walk with God, it’s somehow the same thing as the R.C. priesthood and therefore unnecessary and even dangerous.
– Since spiritual formation in most forms implies that you need something/someone other than the mere text of the Bible, and since the Bible contains ALL that is necessary for salvation and holy living, spiritual formation is a dangerous idea.
In German we call these folks “Solochristen”, solo Christians, who think they can/must go it alone, and any reliance on others in their spiritual walk is a falling back into the errors of Rome.
For some reasons they also often exemplify the idea, “Every man his own pope.”
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Well, for what it’s worth, as a Catholic I find reading the Bible to be one of the most important components of my continued spiritual life. It’s pretty good stuff. God-breathed, and all.
There is more to a healthy spiritual life, however. I think the praying Office is pretty good, and there are good Protestant versions out there which I would think should be acceptable to Christians of good will.
Speaking of “too Catholic”, have you heard of the Ecumenical Miracle Rosary? It was developed by a Lutheran Theology graduate student whose wife is Catholic as a Rosary based prayer acceptable to all Christians Instead of “Hail Mary”, it uses the prayer “Sweet Jesus, I love you with all my heart and all my soul, Help me to serve my family, and everyone else I meet today.” has a whole set of Mysteries to go with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Miracle_Rosary
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I have enjoyed this discussion, and I don’t have much to add, but I will say that I enjoy the “classics” which most of you have already read I am sure, Tozer, Lewis, Chesterton, J.P. Moreland, Ravi, I’ve found Ravi particularly helpful in that he cites so many other thinkers and authors.
I guess I just think that there are so many other people who have devoted their lives to Christ and to reading His Word and have been gifted with good minds and writing abilities that I would miss out on a lot if I did not hear or read what God has taught them.
I am a history teacher by trade and I guess that is why I think it is so important to read those who have gone before in order to learn from their wisdom and their failures and mistakes.
According to J.P. Moreland “getting off you butt and ‘reading through'” involves some very hard work, like reading commentaries, actually taking a hermeneutics class or two, researching the historical background of the particular passages of scripture that one is studying.
To use a worn out cliche “we are standing on the shoulders of giants” . It’s not that the Bible is not enough, it is that I am not enough.
imonk, I appreciate your emphasis on the Christian community. We do need one another (I know that you have said all of this before, I just want to affirm you in it.
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Wretched urgency strikes again. Oh well. Back to the hamster wheel, I guess. Try harder…read more Bible chapters…lock your self in the prayer closet longer. If you can’t keep up, you’re a lazy bum – maybe not even a real Christian. You don’t want Tim LaHaye to remove you from the rapture waiting list, do you?
I’ve heard it all before. I’ve probably said it all before. (Hey! I once made my mother cry by tell her Christmas decorations weren’t “biblical”!)
Lord, have mercy.
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Even though they have a great deal of pomp and circumstance, I don’t believe Catholics have all the answers either. Don’t be angry, I am not “attacking” them or anyone else. It’s just my two cents.
Tina
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AGREED
but…”His temperament won out over some of the plainer truths of the Bible about Christian fellowship. He took his own theologizing more seriously than he did the Body of Christ, and that’s a mistake.”
How do our own temperaments or desires today win out over some of the plainer truths of the Bible?
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Wow. I’m so glad you asked the question, “Where do Baptists go for spiritual formation?” I’ve been asking that question for years now. Thanks. It was an honest question and I think the discussion was good (for a while there, at least.)
Thing is, I’ve read my Bible. I’m not too lazy to do it and I don’t want “fast food answers.” I went to a Christian college and took Old and New testament classes. I did the “Read you Bible in 90 days” thing last year. Honestly, it knocked me on my behind. It brought up more questions than answers. Some of my friends have yet to even read the Bible through. Amazingly, they seem to have all of the answers. They really don’t have any questions. When I ask a question, they say things like, “You just need to believe… you just need to have faith.” What? Huh? Faith in what? In what your preacher/BSF leader/Kay Arthur told you? “You just need to believe God.” OK. Back up a minute. You’ve admitted you haven’t actually read it entirely. But I HAVE and I’m confused about some things. I have genuine questions. I ask them in an effort to grow closer to God,to have a stronger faith. But NO- I just need to believe and to have faith. Ok I’m listening… but what does that really look like? Seriously, I want someone to tell me.
One Bible study leader said this: “Now to those of you who aren’t actually Christians, this will be confusing to you. You’ll need the Holy Spirit before this will make sense to you.” Then she went on to explain some things in Romans. Of course, it didn’t make perfect sense to me. Sigh.
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Yes, I was at least engaging in some form of linear thinking until we got to “I am going through some tough times, too,”…..***crickets***
….so I need to find some Christians calmly discussing spiritual direction in the evangelical tradition and tell them they need to get off their asses and read their Bibles for a change.
Ladies and Gentlemen….this is your blogosphere at work.
Beam me up, Scotty.
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Some posts make you wonder what some of us are confessing to when we say things like “Jesus is Lord” – for some of us, that comes with heartfelt resignation. For others, it seems to be a didactic weapon. To them, the Bible seems full of obvious truths that God provided us with so that we could tell other people How It Is.
I’m right, you’re wrong, and if you don’t come to your senses and follow me you’re “lazy”, and if you feel there’s more to be said on the subject you’re deluded by pseudo-Gnostic elitism.
‘Your problem is, you’re just looking for the answer you want, and not the answers in the Bible.’ Different people, but always the same shtick. ‘You know what your problem is?’ “What?”, you ask. ‘There’s something Wrong with you.’
It’s hard to imagine that anyone who can relate to feeling any kind of inadequacy within their spirituality would come to threads like these and take honest, searching people to task like some posters try to.
It is, however, very easy to imagine a person who comes to threads like these “when he feels down” to have a chance to be right about something. It’s a tried-and-true Evangelical technique to find people who “can’t see the forest for the trees” and ambush them with sarcasm.
Anybody who takes exception is “reading into my statement the worst possible meaning, AS USUAL”*.
Anybody who argues against the dubious value of their contribution has “a bad habit”, and must be further corrected.
Some people think the Bible is a yardstick by which the ‘True believers who REALLY have Jesus Christ in their hearts’ can measure His compliments towards them: that Christian pats himself on the back, assured in his salvation because he reads a verse in the Bible and assures himself that he is “that man”. As for the Roman Catholics and spiritual mystics around? He doesn’t have to wonder, but he knows you might, and the “the answer may surprise you.”
They never see the irony in stuff like that.
Why is so called Biblically-based ‘spirituality’, in the hands of so many people, merely providing them with the excuse to vent their “frustrations” at everybody else?
How is it that you can quote so many Bible verses and yet come off as so completely unconvincing?
*”As usual.”
Man. That is so wild.
How do you ‘usually’ manage to come off like a tool to complete strangers?
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BOB:
With all due respect, Pink is not a model for where I want to wind up. He’s exactly what I want to avoid. A man alone, no church, no fellowship, the only real Calvinist. A sad story.
https://internetmonk.com/archive/stop-me-before-i-turn-into-aw-pink
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“In my early years I assiduously followed this threefold course: first, I read through the entire Bible three times a year (eight chapters in the Old Testament, and two in the New Testament daily.) I steadily persevered in this for ten years, in order to familiarize myself with its contents, which can only be done by consecutive reading. Second, I studied a portion of the Bible each week, concentrating for ten minutes (or more) each day on the same passage, pondering the order of it, the connection between each statement, seeking a definition of the important terms in it, looking up all the marginal references, being on the look-out for its typical significance. Third, I meditated on one verse each day; writing it out on a slip of paper in the morning, memorizing it, consulting it at odd moments through the day; pondering separately each word in it, asking God to open for me its spiritual meaning and to write it on my heart. The verse was my food for that day, meditation standing to reading as mastication does to eating.
The more some such method as the above be followed out, the more shall we be able to say, ‘thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path’ [Ps 119:105].”
-A.W. Pink, from Letters of A.W. Pink
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Man, sounds like some people who say, “Just read your bible” really ought to read the part of their bibles about how to treat fellow Christians.
The thing is: I do read my bible. A lot. That’s important, but the trouble is that a newbie (or an old-timer who is only now realizing that Christianity is a lifestyle rather than an affiliation) don’t really know how to take a comment about “meditating on His Law day and night” and do it themselves. How do you meditate? (Bible doesn’t say.) What parts of the Law do we meditate upon, considering the way in which Jesus’s death and resurrection perfected it? What is the goal of meditation? (That’s in another psalm; do you know where it is?)
New Christians don’t need to just read the bible; they need discipleship. And in the information age, discipleship also takes the form of books and videos and blogs and podcasts. Some are great. Some suck. Test everything and hold fast to what’s good.
But to say “It’s just me and the Holy Spirit, us together, figuring it out from the bible” is to ignore the reason why Jesus created the Church in the first place, and why He told us to make disciples. God can train us alone by Himself, but He doesn’t want to. He wants us to interact, and dangit, love one another.
Because if you don’t have someone to love, you lack the love necessary to understand and read the bible rightly. If you don’t have someone to minister to, you’ll skim over the verses that apply to ministry. The bible has to be lived out, put into practice, while it is studied—otherwise you get another yutz who will win bible trivia contests but will have nothing to reward when we stand before the Lord at the End.
Or you get a troll.
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There are evangelicals who have written about a more substantial use of the Bible in spiritual formation, but it never seems to make it over the hill into evangelical practice. If I were to say “morning devotion,” my coworkers would now what I meant. A verse and a fizzy story with prayer requests. But if I were to say Morning lessons or office, and then described it as reading Psalms responsively or scripture lessons followed by meditation or silent/guided prayer, most wouldn’t get near it. “Too Catholic.”
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As I read this thread and the ones on the original post, I kept thinking about Eugene Peterson’s incredible work, Eat This Book. It stands alone as a serious consideration of Bible reading as spiritual formation. They are not opposites, but integral.
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And that’s why, for goodness sake, so many of us are asking these questions. Evangelicalism keeps telling us to go back and read out Bible. READ YOUR BIBLE. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!! GET OFF YOUR LAZY SPIRITUAL BEHIND AND READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
When all you have is a hammer…
(And if the hammer doesn’t work, Use a Bigger Hammer.)
I’ve been there, done that, got the scars to prove it when Bible Reading and Five-Fast-Praise-the-LORDs DIDN’T magically smooth out my life. When I was just as messed up as before, Bible Reading or NO Bible Reading.
“Just Read your Bible.” Like the Soviet Union’s answer to any problem was “Just Increase Political Indoctrination.” Until every class in every school and everything in their media was “Increasing Political Consciousness” 24/7 while their country and its people stayed messed up.
“Just Read your Bible.” And memorize and rewordgitate it on cue like strict Muslims do the Koran. No context, no understanding, only the impenetrable wall in the mind of “It Is Written! It Is Written! It Is Written!” No need to think, just BE-LEEEEEVE.
If you were offered a choice between hanging out with Christ Himself (i.e. the RL model for Aslan and Eru Iluvatar in the RL model for Aslan’s Land and/or the Timeless Halls) or reading your Bible, which would you choose? And how many would turn their backs on Christ to use His shekinah glory only as a reading lamp for their Bibles?
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Michael: I usually agree with you, but this time, I agree with Greg.Just with a different attitude than Greg. Not using that line as a put down or to beat someone over the head. I would recommend the same thing. Simply read the Bible. Why? Because I believe that each of us who are born again, has the Holy Spirit who enlightens. Supernaturally. Now is it a quick fix? Well if you take years to be a quick fix. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We can’t believe something other than to hear, read, the gospel, or the truth, and by reading scripture, letting it penetrate from mind to heart, for ourselves.
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That was your last reference to the podcast.
No one has any idea that your jerky behavior is really not serious.
I’m not impressed you want to do anything but stand in judgement over a whole community of commenters whom you don’t know.
You’re a troll. Don’t waste the ink with more of this.
Another post where you are the victim and I’m spam filtering your addy.
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My first post was Tongue in cheek and meant to be funny but it was also sarcastic and expressed some frustration with the inability of the posters not seeing the forest for the trees. The rest of my posts have been serious and substantive. If you really want to dance we can go there but don’t twist and conflate my posts to make it out like I’m saying things that I am not. As I recall, it was exactly that same behavior that caused you to withdraw an entire podcast. I have to go out for a bit but I will respond as soon as I can.
Greg
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All I can think of is my little sister waving her hand in my face and chanting, “Not touching. Not touching. NOT TOUCHING!” You’d like to think that if you ignore it it will go away, but that never happens.
If I might mention, I love when people actually try to live out the Word in deepening ways. The spiritual disciplines, which are (gasp) Biblical, as are lives of reading and prayer, like Mr. Peterson are of great interest to me. I am more drawn to Peterson’s Spiritual Theology series than any other extra-Biblical source right now, and I find that I hunger for more of the same. Thanks, Michael, for the posts. Thanks, everyone, for the comments. Thanks, Greg, for the spice. It might get boring without you.
josh s blake
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I think you ought to consider a thing or two:
1) You have an interest in provoking me, which you’ve demonstrated before. Fine, but that doesn’t get us to the truth.
2) The previous post was a specific question and it had 56 sincere comments. You dive bombed in and said, in short “Why don’t you people believe the Bible? Not sexy enough for you?”
In other words, you were a jerk. From the word go.
And I’ve treated you like a potential jerk from that point on.
3) Your entire premise is that you’ve got something the rest of us don’t have: the truth of the Bible. Now I’m calling you on that one. Put up or I will treat you as what you probably are: a troll.
You’re getting more space on my blog than you deserve, but if you aren’t going to be constructive, the discussion will be over, and you can go wherever you hang out and say whatever you want about the iMonk, who couldn’t see the great favor you were doing his readers by telling them to read the Bible like you do.
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I just assumed you deleted my post because you said my posting privilege was in jeopardy and after I posted it; it came up with “Your post is awaiting moderation” but then it disappeared. If you say you didn’t delete it, I believe you.
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Sorry the comment didn’t post. It is not in moderation. I have no agenda to edit or delete your comments as long as they are on topic.
And if you tell all of the more experienced Christians on the blog where they can read the Bible like you do.
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I’m not hiding or avoiding anything. I spent quite some time crafting a line by line response that disappeared after saying it was “awaiting moderation”. I will retype it but it will take me a while. Maybe check your files to see if it’s there.
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I haven’t deleted a post or this post or the other one. Stop claiming I have. You must be on the wrong thread or something.
I’m still waiting on the answer to my question. What’s the problem?
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I am honored, I really am. I am also the reason that you deleted an entire pod-cast. Next thing you know you will be writing an entire book about me. I hope I get some royalties.
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I haven’t deleted any post of yours or anyone elses.
And you still aren’t answering my question about where we are all going to get the true message of the Bible on all of this. If you are going to come over to this thread and sound all Papal, you need to come up with the goods. Where do we all go to get the Lombardi Bible?
Stunning as it may sound to you, I’ll bet most of the people on that thread were dealing with these issues long before you, and shocking as it sounds, actually have been reading the Bible on these matters for several years.
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This is why you deleted my last post?
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Would it be unfair to say that the approach given is also very shame-based? I keep hearing the lack of grace in such comments as the one you shared with us, not to mention any shred of joy.
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