UPDATE: “Laugh or else” is a category that ought to only be used by people with a sense of humor. All others just stay clear. Apparently poking fun at Ark hunters qualifies me as an angry, Bible rejecting heretic. Well, I’d like to thank all the little people who made this possible…
Since we’re talking about religion and science, let’s see what Baptists are up to.
It has to make you feel good that Liberty University- practically a Southern Baptist School and the recipient of thousands of dollars and students from trusting Southern Baptists- has employed its very own Indiana Jones, who is off to do guess what?
Guess. Really. Guess.
A Kurdish shepherd told the ark hunters that he had seen the ark, and even climbed on top of it, when he was a boy.
The team hypothesizes that the ark is preserved in several pieces beneath a glacier on the mountain, and every so often the glacier recedes, exposing part of the vessel.
“That’s when he saw it as a boy,” Price said, adding that they had interviewed the shepherd and could find no reason to distrust him.
The shepherd asked for nothing in return, and agreed to lead Bright to the site where he said he had seen the ark.
Bright first climbed to the site in September. Then a team including Price, the shepherd, a mountaineer and several others made a follow-up ascent to 15,000 feet later the same month.
They found the spot, Price said, but it now is covered by an estimated 60-foot-deep pile of boulders. Price believes the landslide may have resulted from attacks against Kurdish rebels on the mountain, or perhaps from explosives that were set off to cover up the ark.
Wow. The chills are going up my spine. Almost like the first time I watched “The Search for Noah’s Ark” on tv.
Somewhere in the archives around here is a box of “Bible teaching” material that I’ve quietly managed to not use. Donated materials. Inherited material. And there’s no less than three videos on the “search” for Noah’s Ark in that box. There must be a convention somewhere of Ark hunters. The Omaha Holiday Inn? Somewhere.
It’s under a glacier. Jimmy Carter may have seen it. A Russian princess wore a piece of it around her neck. One resident climbed on it with his father, and saw stalls. It’s been seen by satellites, and pilots. It’s petrified. It’s in pieces. It’s down. It’s up. It’s in pieces. Every different sighting is different piece. (Bet you didn’t know that.)
It’s evangelicals’ version of Nessie and Sasquatch is what it is. Plus, it’s a great way to set your kids up to dump their Christianity as well. Two for the price of one.
My favorite section in bold.
Price estimated that the team needs to raise about $60,000 to pay for permission to use the site, to buy the necessary machinery and to fund about two months of work on location.
Bright said a discovery would “mean so much to so many, many people worldwide.”
“Keep your ear to the road, so to speak, this summer,” he said. “Because there will be discovery. The only thing that’s holding us back is to finance the machinery that we need.”
I don’t know about keeping your ear to the road, but I’d keep my eye on my wallet. I have a feeling some of that $60,000 may wind up in the local Turkish economy. (If you don’t get this, read Bruce Feiller’s Walking the Bible and his experiences with the locals on Mt. Ararat.)
What would mean a lot to some people is one more television documentary and one more book for sale to a few thousand evangelicals.
I don’t know anyone whose faith journey is waiting for a chunk of wood with “Noah was here” carved on the side to be finally judged as worthwhile.
In fact, this sort of “prove the Bible” mentality does an outright disservice to the discussion of the Bible’s truthfulness and authority. If you aren’t saying you have to have scientific evidence to judge that the story is truly inspired by God, then what are you saying.
I see that Mr. Price gets a check from the good Baptists at Liberty University as director of their Judaic Studies department. I’m sure Jewish scholars everywhere want to get that address.
Well, to all of those who are willing to donate the $60,000 for Dr. Jones….uh Mr. Price to go Ark hunting, I’d like to suggest you send the money to me. I could actually use the money to relieve my school of my salary, live modestly and allow me to teach the Bible to my students for several years. If you need a piece of Noah’s Ark, I can probably come up with something equally impressive as Mr. Price. God may have shown me that some of the old lumber in our barn came from the Ark. Or was it the temple? I forget.
It’s good to know that Liberty University is continuing the quality of evangelical scholarship we’ve come to expect from Baptist fundamentalists. Who says America’s conservative Bible believers haven’t created a great university?
The Internet Monk Archives 
Although I enjoyed many of your subjects, I stopped visiting this site due to your apparent pride. It seems to drive you crazy that anyone could possibly disagree with you, even under the category of Laugh or Else. I don’t agree with Austin, but exactly what did he say to get banned?
Just goes to show me why I stopped reading you in the first place, go ahead and ban me too, maybe I will try again in another year or two. I doubt it though.
MS, sometimes even the mighty imonk can be wrong.
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The people on the asking end have a moral obligation (in my opinion) to not appeal to the weak of spirit and those who confuse giving to a cause with building up points for salvation. — Ky boy but not now
Otherwise, you get another “When coin in Tetzel’s coffer rings…”
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Mr. Snapp,
One quick question, would you think the same way if the same amount of money, by equally qualified researchers were spent on The Shroud of Turin, or Juan Diego’s tilma with Our Lady of Guadelupe on it?
Thank you.
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Correction: “Or as mentioned/described in a lot of IMonk’s rants?”
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You didn’t call Dr. Price dumb; you only put a description of his proposed trip in the category of “Stupid Christian Tricks.†How silly of me to conclude that you implied that he was dumb or stupid. — James Snapp, Jr
I’ve been using the term “Stupid Christian Tricks” — a subset of “Stupid People Tricks” — for several years. What else can you call a lot of crap like that mentioned in this thread? Or in a lot of IMonk’s rants?
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“Unless you can provide some example of Dr. Price telling people to contribute to his trip even though it will cause a financial hardship, I don’t see how the tendency that you describe applies to him any more than it applies to, say, fund-raising drives by Christian radio stations, appeals-letters from universities and medical research centers, advertisements for charities, and so forth. The existence of unwisely generous people does not indict Dr. Price specifically, or responsibly-stated public appeals for donations generally.”
OK. I’ll expand my criticism to 99.99% of the fund raising done on TV in relation to religion. The people on the asking end have a moral obligation (in my opinion) to not appeal to the weak of spirit and those who confuse giving to a cause with building up points for salvation.
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Dear James Thompson:
“What does the Christian faith gain from finding the Ark?†Well, what do Christians gain from books such as “Jesus and Paul: Places They Knew� We gain some appreciation of the historical setting of events, individuals, and objects described in the Bible. The discovery of Noah’s Ark would do the same thing. It would indicate that Genesis 6-9 has a larger historical core than many people suppose it has. It would not remove the need for faith.
You asked, “Is our belief in the Scriptures and the witness of the Holy Spirit so flimsy that we must make ourselves feel good by looking for and possibly finding archeological crutches for our faith?†The question is loaded: you don’t really think that authentic pieces of archaeological evidence that pertain to Biblical events, individuals, and objects are nothing but crutches. They foster a better understanding of Scripture, and help avoid misunderstandings. And that is something that the discovery of Noah’s Ark would do.
You noted, “Just because Dr. Price is well educated … doesn’t prohibit him from doing something foolish.†I agree, but that does not make it foolish to look for Noah’s Ark on Mount Sinai. There is a possibility, however minute, that Noah’s Ark, or some other significant find, may be discovered.
You asked about what Dr. Price stands to gain from the possible discovery of Noah’s Ark. As you mentioned, it could make him rich and famous. But that is completely superfluous to the point of my post, which is simply that the enterprise of searching for Noah’s Ark is not as unreasonable as Michael made it out to be, in light of ancient records of some boat or boat-like object being somewhere on Mount Sinai.
You asked if the discovery of Noah’s Ark would make God more glorious or make the Gospel more effective or make Scripture more valid. Of course the glorious nature of God and the veracity of the gospel and Scripture do not stand or fall on the success or failure of Dr. Price’s search for Noah’s Ark. But try picturing a hypothetical 2009 in which Noah’s Ark had already been discovered on Mount Sinai in, say, 1809, and that it had been transported and deposited, piece by piece, to become a special exhibit in the British Museum. Looking back on the Ark’s discovery, two centuries afterwards, would you accuse its discoverers of attempting to make God more glorious, and so forth? Would you consider the exhibit a waste of time on the grounds that the discoverers became rich and famous? Would you say Christians who say that the exhibit helped them understand and appreciate Scripture must have fragile faith? Or would you say that the discovery of Noah’s Ark has, like the discoveries of some other Bible-related artifacts, led some people to glorify God who otherwise might not have done so, and that it has led some people who had doubted the story of Genesis 6-9 to take a more open-minded view of Scripture and the gospel?
Also, to Ky Boy But Not Now:
Unless you can provide some example of Dr. Price telling people to contribute to his trip even though it will cause a financial hardship, I don’t see how the tendency that you describe applies to him any more than it applies to, say, fund-raising drives by Christian radio stations, appeals-letters from universities and medical research centers, advertisements for charities, and so forth. The existence of unwisely generous people does not indict Dr. Price specifically, or responsibly-stated public appeals for donations generally.
Yours in Christ,
James Snapp, Jr.
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@ Sam again (apologies to iMonk for the threadjack): I just found an M.A. thesis on the iconography of the Holy House, published last June. Maybe this topic has been covered by Europeans before, but it looks like it’s a relatively “new” deal for the US.
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lol. (I don’t want to risk the “or else” :>)) Just a note on language. I really believe a contemporary analysis that contends that metaphor is the most efficient and essential way we truly communicate. Irony is a powerful metaphoric trope that emphasizes a propositional concept by representing an opposite position. That is not “hate-speak” or “anger”, but a way to say something that we will not long forget. Thank you, iMonk, for your teaching gift and your clever use of language. You hooked me long ago.
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In general this post is directed to James Snapp, Jr.
I have no problem with anyone spending their OWN money to go looking for almost anything anywhere they want. I do have a problem with people appealing to the general public for funds for journeys (adventures?) such as this and taking on the “prove the Bible” label. This tends to draw funds from many people who just flat out should not be giving money to these causes. My mother in particular. The sheriff has been at her door over money issues but she still gives to things like this.
Ray Vander Laan on the other hand travels the middle east doing documentaries on the lands and how they fit into various Biblical stories. But his funds are raised privately from people who can afford it.
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@James Snapp
This is nonsense. What does the Christian faith gain from finding the Ark, or any other purported “proof” of the validity of the Scriptures? Our faith is not irrational or lacking in proofs of various kinds, but ought we to go seeking them out? Is our belief in the Scriptures and the witness of the Holy Spirit so flimsy that we must make ourselves feel good by looking for and possibly finding archeological crutches for our faith?
Just because Dr. Price is well educated, as you noted in a previous post, doesn’t prohibit him from doing something foolish. I’ve got no delusions that when I complete my Ph.D. that I will be fundamentally any brighter or less prone to error that I am now. I’ll just be a better educated idiot with all the same mental, physical and spiritual frailties that I currently posses.
What does Dr. Price stand to gain from possibly finding the ark? Borrowing from the great scheme of the thieving underpants gnomes from South Park:
1.) Raise $60,000 to dig up a possible location of Noah’s Ark
2.) ???
3.) Profit!
Other than making Dr. Price famous and adding another piece of archaeological evidence to support the validity of the biblical narrative, what do we gain as Christians? Does it make God more glorious? Does it make the Gospel more effective? Does it make Scripture more valid?
What do we gain from the work of Dr. Price as believers?
-James Thompson
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Great read. I laughed… A LOT – especially the “Dr. Jones” part.
My first “guess” (before I read Noah’s Ark) was Ark of the Covenant, but then, I realized everyone knows that’s in a non-descript crate in some government warehouse in Washington DC – at least that’s what the movie showed. 🙂
Also, great blog overall. I’m fairly new to it, and I frequently find myself encouraged and challenged – sometimes to the point where my brain hurts. 😉
Blessings.
Steve
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Dear Michael:
You didn’t call Dr. Price dumb; you only put a description of his proposed trip in the category of “Stupid Christian Tricks.” How silly of me to conclude that you implied that he was dumb or stupid. Anyway, it was a rhetorical question. You plainly encouraged readers to view Dr. Price’s exploration at Mt. Sinai as nonsense. (Imonk to Austin: . . . “this kind of nonsense.”) That’s an unfair (and perhaps uninformed) criticism. That’s why I’m not laughing.
MS: . . . “So as long as our relic is in the Bible, we’re good. Right?”
I wasn’t writing about relics in general; I was addressing specifically your belittling of Dr. Price’s proposed exploration of Mount Sinai. It is not inconsistent for a person to believe that Noah’s Ark could be on Mount Sinai, while denying that angels transported Mary’s house to Croatia.
Plus, some *genuine* relics can serve as tangible reminders of the historical setting of events, individuals, and objects in the Bible, no different than museum exhibits. A distinction must be made between the search for objects which may provide some insight on the historical setting of Biblical events, etc., and the superstitious hyper-veneration of those objects, or an over-estimation of their importance. The “Pot, meet kettle” line does not have any force in this case, because of the enormous difference between trying to discover a feasibly discoverable Biblical object (Noah’s Ark) with the hope that the discovery will have an impact on people’s appreciation of the historical setting of Genesis 6-9, versus trying to convince people that Constantine’s mother found Mary’s house in the 300’s, and that angels transported it to Croatia in the 1200’s, and that you can make a deal for the forgiveness of some of your sins by spending a day penitently on your knees in Loreto, Italy.
But all that is tangential to my main point, which was and is simply that your comparisons of Dr. Price to Indiana Jones, and of the search for Noah’s Ark to searches for the Loch Ness Monster and Sasquatch, are false analogies. Your skepticism about Dr. Price’s chance of success is understandable, as is your caution regarding the abuse of relics. But I do not see the justification for your mocking caricature of Dr. Price or your denial of any chance that Noah’s Ark can be found on Mount Sinai.
Yours in Christ,
James Snapp, Jr.
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…the holy house had quite a career in Renissance art.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this is very much tied to the fact that it’s a pilgrimage site. Am sure people who specialize in Italian art would be able to cite a bunch of works showing the Sta. Casa, but that would not be me. (I concentrated on modern and contemporary art, back in the day.)
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@ Curtis: I realize that, but there’s a basilica built around it. although one major Renaissance name (Bramante) was involved in the architectural design, there’s nothing else in the basilica that rates high-level inspection (so to speak) by art historians who are trying to point out some of the most important Italian churches and associated artworks. Now, there are some truly striking paintings of the Madonna of Loreto – one by Raphael, and (my preference) one by Caravaggio. But the actual church + wall paintings and more seems to fade into the background… after all, there are thousands of churches in Italy.
My guess is this: it might show up in eastern Christian icons, more so than in Western paintings and sculpture. (It’s clearly not as important in art as, say, depictions of the Icon of the Holy Face, known in the West as “Veronica’s Veil.”) The point, though, is that some relics *were* depicted a lot… to the point that most art history students have to learn to be able to recognize them. The Santa Casa is *not* one of them, though.
@ Sam: thanks! I did find a few small paintings here and there, and it looks like the Courtauld Collection in London has extensive photos of the church’s interior. I guess little houses don’t have quite the visual kick that many other relics do. 😉
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Also, I will say that there is a difference between building a tourist trap and collecting donations from nice little old ladies for an expedition. The pilgramage site provides something real, a nice vacation that allows one the oppurtunity to meditate on the Incarnation in a concrete way, whether it is actually Jesus house or not. The expedition to find the Ark…don’t really see that it builds people up much, and might even set people up for a major fall.
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e2e: Do a google image search, the holy house had quite a career in Renissance art. Doesn’t mean it’s true, but if it is a fake then it is a venerable fake.
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e2e:
The Holy House isn’t art – it’s actually Jesus, Mary and Joseph’s house from Nazareth. (feel free to insert the word “purportedly” in that last sentence if you want) It looks more like a small chapel or grotto than a house.
And there’s a difference between the Ark and “la santa casa”. People want to find the Ark to prove that Noah was real, the flood was real, the Bible is true, etc… Catholics venerate the House because having Jesus’ house is awesome, kind of like having Babe Ruth’s bat in your den would be sweet. It’s not to prove that Jesus had a house – which we all agree he did. Noah might be a swell guy but I’m not overly keen on finding his boat. Relics are a matter of love, and frankly, I do not love Noah.
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Even taking into account the low odds of finding a wooden structure that has not either decayed or been “salvaged†into houses or firewood – –
It’s not unusual to spend $60k on an archaeological dig based on interpretation of ancient stories and the hearsay of locals. You’ve gotta start somewhere. Hey, there’s probably someone of great reputation in secular academia looking for Atlantis right now.
However, if that same Atlantis archaeological team said “there WILL be a discovery†this summer at “X†on the map – – and based on a local fisherman’s tale, at that – – then they would have all the credibility of Geraldo Rivera promoting Al Capone’s vault.
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willoh, “laugh or else” is a category that should only be READ by people with a sense of humor.
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I’m laughing like a complete idiot now. Great post Michael.
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Funny how the Holy House of Loreto just *doesn’t* come up in art history classes – seriously! Which, given the fact that so much Western art (up ’til the 18th c., at least) is full of Biblical and saint-related imagery, it’s pretty telling (to me, at least) that I’d never heard of the place before coming across iMonk’s post on it. (Though I should add that I didn’t specialize in Western Christian art, let alone Italian art, so I might have missed something along the way… ;))
At any rate, it seems like most of the professionals who did the most with/about religious art (Erwin Panofsky, Rudolph Wittkower and Emile Mâle, to name just three) skipped it, entirely, AFAIK. (And other shrines like it, for that matter.) Verrrry interesting! 🙂
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The Bible doesn’t say where the ark landed.
Believers don’t need to find it to believe in it but unbbelievers would discount it some way even if it was found intact. So basically searching for it is a waste of money, but I doubt any young people will be turned away from the Lord because some people waste time and money searching for it.
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terri, this is why Our Lady of Loreto is (one of) the patron(s) of air travel!
“Patron Of: Air Crews, Aircraft Pilots, Aviators, Construction Workers, Flyers, Flying, Home Builders, Lace Makers.
The title Our Lady of Loreto refers to the Holy House of Loreto, the house in which Mary was born, and where the Annunciation occurred, and to an ancient statue of Our Lady which is found there. Tradition says that a band of angels scooped up the little house from the Holy Land, and transported it first to Tersato, Dalmatia in 1291, Reananti in 1294, and finally to Loreto, Italy where it has been for centuries. It was this flight that led to her patronage of people involved in aviation, and the long life of the house that has led to the patronage of builders, construction workers, etc.”
Some spoilsports maintain that the ‘angels’ were actually an Italian family called D’Angeli who dismantled and transported the house by ship as a relic, but c’mon: flying house carried by angels versus pile of bricks in hold of Italian ship? Which are you going to believe? 🙂
(Me, I’m sticking with St. Christopher as the patron of travellers).
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I tend to be too busy preaching, praying and pastoring to worry about where the ark is, etc. Might as well laugh to keep from crying.
Blessings. P.S. Am a regular reader, often disagreer probably not a real word), occasional commentor who really enjoys your insight Michael.
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Well, I thought it was hilarious!
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C.A. Johnson:
Just a note that I was careful to not imply that Liberty is paying for this. Price is employed by LU, but this appears to be a private project, though obviously with the university’s blessing.
peace
ms
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Michael: First of all I am definitely passing the laugh test. And passing and passing.
Austin, Mr Snapp, and Anne: Christ performed many miracles in front of the Jews. They still did not believe. They would just want more.(John 10:32-42) It’s the same with finding an ark or even Noah’s bones, they still would not believe.
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As a Liberty U. grad let me say that the “History of Life” course I was required to take did not convince me of the YEC position it espoused. I am ashamed that my alma mater would waste time on such projects…but not surprised. I would commend to you all an excellent blog http://www.blog.beyondthefirmament.com/. Mr. Glover has also written a helpful book that I recently read and found very informative.
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I never ceased to be amazed at what passes for scholarship at Liberty University. It’s a real shame that this sort of misappropriation of funds and self aggrandizement only discredits Christianity as a whole as most secular people lump us altogether as monkeys in the same barrel.
Be that as it may, I loved the line about, “adding that they had interviewed the shepherd and could find no reason to distrust him”. Silly Gringo, you missed the Fountain of Youth on the way in.
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A Flying House?
Seriously?
Man, I’m missing all kinds of pertinent information in my head.
Were there any munchkins living in the vicinity of this flying house?
🙂
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One more note, Mr. Snapp, Austin, etc.
Something tells me that if I ridiculed the Catholic idea of a flying house- something I did in the Cardinal O’Connor post specifically- called the people who defend it superstituious and fruitcakes, you’d be applauding me for standing up for Protestant principles. So as long as our relic is in the Bible, we’re good. Right?
What’s good for the Catholic goose is good for the Protestant gander. Pot, meet kettle.
ms
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“Hmm, in passing, I actually have no problem with people who wish to look for historical evidence and even raise money for it, provided they actually follow sound methods of investigation. I do worry about the charlatans who prey on the unwary. But, I do not worry about the idealists. Sometimes idealists can be quite right, though I may not think so in this case.”
The problem is with people like my mother. She’s literally almost lost her house twice in the last decade. And she gives LOT’s of money to folks like this. And no one can reason with her about which ones are worth the money or which ones are not. As my brother says “she does what anything her current favorite blue haired preacher says to do”. (Local version of TBN.)
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Mr. Snapp:
I didn’t call him dumb. And I have no idea if he will find a wooden boat or not.
I would say some other things, but you’ve failed the “laugh or else” test.
ms
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should we look for the wise mans house upon the rock somewhere in the mediterranean? can we use the gospels for clues to its location? — Graceshaker
Only if you’re the “Dake” who wrote the side commentary on Dake’s Annotated Bible or one of his fanboys. I remember that “annotation” specifically — guy was so literalist he thought and taught that ALL the Parables were literal fact, courtesy of Christ’s Omniscience. Couldn’t seem to grasp what Chesterton called “the difference between false fact and true fiction”.
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willoh, regarding the True Cross, Calvin is supposed to have made the original joke about all the alleged fragments being enough to have built a ship. And indeed, faking relics for fun and profit was a plague – see Chaucer’s Pardoner for a sample of the breed.
On the other hand, there was someone obsessive enough/fed-up enough (you decide!) to catalogue all the relics: Charles Rohault de Fleury, a 19th century French architect. He drew up a catalogue of all known relics of the True Cross and in his 1870 book, “Mémoire sur les instruments de la Passion” claimed that “the fragments of the Cross brought together again would not reach one-third that of a cross which has been supposed to have been three or four meters in height, with transverse branch of two meters wide, proportions not at all abnormal. He calculated: supposing the Cross to have been of pine-wood (based on his microscopic analysis of the fragments) and giving it a weight of about seventy-five kilograms, we find the original volume of the cross to be .178 cubic meters. The total known volume of known relics of the True Cross, according to his catalogue, amounts to approximately .004 cubic meters (more specifically 3,942,000 cubic milimeters), leaving a volume of .174 cubic meters lost, destroyed, or otherwise unaccounted for.”
On the third hand, there is a relic of the Cross in Holycross Abbey, Thurles, Co. Tipperary (which I have seen myself). It’s the tiniest splinter imaginable – some mediaeval churches may have had huge chunks, but if we’re talking pieces the size of the one I’ve seen, then you could indeed have hundreds spread throughout Europe.
I’m not sayin’ we do have the genuine article next door, I’m just sayin’ polemical exaggeration for the sake of sectarian point-scoring is not reliable as a scientific measurement of cubic volume 🙂
As regards Noah’s ark – yeah, if some guy is saying there was enough of it left for him to clamber about on as a kid, I’m very suspicious. Particularly when it’s been covered by a convenient rock fall – and I *love* the requisite conspiracy theory element of “perhaps from explosives that were set off to cover up the ark.”
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I think there’s something to be said of people’s desire to have some thing to touch, grasp, gaze at, or meditate upon.
So much of our belief and faith is intangible, that perhaps it is only human nature to try and put a thing to it…Something to point at and say we touched an object which someone holy touched. — Terri
I’m RCC, and that’s the rationale behind the Church’s teachings and use of Sacraments, Sacramentals, and Relics. A spiritual truth has more impact when you see it acted out physically and tangibly.
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One additional note: I suppose it’s a possibility that later editors after Moses could have “updated” the place name, as is the case with Laish/Dan in the Pentateuch…
Still, the Hebrew word in chapter is ×ֲרָרָט
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Brian, does the Bible really say Urartu instead of Ararat? In my admittedly brief research, the Hebrew word in Gen 8:4 is ×ֲרָרָט
Isn’t this pronounced “a-ra-ra-t”?
I agree that the ark probably landed somewhere in eastern Anatolia (and probably decomposed long long ago), which is where the kingdom of Urartu was, at a later point in history.
But the Kingdom of Urartu didn’t really exist until the period of the Judges at the earliest, so it seems unlikely that Moses would be using it as a reference point several centuries before it even existed.
Most likely, the Kingdom of Urartu took its name from the Mountains of Ararat, and not the other way around.
Granted, I could be way off.
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Terri-
I think people often prefer the substitute to the real thing. The Jews who kept the bronze serpent to worship instead of waiting for the One who would be lifted up. I guess people don’t realize that they already have the ark if they have Jesus.
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Dear Michael:
How dumb do you think Randall Price (B.A. Texas State Univ., Th.M. Dallas Theological Sem., in OT and Semitic Languages; Ph.D. from the Univ. of Texas at Austin, in Middle Eastern Studies with a concentration in Hebrew and Arachaeology) is?
If only he knew with 100% certainty, like you do, that a search for Noah’s Ark on Mount Sinai has no more chance of success that a search for Nessie or Sasquatch, he could save $60,000 and avoid eventually dashing the hopes of his supporters.
If only Dr. Price had some evidence, like you do, that the accounts of Berosus (200’s B.C.) about the remains of a ship “in the mountains of the Gordyaeans in Armenia” are altogether fictitious. Then this scholar from the fringe – the same fringe where one finds Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. H. Willmington, and Dr. Tim LaHaye (all three are on the Board of Reference of World of the Bible Ministries) – could safely stay at home, and never conduct this, or any other, archaeological investigation that has a low chance of finding something important.
I don’t for one second believe that someone now living played on top of Noah’s Ark. I think that Noah’s Ark, if there is anything left of it, could be anywhere in the Urartu Mountains. I have a feeling that I would sigh and wince a lot if I read Dr. Price’s books. But what is the objection if Dr. Price returns from Mount Sinai believing that there is something on the mountain that merits a closer look? Quite a few significant archaeological discoveries have been made at sites which had previously been declared devoid of interest.
Even in Egypt, where sites are accessible and excavations have been ongoing for generations, new discoveries are still being made. If the line “All earlier attempts have failed to find anything substantial” fails spectacularly in Egypt, there is a chance that it may similarly fail at Mount Sinai. And it is such a chance that justifies many archaeological investigations. Maybe someone should tell the conservative archaeologists currently conducting digs that they should just leave the job to atheists and liberals, and stop trying to prove the Bible.
In reference-books from the mid-1800’s, scholarly authors assure their readers that the chance of finding New Testament papyri is practically nil. It was a sensible statement. Nevertheless, Grenfell and Price proceeded to find the Oxyrhynchus Papyri. If only you had been there to advise their sponsors at the Egypt Exploration Fund that the money for their unlikely-to-succeed trip would be better spent elsewhere.
Yours in Christ,
James Snapp, Jr.
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I think there’s something to be said of people’s desire to have some thing to touch, grasp, gaze at, or meditate upon.
So much of our belief and faith is intangible, that perhaps it is only human nature to try and put a thing to it…Something to point at and say we touched an object which someone holy touched.
Those Israelites were always building altars and setting up remembrance stones. I don’t think we’re too different.
People spend thousands to go to Israel to walk where Jesus walked…to visit the prominent sites mentioned in the Bible.
I have serious doubts that the Ark is there…and even more that the stories of miscellaneous shepherds are true.
If it were the Ark, or something which could be passed off as one, some enterprising govt. official would have found a way to make money off of it already.
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http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/chesterton/everlasting/conclusion.htm
I skipped right to Chesterton’s concluding chapter. Wow, he has a way with words! I can see I would need to focus well to read him well. Currently, I am rereading C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity” plus I just started a HUGE book about Abe Lincoln and I am working my way through Kate Douglas Wiggins’ old books. She has a nice sense of humor and is not too “preachy” in these late 1800s,early 1900s novels. So, it may be a while before I get to Chesterton, though I have known for some time that I need to know him better. I know he influenced Lewis.
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what if there is no ark and it was an elaborate story to make a point? jesus told parables too eh? should we look for the wise mans house upon the rock somewhere in the mediterranean? can we use the gospels for clues to its location?
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Someone mentioned G.K. Chesterton’s book, “The Everlasting Man.” I see you can read the whole back at http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/chesterton/everlasting/content.htm if anyone is interested.
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Willoh said on 11 Feb 2009 at 9:46 am, “It is quite possible that Osama Bin Laudin is living in the ark, making tapes to send to his supporters. My proof? Can’t find the ark, Can’t find Bin Laudin. See! Proof positive.”
Funny! Thanks for that humor.
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I’ve long felt that this kind of “archaeology” owes lots more to P.T. Barnum than to anything (or anyone) who actually practices real archaeology, etc.
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Evangelical veneration of relics.
“Now, superstition is the substance of things we deem important, and faith is the evidence that those things aren’t.” (Opinions 11:1)
“Now, the origin and root of this evil, has been, that, instead of discerning Jesus Christ in his Word, his Sacraments, and his Spiritual Graces, the world has, according to its ‘custom, amused itself with his clothes, shirts, and sheets, leaving thus the principal to follow the accessory.” (John Calvin, “Treatise on Relics”)
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I knew that piece on Cardinal O’Connor would have ‘em climbing the walls. — IMonk
Isn’t there a saying somewhere about “Comfort the Afflicted and Afflict the Comfortable?” Sounds like the latter to me. And it’s more spectacular if your “Afflicting” can make their heads explode.
It was nice and fun until they sent me home one day with all this information about how someone had drilled a whole deeper than anyone had ever drilled into the earth and had heard the sound of the “souls in hell†screaming in pain and anguish while being eternally burned. I was in 3rd grade. I had nightmares for weeks. — Daniel
Ah, yes. The “Hell Hole” hoax. I heard “Rumor Rich” Buhler (radio talk show host in the Eighties) lose it on the air when all his callers wanted to talk about “was this cockamamie story about some Russian scientists who drilled a hole into Hell.” AFTER he’d tracked it down and exposed it as a hoax to those very same callers!
What’s funny, is what my old teachers didn’t know. That I spent all my weekend nights playing in bars as the drummer with my dad’s blues band from the time I was 9 years old. I wonder what they would have thought of that one. heh. — Daniel
See my comment to IMonk above.
I love that this is the first entry in the category “Stupid Christian Tricksâ€. What in the world could be next? — Katie
A LOT. I’m looking forward to future entries on this topic.
Don’t see the point in the Ark hunt… — Memphis Aggie
You don’t? Look at it this way:
ARK-OLOGY! Just like UFOlogy or Extreme Cryptozoology, Except CHRISTIAN (TM)!
Find Noah’s Ark on Ararat, Prove Young Earth Creationism, and Finally Have that Absolute Proof You Can Rub In The Faces of All Those Heathens! HAW! HAW! HAW!
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I have found few things that get people riled up more than having the parallels in their own faith to the supposed “hated other” pointed out to them. I heard lots of this at my former non-denominational Protestant church: “Let’s all laugh at those silly Catholics with their relics. The One True Cross. Hah! And how they suborn themselves to the priest like that. Don’t need no mediator between me and Christ. And all this go to confession stuff to keep your relationship in a state of grace. Go on!”
On your last day in such a church, you get to say things like, “Why were we asked to buy sardine tins of Holy Land Air? Why are we constantly being told ‘Touch not the Lord’s anointed’ whenever we disagree with the Big Kahuna? Why are we being told that we are in constant danger of losing our salvation? You know, with a wardrobe change this would make a pretty good Catholic church!” Just make sure you know it’s going to be your LAST day.
Point being, to paraphrase Dennis Miller, we all think we are different, unique, and wise. But in the end we all do the same stupid stuff.
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The ark explained…by Bill Cosby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0KHt8xrQkk
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“For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.” from the Song of Bernadette
Don’t see the point in the Ark hunt, even if such an artifact could be found it’s authenticity would be impossible to prove, just like the Shroud of Turin. Real or pious fraud?
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I love that this is the first entry in the category “Stupid Christian Tricks”. What in the world could be next? The mind reels….
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Hmm, iMonk, maybe we need a contest! Something on the order of Help iMonk choose a header for his humor entries. You could even have prizes!
How about Laugh or die
Or maybe If you can read this and not laugh, you have been reading too many theology books.
Or even The EPA requires me to warn you that my humor entries are under Superfund cleanup supervision.
Hmm, in passing, I actually have no problem with people who wish to look for historical evidence and even raise money for it, provided they actually follow sound methods of investigation. I do worry about the charlatans who prey on the unwary. But, I do not worry about the idealists. Sometimes idealists can be quite right, though I may not think so in this case.
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When I was a kid I spent part of my time in a Christian private school. I remember they used to send my home with “archaeological evidence” of the ark being discovered in various places and I would spend hours at home with my GI Joe action figures having them discover the ark under the living room furniture.
It was nice and fun until they sent me home one day with all this information about how someone had drilled a whole deeper than anyone had ever drilled into the earth and had heard the sound of the “souls in hell” screaming in pain and anguish while being eternally burned. I was in 3rd grade. I had nightmares for weeks.
Not long after that one of the teachers took me aside and told me that I needed to witness to my parents (my dad had long hair and my mom wore blue jeans) because they were headed for hell.
I went home terrified and in tears yelling at my parents for not going to heaven with me. That was about the time I got pulled out of that school, luckily, and sent to public school.
What’s funny, is what my old teachers didn’t know. That I spent all my weekend nights playing in bars as the drummer with my dad’s blues band from the time I was 9 years old. I wonder what they would have thought of that one. heh.
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iMonk…admit it, you’re just jealous of the mustache!
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or,“Laugh or else†is a category that ought to only be used by people with a sense of humor. That would be a good idea!
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,.On a side note, I do have one suggestion: Perhaps you might start your “Laugh or Else†entries with a joke, seriously, so your dear readers will know they aren’t in Kansas anymore.
Or iMonk could put a disclaimer on the top of the message:
“This is a joke. This is only a joke. The sarcasm contained within is not necessarily the opinion of the management. It may just be there to make you laugh. If this had been a serious comment you would have been told. This is only a joke.”
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Glaciers are rather destructive agents. If the Ark were beneath this glacier, it probably wouldn’t be in a few pieces, but sheared into thousands of pieces.
A few years ago a guy named Cornuke led an “expedition” to a region in Iran near Mt. Ararat to find the Ark. He claims that he may have found it there. He didn’t bring along a real archeologist (he describes himself as an archeologist, but he is a former police officer and has no formal archeological training) or geologist. He does make lots of money off of his books and seminars, however.
I see this Liberty University group has someone described as an archeologist. I hope he is a real one; that could help a little. But then again, ICR and AiG have real geologists, and that hasn’t helped them keep things straight.
I’m very skeptical. Not because I don’t believe in the flood (I do) but because I don’t think it ended up on Mt. Ararat (the Bible doesn’t say it did) and because I don’t think its remains have survived.
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Or you could use the $60,000 to support a foreign missionary family in Kathmandu, or stock a food bank, or pay for the Dish Network deluxe package for who knows how many years…..
If these folks actually found something tangible, it might rate a one-line entry on the Yahoo front page (we’re not all Google adherents) for maybe half a day and then, like blog entries, it would quickly become yesterday’s hot topic and disappear.
Remember the breathless search for the Ark of the Covenant that ended, stopped cold, outside a two-bit mud brick building in Ethiopia guarded by a solitary old guy (at minute 55 in a 1-hour documentary)? Now there’s some dogged investigation that certainly reinforced my faith.
Perhaps I’m more of an ignorance-is-bliss kind of guy, particularly when it comes to the debate over Biblical relics. One side wants to have their aha moment of Biblical confirmation, while the other seems bent on a reassessment/rewriting of history (see any Discovery network documentary on an ancient subject). It just confuses me.
I’ve been to the Shrine of the Book in Jerusalem a couple of times, and the scholarly display on the evolution of scripture changed my mind on how I define inspiration instead of reinforcing the definition of biblical inerrancy I’d been raised on.
On a side note, I do have one suggestion: Perhaps you might start your “Laugh or Else” entries with a joke, seriously, so your dear readers will know they aren’t in Kansas anymore.
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internetelias
Quote from ‘How are You Going to Fight that Fight’……..â€The scripture says that the anger of man doesn’t create the righteousness of God. The way of love is far more difficult, but it is not optional for the follower of Jesus.â€
Imonk and Anna: I do apologize. In the quote, I wasn’t going for the first sentence above….anger. In fact, I only included it to clarify the second…the one about love. Scripture says we are to ‘edify’ one another. Now, I’m seriously putting thought to the scripure…’let your answers be yes or no’…since anything said beyond those two….is too much. 🙂
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Please allow a further comment, “Who cares?” Believers believe, non-believes will not if you had video, some old wood will prove nothing. I hope they do not find a prehistoric ski lodge.
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“Jimmy Carter may have seen it”
Reason enough to disbelieve. [and he is/was SBC]
It is quite possible that Osama Bin Laudin is living in the ark, making tapes to send to his supporters. My proof? Can’t find the ark, Can’t find Bin Laudin. See! Proof positive
This reminds me of Mark Twain’s comment on the true cross. He felt Jesus was the strongest man that ever lived. After touring the Holy Land and Europe, he had seen so many fragments of the “True Cross”, that if assembled, would made the Cross the size of The Ark.
God used to build some tough trees back then. I guess the further we get from the Fall, the quicker
wood rots.
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Amen on Vander Laan.
I knew that piece on Cardinal O’Connor would have ’em climbing the walls.
Internelias: Please note the “Laugh or else” category. I assume you are “or else.”
Thanks for the psychoanalysis. Just put it on my tab.
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Internetelias,
You and I must be reading different Internet Monks, because I see no anger, just some questioning, possible frustration and definitely humor.
Anger is when a blog blocks a whole city from posting.
PS Michael, I appreciate the moderation because of the civility it produces.
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Quote from ‘How are You Going to Fight that Fight’……..”The scripture says that the anger of man doesn’t create the righteousness of God. The way of love is far more difficult, but it is not optional for the follower of Jesus.”
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Of course, should they not find anything (which is highly likely), the end of the TV special will have a cliff-hanger ending, pointing to the possibility that the avidence remains hidden under the ice.
This little twist will whet the ‘relic-hunter’ appetite and provide the first marketing impetus for funding the follow-up series.
What gets me is, if these dudes have some serious leads, why aren’t the world’s major universities and archaeological institutions funding their “research”? This would be the archaeological find of the century . .. . perhaps the serious archaeo’s realise it’s a wild goose chase?
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If I was a guy with a great big block of pre-finished wood, and the whole world had been destroyed, I’d probably break it apart and build a house.
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Ben Wheaton
“Hasn’t anyone ever considered that a wooden vessel wouldn’t survive the several millenia that it supposedly has undergone? Why do people think that the Ark is somehow indestructible (or immune to decay?)”
Actually wood up that high in an area that cold and dry (yes dry) wood can last a very very very long time. Rot requires organic chemistry and it proceeds very very slowly in locations such as this. If this IS the correct location.
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If they didn’t want to send the money to you, I would gladly take it to help with my education.
I’m all for the idea that it was used for firewood and barn building, so I like your idea of sending a piece of the barn out… just make sure you don’t confuse the two planks, one from the ark, the other from the temple.
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One more time with the correct words. Please delete the previous post.
The sad part to this is it makes it so much more difficult for people like Ray Vander Laan. I’ve watched two of his series and they’re great.
Side comment. I was typing while watching UK win a close game. How is it Imonk isn’t a UK basketball fan. 😉
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The sad part to this is it make it so much more difficult for people like Ray Vander Laan. I’ve watched two of his series and their great.
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James McGrath
“Do you ever wish you had the fundraising skills of a Kurdish shepherd…?”
Like many other things in life…
Location. Location. Location.
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What do they do when they find an ark that dates back to when they think that Noah would have set sail, but it doesn’t match any of the dimensions that the Bible gives us for the ark? Do we say it’s not the ark because it’s not the right dimensions? Do we say it is the ark but the Bible just exaggerated a little bit on the dimensions and how many animals Noah really took?
If people are interested in proving that the Bible gives us real history, I can’t imagine that the discovery of the ark is going to do much to help their case that those parts of the OT can be trusted for reliable historical and factual accounts.
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Austin,
Thanks for your contributions to our discussion, but it’s clear you aren’t here to make a positive contribution, but to accuse and taunt me personally because I’m not “your kind” of Baptist.
And why are you ranting at me about inerrancy and my hatred for evangelicals? I’m a blogger, not a seminary president.
So you’re done. Your comments will be automatically sent to the moderation que. If you can get over your shock that another Baptist doesn’t agree with you, I’ll consider allowing your comments to reappear.
I hope you find another place to participate that leaves “more room for dialogue and discussion.”
ms
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Imonk,
I see no difference in your first response attack attitude and the person who attacked with scripture in the “coffee house” scenario.
Both leave little room for dialogue and discussion.
How about our fellow baptist? Exclude the Southern part which I personally can take or leave. If you still consider yourself one that is? Also, perhaps your “Christian” brethren? Will that suffice? Or does the “Fallwell Crew” find themselves anathema to you b/c they insist on biblical innerancy?
At what point then is the bible innerant? Genesis 11? Mark 10? Philipians 2?
You are the one who identified it as “practicaly a Southern Baptist school.”
I find it odd that you have so much hostility towards your fellow evangelicals (I know your post-evangelical) yet you seem willing to give every Papist, liberal, and abberant theologcial postion more courtesy than them.
Strange really.
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Anne/WF:
On one level your point is obvious. On another it’s problematic.
If it says Jesus went to Winterhaven and there is no Winterhaven, one possible interpretation is that it’s fiction. But that’s not the only interpretation. I won’t bore the discussion, but take the example of the rivers mentioned in the Garden of Eden account. It’s more likely we don’t know what the text is referring to than that it’s fiction.
This happens quite a bit in the Bible. The judgment on the “real world” doesn’t come because we actually find “it,” but because the existence of “it” is plausible when the total text is evaluated.
From other names being used, to misunderstandings of the original language, to textual variant to changes in geography and so on, there are a lot of factors in this discussion.
A person accusing the Bible of being a “fairy tale” has a lot more to do than say “We can’t find the ark. A-ha!” And the demonstrated existence of Gamaliel doesn’t mean it’s not a fairy tale. I could spend years writing historical fiction about real people in real places.
peace
ms
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Their own Indiana Jones! Thanks for the laugh!!!
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Did our Kurdish shepherd see the ark? No idea.
But if I could take one of your rhetorical questions and answer it:
“In fact, this sort of “prove the Bible†mentality does an outright disservice to the discussion of the Bible’s truthfulness and authority. If you aren’t saying you have to have scientific evidence to judge that the story is truly inspired by God, then what are you saying.”
What does “inspired” mean? Ask any 3 Christians and you’ll get 4 opinions. But if the Bible is to be useful, we have to agree that in some sense it’s reliable. So if Jesus goes to Jerusalem, there should be a record of a place called “Jerusalem”. And if he was crucified by Pontius Pilate, there should be a record of a Roman official named “Pontius Pilate”. And if a Jewish guy named Gamaliel has enough pull to sway the whole Sanhedrin, there should be a record of a Jewish guy named “Gamaliel” with that much pull. And, while we’re on the subject, there are records of all of the above. That’s not “proving” the Bible. But it does show that the Bible has roots in the real world, that it can’t be brushed off just because someone doesn’t believe in inerrancy. It’s like some Christians believe in 100% inerrancy with no mistakes, some anti-Christians are peddling a story of 100% errancy with no reality. But that’s a pretty easy take to disprove.
The more we can show people that it’s not just a fairy tale, the more the open-minded ones are willing to consider that it’s not just a fairy tale. And we’re under so many attacks from so many directions as being just a fairy tale that I can’t see why it’s a problem to explain to people exactly how we know it’s not that. If that means showing that “Gamaliel” is a respected Rabbi and we know it from the Talmud, then so be it. We show that the Bible belongs to the real history of the real world.
That’s all.
Did our Kurdish shepherd see the ark? I still have no idea. 😉
Take care & God bless
Anne / WF
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At what point should somebody point out that the Bible does not even say that the Ark settled on Mt. Ararat, but rather, “in the mountains of Urartu,” which could be anywhere in eastern Turkey or Armenia? So much for that fastidious biblical literalism.
Anyway, this is a perfect example of fundamentalists tacitly making science the arbiter of truth, even as they claim to do the opposite. Farces such as the ark chase are just narcotic diversions to chase away the cognitive dissonance brought on by their obscurantism. Don’t peel that onion!
Do people want to know why 80% of evangelical youth apostasize? Hmm?
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Austin:
1) Liberty University isn’t my “fellow Southern Baptist” unless you know something I don’t know. The Falwell crew may have technically joined the SBC, but their school isn’t part of the family.
2) Sarcasm isn’t a sin. It’s a writer’s tool and sometimes it’s the right one. Since I paid for this space, it’s my privilege to decide when to use it. If you wouldn’t use it and wish that I wouldn’t, I acknowledge your opinion. I don’t agree with your assessment of it.
3) I am not speaking “harshly.” I am not questioning anyone’s intelligence. If anything, I’m questioning stewardship and the wisdom of an supposedly serious academic engaging in this kind of windmill chasing.
4) Your comparison to the first person in the conversation is seriously flawed. That person stopped a conversation and lectured people with scripture. I didn’t do that.
5) My fellow “Baptist brethren” spend all their time telling everyone that their belief in inerrancy makes them wiser than others. I not only don’t agree, I think it’s demonstrable that they are making public fools of themselves.
6) I edit a lot of post around here because I moderate actively. The result is the most vigorous and generally civil conversation in the evangelical blogosphere. Nothing personal.
7) The point here is that you aren’t going to be taken seriously as a movement when your flagship universities are doing this kind of nonsense.
ms
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Hasn’t anyone ever considered that a wooden vessel wouldn’t survive the several millenia that it supposedly has undergone? Why do people think that the Ark is somehow indestructible (or immune to decay?)
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“God may have shown me that some of the old lumber in our barn came from the Ark. Or was it the temple? I forget.”
The cross dummy. Pieces of wood always comes from the cross. :>)
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Imonk,
Two things.
I submitted a post the other day in regards to the Cardinal talking about evolution. In it I made reference to distrusting things from Rome in an admittedly sarcastic tone. (verily similar to yours now)
It was either modified and deleted by you (certainly your perogative as blogmaster) or I made some sort of technical error (also not unheard of).
Either way, two things.
1. I wish your sarcasm could be leveled at others as harshly as it is at fundementalist and specificly your fellow baptist brethren at times.
2. This sort of post insinuating that fundementalist are some how inferieor or substandard in their intelligience and logic is an example of the first person in the conversation in the coffee shop from a couple of post ago.
Now I would like to offer my own aknowledgment. I have spent the better part of this day reading up on Old Earth Creationism specificaly biblical arguments and support for why the days of creation could be long spans of time with God doining the creating outside of the evolutionary process. It makes great theological and logcial sense to me and I should not have been so quick to dismiss anyone who is not YEC. I appreciate you for opening my mind to that.
With that said, I must say I have never seen the need to search for things like the ark. The bible is a book of faith and miracles. At some point one simply has to believe.
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The money will come as quickly as it does on a TBN telethon when 118 of 120 lines are “busy” with folks calling in their pledges. What do such “projects” say to those Jesus called “the least of these?” Finding the ark will help them a lot–yeah! Where’s my “barf bag?”
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It’s not just Southern Baptists that have been chasing the chimera of Noah’s Ark the LCMS`s own resident “public intellectual†John Warwick Montgomery has been hunting it for years. In fact he claims to own a piece of it.
God Bless
Steve in Toronto
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Do you ever wish you had the fundraising skills of a Kurdish shepherd…? 🙂
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Well, thank Jesus for global warming. Now at least that pesky glacier is out of the way!
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My computer keyboard is wet from the sarcasm that is currently dripping off my monitor!
File this one under, “Ways to get others to pay for my expensive holiday vacation.”
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And these would be the first to condemn a Roman Catholic monastery claiming to have a piece of St. Peter’s toe.
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