A 1500 word version of “The Coming Evangelical Collapse” is now up at the online version of the Christian Science Monitor and will be in the print edition later this week.
Thanks to the good folks at CSM for this opportunity.
Also, there is now an icon on the sidebar for a direct subscription to the podcast via iTunes. Thanks to Lurker Shane for the help.
The Internet Monk Archives 
AT Chaffee – the Jesuits? Who do you think are the go-betweens between the Reptiloids and the puny humans? — Martha
The Hollow-Earth Reptoids’ Organic Robotoid Duplicates, of course.
Martha, I thought you were kidding but apparently someone claims George W. Bush and Princess Diana are/were really shape-shifting lizards. — AT Chaffee
Ah, yes, David Icke. Since Francis E Dec Esq‘s demise, THE absolutely WEIRDEST conspiracy theorist on the scene. You DO know he also claims you can see through the Reptoids’ human disguises by using massive doses of LSD?
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I really like your article…I have been doing a lot of research on this topic. I am a member of a Lay community(Lay Cistercians of Gethsemani Abbey) and we are seeing a huge increase into memebership so I have been tasked to do research on this issue.
PLaces like Simple life and other communities are starting to emerge. A lot of small groups are starting to meet at home which resemble back to Scripture of the Early Church in Acts. This is how the church begain in the home. I am convinced that more communities will emerge as more people are called to this way of life…
Unfortunatly because we had such an Aweful President for 8 years a lot of people are seeing these communities emerge for support reasons…I am glad the Christian Evangelical movement is being torn apart. They have been too judgmental and increasingly corrupt in the Gospels…I think the Christian Evangelical is a pre-curser to the Anti-Christ in the near future….
Wonderful Article…..Thanks…
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Martha, I thought you were kidding but apparently someone claims George W. Bush and Princess Diana are/were really shape-shifting lizards.
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/faction-three.htm
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iMonk,
For whatever it’s worth, I just heard Glenn Beck discussing the article on his show. I didn’t catch the whole thing, just his intro. I have a feeling his spin on it is… interesting, though. He said “I’ve got something from the Christian Science Monitor” and then started talking about religion and the alleged leftist adgenda to kick it out of America. I was thinking “I bet the article he’s gonna talk about is iMonk’s.” And sure enough, it was. I was in the car long enough to hear the title of the article and confirm my expectation, but that’s it.
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Gay Believer is dead on the money with his post right above mine.
God love you, Martha, you crack me up sometimes. I swear you need your own blog.
Having said that: /Rant On: I get so sick and tired of ignorant people bagging on the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic School in New Jersey until 10th grade. Until I was 12, my family didn’t go to church. Until I was 12, the Catholic Church was my ONLY consistent exposure to Christianity. From the Catholic Church I learned that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God, my Lord. That God the Father loved me so much that He sent His only Son to die in my place for my sins, and even if I’d been the only person on earth, He would have still done it. That’s how much He loved me. That sounds pretty dag-gone Christian to me.
When the schools in the city I lived in were unsafe, the Catholic Church educated me. When my family didn’t have enough food to eat, the Catholic Church fed us. When my little brother died and my family didn’t have money for a funeral – the Catholic Church paid for it – even though we are not Catholic. That seems like pretty Christ-like behavior to me.
It was when I was 12 and my mother started dragging me to that Church of God that I got this idea of God as mean old man who was just waiting for the second I was screwing up for the Rapture to happen, so He could leave me here. All of a sudden, the nuns who had educated me, kept me safe, and loved me my whole life were *bad* and *not Christian.* How is that right? How is it Christ-like?
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Another thing that I think needs to be considered is the current, highly-contentious, internal structure of Christianity as a whole. Various denominations devote HUGE amounts of time and effort to converting Christians from one denomination to another.
I can see how this would play into the numbers in this study. If a Methodist switches and becomes a Baptist then the net increase in the number of Christians is ZERO. So when the numbers are analyzed it’s easy to see how Christianity could stagnate if it becomes so internally focused.
Unfortunately Christian denominations can be like individual Apostles having an argument and needing Jesus to tell them to calm down and be nice to each other. Certainly if the goal is to spread Christ’s message then why are Christian denominations so obsessed with becoming exclusive clubs and undercutting their rivals?
In an age of reason sensible people see through all this pettiness and it fills them with a sense of derision. Many denominations claim to possess spiritual truths but are obsessed with worldly politics, money and growth, almost as if they were corporations or political parties rather than churches.
That, in the midst of a global economic crisis that threatens countless people and families with severe hardship churches are pouring money and effort into things like banning same-sex marriage conveys the sense that Christianity doesn’t give a damn about people, just ideology.
In those circumstances, is it really surprising that secularism seems friendlier to people than Christianity? And why has this been allowed to happen? It almost seems as if a smaller, “purer” Christianity is the intended goal, and not just an accidental outcome.
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Mark Nikirk, ever seen Baron von Greenback in the Dangermouse cartoons?
Imagine the Baron as human, Irish, and female, and now we’re talking. Though I’m not quite at his level of urbane sophistication, and I’m sorely lacking in minions. However, thanks to being initiated at birth into the Evilest of All Empires (a.k.a. Catholic baptism), I hope to hold a high position in the New World Order and then have my pick of minions. Be nice to me, and you could aspire to be my fan-bearer π
AT Chaffee – the Jesuits? Who do you think are the go-betweens between the Reptiloids and the puny humans? π
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Oh yeah, congrats IM for the spotlight!
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But Martha, what about the Jesuits?
Reptiloid overlords? At least I know now what the dragon in Revelation really symbolizes.
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“*strokes white cat on lap*”
Mr Biggles?
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Michael,
Thanks for writing this. Great article.
Your fellow brother in Christ (and in Kentucky too)
Brian
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“The only thing could make the collapse of evangelical Christianity a bad outcome would be the corresponding ascendency of the Roman Catholic Church. If ever there was a truly evil empire itΓ’β¬β’s that.”
*leans back in big leather swivel chair*
*strokes white cat on lap*
*smiles pityingly*
Mr. Franz, it is far too late for that warning. Nothing can prevent the Plan from being implemented. It is too far advanced. Events are eventuating as set in motion by the Templars, the Borgia Popes, the First and Second Vatican Councils, and the real Third Secret of Fatima.
I suggest you submit to your ultimate fate gracefully, and – who knows? – perhaps you may find a comfortable niche under the benign control of your New Reptiloid Overlords.
Or at least escape the livestock pens for a little while longer.
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In your recent article, you stated that “we must change the conversation from the maintenance of traditional churches to developing new and culturally appropriate ones.”
Shouldn’t the church affect the culture of the day, instead of us trying to develop churches that fit the culture?
I REALLY enjoyed your article.
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I think this thread, and the others regarding the ‘collapse’ are fantastic. You can see, in real time, the cathartic frustration and fear pouring into the comments. People are upset and this is a very good thing.
If iMonk can stir up some real live reflection on where we are headed as a movement (speaking as an Evangelical), perhaps there is soem time to save the best of what’s left over.
It looks like we’re in the first stages of a complete deconstruction. Hopefully, voices like imonk’s will help us extract the ‘good’ and reconstruct a a healthier more prophetic evangelicaism in the future.
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I think you’re on the right track here. What with the latest study featured in USA Today that showed Christianity on the decline and the Barna report featured in unchristian that reveals a highly negative view of Christianity and evangelicals in particular.
For too long we have found our identity in partisan politics, opposing things like homosexuality, and in a particular interpretation of the Bible. Our unity is found in Christ, a concept we can all agree on, but have a terrible time applying.
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Wow. Between the Nazis, the I-Know-Better-Than-You Atheists and the Catholic Bashers, this is the most fun I’ve had reading IM comments in a while. Congrats on getting on Drudge and CSM, Michael! Here’s to hoping the signal-to-noise ratio will recover in a short while…
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Christianity is a blip in human time. Why can’t people just recognize the fundamental positive values that various societies have worked out over thousands of years, many of which Jesus adopted and adapted? As an atheist I have no problem at all with Jesus, but deifying him seems to me a form of idolatry. As long as Jesus-worship is proselytized I can promise you there will be a “culture war” resistance. Just keep your cult to yourselves please.
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I’m impressed that it only took about 30 minutes from when Drudge posted a link till someone made a NAZI connection.
That’s pretty slow in internet time.
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I’m attending an Evangelical church in Minnesota and I just recently visited one in Illinois and I’ve visited a few other churches over the years. I have to admit that all these people seeing boogy men are the ones that scare me. I can’t imaging a more tolerant and loving group of people than the ones in my church, especially since I joined while going through a divorce. Now, for those that are challenged in their ability to properly define words, tolerance means that while you disagree with someone, you will put up with their behavior. Christians are generally THE MOST tolerant of people in that regard. Anyone that reads AND BELIEVES the Bible, cannot justify hatred and violence, things like protesting, burning police cars and smashing windows all over downtown, like peace protestors tend to do. Believing the Bible means believing it all and not painting it with flowery meanings and tearing out sections that don’t happen to fit into an idolatrous view of “my god”. You have to take Him at His word and not try to re-invent God to your own liking. As for the people in my church, I didn’t go there expecting perfection and I haven’t found it either. But one thing I haven’t found is the rediculous characatures that are listed by the anti Evangelical people that burned the strawmen in the preceeding comments. I don’t believe a Christian can just condone the evil in this world, the abortion, the deceiving of our children in the schools and the greed of big money like George Soros, but we can’t stop it either. We need to pray, preach the word to the unbelieving world and take the insults and abuse that they shower on you for your love of Christ. Jesus told his followers that the world would hate us as it hated him. If the world loves you, YOU are an enemy of God.
Peace
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I sense a little nervousness in comments from some of the ‘regulars’ above about new readers misunderstanding Michael from just his one article in CSM. I agree – you have to read a lot of past and present articles to have any idea who Michael is and what he believes.
However, I am enjoying the critiques and comments from new readers, regardless of how fair or unfair they appear. Sometimes it does seem like the comments here are mostly “me too! me too!”. (And I’m almost always in the ME TOO camp.) Iron sharpens iron, as long as it doesn’t come in the form of shrapnel…
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Just about to write to say “don’t post that!” Felt harsh as I reread it.
I realize opinion is what you do and not really holding you to a higher standard. I was thinking more about the standard you’ve established on this site over the months I’ve been reading you, and this didn’t really match that standard. You know how to back up opinion with evidence and develop an argument and you do it quite well. Don’t hide behind the I’m-just-blogger trope!
If this is the wider world’s first taste of imonk goodness, it wasn’t really a representative sample of what you are capable of. That’s all.
Just wanted to give you some honest feedback (something I appreciate in my friends.) I wish you all the best.
Blessings.
(Don’t post this!)
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Dear Michael,
I’ve landed here after being impressed by your article this morning. It left me wondering what you think of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, and I noticed in comments on another thread that you have not had any direct contact with their ministry, but based on what you’ve heard from others they give you an uneasy feeling.
In light of your article, I really hope you will find time to look into Nee and Lee more carefully, as Hank Hanegraaff of Christian Research Institute, Gretchen Passantino of Answers in Action, and Fuller Theological Seminary recently have done. The findings of Passantino are especially relevant, since from the 1970s she had been one of the most outspoken critics of Nee, Lee, and the local churches, with almost all subsequent criticism among American evangelicals based on her writings.
The results of their recent research are available here:
Click to access Hanegraaff-Passantino-Fuller.pdf
Passantino concludes: “A Christian believer who joins the local churches will find sound theology, enriching worship, challenging discipleship, and enthusiastic evangelism opportunities. After 40 years of Christian faith, I have not lost my ‘first love’ of Jesus Christ. I recognize that same vibrant Spirit in the local churches.”
Except for a few titles to which the publisher (lsm.org) does not hold the copyright, you can read all of Nee’s and Lee’s publications online at ministrybooks.org and recoveryversion.org.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brother!
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Parsifal:
I am not a researcher and the original posts made that clear. I’m a blogger, did you notice? π Opinion is what we do. And this is my call based on what I see, hear and read.
Ask a specific question if you like.
Sorry to disappoint. But it is free π
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Congrats Imonk! From an ARP..we’ve seen growth from the coming (on-going) collapse
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Michael: Have to say this wasn’t your best. Lots of predictions but I was left wondering about the rationale for many of them. Not to say you didn’t touch on them but I wish there had been more development of the evidence supporting the prediction. Maybe not possible to say in a 1500 word essay.
Just felt like I missed that.
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I am a Christian, first and foremost.
Raised a Methodist, my family brought me up in the more “disciplined” fashion of worship where we were quiet, reverent, attentive.
My spirit is centered around this.
I left the church at 18 because I did not like the influx of rock music and what I felt was a “do-anything-to-get-warm-bodies-in-the-pews” approach.
I am in transition and will hopefully make a move to Anglicanism soon (it was the church of “Methodism’s” “founder”, John Wesley).
Additionally, I attended a revival once as a kid where I was essentially pushed to the altar. I believed then, as now, that I was already saved – but this congregation saw this as my “conversion”. I felt betrayed by the faith (just as with the drums, electric guitars and hippie music).
Having set up all this background, as a Methodist, I actually appreciated some of our tent revivals. They had a tendency to be more focused on what happens to the backsliding Christian, or one who rejects it. I believe in my heart that I’ve always been faithful to my Savior, in spite of my sins.
What I believe is that there is a way to build our faith with all the different approaches. The key, I think, is respect for one another and a “healthy” dividing line.
Christianity from its inception has been built on “sects”.
What I do not like is the “melding” of all the approaches to worship. For me, there is a time and a place.
Our “tent revivals” were the time and place for the fire and brimstone (and occasionally even on Sunday mornings).
I do not believe that it is the best approach for Christianity to take to follow what has happened in society with the concepts of “diversity is good”. That “melding” that has forced a conglomerate with no central identity on the schools.
Essentially, their only connection becomes a school mascot or football team.
WE all have our connection in Christ.
Diversity destroys the high steeple service. From what I am reading of your article in CSM, it is destroying the evangelical flock.
I think it better to keep it separate, but with mutual respect.
I do not think, however, that the “humanistic” crowd is willing to do the same. They want it all.
Ultimately, worship will become nothing more than an audience at a taping of Oprah or Dr. Phil.
I believe that if Jesus Christ is kept as the center of our mutual intent, that we will survive. I believe that ALL things are possible with God, and I believe that we must place our hope, our aspirations and our efforts firmly at the foot of the cross.
This is our destiny; to remain ever-faithful to our Lord and never – ever – give up.
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Interesting mechanical breakdown of the plight of Evangelical religion. But I didn’t see the obvious question being addressed–If the Evangelical religion is the authority to preach for God, why is it on the brink of collapse? Evangelicals have historically and happily predicted the demise of Christian “cults,”…it’s interesting to watch their predictions come true.
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Despite its problems, and there are many, the Catholic Church understands the threat posed by materialism, selfishness and moral relativism and the importance of leading Christians away from these traps to focus on what Jesus expects from us.
If there’s one church that’s never been prone to compromising the Gospel or the well-being of its flock for the sake of material gain, it’s the Roman Catholic Church.
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I found your article about the decline of evangelicals to be fascinating. However, with all due respect, I think you are about 20 years behind the curve on this. I’ve been hearing about this decline for quite awhile. I have actually seen the warning signs as well. I think you’re very accurate in the mistake of linking politics and faith. But I don’t really see that as a main driver for 20-somethings and younger. I suppose I don’t know every place, especially the South, but it actually seems there are many who are turned off by it. I also don’t really see it as black and white in the sense that because there are a lot of people who ignorant of theology they will turn to secular institutions. I think what you have is a lack of interest in theology and deeper, critical thinking running on parallel tracks more generally in our common culture. It’s not as if there are shallow answers in the megachurches and yet there are profound answers in the academy or in other secular places. That’s not the case. Typically, today’s challenge, at least what I find, is that younger people are turned off to Christ through very painful and often unexpected events that lead them to question God. They often drift away. But I don’t often see a wholesale embrace of the secular, more an apathy. Anyway, this could go on and on… Thanks for your thoughtful article.
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They preach love your neighbor, then beat the hell out of the gay teenager with a baseball bat.
Yeah, I remember when I was an evangelical, we had weekly bat-beatings of homosexuals. We were all about the premeditated homicide at good ol’ Faith Missionary Church. It’s a wonder the law never caught us.
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“Thanks to the good folks at CSM for this opportunity.”
Oh, IM, , be careful what you wish for! This blog may never recover from it! π
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Michael, I agree with your analysis that the Church (not just evangelical churches) is in serious trouble and is totally unprepared for the assault underway from the secularists. I think the culture and moral values that will define America (and Kentucky where I also live) in another few years are completely inconsistent with the values of Christ. Materialism, selfishness and relativism are becoming the rule and will dominate even more in the future.
I was born an evangelical, but left my Southern Baptist congregation to join the local Roman Catholic parish. Despite its problems, and there are many, the Catholic Church understands the threat posed by materialism, selfishness and moral relativism and the importance of leading Christians away from these traps to focus on what Jesus expects from us. Most importantly, only the Roman Catholic Church has the institutional size, organization and tradition to clearly and coherantly articulate the Christian message worldwide in societies that are often so hostile to the faith. Evangelical churches, despite understanding and preaching the Jesus’ message, have too small a voice to be heard in today’s environment. This will only get worse as time goes by. I have placed my faith in the RCC to get the CHurch through one of its most difficult times. I can only hope and trust in Jesus’ words that the CHurch will endure until judgment day.
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Congratulations!!!!
You have made DrudgeReport! Wow!
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I actually couldn’t agree more! The only issue that wasn’t addressed that was frequently mentioned in the other replies was the evangelical embrace of violence and hatred. Hypocrisy was a major cause of the Republican collapse and it’s very much the cause of evangelical christians to be reviled by the general population.
Not that they are alone. Catholics preach at people. Over the last couple of decades the population realized that the primary message was ‘do as I say not as I do’.
Evangelical Christians preach hatred. Instead of turning that TV off – take the shows off the air. Instead of not buying that record – don’t allow it to be released.
They preach love your neighbor, then beat the hell out of the gay teenager with a baseball bat. Jesus love you (with exceptions).
They turn a blind eye to wife beaters in their midst, they think starving children are in other countries, nothing is ever wronmg with their community.
They bring hell down upon anyone that is not like them yet they refuse to look in the mirror and see they hate themselves.
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Jason,
I’m with you. It will be great fun, especially as a Catholic I like Joel Franz’s comment. But only if the best of evangelicalism came across the Tiber (or Bosphoros (sp))
BIG π
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Many have been saying this sort of thing for about 15 years, notably David Wells of Gordon-Conwell Seminary. In fact, he says that evangelicalism does not really exist as a definable movement anymore. I pastor a PCA church, and we barely, if ever, use the word. It just doesn’t mean anything anymore. We are about the Gospel of grace, not a movement. If someone needs a label, then we are classically Protestant. The 5 Solas and all that.
However, Wells identifies a third major group of Evangelicalism, the confessional or truth-driven, which has a real potential to come out of the wreckage stronger and more distinct. In that sense, we are happy for the dissolution of what has become just another liberal, truth-denying movement. If someone thinks Osteen and Haggard and even Warren (gasp!) are evangelicals, then I am not that.
You mention this third group in your CSM article, but perhaps don’t spend enough time on them (maybe more in the full article?). Maybe they are just too small. I’m thinking not just of denominations, but some groups such as Together for the Gospel (Dever, Duncan, Mohler & Mahaney), the Gospel Coalition (Carson & Keller), and Westminster West & the White Horse guys (Horton et al).
BTW, you seem pretty familiar with the Reformed tradition. Why don’t you have any representatives in your liturgical discussions? Is it because we don’t have any? π
Chris Hutchinson
Blacksburg, VA
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I’ve been reading IM for several years, benefited from it greatly on a number of occasions.
I’m going to enjoy the comments from wacky web as Michael went viral with a Drudge link.
It’ll be a real education of the internet that I used to go over to sometimes is like today.
New folks, read Michael’s archive, some great stuff, it might challenge you.
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The only thing could make the collapse of evangelical Christianity a bad outcome would be the corresponding ascendency of the Roman Catholic Church. If ever there was a truly evil empire it’s that. And its head being a former Nazi Youth is more appropriate than one could ever believe.
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I found your article in the CSM interesting – in an intellectually remedial sort of way. It’s no secret that people have been predicting the “end of the evangelical church,” or perhaps more accurately wishing for it. In fact you are a bit late in predicting it. For decades evangelicals have been leaving the Protestant mainlines for other more traditional denominations mainly Orthodox. Frank Schaeffer is among the most famous. I’ve come across some of them myself. They leave seeking structure that is sorely lacking or overly prescriptive in many evangelical churches. I agree with some of your comments about many evangelicals who can’t quote scripture and have no idea why they believe what they believe. Faith is great but faith without wisdom leads to tyranny. However I think you are a bit wrong. I am by no means a “U.S. evangelical church apologist.” I think they will pay for their emphasis on prosperity gospel and their support of cultural wars. But I urge you not to throw all people who want to spread the gospel into one boat. I believe it’s selfish for me to keep the blessings, compassion and love of the Lord Jesus Christ to myself so I share it with others. I do not think it’s bad to spread a little love around. I urge you to elevate your didactic arguments to a level worth scrutinizing beyond the left/right, conservative/liberal camps. No one person is all anything – all good or all evil. The death of the man-made evangelical hierarchical structure should be welcomed but evangelists will live on.
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There is, of course, a *serious* danger to Christianity.
That danger is when Christianity can no longer pay the media enough money to *continue* to censor and suppress the Truth about the Teaching of Jesus (as it has done quite effectively for some 30 years); specifically, that the Doctrine of “resurrection” is a Doctrine of ‘Rebirth’ rather than the doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave.
When such a Truth is, finally, widely publicized– the problem with black-mailers is that they do not *stay* bought–I suggest selling short *all* of your stock in Christianity, Inc.
Fast.
Michael Cecil
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I would advise anyone who has come here via Christian Science Monitor, Real Clear or Drudge to take the time to examine this blog archives. You will be pleasantly surprised at what you will find. Take a breath, pour a cup of coffee (or whatever) and peruse. Then make your comments.
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just read your article. One has to wonder if conservativism will benfit as much as evangelicals from a splitting of the ideologies (or atleast a recognition on the part of both that they are not the “same” thing). i tend to think so. Having a tradition in both schools, it seems to me they have compromised each other. I dare say, however, that conservativism will make a comeback in fairly short order. Otherwise we are doomed to a ingenuity killing economic system I heretofor have thought unacceptable to americans. I hope I am right. Minus the social conservativism, i think conservativism will flourish. Few folks, even those claiming to be liberals, support centralized planning as the way to go. Like you, I cannot claim prophet status. lol.
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once you are on Drudge there is no turning back.
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(Arrived at this article via “Memeorandum”=>”CS Monitor.”) There’s an expression: “Join with those who seek the truth; flee from those who’ve found it.” I grew up Methodist and converted to Orthodoxy, 25 years ago–drawn by its sense of mystery and awe at the unfathomable Divine.
Increasingly, what I’ve found in my own Church, as well as among self-proclaimed Christians in the Public Square (and perhaps, in your article, as well) is a hardening posture of concern for authority, power, influence . . . a willingness to dispense with people of “marginal faith” (whatever that looks like). . . priests who announce that you shouldn’t come up for communion if you voted for XYZ candidate. One cleric I encountered sought to create a church of the “faithful remnant”–i.e., motivated believers (of his own stripe) who would be a political force (and basis for his frequent book launches).
The longer I live, the more cause I find for mystery and awe; but the word “Christian” summons nearly a nausea.
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Now Drudge has linked to the article. I’m not sure you’re 100% right, Michael, but you’re certainly bringing a lot of attention to the issue.
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Far Right Christian fanatics frighten me as much as extremist Islamics. They embrace violence and intolerance. And I believe they should stick to saving souls and stay out of politics. They are far too political in their TV Evangelism. When I hear little old ladies talking about the end of the world because of Obama being elected, it makes me cringe. I actually know a little old lady who had to start taking anti-depressants because of watching John Hagee all the time.
I see this all the time with elderly folk. The TV Evangelists use fear mongering.
And I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools. After my parents sacrificed all those years to pay high tuitions and I turned to the Catholic Church to help me in a time of financial distress to give me some work cleaning or anything, they told me they were broke and bankrupt and couldn’t help me. I went there for 18 years and 8 in their private school. I wouldn’t set foot in a Catholic Church again for anything.
I prefer the Unitarian Universalists.
And I was shocked to see your article in the Christian Science Monitor. I read it all the time. Usually they are moderate. Your article was extreme….more fear mongering that Christianity is fading and a prediction of the end of time.
People have thought the end of time was coming for centuries, everytime there is war and petulance and economic hardship. It’s cyclical.
Want to know the most spoken language in the world???
It’s Hindi. There are more Hindus in the world than any religion.
Christians are so arrogant sometimes to think they are the most important religion in the world.
I respect Hinduism and Jainism especially for their philosophy of peace.
Christians preach the teachings of Jesus, but do they really practice it?
Jesus let his enemies kill him. He was sending a message. You don’t kill others because they are attacking you.
True followers of Jesus would become true martyrs before they would attack innocent women and children.
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What did I say about church planting?
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Beyond Mr. Spencer’s wishful thinking that Evangelical Christianity will collapse and will look like liberal Christianity in the future, his article is sociologically illiterate. Evangelicalism is thriving and liberal churches declining because of demographics: liberal churches don’t produce children. Secondly, religious groups typically thrive on persecution. In the State of Maine for example, for many liberal church that closes the Southern Baptists are buying the churches and planting new more successful churches.
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The collapse of evangelism is something I see in my classes at Morehead State University. Most of my students come out of one sort of evangelism or another but many come into college as agnostics or atheists (like me). Few have much of a commitment to Christianity.
One interesting feature of “The Coming Evangelical Collapse” is that there are no direct references to God, Jesus, or Paul. Perhaps the collapse is even more profound than the author claims.
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Perhaps if Evangelicals acted more like Jesus when it comes to war, the majority of people would not desire to lash out against them. Most TV Evangelists are fear mongers and spread religious intolerance against those who don’t share their beliefs. Perhaps that is also an issue. The USA was founded on the principals of religious freedom, NOT just
Christianity.
I get SO upset when I see Pat Robertson’s show asking for money to send Russian Jews to Israel. Why is he doing that??? Why send more people to a country which is already crowded?
Why not ask for money to get the Russian Jews to come to the United States?
Sorry, the evangelicals are doing this to themselves.
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A provocative thought..the diminishing of Evangelical christianity. That it allied itself with conservative politics resonates, as does the American notion that big and modern is best (maga churches).
There is always the need to create christianity in our own image. Jesus was tempted to go the popular and estravagant way with huge followings…but in the wilderness temptation rejected that superficial way.
The ‘Emergent Church’ is an interesting movement. It follows the themes of the early apostolic church. It is also s ‘young’ oriented association struggling to find how to live out real christianity.
Oftimes christianity grows best when under duress.
American christianity probably needs that…as now it doesn’t cost the follower.
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First off I want to say that this was an excellent article and very well-written. I am reminded of discussions that I have had with European friends over the decline of Christianity there. Their typical answer is along the lines of Christianity becoming “too political”.
The “Culture War” itself is what is sucking the life out of American Christianity. Increasingly Christians are becoming defined by what, and who, they’re AGAINST as opposed to what they believe. As you noted so well, overall spirituality and faith is being replaced by political causes and an increasingly elitist mindset that “sinners” (i.e. virtually everyone) is unwelcome in the ranks of Protestant Christianity.
Media star Evangelical preachers are almost incapable of mentioning Christ without including a denunciation of someone they dislike. This has caused many people to develop an instinctive aversion to talking about Christian faith because they have come to expect that doing so will mean having to bash somebody.
Is this what draws people to more “mystical” denominations? I personally think so. People turn to religion for spiritual answers, not directions as to what politicians to vote for. America is becoming more hostile to faith because faith is becoming more hostile to Americans. When religious leaders obsess over who they disapprove of and hate, and expect their followers to do the same, inevitably the spirituality drains away.
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OPC: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
PCA Presbyterian Church in America
TR: Truly Reformed
LCMS: Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
CCM: Contemporary Christian Music
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Great website! I just found you through Real Clear Politics as well and I find your site interesting. I’m a member of an Evangelical church and I’ve come to the conclusion in the last couple of years that the culture war is lost but hindsight being what it is, it wasn’t a devine revelation, it was obvious. I can look back and see how it could be called a waste of time and even counter productive in light of the many missed opportunities to spread the gospel, but what should we have done? Should we have tried to ignore the evil? And I don’t believe in wagging a bony finger in peoples faces either.
Also, someone please explain to me the initials used in the above entries, OPC, PCA, TR, LCMS and CCM.
Please forgive my ignorance! : )
Thanks
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Congratulations on the op-ed Michael! Did you see that RealClearPolitics.com picked up your article and exposed it to tens of thousands of more readers?! You’re going viral. Kudos.
Brad
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Just a brief note from a guy who came here via the CSMonitor. The OPC is “on my radar”; mainly due to the fact that I (a PCA guy) was dating a very lovely OPC girl deeply involved in her denomination. The OPC is growing by a per cent or two per annum on average at present (yes I’ve read through the general assembly minutes and skimmed the spreadsheets; church rolls appear to be extremely well kept); also on any given year they add a handful of churches.
My ancedotal read on this is that their growth is driven by three patterns:
1. OPC families appear to tends towards the larger side.
2. A large number of new members to the OPC end up there after having issues with the PCA and to a lesser extent other reformed churches. In her presbytery the single largest source of new members was people who felt that their local PCA church was not rigorous enough regarding worship, theology, etc.
3. New Calvinists who elect to head ‘straight for the hard stuff’. They seemed to be mostly college students who found Reformed theology for the first time via a parachurch ministry and then found the most rigorous practioniers of said theology upon leaving college.
All told, the OPC appears to be growing at a pretty good clip, but the looming issue is always what is happening in the PCA. Disaffection by the conservative wing of the PCA could lead to substantial growth in the OPC. If anything, the OPC is more resiliant than PCA due to their greater uniformity of practice and belief. Off the cuff I think the OPC might grow out to around 75,000 – 100,000 members in the next 30 years without a major influx from the PCA.
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Thanks for your thoughtful response. I especially like what you have to say about Pentecostals. My one reservation about your article was that it seemed a bit too sociologically detriment. Your reflections on the role of the holy sprit in the Pentecostal church bring the emphasis back where it belongs (on the work of Christ and the presence of the holy sprit) my interest in the OPC and LCMS is based on my love of Γ’β¬Εold schoolΓ’β¬Β churches. If my church (the Anglican Church in Canada) goes over the cliff the only two places I think I would feel at home would be the OPC or LCMS. As an aside I think your observations about the PCA are correct but I am not sure that the relatively diverse state of worship and doctrine in the PCA is a bad thing I have worshiped in three different PCA churches in the last 20 years and although I am not a big fan of the contemporary worship styles that characterized them I have to say they were all great churches just not for me (I just canΓ’β¬β’t come to terms with electric guitars in church and I insist on being able to receive the Eucharist every week).
Peace
Steve in Toronto
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Great piece. I truly feel that the biggest mistake American Christians ever made over the years is to align themselves so closely with the American/Conservative/Republican version of capitalism. To those outside of that dynamic, the attitude for too long has been, well, too bad, so sad; it stinks to be you. But now, that system is failing, leaving so many to scoff at Christians and ponder the failure of their God. Yes, the collapse is coming and we’ve only ourselves to blame, not the media, not the government, not the liberals…
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Insular conservative denominations will have natural resistance, but of the three you mention, each is different.
PCA is growing off of the Calvinistic resurgence and general interest in family/gender issues among the evangelicals. The PCA’s problems are the TRs on side and the almost-Baptists on the other.
OPC is really off my radar, but I can’t imagine there’s much growth, and if a person has a choice between PCA and OPC, they are going to need some pretty Reformed reasons to be OPC.
PCA has a strong campus ministry, which will serve them well. They are also good church planters. Ditto.
LCMS is looking at a generational horizon unless they can find a way to attract younger evangelicals to their churches. They can do this, but most won’t. They are either going evangelical or are too ethnically Lutheran. They need the missionary zeal of the Lutherans in Africa if they are going to avoid the fate of the mainlines (delayed a bit though.)
Pentecostals are on a different track. They may suffer collapse, but they are used to a very fluid and unstable situation. The people in Rod Parsley’s church are more likely to go to another Pentecostal church than to drop out, at least now. They are also inter-racial and easily cross cultures. They are great church planters and, frankly, they are emphasizing the gifts and Life of the Spirit, which is the greatest weakness of conservative evangelicals. Pentecostals don’t debate worship wars, etc. They just get busy and do their thing. They may be Biblically and doctrinally weak in some ways, but less than we tend to think in our camp. They are connected with the world wide Christian movement and are benefiting from the leadership of global south churches. Yes, they have BIG problems with the Prosperity Gospel and more, but they have a lot more energy than the average non-Pentecostal evangelical movement.
Look for evangelicalism to look more and more like Pentecostalism in the future.
Remember kids, the Reformed blogosphere represents a very small world. Calvinists are 6% of the SBC. Most evangelicals don’t care what the Pyros or I say π
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Congradulations Michael. Good place to be.
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Congratulations on your editorial Michael may it be the first of many.
I am wondering if you think that the more confessional denominations such as the LCMS, PCA and OPC will be spared the worst of the coming collapse. Like wise I am surprised that you feel that the Pentecostal church will be among the last men standing. I would think that this church more than most represents the fallings you describe in you article (perhaps it is willingness to serve the poor?). Lastly although I wish our Orthodox and Roman brothers well it has been my experience that although there is no doubt that evangelical have lost a few of there best and brightest to Rome the bulk of the flow is still toward protestant expressions of evangelicalism.
God Bless
Steve in Toronto
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However, despite the evangelicals coming in to Orthodoxy, it is not a big enough movement to make “dent” big enough to be statistically significant for the USA, although it is statistically significant for the Antiochians and the Orthodox Church in America.
Very nice article iMonk.
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Michael Bell, the comment about CSM made me giggle. But for what its worth, CSM isn’t a denominational/religious paper. While it was founded by Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, it was never a platform for the religion. It’s always just been about the news. The only things that relate to Christian Science are the name and occasionally something in its daily article about religion.
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Woohoo! Coming evangelical collapse! Yay! I could *not* feel more joy!
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Feel free to stick your tongue out at me at any time. π
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CSM? Well that makes some sense, CCM is probably not dying to publish your stuff, as great as the rest of us might find it. π
If I find some of your articles in the “WatchTower” magazine I might start to wonder a bit.
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I’m sure there are, but I can’t cite them at the moment. Scot Mcknight has a whole book about it.
A lot of evangelicals of a very narrow type have converted. And hundreds of thousands of Catholics, esp hispanics, have gone evangelical.
Orthodox have evangelicals coming in, but they have to give an explanation at the door as to why they aren’t at their own church. π
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I have a question – are there any stats on evangelicals who convert to Catholicism or to Orthodoxy?
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