Riffs/iMonk 101: Wilkerson Warns/iMonk Rants

158 thoughts on “Riffs/iMonk 101: Wilkerson Warns/iMonk Rants”

1. Still waiting for Alan to man up and admit that his message of 09 Mar 2009 at 3:42 pm accusing Dobson of predicting the end of the world in 2012 and calling Obama the antichrist was completely false.

   As I have said before, I have my disagreements with Dobson.

   Alan, why don’t you admit that you made a mistake on this one?

   Can someone else get Alan off the hook by finding the alleged Dobson quote to which Alan pretended he was reacting?

   Thanks,

   Bill

   LikeLike

2. In my enthrallment with Hal Lindsey as a youngster, I had to share this information with my mom. I was a little bit floored (but not that floored, because at the time I found his book very convincing) when she told me that as a child she had heard many sermons about that same thing. I couldn’t quite figure that out, and so put it out of my mind.

   I do think public figures have some responsibility to try to retract false or misleading information, esp. concerning widely publicized sensationalism. And how else could that book be described? I have looked at Lindsey’s current website, and it looks more political than religious (or some mish-mash). More power to him. But the only prophecy I’m interested in any more is the one that’s already been fulfilled, in Jesus Christ.

   I am sort of sad about all the end times stuff, and how much this one thing has separated and disenchanted Christians. I personally never give it any thought anymore, seeing it cycle this way and that for 40 years. Like many of your readers, I find today to be the most important day to live for Christ.

   LikeLike

3. As I thought, no one can cite examples to support Alan’s crazy assertion (09 Mar 2009 at 3:42 pm) that “Whatever, we all know that Obama is the antiChrist and the world will end shortly after 2012–at least, Focus on the Family claims that, and we all know Dobson is inspired.”

   Why do people make up crazy stuff to discredit those with whom they disagree? If you don’t like Dobson, at least use his actual positions in your arguments, not straw men.

   I don’t keep track that well of what Dobson does or says, but I would be astounded if he said what Alan claims he said. The times I have heard Dobson, he sounded reasonable and rational. I’m sure there are areas where I disagree with Dobson (I am a Catholic, and thus an amilenialst), but I don’t think he’s a crazy man.

   Let’s stick with facts, not the fevered speculations of an overworked imagination.

   Thanks,

   Bill

   LikeLike

4. I can’t remember the details, but some time ago I know I heard a program on Focus on the Family on this topic. Dr. Dobson was interviewing someone discussing how we should all be preparing for appropriate careers and ministries in the 1000-year reign of Christ after He comes again.

   I can remember thinking, “Wha???”

   There are many, many reasons I’m glad I’m a Catholic. Not having to pay attention to all of this craziness is one of them. (However, it’s quite entertaining to read about.)

   LikeLike

5. Somebody other than me read Salem Kirban?!! wow. — Risa

   I did, years ago. I CAN’T UNREAD IT! AAAAAAGH! AAAAAAGH!

   If LaHaye & Jenkins’ Left Behind is the Eragon of Christian Apocalyptic Fiction, Kirban’s 666 is its “Eye of Argon”. I have NEVER read such awful writing, and I’ve encountered a lot of bad writing in my time in fandom.

   LikeLike

6. Somebody other than me read Salem Kirban?!! wow. Fortunately, Jesus heals all scar(e)s!8D

   While disappointed to hear that the “sandwich” story was false, at least WWN’s editor added a statement to that effect. Which meant that DW’s church officially corrected the story. Honesty prevailed. Plus, as I understand it, intercession DID occur before 9/11. One of things I remember about 9/11 was the amazement that the usual number of people were NOT there. Perhaps a direct result of DW and his church’s intercession? Now he is feeling something similar. Plus a need to store food, etc. that would last 30 days. Are they interceeding again? Maybe this intercession will also limit or stop the actual event from happening. DW will look bad and open to the accusation of “false prophet” but rather that than people burning.

   To be honest, I don’t agree with everything he says but I think in some ways our immediate response to DW is telling. Were we offended and rolled our eyes, or did we pray first? Maybe just a tiny bit of fear hit our hearts and we reacted accordingly. I’m not trying to be religious but I know the knee-jerk reactions I’ve had before to things like this and deeply regretted later. So to all this I just say we need to pray and ask God calmly what’s up. We may be surprised. 8)

   LikeLike

7. You can put Lutherans in with the non-hysterical end times outlook. I didn’t know that any of the tribulation stuff even existed until I went to college in Texas and the left behind stuff had gotten big.

   I once worked during the summer, while I was attending Seminary, with a guy who was “training to become a baptist youth minister.” We had a lot of interesting conversations. One day something about Israel came up and I remarked that I doubted that peace would ever exist in that part of the world. He then said something about the 7 year treaty, which led to him being totally shocked that I didn’t believe in a pre-trip theology.

   He had never heard of anything different.

   Eventually I convinced him that spending all of that time trying to decipher what God would eventually cause to happen anyway didn’t make a lot of sense. We need to be focused on Christ and proclaiming Christ’s message rather than figuring out what God might do next.

   LikeLike

8. I agree with your assessment of the rapture, end of the world literature in evangelicalism. But I do not believe Dave Wilkerson is coming from that perspective. He is simply saying he believes difficult times are ahead for the USA in it’s inner cities resulting in riots,looting and fires. He has not said anything about the end of the world.Is this of the Lord? Well I do not despise prophecies but test them. Is the probability of his “vision” happening in a deep and serious economic collapse in cities where people may get most desperate?? Is it beyond possibility that one of the countries groups that hate us successfully pull off some type of terrorist attacks aginst us? I have no question that America is experiencing the consequences of its own sins destroying it as Israel it is called judgment. This is not end time fear mongering to sell books and trinkets.

   LikeLike

9. Hey you made me laugh with this one .Its funny especially the Hadge and the chart.
   Now unto serious matters:
   As always every arm of Christianity claim to have the truth.What is scary suppose the truth is there and many mist it because of everyone else claims “WE HAVE IT THE TRUTH”. Does that mean that the truth as far as eschatology is none existent?
   Now that is something that’s not good i would like to be in a position to know what is going on
   Is that the God we serve a God that keeps us in the dark or dim light ?
   I say no.
   God warned Noah ,He warned Sodom,
   Is there a clear distinctive warning God has given us now ?
   Am not Going to use your blog subject any theology but the bible says:
   2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
   2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
   17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

   This does not sound like a God who hides salvivic information from us.

   I hope i am allowed to say these things on this blog. Scripture says Nebuchadnezzar had magicians but only one lead by God (Daniel who wasnt a magician but one who feared God )had the answers given to him by God.
   Elijah was up against many false prophets but these men cut themselves all day calling on their gods to bring down fire from Heaven.Non succeed ,Elijah had them soak the alters down and he called upon The on True God the Creator of the Heaven and the Earth.And God responded gladly all was burned up water alter and sacrifice.
   Note there will always be false prophets,why ? We wrestle not against flesh and blood but principalities an power.The reason that all True prophets have a an opposing force is because the adversary does not love souls. He seeks to devour all of us Ezekiel 22:25, 1Peter 5:8 .

   The only way to distract is to implant much error with much truth.
   The truth is out there in Gods Word Daniel and Revelation. No need to look in the direction of modern day Israel.Look at American the lamb like beast and the other beast in which the Harlot sits on which sits on seven hills/mountains.

   End time truth is out there,seek it it can be found.

   LikeLike

10. To Todd,

    If you were baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, as it says in scriptures, using the Trinitarian formula, then you were “gennatha anothen” (the greek words) which may mean “born again” but is probably more correctly translated “born from above.”

    To say the Church of Rome does not teach this is falsehood. I’m saddened, but not surprised, that you believe this. Remember what Peter said of baptism: “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Also note the strong symbolism of the water baptism of Jesus by John in the Jordan. Jesus was baptized, then the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in the form of a dove. Then the voice of God declares from heaven “This is my beloved Son” (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). In like manner, we are adopted as Sons of God in baptism. In John 3:5, Christ speaks of being born of water and spirit. This is what Rome teaches of baptism, and it comes straight out of Holy Scripture. It is in baptism that we are “born again” or “born from above.” After Christ taught that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22).

    *This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, “In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (NIV).

    *In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” When Paul was converted, he was told, “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16).

    *Much of this is excerpted directly from http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp

    LikeLike

11. Here here, Michael – I completely agree. Hey, I’m not sure if you got my email or not – my friend Kevin Beck penned a compact little tome that offers a biblically-rooted but decidedly calm eschatology. He’s offering it for free download at his booksite, This Book Will Change Your World. I’d be fascinated to know your thoughts on it.

    LikeLike

12. I disagree. Wilkerson wrote several books YEARS ago on this subject predicting, FROM HIS READING OF SCRIPTURE, not from any message from God, what we could expect. And, gee…it’s played out. Dave Wilkerson never claimed to be a prophet, but he does claim to be a person who studies scripture and can apply it’s historical perspective (with the scriptural-based premise that God doesn’t change) in how God dealt with past societies and how God will deal with OUR society.

    LikeLike

13. The biblical message – the insruction of Christ – is that one “must be born again” and the catholic church teaches no such message so the catholic church should not be included as truly Christian. I speak as one who was catholic for over two decades and was never given the real/the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ, but was rather taught to obey the catholic church and try to be good enough in my own “filthy rags” to somehow merit Heaven or oh purgatory when i died (Isa. 64:6). So, it should be cited, that like myself, millions upon millions of lost souls out of the catholic church – people who never in the catholic church even heard the real Gospel – have been now born again and therefore came out of her (Rev. 18:4). Any wrong things done by misguided “evangelicals” does nothing to validate the myriad of falsehoods espoused and taught by the catholic church. “Ye must be born again.” (John 3:3, 7)

    LikeLike

14. I heard of an incident in a class at the Bible college I attended. The class was talking about the rapture and the “last trumpet sounding.” One of the guys had fallen asleep. The professor had everyone leave their papers and pens right where they were and leave the room. One of the students got his trumpet and blew one long blast just outside the classroom door. They said the poor guy woke up, looked around, and turned white as a sheet. — Fred

    Hee hee hee…

    I do have a story though, early 80’s in school, I had a prof who was ectstatic over the fact that the world buzzard population was booming, sure that God was preparing for Armageddon. heh. — Dad of Homeschoolers

    That’s a new one on me, and I thought I’d heard all the “proofs” during my time on the inside.

    Of course I had another prof who was sure Jesus changed the water into grape juice, but that’s another story. — Dad of Homeschoolers

    That’s just another salvo in the ongoing Battle of the Booze. IMonk’s written a few postings on that.

    LikeLike

15. Honorable mention:

    * Barcodes on products allegedly equalling 666

    Anyone remember the “IBM 3666” point-of-sale system Christian Urban Legend from the early 1980s?

    * Anything regarding the United Nations

    I’ve always figured they were the flip side of Globalists, who were actually closet Trekkies. How so? Because Trekkies KNOW that Star Trek is history written in advance and the UN is destined to become (gasp, with trembling lips) THE FEDERATION!

    * King Juan Carlos of Spain being the Antichrist (why him?!?!?!?)

    Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare, 1975. Traced back after the fact to the Jehovah’s Witnesses though none of the radio preachers breathlessly proclaiming “THIS IS IT!” at the time ever admitted to it. Wilkerson’s apparent knockoff of the date 2012 from the Mayan Calendar Hysteria is just the latest incarnation of this bandwagon.

    * The Beast computer allegedly in the heart of Brussels, Belgium, said to contain every bit of information known to man.

    Which actually originated in a work of fiction (an End Times novel, actually) and made the jump from true fiction to false fact around the third or fourth player of the game “Telephone”. Kind of like the “Demon-Possessed Cabbage Patch Dolls” that made the jump from National Enquirer to 700 Club way back when, or the Onion interview with J.K.Rowling.

    LikeLike

16. On a more serious note – “[our] brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse” — CatholicCollie

    i.e. they’re LIVING in a good approximation of Left Behind instead of in the prologue (and finding it Very Exciting).

    I for one have found that this whole “end of times” hype by our evangelical brothers and sisters is a great thing for the Catholic Church. We don’t preach any of it nor does the Church teach any of it. Just be ready at all times because any day could be your day. At my parish we’ve had many come to the fullness of the faith after being so disappointed and unfulfilled in Evangelical churches. — Born Again Catholic

    As did I after being badly burned by Left Behind Fever. (Ran into some crazy Catholics since I swam back across the Tiber, but all in all it’s been a much better fit.)

    This Easter our parish will welcome over 100 new into the full communion of the faith. — Born Again Catholic

    Woo. My parish usually has between half a dozen and a dozen.

    I’m a former pastor and one thing that used to always grate on my nerves was the competitiveness of our sister churches. It was really shown in what the second largest Baptist church in our town did with their name when they changed it from Immanuel Baptist to Exciting Immanuel Baptist Church! — Wendell

    Don’t know about how the term relates to churches, but in women seeking men, a guy who gets described as Exciting!(TM!) is often a user and abuser.

    And is the exclamation point yours (end of sentence) or theirs (official part of their name)? If the latter, start worrying; they have jumped the shark.

    LikeLike

17. It seems that many of David Wilkerson’s critics have overlooked his 1998 published booklet “America’s Last Call (on the brink of a financial holocaust) “, which spoke of the disappearance of wealth, and the crumbling revealing of the inadequate foundations of the debt driven economy.

    Regarding true prophesy: we westerners look for things to resolve within a near term news cycle or so. Biblical prophesy is not usually so. Unless a so-called prophet mentions a date, I would think that the prudent observer would watch and see.

    LikeLike

18. “The competiveness of America is in the church. Everyone likes to think they are better than the next guy based on what they “know”.”

    So true! I was very gratified to see my daughter’s church in the Houston area take time to pray for another local congregation every Sunday. Their belief is that other churches are not their competitors, but fellow soldiers and ambassadors.

    I’m a former pastor and one thing that used to always grate on my nerves was the competitiveness of our sister churches. It was really shown in what the second largest Baptist church in our town did with their name when they changed it from Immanuel Baptist to Exciting Immanuel Baptist Church! It probably got them some more menbers, but when the church is growing by stealing members from other churches, is it really growing? If the post-Pentecost church had to rely on swiping other church members, it would have stayed at 120 rather than the over 3 thousand it grew to in one day as they had to grow through conversions (salvation).

    Another thing that really irks me is church advertising, especially when it hits radio or TV and you hear some announcer saying, “Come here the dynamic preaching of Rev. Dr. Brother. Bishop Speaks A Lot, which will change your life!” Well you can tell that someone is full of humility there!

    All of this to attract the fickle churchgoer from whatever church he or she happens to be sitting in today. Thank God not all churches are like that, but too many really are.

    LikeLike

19. I’ve read through most all of these replies and find it all very interesting. I for one have found that this whole “end of times” hype by our evangelical brothers and sisters is a great thing for the Catholic Church. We don’t preach any of it nor does the Church teach any of it. Just be ready at all times because any day could be your day. At my parish we’ve had many come to the fullness of the faith after being so disappointed and unfulfilled in Evangelical churches. This Easter our parish will welcome over 100 new into the full communion of the faith.

    May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.

    LikeLike

20. “Catholics and Orthodox are allowed one comment to make fun of evangelicals.”

    Ok. Teehee, you guys are weird.

    (This is only in retribution for all the years of being told that I’m “not really Christian.”)

    😉

    On a more serious note – “[our] brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse”

    How true. We ALL need to work harder to acknowledge the true suffering of all people around the world and hopefully work to ease the burden to the degree that is within our power to change.

    LikeLike

21. “Its like everyone is too busy jumping on the “I’m not on THAT bandwagon, badwagon”, to have read through the original article.”

    That is true, Mary t. The competiveness of America is in the church. Everyone likes to think they are better than the next guy based on what they “know”. And not being “quick to read and slow to type”, they begin to cast stones with their words.

    As the scripturs say, “knowledge puffs up but love builds up”. Guess which one the LORD is interested in?

    LikeLike

22. Interesting conversation. I was kind of surprised though that it was 10 comments deep before anyone noticed that Wilkinson wasn’t preaching the end of the world–but just a local disaster. His ‘prophecy’ had nothing at all to do with end times eschatology. Its like everyone is too busy jumping on the “I’m not on THAT bandwagon, badwagon”, to have read through the original article. Kind of funny isn’t it?

    LikeLike

23. It saddens me to see Christians making fun of Christians. Why would you align yourself with the world to persecute thoses whome the Lord has paid for with His blood?

    Whether they are right or wrong in their view of the end times. Did Paul make fun of his brothers and sisters in Thessalonica? No, he gave them 2 Thessalonians explain how things will pan out.

    Does Matthew 5:22 not mean anything to you who insist on casting judgement on those with beliefs that do not match yours?

    LikeLike

24. Wilkerson may indeed be out-of-bounds with this or other past impressions from the Holy Spirit, but I have read comments scattered across the Internet from people who had knowledge of his church through a friend/relative who attended there before 9/11. They reported that Wilkerson & his church spent much time in intercessory prayer for what difficulty they sensed was coming on their city of New York a few weeks before it happened. I can’t prove this, but it is interesting. The good thing about Wilkerson’s post is that he claimed that it would “soon.” So, the clock is ticking and we will find out soon, one way or another.

    LikeLike

25. I love these 🙂 “Charts” someone needs to animate them!

    http://www.armageddonbooks.com/chartgift.html

    LikeLike

26. Honorable mention:

    * The use of credit cards leading to a mindset of acceptance of the Mark of the Beast in one’s right hand or forehead

    * Barcodes on products allegedly equalling 666

    * The color eye on your TV harboring a secret one-way camera in which the Government is watching your every move (honestly, though, would the Government even want to look at the couch potatoes munching on their Doritos and guzzling their beers while watching ESPN or Lost or The Office?)

    * Anything regarding the United Nations

    * King Juan Carlos of Spain being the Antichrist (why him?!?!?!?)

    * The Beast computer allegedly in the heart of Brussels, Belgium, said to contain every bit of information known to man.

    LikeLike

27. Imonk…

    So right…has it occurred to anyone that Christ is reigning RIGHT NOW, seated at the right hand of the Father? Has it occurred to anyone that our brothers and sisters across the world are living in THE Tribulation? Has it occurred to anyone to ask why the church in the US is not undergoing similar hostility…the world hated our Lord and He has promised us that it will hate us as well. We should be suprised at the comfort that we have and should be asking ourselves why that is…

    LikeLike

28. What is my best story regarding end-times fever?

    Personally, it’s becoming a Christian with Whisenant’s 88 Reasons book as the backdrop, and having that constantly on my mind.

    The rapture was supposed to bring peace and comfort, but somehow, being zipped up in the sky at 1,000 miles per hour and ripped out of my clothes didn’t set my mind at ease…

    I also remember walking down the street, looking east, and half-expecting the sky to peel back like a scroll, to hear some kind of horn and see a 1,000-mile-high Jesus step out just before I got zipped up 😯

    LikeLike

29. Generally speaking, Orthodox laugh at these people. However, on a visit to Mt. Athos, I met several monks who–independently of one another–volunteered the information that barcodes contain the “666” of the antichrist. I think this comes from 1970’s-era American Protestantism. This is by no means the only crazy theory I heard from Athonite monks (one of whom managed to cobble together something involving the Jews, Atlantis, and the Baconian authorship of Shakespear’s plays). But again, most rank-and-file members would laugh at these people.

    I read the first four “Left Behind” books and have to agree with Penthouse, whose review was titled “It’s the end of the world and the writing is bad.” The movies were all right, in the same way that Superman is all right–once you suspend disbelief and accept the premise, the rest of the movie makes a fair amount of sense.

    Oh yeah–and I found ONE example of “Christian fiction” (not counting Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Melville, etc.) that was actually good. “The Revolt” (forget the author), about a near-future religious-motivated secession of Virginia and North Carolina from the U.S.. Unusually for such fare, there were no “good” or “evil” sides, just foolish people and their venal politicians.

    LikeLike

30. I have a lot of respect for Wilkerson and have read many of his books. I even visited his Times Square Church once when I was in Manhattan. From that one visit, they seemed sound. There was no hint of sensationalism in the service.

    Earlier, I had a lot of trouble with Wilkerson’s harsh approach to Christianity and what being an authentic Christian is, but I noticed a change happening in the 90’s that made him apply a bit more grace and less judgementalism. I do know that his ministries have impacted multiple thousands of people and don’t doubt his belief in Christ.

    As for his prophecies, remember he is from a pentecostal background and that is a very strong tenet of the pentecostal stream of thought. Here is where I depart from most dispensational belief in that I don’t believe that Scripture teaches that prophecy has ended; however, I don’t look at prophecy as just foretelling the future. The more important aspect of prophecy is forth-telling of the Word. Has the foretelling ended? I don’t think so, but to me, if a person decides to take on the mantle, they need to be willing to face the responsibilities and consequences such as having the prophecies tested. While I don’t believe we should follow the Old Testament prescription of stoning prophets who don’t have 100% accuracy, it is incumbent upon us to reject those who prophesy in God’s name and are not accurate.

    My first test is to determine if the “prophecy” violates Scripture. I also look to see if the prediction really fits into that realm or if it is just common sense results of some other actions. Further, if the prophecy is something that the prophet himself can bring about (thus showing it is not a divine happening), I look on it with a jaundiced eye. Finally, if it passes the other tests, all I can do is wait to see if it occurs.

    The problem I have with Wilkerson’s current statements is that what he is predicting could easily be the natural consequence of a deteriorating economy. I’m not saying it isn’t of God, but like Piper, I have some concerns about it.

    LikeLike

31. I call b.s. on Alan’s assertion that Focus on the Family thinks the world will end in 2012 and that Obama is the anti-Christ.

    Please post a link where Dobson of FoF says the either the world will end in 2012 -or- obabma is the antichrist.

    If you don’t like Focus on the Family, please post genuine reasons, not made-up allegations.

    Thanks,

    Bill

    LikeLike

32. Joe,

    Just wanted to let you know that I have a copy of a Mass for the End of the World. It’s sung beautifully by 4 anonymous women. You have to get a copy of it. It is just great ! ! !

    (it was written in 1000 AD)

    LikeLike

33. Oh the timing! I’m currently editing a class curriculum about heaven and hell and end times for a prominent church in my area (that I don’t attend–they are a client as I’m a freelance writer). I couldn’t disagree more with the theology. And Larkin is quoted extensively in this class “book”. I’d never heard of him before, but I have NO desire to read his work.

    LikeLike

34. First of all, I would like to defend David Wilkerson. He is a man of God and his ministries have helped thousands of people. He and his family have suffered great physical and emotional trials, but they have all clung to the Lord and His word, encouraging many of us going through similar difficult trials. He deserves respect. He definitely believes what he has written; he wants us to be prayerful, not panicked. He is NOT afraid of what will come, and he does not want us to be either. Please have some respect for him.

    Also be very careful of being judgmental of “ordinary” Christians. My parents (89 & 93 respectively) have lived godly lives and are looking forward to being with Jesus soon. They’ve done nothing you would consider important, I’m sure. But when we go to put my dad to bed and I watch him reading his Bible, I am so encouraged by his faith. We should all live such “ordinary” lives.

    When I begin feeling that I know more than most people, the Holy Spirit always reminds me that Jesus said we had to come as a little child.

    Blessings.

    LikeLike

35. I do believe that Dr. Wilkerson was talking about an event in certain places rather than “the end”. But remember Noah preached for all those years that he was building the ark, yet NO ONE listened to him, when the end finally came. Maybe instead of casting aspersions on our brothers & sisters in Christ concerning their opinions on the END we should be preaching that THERE IS AN END and we want peoples everywhere to know Jesus before the END…whenever it come.

    LikeLike

36. I find myself troubled by the tone of the comments here, as it seems to me to be Christians bashing other Christians. If God is infinite and we are finite, infallible and we are fallible, omniscient and we see through a glass darkly (very darkly), then we walk a fine line between ignorance and arrogance. None of us should claim we have the whole truth concerning any doctrine or theology. It just isn’t possible. Nor do I claim to be free of personal bias. That Jesus will return, I trust and believe, otherwise our faith is in vain. But let us grant grace to our brothers and sisters who do not think as we do. We do not have to agree, and we can say so. But we can’t speak of them as fools if they indeed love the Lord Jesus. Can we?

    LikeLike

37. There are any number of premillenialists who have made wildly inaccurate predictions and suggested we jump on their bandwagon … but I haven’t forgotten Gary North on y2k. Postmillenialists have made some crazy and inaccurate predictions, too, so let’s be mindful of that.

    I’m anything but a dispensationalist and wish Wilkerson hadn’t made any dire predictions but I’m glad Piper’s being so gentle in his disagreement and now is a good time to remind ourselves that, whatever our eschatological views we, can find ourselves being anxious about things we don’t need to be anxious about.

    I was introduced to the possibility of non-dispensationalist eschatology by an Assemblies of GOd youth pastor. Seriously, I’m not making that up. As he explained it to me and others, the only things we can be sure about are Christ’s return and that we could all be wrong. My personal formulation has been that the promise of CHrist is assured in Acts 1 so clearly we can be generous in our disagreement about interpreting Revelation.

    LikeLike

38. Kix,

    The Lord set the tone between 1-10 but YOU my brother are not the Lord. None of us are. None of us has the right to assume the role of the Lord. Besides, God does not use a one-size-fits-all approach.

    Example 1: The Lord dealt with Peter (“Get behind me, Satan!”) more harshly BECAUSE Peter was supposed to be the leader, and leaders in the Church will be held more accountable than the sheep. Also, the Lord KNEW Peter, like he KNOWS each and every one of His flock. None of us can presume such of others.

    Example 2: When the woman was about to be stoned, he intervened. His words? “And neither do I judge you; Now, go and sin no more.” Where do you think he was on the scale of 1-10 in that incident?

    Being a Catholic (born into the faith, but re-evangelized to it in my 30s) I leave you with this from St. Francis of Asissi which I beleive is grossly misunderstood: “Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words.” Where I think it’s misunderstood is it’s not saying don’t spread the written word of God. What it IS saying is LIVE the written word of God. Turning people OFF is not living the written word of God. If you LIVE it, and practice the Christian virtue of Caritas love (love one another…) by taking up your cross, and taking care of your fellow “man” etc. and not presuming to judge his soul and people are still turned off, then they truly are those who “hear but do not understand.”

    But…if you persist in your self-righteous blasting of people that you have no idea of who they are and where they come from, then you have become no different than the bishops whose skulls “pave the floor of hell” (per St. John Chrysostom [gk: Golden Mouth])for failure to preach the truth.

    I think you’ve taken phrases like “God hardened their hearts” so literally, when it’s actually a hebrew idiom. Men harden their own hearts. We shouldn’t be an obstacle to their having a change of heart.

    When St. Monica went to her bishop, St. Ambrose to ask what she should do about her son who would later become St. Augustine, who was at that time a heretic and was living in sin, Ambrose told her to “Spend less time talking to Augustine about God, and more talking to God about Augustine.” You can figure out the rest of the story.

    LikeLike

39. To this post all I can say is amen!

    I am so sick of this…. I go to a church that has invited Kim Clement and many of what I would call the “Colorado Prophets” and “North Carolina Prophets” in and one of the recent ones goes into great detail on how certain hebrew letters are formed as if they have some secret meaning and blatently ignores the plain meaning of basic scripture.

    Here is my delimma. I love to see the physical manifest presence of God through the Holy Spirit but it seems all the evangelical churches are so into “control schemes” and unbelif that God would actually interact with His people that they shut down anything that has an edge to it. On the other hand churches that are open to this are open to all sorts of junk including prosperity gospel, demons in Christians and sensationalism. Oh that I could find a Church that had a strong basis in doctrine AND a genuine openeess to the Holy Spirit!

    LikeLike

40. (I’m not InternetMonk)

    Chris, in respect to Wilkerson, these prognostications, while not technically End-of-the-World, are very much in line with the EotW hysteria that tends to be common in various (not small) circles.

    Yeah, technically Y2K wasn’t EotW either, but it fell in line with the general message of “Incredible Calamity is Upon Us!!!!!!!!!!!!” A very sensationalistic message.

    Wilkerson has a lot of good aspects and does a wonderful work for Christ, but in the whole area of “Incredible Calamity is upon Us!!!” he is a bit of a whack. He has made a good number of those sorts of calamitous predictions, but none have come true. After the first couple, he stopped putting firm timelines on them, but didn’t stop making the claims. Without timelines, he can just keep saying that it hasn’t arrived yet, and can never be shown wrong.

    Other than his periodic excursions into predicting imminent calamity, he has worked tirelessly as a servant of Christ. He has my deep respect in MANY ways.

    LikeLike

41. I’m surprised no one has mentioned RH Benson’s “Lord of the World”, a Catholic end-times novel. It’s a good read. The end is a little vague and mystical, but it seems to be “amillenial” to use the modern category, although there certainly is tribulation before the finale. Protestantism has ceased to exist, having merged with Freemasonry, and the Church is only a sliver of its former size. I believe the world ends as the President of the World’s (who bears no slight resemblance to Mr.Obama…) forces move in on Armaggedon, where the Pope secretly relocated after Rome was obliterated. 😀 A guilty pleasure!

    LikeLike

42. Michael,

    There is no denying that with Israel becoming a nation again in 1948, the clock started ticking with regard to the end of the age. Does that mean Christians panic? Of course not. It means, if anything, we get excited and expectant.

    I just started reading David Jeremiah’s “What In The World Is Going On?” The signs so far of our times–albeit sobering in some cases–are exciting.

    No one knows the hour but the Father. But we can recognize the signs of the times.

    Joe.

    LikeLike

43. Verity

    You stated “In fact, the next great event in Bible prophecy IS the rapture itself.” and “However, we do know that the rapture itself begins the tribulation period”

    The fact is that what you state is not a fact, but merely the eschatological theory you have been taught. Throughout the history of the church this has not been believed, and today is not believed by most of Christendom. What the Bible does tell us is that Jesus is coming again. That is fact.

    LikeLike

44. If it wasn’t for reading the headline about Wilkersons message, I wouldn’t have found this great site, for that I thank him. Coming from an evangelical background I have asked many of the questions raised here about our cultural christianity, and I’m not convinced of any theory of end times. But, I didn’t understand Wilkersons statement as referring to the end times, he’d just had visions of fires in major cities and was burdened by it. Should he have just kept it to himself? I’m giving him a break for now, but will be interested to see if he’s made errors. I guess time will tell, but it’s never unwise to be prepared, you have to admit the times are getting strange in the USA.

    LikeLike

45. If there is always a Christian preaching “the end of the world is nigh” the sad fact is the very last one will be right.

    LikeLike

46. Dispensationalism, like all other theological constructs, has its strengths and weaknesses. I think the problem for us as humans is that we tend to overly attach ourselves to a theological framework and become so emotionally vested in it that we won’t recognize those weaknesses. I’ve seen this happen when talking about eschatology. I’ve personally known people who hold to the pre-trib view so strongly that they will break fellowship with anyone who holds a differing view.

    I somewhat take the attitude of the late Walter Martin who constantly told those who held a pre-trib view that while he disagreed with them, he actually hoped they were right as he had no desire to go through a tribulation period. While I don’t hold strongly to any view on this issue, I hope the pre-trib view is correct.

    I don’t know if it will happen in my lifetime or not, but if I am ready to meet Christ by my death, then I will be ready for his return.

    LikeLike

47. I used to be a pre-trib rapture guy. These days I have moved to a “pan-trib” position. I know that God is in control and it will “pan” out in His time. I find it harder to agree with the pre-trib view of the rapture precisely because it is mostly held in the opinion that God wants to spare His people from the tough times. It sounds remarkably like the prosperity gospel to me and I wonder how our brothers and sisters living in persecuted areas would feel about such a notion. Doesn’t the Bible say that those days will be “shortened for the sake of the elect” or something to that effect? (Matthew 24:22) God did tell us to be watching for His return and He did give indicators for greater watchfulness, but we don’t have a date set in stone nor a promise that we will be getting out before it gets bad.
    That said, thanks Martha for the warning about Ireland sinking. I will be watching for that “global warming” thing more now.

    LikeLike

48. I’m a little disturbed by some broad-brush characterizations of “pre-trib” believers. Seems like we are saying that they all believe in cataclysmic events like the burning of New York and Y2K, etc., having a survivalist mentality. Although I believe in the catching away mentioned in I Thess. 4:16-18 and that it will occur before the tribulation, preserving believing Christians from the wrath to come mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, I don’t share the former beliefs/attitudes. In fact, the next great event in Bible prophecy IS the rapture itself. When it will happen and just how bad things will get on earth before that, during the falling away of the church, we don’t know. However, we do know that the rapture itself begins the tribulation period and that afterward, the world will believe a lie concerning the event. I think all of the “end-of-the-world” scenarios being painted today in the secular and sacred realm simply serve to inoculate the world against the truth of God’s coming judgment, turning them from the urgency of personal repentance/salvation and preparing them to believe the lie.

    LikeLike

49. Jesus’ own words to His disciples stated that no one knows the “day or the hour” of the “day of the Lord.” (Mark 13) Yet He also gave immediately the parable of the fig tree beginning to blossom. Paul writes (I Thess 5:4) that we are not in darkness that we should be overtaken as a thief. I John by John the apostle states that “he that has this hope purifies himself”

    Most prophecy is written to God’s people under persecution to give them hope and confidence in God’s overruling providence. Have there been abuses of the dispensational interpretation, yes; does it deserve the kind of ridicule and abuse evident in the preceding posts, in my opinion, no.

    Both streams of interpretation rest on the basic method of biblical interpretation used. There is ample scholarship on both sides of the debate; what is needed, I believe, is a spirit of humility that recognizes that we all “see through a glass darkly”
    but are all members of the same body! I don’t apologize for taking the dispensational view and I respect fellow believers who take a different interpretation. Bottom line, Jesus is coming again and His admonition to us is to be ready.

    LikeLike

50. Chris, I believe Jesus set the tone between 1-10 when he said; “Get thee behind me Satan”. Because unlike the fluff & stuff savior many would like to paint him as, Jesus was not one to mix words and had no qualms about showing his anger with those he rebuked.

    LikeLike

51. Kix, I applaud you for your zeal, but sometimes if you’re too abrasive in your tone people will ignore the message you’re conveying. We’re all (mostly at least) Christians here. I’m just saying that a little civility goes a long way.

    To turn the tables (and apply another convenient proof text — Matthew 7:12), if you were in the wrong at some point, and say, a ‘1’ = no steam and ’10’ = full steam, would you rather someone come up to you and begin rebuking you at an 8? … or would you like them to start at a 2 or 3 and work up from there?

    LikeLike

52. Interesting blog. I’m still formulating an opinion on what you have to say on the few issues I have read; however, I will give you my take on the eschatology deal.

    I was raised in a S. Baptist church and had my fill of dispensational teachings. Though I agree with some premises of dispensationalism, I don’t necessarily agree with their view of eschatology. Frankly, I refuse to argue with a pre-tribber, post-tribber, pre-millenialist or whatever for several reasons.

    1. Scriptural backing. Everyone of every view has their own scripture base for believing as they do. Essentially, one can proof-text their way into any particular view by picking and choosing certain verses and putting them together into a patchwork eschatology. Seems more like eisegesis rather than exegesis to me.

    2. Jesus was clear that no one would know the day or hour. Yes, he did give us general signs (wars, rumors of wars, etc.) but by what benchmark do we judge these signs? How do we know when the particular wars we see are the ones that are to herald the second coming?

    3. Many of those I refuse to argue with are trying to use the rapture as an escape hatch. Much like the Jews in the Movie, Fiddler on the Roof. At the end of the movie, as the residents of the small town were told they would have to leave because of their faith (presumably), one young tailor asks the Rabbi if this isn’t a good time for the messiah to come. The Rabbi’s very wise response was to state they would have to wait somewhere else.

    4. If I am not ready to die right now, then I am not ready for the second coming. Many of my fellow evangelicals forget that.

    5. Too many times we interpret the Bible based based on the mass media. Perhaps we should take what the mass media is feeding us and run it through the filter of a biblical worldview. Take a more holistic approach to the issues we face in the world and quit looking at how things affect us. Rather, should we not be looking at the world in the way that Jesus looked at Jerusalem when he wept over it? He grieved over it and then went and died for it. He didn’t hunker down in his holy bunker, but did something and commanded his followers to act also.

    Sorry, started to get off on a tangent there.

    Like I said, I’m not sure yet where I stand on some of what I have read from you, but I do think you are bringing up some points that we as “evangelicals” need to face.

    I’ll keep reading and maybe comment a bit!

    LikeLike

53. Well Chris, I suggest you read Rev. 3:15-16. It was a message specifically given to those who have chosen to “turn the steam down”.

    LikeLike

54. Whoa, Brother (Sister?) Kix. Maybe you could turn the steam down a tad. 🙂

    LikeLike

55. First of all, I don’t think quoting the following scripture quite qualifies as the “end times hysteria” you’re trying to make it out to be.

    “And Moses said to the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will show you today…The Lord shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace” (Exodus 14:13-14).

    Second, where is this book promotion you mentioned? David Wilkerson is making his most recent book a free download on his website. You on the other hand offer a link to none other than the Michael Spencer wish list at Amazon.com and a direct link to purchase a book from your website for the low cost of $49.95. wow.. Talk about the pot calling the crystal stemware black.

    Might I suggest that while you’re sitting there bashing a Christian brother (you are still a Christian, right? Or have you reformed that as well?) consider the fact that everything you’ve said here has been repeated for centuries and can be summed up with five little words. “Surely you will not die”.

    Have a beer indeed. I don’t think that “Mighty Bright XtraFlex2 Clip-On Light” is the kind of light you need.

    LikeLike

56. 5 yrs ago when I first became believer, the topic of eschatology was almost immediately forced upon me. It perplexed me that so many revered people of Christendom could disagree ( so vehemently ) with each other on absolutes.

    Eventually I came to the realization, that Biblical prophecy wasn’t there so that we could predict the future, but that when the Future did happen it would only validate the authority and power of God’s word and ultimately Himself. After all it is the Revelation of Christ is it not ?

    So when People ask my about my view on End Times events. I simply just say.

    “I believe they are going to happen”

    it is the only right answer.

    & That is the Beauty of it. All God wants is our Trust in the matter.

    LikeLike

57. Paul, do you not think that it’s a bit anti-Semitic to allege that the church has taken over Israel’s blessings, and that their status as God’s chosen people has been usurped by the church? To THIS notion dispensationalists have always said a resounding, “No! God still has a glorious plan of redemption for Israel” — and this redemption is spoken of in Romans 11.

    LikeLike

58. The two turning points in my views of Pre-Millenialism came from conversations with a retired Baptist pastor who ministered to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. After a careful study of the Scriptural proof-texts for Pre-Trib Rapturism (that didn’t convince me as biblical), I looked at the people factor. What I saw in EV Pre-Millenialism was an inherent anti-Semitism: the Jews get fried during the Tribulation while Christians enjoy a banquet in heaven where, presumably, they can’t hear the cries to God from the recalcitrant Jews. Then I read the dire warning in Romans 11 about the hubris of Gentile Christians toward Jews. Then I decided EV P-M is callously egocentric and ultimately destructive of the Gospel.

    LikeLike

59. Once again Wilkerson is spewing out another “predictive” prophecy. At least this time he was wise enough to say it without putting a date on it like he did in the 1970’s with his book “The Vision.” He should have been banned from his pulpit them for a blatant false prophecy. He is unrepentant in this after 3 decades. He does on a large stage what Pentecostals of all stripes due on a small stage nearly every Sunday, give “prophecies” which later turn out to have been false. Why will the church not discipline its members and put these people out as charlatans?

    If as the author of the article of coming evangelical collapse is correct and only the charismatics will be in large numbers, the collapse will be total.

    LikeLike

60. When does prophecy become prophecy?

    Who determines when prophecy is prophecy?

    I didn’t read where David Wilkerson said that time was going to end.

    LikeLike

61. Michael, thanks for the questions. I believe I’m speaking for most dispensationalists in saying we believe that in during a 7-year Tribulation period preceding the Second Coming of our Lord, Israel will be attacked by several other nations — from her north and from her east, most significantly.

    This will occur around the climax of this 7-year period, at which time the Lord will descend with his army to defend Israel and judge these nations. This, we believe, is prophesied in Daniel 9, Matt. 24, and throughout Revelation (I could give more specific references if need be). Around the beginning of this 7-year period, we believe the nation of Israel, almost completely en masse, will recognize Jesus Christ as their own Messiah, and evangelize for him. This, we believe, is the removal of the partial hardening spoken of by Paul in Romans 11 and mentioned in several other passages.

    To answer the second question, some do and some don’t. I haven’t decided what I believe about this yet (this also holds for the time of the rapture — I just don’t know). If sacrifices are reinstated (during Christ’s millennial kingdom, for instance), it will be to commemmorate Christ’s Sacrifice, just as the Mosaic sacrifices looked forward to this Event. I realize that this notion chafes the sensibilities of a lot of Christians, and I understand why — but by the same token, the fact that the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice livestock for several centuries, I would suggest, causes the same internal reaction in us — yet this was God’s will, was it not?

    In several of the OT prophets, you hear God saying (to paraphrase): “You (Israel) WILL obey my laws. I will ensure that. We WILL get this relationship right at some point. You WILL walk with me.” I think those kinds of statements might be fulfilled during the reign of Christ, the thousand years spoken of in Scripture, when he rules the new earth from Israel, and Israel worships him as he prescribed. Then the Mosaic, Davidic, Abrahamic and New Covenants will all be fulfilled at once, in their fullness.

    A counter-question for non-dispensationalists is, “How do you account for the very specific prophecies about Israel laid down in Ezekiel 40?” It seems a huge stretch to me to try to allegorize things like: “And the side rooms, one reed long and one reed broad; and the space between the side rooms, five cubits; and the threshold of the gate by the vestibule of the gate at the inner end, one reed” (v. 40:7, ESV).

    Ultimately, I find dispensationalism so tenable (in spite of its unwieldy name!) because it takes account of passages like this, and like Daniel 9, very thoroughly, and to me, very satisfactorily. But hear me, I respect my covenant theologian friends. Their system is coherent, even if (to me) it does not have the same explanatory power. What I DON’T do is bash them and treat them as if they’re a semi-cult for believing as they do. I’m not saying you have done this or do this, Michael — just commenting on some of the attitude I pick up on- and offline, at times, towards ‘dispies’.

    LikeLike

62. @Headless Unicorn Guy

    “As in “Even Ned Flanders has more sense than that”?
    (Think about what I just said…)

    Or the “Lifeboat” parody in the episode when a comet was about to impact Springfield?”

    –both actually, bravo for catching it.

    LikeLike

63. Just because Chicken-Little was wrong last time doesn’t mean that the sky can’t fall in the future.

    I agree that ANYONE trying to predict the “day or the hour” of WHEN the 2nd coming will occur is an idiot that doesn’t know scripture … but that-being-said, Jesus and the prophets did describe signs and situations to indicate when the end of this age was close and at-hand.

    I think MS’s rant on this has become a classic case of throwing out the baby with the proverbial bath-water.

    The whole thing, on Spencer’s part, seems to me to be a sour-grapes exercise in apologetics for the cause of Mary Baker Eddy: “Whack-the-Conservative-Evangelicals-who-don’t-speak-well-of-us-and-call-us-a-cult.” I think another name for that is wish-fulfillment.

    jb

    LikeLike

64. I see Wilkerson and his ilk as being all part of God’s plan for the end of the age. They are intended to marginalize and bring contempt on the people of God. The heathen world will become hardened to any idea of Christ returning.

    Not only that, people within the Church will become discouraged also and the very biblical doctrine of premillenialism (I am Posttrib) will be despised and ridiculed as it is on this site.

    So, mock away. But don’t expect to be patted on the back by Jesus when you see Him coming in the clouds.

    LikeLike

65. One thing that really bothers me about the whole dispensational pre-trib scene is how much importance the devotees place on it. It seems to be a primary article of faith, rather than an unessential that we can disagree about. I had an experience similar to austin (top of the comments): an otherwise sound, local “Bible” church refused to let me become a member because I could not sign their statement of faith that included a specific pre-trib rapture section. This ranks in importance with salvation by faith, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, etc? I may well be there today if it wasn’t for that unnecessary bit of discrimination.

    LikeLike

66. (1) do not believe in a rapture at all or (2) do not believe in a tributlation period or (3) do not believe in any theological view except that things will go on just as they have been (sort of reminds one of the “days of Noah”, doesn’t it?). I could be wrong, of course – there’s always a first time.

    On a historical note there are:

    Many Christians who wouldn’t believe in a ‘rapture’ – the majority historically.

    Some Christians who don’t believe in a tribulation – mostly postmills with a few amills.

    Very few Christians who believe that things go on and on forever – mainly hyper-preterists on the internet.

    You dont’t have to believe in a rapture to be an orthodox christian.

    LikeLike

67. I received an email in the week prior to the inauguration that fit well with the Bible study on the Old Testament prophets I began in January at the church I pastor.

    Someone down in Florida had a near-death experience in which “Jesus” gave him a specific prophecy regarding the Rapture. According to this guy, President Bush was the last president before the Rapture, so something would happen on January 19 to prevent Bush from leaving office.

    I replied to the person who sent it to me:

    “OK, this sounds intriguing. I wonder if the guy will submit himself to stoning if it doesn’t occur, as prescribed in the Mosaic Law for false prophets.

    “I’m expecting a somewhat quiet weekend. Gymnastics Friday night, sermonizing Saturday night, and 2 glorious worship services Sunday. I suspect I’ll make my doctor’s appointment on Monday and receive a renewal of my Adderall prescription.

    “If he’s right, I’ll apologize to him in heaven after the Rapture.”

    I suppose I’ll have much for which to apologize in eternity, but doubting someone’s near-death prophecy won’t make the list.

    LikeLike

68. Okay, I am thoroughly confused. In glancing through all these posts it seems as though those posting either (1) do not believe in a rapture at all or (2) do not believe in a tributlation period or (3) do not believe in any theological view except that things will go on just as they have been (sort of reminds one of the “days of Noah”, doesn’t it?). I could be wrong, of course – there’s always a first time.

    I supposed I’m one of those consumer-oriented Christians, or a “fat cat”, for believing in a pretrib rapture. Actually, I don’t really care when it occurs because I know God is in charge of the whole thing and He will never allow His own to be ashamed – maybe martyred but not ashamed.

    [mod edit]

    Anyway, just wanted to say that I believe Jesus is coming again – we don’t know when and He doesn’t either – but we DO know it is going to happen. [mod edit]

    LikeLike

69. Couple points.
    We are to be wise as serpents, and respond to the times
    Being a calvanistic armenian myself, my philosophy is witness to them all and let God sort them out, and a panmillieniumist, that it will all pan out in the end.
    I do have a story though, early 80’s in school, I had a prof who was ectstatic over the fact that the world buzzard population was booming, sure that God was preparing for Armageddon. heh.

    Of course I had another prof who was sure Jesus changed the water into grape juice, but that’s another story.
    dadofhomeschoolers.

    LikeLike

70. Chris:

    two questions

    Do dispensationalists believe that the Jews in Israel now are going to be largely wiped out in a Holocaust?

    Do dispensationalists believe that Jesus will return and reinstate temple worship, with sacrifices?

    just curious.

    ms

    LikeLike

71. Beth,

    I heard of an incident in a class at the Bible college I attended. The class was talking about the rapture and the “last trumpet sounding.” One of the guys had fallen asleep. The professor had everyone leave their papers and pens right where they were and leave the room. One of the students got his trumpet and blew one long blast just outside the classroom door. They said the poor guy woke up, looked around, and turned white as a sheet.

    LikeLike

72. * It does not follow that dispensationalist eschatology must be wrong or unorthodox because it has inspired cheesy films and books

    * Most non-dispensationalists I have met don’t really understand the key points of dispensational hermeneutics and eschatology — but will bash the system, nevertheless; I’ve stopped listening to them for this reason

    * The vast majority of dispensationalists don’t try to predict the end with accuracy, but do heed Jesus’s words in Matthew 24: “You will know the signs of the end,” etc.

    * Many of the early Christian lived in expectation of the end, believing Jesus would return during their lifetimes, and while it’s wrong to obsess about these things, it’s also wrong to go to the other extreme and say “Where is this coming he promised?” (2 Pet. 3:4)

    LikeLike

73. Beth, that was genius!

    True story: I signed my life over to Jesus in November 1987, right before the whole “88 reasons why the Rapture will happen in 1988” thing started gaining steam. Being young and ignorant, I sent a little money to the people running that canard and got their booklet detailing the “88 reasons”. Two things I found:

    1) They only had about 20 “reasons” that pertained to why they thought the Rapture would happen in that particular year. The rest were either repetitions of those 20, or reasons why they thought the Rapture would happen at some point, or urban legends, or … you get the idea. And most of the 20 “reasons” weren’t all that compelling to a fairly naive college freshman (which I was at the time).

    2) I’m pretty sure they spent far more money on mailers to get me to donate more than I sent them in the first place — and were still sending them to me OVER A YEAR after the time they said the Rapture would happen had come and gone.

    That started my education on what goes on behind the scenes (and in the minds) of some so-called ministries. I’m no longer that naive.

    Also, I read the entire Left Behind series, and all it did was enforce my belief that evangelicals are willing to read any novel that claims to be “Christian” as long as the writing is mediocre. The fact that a middling talent like Jerry Jenkins is now head of the Christian Writers’ Guild says a lot about the (low) standard of writing quality upheld in Christian fiction circles. (Okay, getting off topic here …)

    LikeLike

74. There’s a dude over at Worldview Weekend that say the Jesus will return in our time. He says he knows this because Daniel is told in that the vision he has seen is sealed until the end times and that when people with insight and wisdom understand it, then it will be fulfilled. He understands the prophecy, where evidently no on before him did, therefore it is the end time and Jesus will come back in our time.

    LikeLike

75. Ah, yes, the prophecy of St. Malachy! Blame the Irish! 🙂

    For those of you who have been so unfortunate as to miss this, it’s a list of Popes alleged to have been seen in a vision by St. Malachy, the 12th century archbishop of Armagh, going all the way up to The End Of The World. (Needless to say, there’s no evidence St. Malachy ever had anything to do with this ‘prophecy’).

    The apocalypse-watchers have made a parlour game out of trying to match up the popes with the predictions; for Benedict XVI, they took the last one on the list (before “Petrus Romanus”, the very final Pope) which is “De Gloria Olivae” or “glory of the olive”.

    As Wikipedia neatly lays it out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

    “Prior to the papal conclave, this motto led to speculation that the next pontiff would be from the Order of Saint Benedict, whose symbols include the olive branch.
    Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, elected in April 2005, is not a Benedictine, but did choose Benedict XVI as his regnal name, partially named after Benedictine founder Benedict of Nursia), which might be regarded as a fulfillment of this prophecy.”

    No, if you really want to know when things are looking bad, then I can inform you of the reliable, infallible sign: St. Patrick (during his fasting and prayer on Croagh Patrick) obtained as a favour that seven years before the end of the world, Ireland would sink beneath the waves (he could not bear to think that the island he loved would be subjected to the destruction of fire and all the rest of it detailed in Revelation).

    So – if we start subsiding, the rest of ye have only seven years left! 😉

    LikeLike

76. “With Easter coming up, what are you waiting for?”

    I think I’ll stick with the whackin’ great delicious chocolate Easter egg, thanks all the same.

    Though Joseph – maybe I should pass this on to my sister? I have young nephews (9 and 12) who are ripe to be saved!!!!! by video gaming! 😉

    LikeLike

77. I have a friend who was a very ambitious practical joker. Late on Saturday night, when he was in Bible college, he set up his car, engine running, his clothes neatly laid out in the drivers’ seat. He got most of his dorm mates to lay their clothes out in their beds or in front of a running TV. One guy was left to weep and wail and cry out, “I’ve been left behind!”

    Then the resident end-times-obsessed roommate arrived home from a late date. I wonder if he’s recovered yet.

    LikeLike

78. Didn’t C.S. Lewis say something in Mere Chrisianity about not understanding people who say they can’t wait for the second coming because when the author walks out on stage the play is finished?

    Dave Wilkerson wrote a end of the world book back in the 80’s called The Vision. I read it when I was around 18ish. So, what happened to that vision? Doesn’t the Bible talk about prophets whose prophecies don’t come true.

    LikeLike

79. IMonk said: “Catholics simply don’t lose their minds over this sort of thing.”

    When I was a practicing Roman Catholic I was completely unaware that there was any such thing as end times prophecy. Remember, the average “Joe” Catholic who sits in the pew week after week, dropping their five dollar bill in the basket does not read the Scriptures. They hear the readings at the weekly mass and that is all the Scripture they get. They are not aware and therefore do not even participate in end times discussions.

    I have never read the Left Behind series nor do I put much stock in those with end times predictions. I do hope however that the end times occurs in my lifetime. I can not think of a more exciting time in the life of the Church than being a part of “wrapping this whole thing up”. I would like to be a part of the Church that gets to see it and participate in it. I am not afraid of it. Bring it on.

    Come Lord Jesus Come!

    LikeLike

80. The fact is, end-times sell.

    The church in the USA is effectively operating like any other free-market capital enterprise. If rabid eschatology gets numbers, sells books and makes money, then do it. After all, it’s all about numbers – because empty pews mean empty coffers.

    The same can be said of gay rights and evolution. If people will pay to be suspicious of the science they don’t understand, and the gay people they didn’t much like in the first place, then these issues will take pride of place (over third world hunger, massacres of Sudanese Christians, wars in the middle east, greed, and anything else actually important that Christ preached about.)

    LikeLike

81. “I still have a fear of guillotines.”

    That seems a rational fear to me. 🙂

    At least if you don’t obsess over it.

    LikeLike

82. Ahhh, end-times prophecy.

    One of the things that nearly shipwrecked my faith.

    Specifically, I lived in fear for years after reading Salem Kirban’s books 666 and 1000 as a pre-teen.

    I still have a fear of guillotines.

    LikeLike

83. I didn’t see it anywhere in the comments and I apologize if I missed it. Has anyone brought up the deal with St Malachy? I remember it being a big news item after Pope John Paul II died, because there was supposedly only two popes left now, Bendict XVI and whoever the last one will be. Not that I am placing any stock in that one either, but it fits here in this conversation.

    LikeLike

84. The NEWEST Pretrib Calendar

    Hal (serial polygamist) Lindsey and other pretrib-rapture-trafficking and Mayan-Calendar-hugging hucksters deserve the following message: “2012 may be YOUR latest date. It isn’t MAYAN!” Actually, if it weren’t for the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised pretribulation rapture bunco scheme, Hal might still be piloting a tugboat on the Mississippi. roly-poly Thomas Ice (Tim LaHaye’s No. 1 strong-arm enforcer) might still be in his tiny folding-chair church which shares its firewall with a Texas saloon, Jack Van Impe might still be a jazz band musician, Tim LaHaye might still be titillating California matrons with his “Christian” sex manual, Grant Jeffrey might still be taking care of figures up in Canada, Chuck Missler might still be in mysterious hush-hush stuff that rocket scientists don’t dare talk about, John Hagee might be making – and eating – world-record pizzas, and Jimmy (“Bye You” Rapture) Swaggart might still be flying on a Ferriday flatbed! To read more details about the eschatological British import that leading British scholarship never adopted – the import that’s created some American multi-millionaires – Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (note LaHaye’s hypocrisy under “1992”), “Hal Lindsey’s Many Divorces,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)” and “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun),” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “Chuck Missler – Copyist,” “Open Letter to Todd Strandberg” and “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Humbug Huebner,” “Thieves’ Marketing,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts,” “Dolcino? Duh!” and “Scholars Weigh My Research.” Most of the above is written by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson who has focused on long-hidden pretrib rapture history for 35+ years. No one else has focused on it for 35 months or even 35 weeks. MacPherson has been a frequent radio talk show guest and he states that all of his royalties have always gone to a nonprofit group and not to any individual. His No. 1 book on all this is “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online, etc.). The amazing thing is how long it has taken the mainstream media to finally notice and expose this unbelievably groundless yet extremely lucrative theological hoax!

    [I recently collided with above web bit – Anthony]

    LikeLike

85. My personal one is when a co-worker was convinced that 9/9/99 was going to be THE DAY. Those numbers mean something upside down! This was about 4pm in the afternoon they day before, and I called up the Jerusalem Post’s website to see if there was any news on 9/9/99 about people disappearing. There wasn’t, so that was the end of a lot of theorizing.

    Re: Left Behind Video Game. I’ve heard so many awful things about that game that I’ve started scouting out the local CBA store to see if it’s in the clearance aisle yet. It is, but it’s still $15 and I’m not paying that much for a joke.

    The other story I have is the Jack Van Impe album I used to own from 1971. Jesus will come back no later than 1977, so be prepared.

    LikeLike

86. Anglicans don’t have a specific creed. The 39 Articles is more of a misc.

    LikeLike

87. This hit my in-box today:

    Subject: IMPORTANT: One of the most urgent Youth-focused Evangelism opportunities in years
    To:

    (Please read and forward this email to your Sr. Pastor – this is very important. Thank you. )

    As you know, the LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces PC Game has brought more than 1000 gamers to Christ! And now, we are offering the #1 best-selling Christian game of all-time in an EVANGELISM PACK for your church or ministry at a price you can not pass-up ($49.95 for 25 games; just $2 per game)! This is a $475 retail value for just $49.95.

    And this version of the game includes the original Left Behind Novel paperback edition, too, right inside the box!

    We only have 10,000 units remaining. When they’re gone, they are gone! With Easter coming up, what are you waiting for?

    Please order your pack NOW at

    Grateful to serve with you during these uncertain times.
    With warm affection in Christ,

    LikeLike

88. You left out Anglicans — as far as I know we’re ALL amillennial (at least in Australia). I have never read a Left Behind book and only saw an excerpt from the movie in Bible College because we were doing an overview of Revelation and the teacher wanted to give us a sense of what dispensationalists believed (since most of us had never met this stuff). Most of us just sat shaking our heads in amazement. I know they do sell Left Behind at the christian bookshop, and I know a few people who have read it — but all the ones I know just thought it was a fictional thriller.

    I do have one exception though, my scripture teacher back in 6th grade. (Yes, we do STILL have people from local churches come in weekly to teach “scripture” in state schools)She was an elderly Anglican lady who, week by week gave us a bible story we’d all heard before. Then, one week, just the once, it was like she morphed into someone else. She started talking about the book of Revelation, jumbling up the whole lot in one 30 minute lesson. she told us (this was 1966) that Jesus was going to come back by 1970, 1975 at the latest, because we were all Laodiceans. We’d never heard this stuff before or after, and were just confused. The fact that the world is still going post-1975 forever hardened me against end-time panics.

    LikeLike

89. Lindsey wrote a book called “The Liberation of Planet Earth” that was one of the first in-depth discussions of the Gospel I ever read. Probably sold ten copies, and I have two.

    LikeLike

90. I was actually led to Christ after reading the Late, Great Planet Earth.
    It was to this sci-fi aficionado a doorway into at least considering the claims of the gospel.
    That many of these people now seem to be whack jobs (Lindsey, La Haye and others) seems irrelevant to me now.
    There is serious academic and theological work that seems to support the dispensationalist, pre-trib point of view so I do not dismiss it outright.
    However, as IM has pointed out, nobody knows so I don’t worry about it any more.
    Looking back it all seems like a lot of hype and phoniness but it did help me to see the Lord as a Person involved in the world and not a god on Olympus unconcerned with the ways of men.

    LikeLike

91. I lean away from the whole rapture/end of the world is here approach to Revelation. Seems like mostly Hollywood crap to me. But maybe it has something to do with the fact that at church camp as a kid, we had “rapture practice.” Now granted, it was a tongue in cheek sort of thing, but still… You have 100 or so middle school and under kids and you tell them to jump in the air with their hands up to practice for the rapture?? That has got to leave some sort of scar. In fact, my younger brother brought a friend with him one year. He was a pretty good kid, but ended up mostly being a pot head for a long time. Years later, he was sitting with my brother (and probably high) and said “you know what’s really messed up… how they used to make us do rapture practice at that camp.” Nice way to turn impressionable minds towards Christ!

    LikeLike

92. Nathan,

    Wilkerson avoids that by denying knowledge of when it will happen. This leaves his predictions open to the defense that “it hasn’t happened yet, but just you wait!” If he would predict when these horrible events will happen, and thus leave himself open to being proven right or wrong, it would be easier to gauge his authenticity.

    LikeLike

93. whoa asked ‘What if Wilkerson is right or wrong?’

    I’ll consider him worth listening to if he’s willing to submit to Deuteronomy 18:14-22. God laid out some really specific consequences for false prophets — people who announced things that didn’t happen.

    Back then, the consequence of a false prophecy was death. Painful death, usually involving rocks and other things that would legitimately be called cruel & unusual. I’d be satisfied with modern ‘prophets’ giving a “or I’ll shut up and go away” guarantee on their words. If there’s no consequences for being wrong, then why should we take someone seriously?

    LikeLike

94. Ah, the Three Days of Darkness! I vaguely remember some murmurings about that back in the 80s (merciful hour, what *was* it about the 80s in Ireland? It was a very grim time, to be sure, but still!)

    Never really got off the ground around here, though; most people prefer the traditional pilgrimages to Lourdes and Fatima (and Medujuorje got really popular for a time) if they’re going to indulge in prayer and mortification. Actually, Lough Derg is still *the* Irish pilgrimage destination for penance and suffering (and it’s home-grown to boot!) with climbing Croagh Patrick on Reek Sunday (the last Sunday in July) second favourite.

    Though ‘mortification’ is perhaps not the mot juste; my mother went on the pilgrimage to Lourdes for the first time in her late 60s and the second year the parish group went, they were almost kicked out of their hotel because of the nightly hooleys (which were so good, pilgrims from other countries staying in other hotels used to turn up for the craic). The proprietor did *not* think this was a reverent way for pilgrims to behave – of course, they’d never had Irish staying in this particular hotel before. The next year she went, they made sure to stay in a different hotel 😉

    Praying and visiting the grotto during the day, then drinking wine, singing and dancing at night – I think Chaucer would recognise that 🙂

    LikeLike

95. whoa:

    Then you do what Jesus says. You do what Third world Christians do every day.

    Tomorrow has enough trouble. Live today.

    peace

    ms

    LikeLike

96. Best story (or worst)…the charismatic church I went to highschool was abandoned by the head pastor because he needed to move to another state and find a cave to live in during the end times…

    And also, my mother is convinced that she is going to hide Jews (Corrie Ten Boom) style during the end times…she even has a bunch of cohorts who are all planning a sort of underground railroad.

    LikeLike

97. wilkerson might be wrong. but what if he is right? what then?

    LikeLike

98. Ah Michael…. Larkin’s Dispensational Truth – that thing was on our bookshelf at home for as long as I can remember. My dad was really into that at the time and remember reading and looking through it several times when I was youger and still at home – I didn’t understand much of it at the time but what little I did tended to scare the
    hell out of me and it finally got to where it stayed on the bookshelf and I don’t know if dad still has it – probably does as he is still into that though not as much as he was when I was a child. You’re right on the charts – it was, still is, the big daddy on that front excepting maybe John Hagee’s charts which are wall paper for the stage his church in San Antoino. Great stuff! Thanks!

    The Guy from Knoxville

    LikeLike

99. I hadn’t heard about the Three Days of Darkness, but in reading the bit about taping over vents and not going outside and if you are caught outside you will die…it kind of sounds like a nuclear bomb went off!

    Growing up Catholic, I don’t remember hearing much about the “rapture,” but for a while I was involved with a charismatic independent Protestant group and they would talk about that a lot. Luckily (I guess), they emphasized the joy that we would have as we joined Jesus in the sky and didn’t “gloat” about all the horrors the unbelievers would have to face.

    LikeLike

100. I belong to a church that got started when Jesus *didn’t* come back in 1844 (Seventh-Day Adventist). There is still an almost exclusive focus on Daniel and Revelation in some conservative circles.

     As a holdover from the late 1800’s, the Pope is the traditional Adventist Anti-Christ, and some “evangelistic” crusades are apparently rather lurid

     http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2009/02/21/what_public_really_says_about_adventist_evangelism

     (discussions similar to those here)

     LikeLike

101. …like a website that will send emails to all of your family and friends, letting them know you’ve been raptured? — Alan

     Ever since hearing of that site (a pay-per-message site, by the way), I have wanted to trip their deadman switch and send out ALL their stored emails.

     I think TV Tropes would call this “Hilarity Ensues”…

     LikeLike

102. It is a sad testimony to the pampered and weak nature of Americans in general that even the least disturbing event: (think recession, stock market losses, rising gas prices, unemployment, a non-white president, or 13 American Idol finalists instead of 12) leads to the type of anxiety, paranoia and fear which provides a fertile ground for others to sew the most outlandish claims of impending doom.

     And yes, compared to past events and current events elsewhere in the world, these are trivial things that will pass just like the 73′ oil embargo and Adolph Hitler.

     My father finally helped get me off the Hal Lindsay bandwagon in the 70’s (I was really being a Pharisaical jerk at the time) by telling me “I don’t know when Jesus will return, and neither does anyone else, but one thing’s for sure; it is one day closer today.” That to me sums up in the simplest way possible, the proper and accurate belief system on the matter.

     LikeLike

103. I read this yesterday. Funny, DW is one of the few people I would bother giving a second glance to, although his way of looking at things is a bit skewed IMHO.

     But still, something about this resonated for me. But who knows, maybe I’m just cracked and more susceptible to apocalyptic doom-mongering than I consciously realise 🙂

     LikeLike

104. I commend the best book on the end times I know. ‘And the lamb wins’ by Simon Ponsonby. It is reasoned biblical insight amid existing libraries full of books written out of fear, lunacy and silliness about the last days. Well worth checking out.

     LikeLike

105. Three Days of Darkness — the Catholic answer to Left Behind Fever. I first heard of it from a somewhat-flaky Trad Catholic, then from my Assyrian sister-in-law (one of her relatives was VERY into it). Surprisingly, my writing partner (a Protestant pastor) had also heard of it.

     It’s supposed to be three days of supernatural darkness covering the world as part of the kickoff to The End (which in this eschatology is not so much a seven-year checklist as a series of supernatural heralding events separated by indeterminate periods of time). It’s also referred to as “The Chastisement” (which is also the Catholic EotW term for what Evangelicals call the Great Tribulation). Here’s what I remember about it:

     1) Only Blessed wax candles will give light; the Darkness will drink up all other light sources. (Someone over at Slacktivist mentioned his relatives obsessing whether synthetic wax blends would qualify or whether they had to be 100% beeswax.)

     2) Only grapes left to soak in Holy Water will give nourishment. (My in-law’s relative was said to keep a bottle of holy water filled with grapes on her person at all times just in case.)

     3) All who are not sealed indoors when the Darkness comes will be struck dead. Those who are caught outdoors without shelter “will die as martyrs” (no further clarification of this term). All who even peek outside (“to watch the demons eating all the Protestants” — my writing partner) will be struck dead.

     4) Satan and all his demons will be released from Hell for these three days to “Chastise” the world and all people living will be completely aware of their sins as God sees them.

     I’m not sure of the aftermath of all this, but (from some side comments on Slacktivist) apparently post-Darkness the world will be completely Trad-Catholic, monasteries and convents filled to overflowing, etc. And when this Catholic Golden Age wears off, another apostasy will take place and the next phase of The End will begin.

     LikeLike

106. HUG
     Re: your comment “Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist ATE 15-20 years of my life. Who will restore the years the Pre-Trib Locusts have eaten?” I laughed so hard, the cat jumped off my lap.

     Martha

     You stated “Live every day as if it could be your last, because one day it will be.”
     This is so true.

     We must be ready and anticipating Christ’s second coming,as Christians have been doing since his ascension.
     Rapturists are so eager to be taken and often so sure that they will be “raptured” in their lifetime. In reality,all Christians to date have not experienced the second coming yet, and no one has been raptured. All Christians before us have died and the same will probably happen to all of us before Jesus returns, but when we die we are with Him. As Martha said “Live every day as if it could be your last, because one day it will be.”

     To be a little pharasaical, I thank God that I was not brought up with rapture teaching.

     LikeLike

107. >…Mr. Wilkerson may be right, and he may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure he’s FOR the cause of Christ.

     I agree.

     LikeLike

108. Anna, HUG posted a link to a very comprehensive “three days of darkness” site. I’m just goggling that amid the apocalyptic destruction, true believers are supposed to “put adhesive paper on vents” inside their houses. (It’s really in there; I couldn’t make up something that crazy-but-mundane! 😉 )

     LikeLike

109. HUG,

     I’m glad that you mentioned the 3 Days of Darkness, because I was going to. It is pretty wild.

     To Evangelicals. The 3 Days of Darkness is a Catholic End times view. When there will be perfect darkness outside, that you have to seal out, and only blessed beeswax candles will burn. I think that you also have to spend much time prostrate in prayer.

     LikeLike

110. …in 1985 there was an outbreak of moving statues in Ireland.

     I remember reading about that; travel writer Eric Newby was in Ireland at the time and published a chapter on it in his book Round Ireland in Low Gear.

     LikeLike

111. I grew up being taught pre-trib rapture, as did most of my friends. Every one of us has a memory from childhood about coming home to an empty house and absolutely freaking out because we thought we’d been left behind. This was a terrifying concept as a kid. And even as a teenager, if I came home and the house was empty there’d be that nagging fear of “what if the Rapture just came and I missed it?”

     LikeLike

112. Though I can’t really laugh; in 1985 there was an outbreak of moving statues in Ireland.

     Look up “Ballinspittle” for yourselves. Wikipedia has a very restrained, succinct, mention of it which doesn’t get near the hysteria of the time:

     “In the summer of 1985, Ballinspittle received national and international attention when some locals claimed to have witnessed a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary moving spontaneously. As news of the phenomenon spread, thousands of pilgrims and spectators flocked to the site of the statue. Many of the visitors claimed that they observed similar movements. The Catholic Clergy in Ireland maintained a neutral stance regarding the authenticity of the claims. The phenomenon was never scientifically confirmed.”

     I do remember the various theories floated to explain what was going on, generally that it was an optical illusion brought on by staring continuously at the statue in dim light against the dark background.

     We even had an alleged apparition in this neck of the woods, at the grotto near Mount Melleray. Usual thing – calls for prayer and repentance (no harm there) with claims that God was angry with the world and, if we did not change our ways, within ten years the devil would be running rampant (harm there). Even had busloads coming down from the North at the height of it.

     Things have calmed down; people still go and pray, but what you’d expect at a grotto, and there have been no movements, apparitions, or messages since. My father, who liked to visit the grotto and pray in latter years, never went near the place at the height of it, since he followed the lead of our parish priest who said why would people run after the likes of this, when if they wanted a miracle, they could visit God present in the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle?

     But then, people do like chasing after signs and wonders.

     LikeLike

113. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: How did I ever miss the “well to hell” hoax?! [heehee]

     LikeLike

114. imonk –

     I read Wilkerson’s blog and Piper’s response, but you missed my point. First, Wilkerson didn’t say, “This is it – it’s all over but the shouting!” Second, I didn’t say I even agreed with him or that he speaks for God like Isaiah. My point is that I don’t see the need to ridicule the man. Mr. Wilkerson’s been a Christian probably longer than you and I have been alive, and he’s dedicated his entire life to serving the Lord. Didn’t Jesus say, “Anyone who’s not against us is for us.” Mr. Wilkerson may be right, and he may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure he’s FOR the cause of Christ.

     LikeLike

115. Y’know, it’s as if there’s a mail-order-diploma-type School of Alarming False Prophecy out there… 😉

     iMonk, *love* the post!!!

     LikeLike

116. J, you forgot to mention that some of us engage in ritual cannibalism where we insist we consume the flesh and blood of our divinity every Sunday 🙂

     LikeLike

117. For those of you who can’t get enough of this kind of nonsense, here’s an equally weird polemical website devoted to, and in earnest, proving how the Left Behind is REALLY OF THE DEVIL!

     And yes, they’re selling a book.

     http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/more_about_GOD%27S_WRATH.html

     What number am I supposed to text if I want to stop being a Christian?

     LikeLike

118. In general, I have always had great respect for Wilkerson. My family closely followed his ministry when I was growing up. I read “The Cross and the Switchblade”, as well as other materials by Wilkerson. And of course Teen Challenge and Times Square Church seem to do great things for the down-and-out in New York.

     But Wilkerson’s end-times hysteria has always given me the willies. He seems to be so intent on calling down judgment on those who don’t follow his strict interpretation of holiness.

     What the cause of all this is, I couldn’t begin to say: maybe its an insecure need to be noticed, maybe its an ends-justifies-the-means mentality of scaring people into the kingdom of God, maybe he really believes what he is saying. (My eyes got opened not to take everything he says seriously when I found a copy of Charisma from 1983 when he said he “knew” from God that he had less than 10 years to live. Its 2009 and as far as I know, he is still alive and well.)

     At the end of the day, Wilkerson is a like a lot of Christian leaders who have accomplished great things for God, but are sill flawed human beings capable of error.

     LikeLike

119. I’d also point out that Michael O’Brien, a Catholic novelist that I like, has warned of the end times in his Father Elijah novel, and in his writings on the web. Google Studio O’Brien and you’ll find his stuff.

     LikeLike

120. Two words: mailing list.

     This is all about maintaining that list and adding more “giving units” to it. Standard operating procedure for all political issue groups. Long ago Hal Lindsey (and others) learned how not to go broke. They are accessories to the fringe right-wing media (which uses the similar tactics). (Fringe left-wing has their own version of this system.)

     Mailing lists are power.

     LikeLike

121. Powells Bookstore in Portland has a novelty item. A metal plate that fits between your piece of bread and the inside of the toaster that burns a perfect image of the Virgin on your toast when you toast it.

     With these down economic times, can you image what you could earn on E-bay? What about a 30 minute info-merical on Daystar. We’re talking $$$$$$$! Throw in a Kincaid-inspired figurine for free.

     LikeLike

122. It’s funny how you think this kind of thing is categorically stupider than pregnant virgins, men returning from the dead, holy wounds, all modern terrestrial species being descended from single-pair gene pools, self-replicating pita-n-sushi, et al.

     LikeLike

123. btw, Ned Flanders didn’t get in the bunker when the end came. — Drew

     As in “Even Ned Flanders has more sense than that”?
     (Think about what I just said…)

     Or the “Lifeboat” parody in the episode when a comet was about to impact Springfield?

     LikeLike

124. btw, Ned Flanders didn’t get in the bunker when the end came.

     LikeLike

125. Some were so disappointed they flat-out claimed the disclosure was a lie and that the *real* Third Secret was yet to be known. Mainly, our “end of the world is coming! any second now!” votaries tend to be associated with private revelation and obscure apparitions. — Martha

     Obscure apparitions is right. That’s how we RCCs tend to flake out. (Along with “Three Days of Darkness”, that is.) I used to say (and still do) that “When Protestants flake out, it’s usually a Here Comes The Antichrist end-of-the-world scare; when Catholics flake out, it’s usually some form of ‘Mary Channeling’ (weird Marian vision).”

     Makes me wish St Mary would ACTUALLY appear to some of these wannabe visionaries and slap some sense into them.

     LikeLike

126. AH, Left Behind Fever. I could probably write a longer post than IMonk on this; Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist messed up my head REAL good back in the Seventies. (When Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth was the 67th Book of the Bible, superseding all the previous 66. Henry Kissinger — or was it the King of Spain? — was PROVEN from SCRIPTURE to Be The Antichrist and we were all waiting for the nuclear war to start, with the Rapture scheduled for when Gog & Magog’s first warheads were cutting atmosphere over their targets…

     Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist ATE 15-20 years of my life. Who will restore the years the Pre-Trib Locusts have eaten?

     Well, there is this church I know, quite well, but shall remain nameless to protect the guilty, where about a third of the congegation left because the pastor refused to use the Left Behind series as a Bible study. — Rod

     Not surprising. Left Behind fanboys KNOW LB IS the 67-88th Books of the Bible, superseding all the others. It’s like the Da Vinci Code fanboys that caused so much hassle for tour guides in Rome.

     P.S. Rod? Back in the Seventies there WERE “Bible Studies” that used only Late Great Planet Earth (and maybe the other 2 1/2 books: Daniel, Revelation, and the “Nuclear War Chapter” of Ezekiel). I was there. I ended up in three or four of them in a row; after all, “Christ Is Coming Soon! All the Prophecies before His Return HAVE Been Fulfilled! We Might Not Have a 1978! Or Even a 1977!” (Actual quotes from period preaching.)

     It is now 2009. These days, I am VERY skeptical of any such claim.

     I am not, nor have I even been, a Baptist, but I went to a Baptist school from K-7th grade. One of my Bible teachers brought in a cassette once and played it for my class. He said that some men had been digging deep in the earth and had apparently found a portal to Hell. The cassette was several minutes of people screaming. — Thom

     Ah, yes. The Well to Hell HOAX; I remember when Rich Buhler (now at truthorfiction.com) traced and debunked that one on the air, while all the other Christians were running around in circles screaming “THIS IS IT!!!!!!”

     What Dispensational craziness? Do you mean things like a website that will send emails to all of your family and friends, letting them know you’ve been raptured? Or a website that counts down until the rapture? Or a website that has an “antiChrist watch,” alerting faithful Christians to potential world figures who qualify as the antiChrist? — Alan

     Alan’s NOT making any of this up. The first “Haw! Haw!” website got mentioned in Slacktivist’s blog, and I’ve seen and experienced pre-Web versions of the other two.

     Whatever, we all know that Obama is the antiChrist and the world will end shortly after 2012–at least, Focus on the Family claims that, and we all know Dobson is inspired. — Alan

     Dobson’s went off the deep end some time ago; as IMonk put it, “drove right off a cliff with his followers in the car.”

     2012 — as in Mayan Calendar and Nostradamus? Talk about “following the bandwagon”…

     LikeLike

127. I saw the same type thing happen as arpritchett mentioned, except with the Darwin on the Wall story in the Onion (also a satirical site). This story had Darwinists flocking to see an image of Darwin on a water-stained concrete wall. More than once I ran into Christian bloggers who thought this was a real news story.

     LikeLike

128. Imonk says, “Does it occur to most Evangelicals that their brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse? If we have a Columbine or a Katrina, John Hagee is n TV the next night with a chart so big you can see it behind him. Meanwhile, in Sudan, it’s all just another day at the office.”

     Ditto, ditto, ditto! Did I say “ditto” yet?

     I got really angry when a group of people at our (not so flaky) E Free Church in Minn. starting meeting in preparation for Y-2-K. They kept telling me how important that I come to their meetings and handing books and tracks at church. I had to throw one in the trash right in front of our music director who had handed to me. I know it was rude. But, they were going out shopping at Fleet Farm for generators and Cabelas for MREs (military food) and I was getting sick of hearing about it.

     The thing that made me angry (besides Christians once again being stupid) was the audacity of them to be so selfish to live in survivalist-luxury. Were they storing up a year supply of chemicals for their hot tubs? It wouldn’t surprise me.

     I had to participate in doing a surgery in the middle of the night in the Middle East, using only a 12 volt battery and a car head light for lighting because the missionary hospital couldn’t afford a generation. Who in the hell do we think we are that we need one for Y-2K to keep our plasma screen tvs going so we can watch the home shopping network (or maybe TBN)? How many kids could those MREs keep alive in Sudan?

     I think Mark Noll said it best in his book the Scandal of the Evangelical Mind:

     “The evangelical predilection, when faced with a world crisis, to use the Bible as a crystal ball instead of a guide for sorting out the complex tangles of international morality was nowhere more evident than in the responses to the Gulf War (Gulf War I) in 1991.

     Neither through the publishing of books nor through focused consideration in periodicals did evangelicals engage in significant discussions on the morality of the war, the use of the United Nations in the wake of the collapse of Communism, the significance of oil for job creation or wealth formation throughout the world, the history of Western efforts at intervention in the Middle East, or other topics fairly crying out for serious Christian analysis.

     Instead, evangelicals gobbled up more that half a million copies each of several self-assured, populist explanations of how the Gulf crisis was fulfilling the details of obscure biblical prophecies.”

     LikeLike

129. Michael, do you own The Greatest Book On Dispensational Truth In The World by Larkin?

     If so, you know that thing goes for around $65 on Amazon, right?

     I remembered an amazing End Times hype story.

     Before the election, LarkNews.com (a Christian satirical news website) published an article about people touching the hem of then-Senator Obama’s suit and being healed. Someone e-mailed it to a local Christian radio talk show host, who read it on air, taking it as a serious piece of news. and For most of the morning, people were calling in asking if we were going to be Raptured before President Obama took office. It wasn’t until one of the show’s ending segments that the host realized his mistake.

     LikeLike

130. You’re just against democracy imonk! You’re like people who hate bloggers and want only “real journalists” to be able to speak to the unwashed masses. It’s not fair that only God should have access to this information 😉

     LikeLike

131. Sorry, I don’t buy this End Times crap. I’ve come to regard it as spiritually dangerous besides. People spend all their time running around looking for proof we’re living in the End Times. Instead of trying to work to make the world a better place they just accept that the world is going to hell in a handbasket because this is the End Times, and things are supposed to get bad at the end. Also, consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25). Five of the Virgins didn’t bring enough oil. Why? They thought the Bride Groom would be coming sooner than he was, so they didn’t think needed it. You can compare this to the End Times crowd. They’re so sure the end will be soon, that they’re not prepared for the long haul. Seriously, remember college when we were all into the End Times stuff – did any of us think we’d still be here all these years later? Remember the first Gulf War, and everyone was sure this was some great sign of the end being at hand? Well, guess what? We’re still here. I think some of the spiritual burn out and periods of falling away were caused by this End Times mentallity. We weren’t prepared for the long haul, but thankfully God is good, and He didn’t come back and shut us out while we were out of oil. If you go back and read Church History almost every generation was absolutely sure they were going to be the last generation. This may or may not be the End Times, but I think if we devote ourselves to doing the things we know He wants us to do – “Love your neighbor as yourself,” “Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength,” “As you do it to the least of these….” and stay strong in studying Scripture, so we don’t get fooled again (thanks to The Who) then we won’t need to worry about if it’s The End Times or not. They’ll take care of themselves, and He’ll take care of us.

     LikeLike

132. The Evangelical fetish to know more than the other guy just has no brake pedal. When the debate on Revelation in the canon was going on, the fear was……..this. And that was correct. Now everyone with a slide rule and a magic cat can tell you when the antichrist is going to have his teeth cleaned.

     Looks at the creeds people. Look at them: Why do they say so LITTLE about this subject? Why no detailed scenarios? Think about it.

     LikeLike

133. Love it! Love it! Love it! Had so much fun reading this post. Still waiting for some orthodox jokes. I tried to start a facebook group once “Iam a Protestant or evangelical christian and never read any LEFT BEHIND book”. Failed badly. 😉

     LikeLike

134. Surprised there isn’t more hate comments here. I blogged on Dispensationalism (against it, btw) for a while, and you would have thought that I called Jesus a girl. In fact, an ancient heresy would probably have been welcomed by some of the same people who talked to me as if I had abandoned Jesus, the Bible and my own sanity.

     What Dispensational craziness? Do you mean things like a website that will send emails to all of your family and friends, letting them know you’ve been raptured? Or a website that counts down until the rapture? Or a website that has an “antiChrist watch,” alerting faithful Christians to potential world figures who qualify as the antiChrist? Or people, like some friends of mine, who moved their gun safe down into a bomb shelter, with all their necessities and a year’s worth of food, waiting for Y2K to roll on around? Or following a belief system so far as to actually deny that Jesus is the Messiah, while still claiming to be a Christian (a Messiahian)?

     Whatever, we all know that Obama is the antiChrist and the world will end shortly after 2012–at least, Focus on the Family claims that, and we all know Dobson is inspired.

     -Alan

     LikeLike

135. I read “The Dispensational Truth” in my early teens whilst on a holiday at Christian guest house with an extensive library. I never realized it was such a widely read book – the production qualities even for Christian books at the time was quite whacky as I recall.

     My take on this is that it’s the Christian equivalent of UFOology and Conspiracy Theories. In fact there are elements of both in some popular versions of dispensationalism. TBH I think it shipwrecks a lot of people’s faith.

     I can’t take this sort of thing seriously ever since I found out that a grand-uncle of mine once caused a church split/cult emergence by claiming that he had been told by God that the Second Coming would happen in 40 days. There are still a few chastened survivors of the ensuing nonsense quietly trying to live it down.

     LikeLike

136. Mr.monk, I think you forgot

     f) multiply idiocy for fun and prophet (sp?)

     I’m thinking that a fascination with bizarre future scenarios is a heck of a lot easier than that towel around the waist thing in John 13. And if we knew the deatails of HIS return, would we be any more prepared, REALLY ?

     enjoy your posts, daily
     Greg R

     LikeLike

137. “If we have a Columbine or a Katrina, John Hagee is on TV the next night with a chart so big you can see it behind him.”

     You’re a good man, Mr. Spencer!

     I am not, nor have I even been, a Baptist, but I went to a Baptist school from K-7th grade. One of my Bible teachers brought in a cassette once and played it for my class. He said that some men had been digging deep in the earth and had apparently found a portal to Hell. The cassette was several minutes of people screaming.

     I liken most apocalyptic “literature” to that experience. When’s the next horse and pony show?

     Great post and commentary.

     (I reserve my right to use Comment Option #1 at a later time.)

     LikeLike

138. My best evangelical apocolypse story? Well, there is this church I know, quite well, but shall remain nameless to protect the guilty, where about a third of the congegation left because the pastor refused to use the Left Behind series as a Bible study.

     LikeLike

139. Dear Sir,

     I recently taught a 15+ week study on the Revelation to a group of our church members. They agreed that the whole concept of a pre-trib rapture reflects American consumerism as much as it does proper theology. Of course its an eschatology that would appeal to middle/upper class Anglo Americans who have never really suffered for their faith. If I can be forgiven by a Christ who suffered for my sins, then trust that He’ll come back before I suffer for my faith, then sign me up!

     We also agreed that if we talked to the suffering church in China or parts of Africa, their response might be, ‘What do you mean we’ll be raptured before the tribulation? What do you think we’ve been enduring for generations?’

     Thanks for the post. Always enjoy your work.

     Yours, L

     LikeLike

140. I’m stunned that Evangelicalism still has large numbers of people so cynical about scripture they prefer this kind of thing over the plain statements of Jesus.

     Jesus trumps all the current prophetic crowd, OK? He’s right. They are wrong. Case closed.

     LikeLike

141. I stopped reading this stuff after reading 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will be in 88, which came out one year before 89 Reasons Why the Rapture Will be in 89. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

     Here was one of the reasons: In 1988, the US was going to have its 212th birthday, and 100th congress. Water boils at 212 F (which is 100 C), and therefore the world was coming to an end. The book was filled with utter garbage such as this.

     One of my life goals is to never read a Left Behind book. I’m doing good so far: I’ve never even held one in my hand.

     Here’s a link to failed Wilkerson prophecies in the past: http://www.geocities.com/asterisktom/wilkerson.html Absolutely no one should listen to this guy. (HT: Rod Dreher/Crunch Con).

     LikeLike

142. Big “V”:

     You’ve said so much I didn’t say, I don’t know where to start.

     Read Piper’s response.

     We should say what the Bible says and no more.

     If you believe Wilkerson is inspired like Isaiah, I’ll have to say I disagree.

     peace

     ms

     LikeLike

143. About the time the “Left Behind” books started being published and were all the rage, I was getting over an illness and staying with some friends who attended an evangelical church, and I ended up going to church with them for about six months. I was amazed (and a little turned off) by the number of new converts I saw there–walking up the aisle at the altar calls, becoming ‘saved’ because, as the preacher would explain after the invitation, they’d read “Left Behind” and were so scared they would be left behind. I found it a little disturbing, to say the least, that people were being frightened into the Kingdom by a piece of bad fiction.

     LikeLike

144. So, let me make sure I understand – God didn’t speak to David Wilkerson, and we know this why? I’m sure the folks back in the day “blew-off” Isaiah, too. I’m just saying, I don’t think the brother’s a “whacko,” and he’s not promoting a book on the end times, is he? Maybe he feels genuinely led of the Lord to warn people of a coming disaster. I’m not prepared to make a judgment, so I think I’ll cut him some slack.

     LikeLike

145. I don’t think we Orthodox have any room to mock or denigrate Left-Behindery. Actually, the Rapture is a great marketing tool compared to the Orthodox prophets who maintain we’ll all get shellacked by Antichrist.

     LikeLike

146. A few years ago I saw a chart showing when various people predict the end will come. Apparently someone will get it right, because all periods of time for the foreseeable future were covered.

     This stuff does sell books and draw attention, right?

     But it is totally irrelevant to me. What matters to me is whether or not I am prepared for my last day. It could be today. I could drop dead from a heart attack, or be smashed on the highway. But whenever that day will come, in the scheme of all things, it will be soon. But I follow Jesus not because I fear that day, but because He is with me today and will be with me whenever my last day comes, whenever that will be.

     LikeLike

147. It’s the classic cboice between altruism and narcissism: either you let the Gospel tell you what to do, or you use the Gospel to tell others what to do. The minute you get a handle on the rhetoric of Imminent Disaster, you realize it’s a weapon; it serves no purpose other than to let ordinary people feel attached to an extraordinary force – and just like with kids, if you have 2 and give one of them a stick, it’s only a matter of time before the other one gets hit with it.

     LikeLike

148. I’m not defending Left Behind madness, but to give Wilkerson a fair shake, I *believe* he’s talking about something bad happening to NYC or the USA in general, not the end of the age. In other words, I take him to be an Agabus, not a Tertullian.

     LikeLike

149. Our church was Scofield dispy all the way. I was enrolled in a Moody Institute Scofield course before I was in college. My pastor gave me the books of Clarence Larkin, and I still have the mother of all chart books, Larkin’s Dispensational Truth. All of this LONG before I was ever taught the Gospel.

     LikeLike

150. Matthew, that’s a great sample of the breed. God love them, they’re pious and enthusiastic, but morbid.

     LikeLike

151. It wasn’t until I was in a New Testament Survey class my freshman year of college that I knew there was an eschatological position other than premillenial rapture. I was horrified at first to learn that people believed something other than what I was taught.

     Sigh…

     LikeLike

152. Ah, I have no intention of making fun of Evangelicals. But just to let you know how localised this obsession is, I remember going to the cinema to see the film of “The Late, Great Planet Earth” back when I was a teenager.

     I thought it was going to be a science fiction movie, which tells you how little we knew about the whole Rapture/Millenium/End of Days scenario 😉

     Now that I think about it, I have absolutely no idea how it got shown in our town. Maybe the cinema owner also thought it was science fiction? 🙂

     LikeLike

153. “Does it occur to most Evangelicals that their brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse?”

     Great point. When you are being hunted by your government, it qualifies as at least the Very, Very, Good Tribulation.

     The churches in much of the world have good reason to pencil in Jesus’ return for sometime next week. Many of us in the US could assume He dropped off all the material blessings and went to start on another universe somewhere.

     LikeLike

154. Imonk,

     this is great, I saw this on drudge and wondered when you would comment on it. I just don’t get the end times obsession with us evangelicals. I grew up in an area that was very amillinial sp? Even mentioning the rapture or a tribulation would get you a good whack on the head with a Thompson Chain Refernence Bible, only a heretic caried a Scofield, but oddly enough from the mid 70’s on the area was taken over by premill guys

     I have actually been denied a position in a church recently b/c the preacher could not accept that as an educated baptist I would not be premil,it was like i had green hair, i still hold to the general resurrection view,

     his church was looking for an assistant pastor and the church was a great fit for me as far as worship style, the committee thought I was good for them, the pastor and I had several conversations, and I gave him my word that I would not publically or purposefully question or undermine his teaching, evidently he preaches on it a lot, which is strange to me, I rarely preach “on the end”

     anyway I simply told him that if asked that I would not lie about what I believe and that I would continue to teach my children in my home what I felt was correct, that was too much for him and despite our great commonality he was not able to look past my rejection of dispensationalism

     It can go both ways, the church i currently pastor halted a revival mid week in the 60’s b/c the evangelist turned out to be premil

     I preach whomever I feel is the right man, i have preached both types and find that most ministers understand that there is much more to preach on than those things

     LikeLike

155. I’ll take Comment Idea 2…I remember sitting in my Christian high school Bible class in ’89, watching the clock at the exact time the rapture was supposed to happen. Most of us didn’t take it seriously, and we just laughed when the time passed. There were a few, however, that were really freaked out until it didn’t actually happen. I was surprised back then that anyone took such predictions seriously, but I was amongst a bunch of teenagers. Still surprised how many adults believe the predictions, too, even in the face of so many failed attempts.

     LikeLike

156. Well, we do still have the “forthcoming chastisement” prophets, but a lot of them were heavily invested in the Third Secret of Fatima and were exceedingly disappointed when the Vatican revealed it a few years ago.

     Some were so disappointed they flat-out claimed the disclosure was a lie and that the *real* Third Secret was yet to be known. Mainly, our “end of the world is coming! any second now!” votaries tend to be associated with private revelation and obscure apparitions.

     Also – well, I don’t know if they still do it now, given the state of catechesis, but it used to be a popular story for the nuns to tell in Christian Doctrine class – we were exposed at early ages to anecdotes of saints being asked “What would you do if the world ended tomorrow?” The general pattern of the tale was a group of young seminarians or whatever all gathered together during recreation, playing cards or billiards or some such game, and they raised this question in idle discussion, and most of them said something along the lines of go to confession, receive the Blessed Sacrament, pray. Then the saint (usually St. Ignatius, but sometimes St. Alphonsus Liguori or someone else) was asked, and he said “I would finish playing the game.”

     The moral of the tale, we were instructed, was to live in such a manner so that if the next day was your last, then you need not worry or make unusual efforts. Live every day as if it could be your last, because one day it will be. Last-minute repentance is vain; if you strive to live a Christian life, then you need not make frantic efforts to save your soul but can just continue on calmly as always.

     Though I think what we young heathens carried away from it was “Eh. No point worrying.” 🙂

     LikeLike

157. Thanks for the plug, Michael. And I totally agree. If there is ever a time for some humble eschatological agnosticism, it is now.

     LikeLike

158. Three Days of Darkness?

     LikeLike