UPDATE: I’ve been linked at Out of Ur, GetReligion and all over today. I want to say two things to all of them: 1) The CSM piece was on the commentary page. It is commentary, not news or research. 2) I did not say that evangelicalism is dying. I said it is going to decline quickly to a smaller, more chastened, more diverse, less influential form.
For all my new readers, here are the original, longer and more detailed “Coming Evangelical Collapse” posts.
The Coming Evangelical Collapse: Part 1
The Coming Evangelical Collapse: Part 2
The Coming Evangelical Collapse: Part 3
Couple of notes on the original posts that may clear up some commenter feedback:
1) I clearly said that evangelicalism was going to suffer a collapse, not at all meaning it would die. I said that HALF of evangelicals would be something else within 2-3 generations/10-20 years.
2) I clearly said I am not a researcher or a prophet.
3) I am all about church planting and new churches.
4) Megachurch evangelicalism will survive on size, not on fidelity to the Gospel.
5) Pentecostalism has more energy, not less problems. It is also more cross cultural and open to the work of the Spirit.
The Internet Monk Archives 
It is a waste of efforts for the christian community to expect changing the world through politics and man’s governments. Christ the King of kings does not expect us to behave that way. Let follow the way of early christians and seek for the gospel which is taught not by the persuasive power of the intellect but with the demonstration of the power of the Holy Ghost. Christianity has fallen into the trap of the ennemy trying to win souls by the intellect, failing to proclaim the power that is in the blood of Jesus and failing to spend more time into prayers than useless politics. Remember, the devil presented all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in Mathew 4 but Jesus declined it. But Jesus was well poised to win the whole country trough the power that he manifested. His disciples did the same, without all those mighty deeds no one would be talking about christianity today; the same is for Moses as well.
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Somehow evangelism got pushed aside and the topic has become pre and post trib rapture. Below is what I thought was the first topic posted was about evangelism. I copied the first quote and posted it below so those who have lost their way can get back to evangelism.
“Couple of notes on the original posts that may clear up some commenter feedback:
1) I clearly said that evangelicalism was going to suffer a collapse, not at all meaning it would die. I said that HALF of evangelicals would be something else within 2-3 generations/10-20 years.
2) I clearly said I am not a researcher or a prophet.
3) I am all about church planting and new churches.
4) Megachurch evangelicalism will survive on size, not on fidelity to the Gospel.
5) Pentecostalism has more energy, not less problems. It is also more cross cultural and open to the work of the Spirit.”
Everyone wants to argue about where and when a Christain is going when God judges. Shouldn’t we be more concerned with getting the guy saved and the message it takes to do that. The apostle Paul teaches before you can get a guy saved you got to get him lost. He does that in Rom 1:18-3:20 if your reading the right bible. Beginning in Rom 3:21-5:11 he teaches how a man is justified. From Rom 5:12-8:39 he sanctifies him. Evangelism I have always thought is getting the lost saved. Once you get him saved then he can figure out the great hope of the rapture for himself. That is what the bible is for and is written so the quikened soul can understand.
(2 Tim 3:16-17) “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: {17} That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
How do we do that?
(2 Tim 2:15) “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
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In a seminar course this morning on American evangelicalism, we discussed the helpfulness of “evangelical” as a label anymore considering the splintering that Evangelicalism has already undergone in the last two decades. As a post-fundamental evangelical, I prefer that the “collapse” did not occur so soon (I don’t like change that much), but I understand why it probably will. Spenser’s analysis is most likely pretty accurate…regrettably.
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(for dessert read this web item just found! – Tom)
PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY
by Dave MacPherson
When I began my research in 1970 into the exact beginnings of the pretribulation rapture belief still held by many evangelicals, I assumed that the rapture debate involved only “godly scholars with honest differences.” The paper you are now reading reveals why I gave up that assumption many years ago. With this introduction-of-sorts in mind, let’s take a long look at the pervasive dishonesty throughout the history of the 179-year-old pretrib rapture theory:
Mid-1820’s – German scholar Max Weremchuk’s work “John Nelson Darby” (1992) included what Benjamin Newton revealed about John Darby in the mid-1820’s during his pre-Brethren days as an Anglican clergyman:
“J. N. Darby was a very subtle man. He had been a lawyer, or at least educated for the law. Once he wanted his Archbishop to pursue a certain course, when he (J.N.D.) was a curate in his diocese. He wrote a letter, therefore, saying he had been educated for the law, knew what the legal course would properly be; and then having written that clearly, he mystified the remainder of the letter both in word and in handwriting, and ended up by saying: You see, my Lord, such being the legal aspect of the case it would unquestionably be the best course for you to pursue, etc. And the Archbishop couldn’t make out the legal part, but rested on Darby’s word and did as he advised. Darby afterwards laughed over it, and indeed he showed a copy of the letter to Tregelles. This is not mentioned in the Archbishop’s biography, but in it is the fact that he spoke of Darby as ‘the most subtle man in my diocese.'”
This reminds me of an 1834 letter by Darby which spoke of the “Lord’s coming.” Darby added, concerning this coming, that “the thoughts are new” and that during any teaching of it “it would not be well to have it so clear.” Darby’s deviousness here was his usage of a centuries-old term – “Lord’s coming” – to cover up his desire to sneak the new pretrib idea into existing posttrib groups in very low-profile ways!
1830 – In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled “church” members before Antichrist’s “trial” [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled “church” members – the first instance I’ve found of clear “pretrib” teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 “The Morning Watch” (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his “Irvingite” followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit – the first plagiarism I’ve found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of “church” members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google “X-Raying Margaret” for info about her.)
NOTE: The development of the 1800’s is thoroughly documented in my book “The Rapture Plot.” You’ll learn that Darby wasn’t original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child – symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby’s later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today’s defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn’t need later reminiscences to “clarify” its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; and that after Darby’s death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” – a sample of the current exciting internetism!)
1920 – Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “DispenSinsationalism: C. I. Scofield’s Life and Errors” (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.!
1967 – Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon’s “The Origins of the Brethren” quoted Darby associate Lord Congleton who was “disgusted with…the falseness” of Darby’s accounts of things. Rowdon also quoted historian William Neatby who said that others felt that “the time-honoured method of single combat” was as good as anything “to elicit the truth” from Darby. (In other words, knock it out of him!)
1972 – Tim LaHaye’s “The Beginning of the End” (1972) plagiarized Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
1976 – Charles Ryrie”s “The Living End” (1976) plagiarized Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970) and “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
1976 – After John Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976) brutally twisted Robert Gundry’s “The Church and the Tribulation” (1973), Gundry composed and circulated a 35-page open letter to Walvoord which repeatedly charged the Dallas Seminary president with “misrepresentation,” “misrepresentations” (and variations)!
1981 – “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (1981) by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson heavily plagiarized George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America.”
1984 – After a prof at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God in Florida told me that the No. 2 man at the AG world headquarters in Missouri – Joseph Flower – had the label of posttrib, my wife and I had two hour-long chats with him. He verified what I had been told. But we were dumbstruck when he told us that although AG ministers are required to promote pretrib, privately they can believe any other rapture view! Flower said that his father, an AG co-founder, was also posttrib. We also learned while in Springfield that when the AG’s were organized in 1914, the initial group was divided between posttribs and pretribs – but that the pretribs shouted louder which resulted in that denomination officially adopting pretrib! (For details on this and other pretrib double-mindedness, Google “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”)
1989 – Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the “Mac-theory” (his reference to my research), giving the impression there’s no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800’s – whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite – credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie’s contribution! Moreover, I’m hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism’s territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven’t mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.
1989 – Greg Bahnsen and Kenneth Gentry produced evidence in 1989 that Lindsey’s book “The Road to Holocaust” (1989) plagiarized “Dominion Theology” (1988) by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice.
1990 – David Jeremiah’s and C. C. Carlson’s “Escape the Coming Night” (1990) massively plagiarized Lindsey’s 1973 book “There’s A New World Coming.” (For more info, type in “Thieves’ Marketing” on MSN or Google.)
1991 – Paul Lee Tan’s “A Pictorial Guide to Bible Prophecy” (1991) plagiarized large amounts of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
1991 – Militant Darby defender R. A. Huebner claimed in 1991 to have found new evidence that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827 – three years before Macdonald. Halfway through his book Huebner suddenly admitted that his evidence could refer to something completely un-rapturesque. Even though Thomas Ice admitted to me that he knew that Huebner had “blown” his so-called evidence, prevaricator Ice continues to tell the world that Huebner has “positive evidence” that Darby was pretrib in 1827! Ice also conceals the fact that Darby, in his own 1827 paper, was looking for only “the restitution of all things” and “the times of refreshing” (Acts 3:19,21) – which Scofield doesn’t see fulfilled until AFTER a future tribulation!
1992 – Tim LaHaye’s “No Fear of the Storm” (1992) plagiarized Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976).
1992 – This was when the Los Angeles Times revealed that “The Magog Factor” (1992) by Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler was a monstrous plagiarism of Prof. Edwin Yamauchi’s scholarly 1982 work “Foes from the Northern Frontier.” Four months after this exposure, Lindsey and Missler stated they had stopped publishing and promoting their book. But in 1996 Dr. Yamauchi learned that the dishonest duo had issued a 1995 book called “The Magog Invasion” which still had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (If Lindsey and Missler ever need hernia operations, I predict that the doctors will tell them not to lift anything for a long time!)
1994 – In 1996 it was revealed that Lindsey’s “Planet Earth – 2000 A.D. (1994) had an embarrassing amount of plagiarism of a Texe Marrs book titled “Mystery Mark of the New Age” (1988).
1995 – My book “The Rapture Plot” reveals the dishonesty in Darby’s reprinted works. It’s often hard to tell who wrote the footnotes and when. It’s easy to believe that the notes, and also unsigned phrases inside brackets within the text, were a devious attempt by someone (Darby? his editor?) to portray a Darby far more developed in pretrib thinking than he actually had been at the time. I found that some of the “additives” had been taken from Darby’s much later works, when he was more developed, and placed next to or inside his earliest works! One footnote by Darby’s editor, attached to Darby’s 1830 paper, actually stated that “it was not worth while either suppressing or changing” anything in this work! If his editor wasn’t open to such dishonesty, how can we explain such a statement?
Post-1995 – Thomas Ice’s article “Inventor of False Pre-Trib Rapture History” states that my book “The Rapture Plot” is “only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse….” And David Reagan in his article “The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture” repeats Ice’s falsehood by claiming that I have republished my first book “over the years under several different titles.”
Although my book repeats a bit of the Macdonald origin of pretrib (for new readers), all of my books are packed with new material not found in my other works. For some clarification, “The Incredible Cover-Up” has photos of pertinent places in Ireland, Scotland, and England not found in my later books plus several chapters dealing with theological arguments; “The Great Rapture Hoax” quotes scholars throughout the Church Age, covers Scofield’s hidden side, a section on Powerscourt, the 1980 election, the Jupiter Effect, Gundry’s change, and more theological arguments; “The Rapture Plot” reveals for the first time the Great Evangelical Revisionism/Robbery and includes appendices on miscopying, plagiarism, etc.; and “The Three R’s” shows hypocritical evangelicals employing occultic beliefs they say they have long opposed!
So Thomas Ice etc. are twisting truth when they claim I am only a revisionist. Do they really think that my publishers DON’T know what I’ve previously written?
Re arguments, Google “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts” and also obtain “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (AuthorHouse, 2006) by media personality Joe Ortiz.
1997 – For years Harvest House Publishers has owned and been republishing Lindsey’s book “There’s A New World Coming.” During the same time Lindsey has been peddling his reportedly “new” book “Apocalyse Code” (1997), much of which is word-for-word the same as the Harvest House book – and there’s no notice of “simultaneous publishing” in either book! Talk about pretrib greed!
1997 – This is the year I discovered that more than 50 pages of Dallas Seminary professor Merrill Unger’s book “Beyond the Crystal Ball” (Moody Press, 1973) constituted a colossal plagiarism of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970). After Lindsey’s book came out, Unger had complained that Lindsey’s book had plagiarized his classroom lecture notes. It was evident that Unger felt that he too should cash in on his own lectures! (The detailed account of this Dallas Seminary dishonesty is revealed in my 1998 book “The Three R’s.”)
1998 – Tim LaHaye’s “Understanding the Last Days” (1998) plagiarized Lindsey’s “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
1999 – More than 200 pages (out of 396 pages) in Lindsey’s 1999 book “Vanished Into Thin Air” are virtually carbon copies of pages in his 1983 book “The Rapture” – with no “updated” or “revised” notice included! Lindsey has done the same nervy thing with several of his books, something that has allowed him to live in million-dollar-plus homes and drive cars like Ferraris! (See my Google articles “Deceiving and Being Deceived” and “Thieves’ Marketing” for further evidence of this notably pretrib vice.)
2000 – A Jack Van Impe article “The Moment After” (2000) plagiarized Grant Jeffrey’s book “Final Warning” (1995).
2001 – Since 2001 my web article “Walvoord’s Posttrib ‘Varieties’ – Plus” has been exposing his devious muddying up of posttrib waters. In some of his books he invented four “distinct” and “contradictory” posttrib divisions, claiming that they are either “classic” or “semiclassic” or “futurist” or “dispensational” – distinctions that disappear when analyzed! His “futurist” group holds to a literal future tribulation and a literal millennium but doesn’t embrace “any day” imminency. But his “dispensational” group has the same non-imminency! Moreover, tribulational futurism is found in every group except the first one, and he somehow admitted that a literal millennium is in all four groups! On the other hand, it’s the pretribs who consistently disagree with each other over their chief points and subpoints – but somehow end up agreeing that there will be a pretrib rapture! (See my chapter “A House Divided” in my book “The Incredible Cover-Up.”)
2001 – Since my “Deceiving and Being Deceived” web item which exposed the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem” and “Morgan Edwards” as teachers of pretrib, there has been a piranha-like frenzy on the part of pretrib bodyguards and their duped groupies to “discover” almost anything before 1830 walking upright on two legs that seemed to have at least a remote hint of pretrib! (An exemplary poster boy for such pretrib practice is Grant Jeffrey. To get your money’s worth, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”)
FINALLY: Don’t take my word for any of the above. Read my 300-page book “The Rapture Plot” which has a jillion more documented details on the long-hidden but now-revealed history of the dishonest, 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised-until-the-real-bad-stuff-happens pretribulation rapture fad. If this book of mine doesn’t “move” you, I will personally refund what you paid for it!
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Dear Michael,
Really appreciate your thoughts and witty commentary. Fun to read. I have just one comment: I think the disaster has already happened. Mega-churches, youth ministries, “relevance”, absence of creedal faith, mega-sized staff for every program imaginable, hyper publishing with little substance, ignorance of Church history, etc. etc. This has been the state of things for, oh, the past thirty years, before I was even a Christian. That stuff IS the collapse. It’s demise IS a reformation.
I entered what seemed to me to be world of hyper confusion when I was born-again, twenty years ago. The ancient creeds and reformed theology clarified my mind and lead to peace.
Francis Schaeffer was a bit closer atestimating the end.
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Unfortunately too much of what you have said is true.
If you really want an example look no further than Canada and what has happened here over the last 50 years.
It is quite safe to say that Christianity has been and is actively being pushed out of the public square.
A lot of it has been because people have watched the culture wars and the rise of the religious right in USA with alarm, and so have tended to brand Canadian evangelicals as a Canadian branch of the republican party.
It has made it incredibly difficult to even have public dialogue.
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(1 Cor 2 KJV) “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. {2} For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. {3} And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. {4} And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: {5} That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. {6} Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: {7} But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: {8} Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. {9} But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. {10} But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. {11} For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. {12} Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. {13} Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. {14} But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. {15} But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. {16} For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
(1 Cor 3:1-2 KJV) “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. {2} I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.”
(1 Cor 1:26-31 KJV) “For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: {27} But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; {28} And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: {29} That no flesh should glory in his presence. {30} But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: {31} That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”
See 10-13 above…
Now have these Corinthians received the things Paul is talking about in this passage? No! Why they are carnal
(1 Cor 3:1 KJV) “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. {2} I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
What does carnal mean? It simply means flesh. To be carnal is a Christian living after the flesh. It isn’t a term for the unsaved…Paul speaks of them as being natural. SeeVs 14…That is what Paul is talking about in vss 11-12…Hold here
(Eph 2:1-3 KJV) “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: {2} Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: {3} Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
(Eph 3:7-9 KJV) “Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. {8} Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; {9} And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”
Draw Trinity
Law…sin…flesh are synonyms in your Bible…Webster…a word having the same or nearly the same meaning in the language.
You see our bodies are designed to operate under the law and our spirits are designed to operate under grace, but we are designed to will for ourselves. Our volition is free to do what we want to do. So, what we store up in our conscience, will not cause us to do what is right, but will influence (enable) us to do what is right.
Now we have two things competing for our will. We have the flesh which has our five senses… and what are they taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing.
These are in competition with our spirit which has the word of God. Which has the advantage when it comes to storing up norms and standards in our conscience. Which do you find the easier to do watch television or read your Bible?
Going to church and listening to a sermon or going to a ball game.
Eating spinach or pumpkin pie
You get the idea but understand it is what gets the most attention…gets the most storage whether it be carnal things or spiritual things.
Now back to 1 Cor 3.1 notice the word babes… what do babies eat milk…right not meat but milk…
(1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV) “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; {2} By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {3} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; {4} And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
How many here today believe that
Christ died, was buried, and rose again? I’m not looking for a show of hands, but just for you to reflect in your own minds…now do you believe that he died for your sins…then you are saved and do not have to face the wrath to come.
That is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 3.1-2. The baby food or milk was the gospel. It is so easy to believe even a baby can do it.
(Rom 4:24-25 KJV) “But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; {25} Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
(Acts 2:22-24 KJV) “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: {23} Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: {24} Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.”
(Rom 6:4 KJV) “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
(Rom 8:11 KJV) “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
(John 10:17-18 KJV) “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. {18} No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”
(John 2:18-19 KJV) “Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? {19} Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
It was the Trinity that raised Christ from the dead!
And it was his cross that separated you from your flesh.
(Col 2:10-12 KJV) “And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: {11} In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: {12} Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
You see if your going to put water in verse 12 then you will have to put a knife in verse 11!
I know what your thinking…what about water baptism…(1 Cor 1:17 KJV) “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” Peter could not say that.
(Phil 3:3 KJV) “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”
If it smells…taste…looks…feels…sounds good be careful especially when it comes to faith. Why?
(Rom 10:17 KJV) “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
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This is all very fascinating.
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Hi Michael,
You’re starting to become world famous!!
Here in the Netherlands we have 2 christian newspapers, who both have written articles about your article in the Christian Science Monitor. One newspaper even qualifies you as a church planter! Wow!
Here are the links (unfortunately there’s no translation):
http://www.refdag.nl/artikel/1397788/Evangelicale+beweging+staat+op+instorten.html
http://www.nd.nl/artikelen/2009/maart/13/ineenstorting-evangelicalisme-vs-voorspeld
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Andrew Sullivan is approaching the same “collapse” from a different place than you are, but there is resonance between your piece and his. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article5907453.ece
pvk
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I read your very insightful piece described here in CSM, it is a thoughtful, detached analysis of a social movement.
Interestingly, however, theres no mention of God’s will, or the Holy Spirit stepping in to pull it all back together and magically fix it. Evidently the church is left on its own to evolve with somewhat random socialogical and political winds.
What exactly is the point of all this pointy-hatted nonsense if theres no god to come in and miraculously save everything proving once and for all that us athiests are fools and the church really is a divine institution? Seems to me, even the evangelicals, at their heart of hearts, realize god is actually just a figament of their imagination and a powerful motivator for a big, pointless and hopefully soon to be outdated institution.
Thanks again for your piece.
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If you think this guy is talking tommyrot, just take a view of recent history in the UK, and think for a bit!!!!
Sobering.
But God is in charge and he will refine. We are already seeing this, a little bit.
The true church is now growing where it shows what it really believes (and why), and also cares. Gods love and ours.
Anyway we should aim for quality not quantity, and God will do the work.
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MODERATOR NOTE: The following comment violates the comment policy of this web site. The recommendation of Spong and Ehrman are unacceptable here at IM. I’m making an exception here at the repeated request of the poster and against my better judgment. Please- I am NOT going to allow any future posts that promote Spong and Ehrman or that make the claims of this comment.
Michael, you started quite a discussion on the Tax professional’s website forum “Quatloos.”
All belief in Jesus Christ, Evangelical (as I once was) or otherwise, is faith centered, and Pauline. Christ taught something else, Michael. If theologians and Christians in general were more familiar with Eastern traditions, they would come to recognize, as I did, that Jesus taught a form of mystic transcendentalism–yoga, to be precise. Before you laugh, read John 3:8 and Matthew 6:22 and then Google “Sant Mat” –That’s “Teachings of the Sants, [or Saints–PLURAL]” and it is akin to “prayer” in the original meaning of the term as Jesus himself used it when he asked those falling asleep around him in Gethsemane if no one “could watch AN HOUR with me.”(Matt 26:40) Jesus revealed his astral transfiguration “going up the Mountain” to The Three in another mystic example (Luke 9:28-36). Few people pray (or “watch”) for “an hour” but many meditate that long or longer. Dr. Robert H. Eisenman reveals in his amazingly thorough “James, the brother of Jesus” work (1997, Penguin) that the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that James taught it too (“all night vigils in caves”) and was himself a Master, or savior–as were Jesus’ other two brothers, Simeon bar Cleophas and Theudas (or Judas, “the twin”).
It’s hard to explain why this is such news to the world, as it has a 500 year continuous history in India going back to Nanak, Kabir,and even Namdev, 200 years before that. Dying a martyr for God is not unique to Jesus. John the Baptist and all brothers in Jesus’ family were killed by those who couldn’t abide such blinding light. There were others elsewhere. We in the West need to open up to other traditions and see that Mysticism is the Way worldwide, was in the time of Christ (the Nag Hammadi books, and Dead Sea Scrolls are pure Sant Mat), and will be for the foreseeable future. The Bible has been corrupted (read Eisenman and Dr. Bart Ehrman, or even Bishop John Shelby Spong). Even though the truth is there it is deeply buried under Pauline misinformation. Let Christianity fade to black so we can get on with the reality of God-realization: the teachings of LIVING Masters.
There are 45 volumes to be read and assimilated at RSSB.org. –In all humility and sincerity, A brother. God bless all. This is strictly informational on my own initiative. We DON’T proselytize. Any seekers interested in more information are welcome to my email address (ask Michael), or invited to investigated the website.
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J,
Keep on making us think, please. You’re not too opinionated, and you are quite polite in your interactions. Thanks.
The comments by Robert got me thinking, so I had to Google a bit, there is an interesting page on Wikipedia that has some info about Nazi Germany and religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany
I think Robert is probably a little too much into Catholic bashing to realize how widespread the support for the Nazi’s was in the Protestant churches. Of course wikipedia.org could be a part of the conspiracy. 🙂
It appears that the actual situation was very complicated, with multiple persons vying for power by using the German state to set up conglomerates of relious groups to help consolidate power.
The article did make the point that the economic state had a lot to do with the early acceptance of the Nazi Party. Ignorance may have played a part early, but as the years progressed, it seems that it just became too late to stand against it. (unless you wanted to die)
He (Robert) appears to be unaware that iMonk is not Catholic, and even though he disagrees, this post was written from a pretty middle of the road protestant view.
I will admit now to being a pentecostal (Assemblies of God), but I don’t think we were meant to shut off our brains, so I hang around the fringes here at internetmonk. (Don’t tell anyone, but I read Christopher Hitchens religiously, he’s another one that does make you think)
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J –
You ARE quite opinionated, aren’t you, dude? Let me throw a thought out as if I were as opinionated: “You don’t believe the entire universe came into being from virtually nothing do you? You know you don’t believe it. I demand that you admit it! How could gazillions of galaxies and stars developed from, say, an atom. Explain where that atom (or whatever) came from. Go on, I dare you! You must be, at least, fairly intelligent. I mean, you do work at a college of engineering.”
C’mon, man, chill-out a tad. Just because you blog the “loudest,” doesn’t mean everyone else’s opinion should have no value. Pesonally, I think you could use a hug! 🙂
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Wednesday, March 11, 2009
Return to Faith
I very much agree with iMonk’s recent article about the potential fall of Evangelical Christianity. It doesn’t take a genius to see it slipping into the cog of political and intellectual depravity. But Christ has a solution.
We must return to our first love: Salvation through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This message is being lost.
Oh, people say they believe, but they rely on works more heavily than on faith, so much so, that works are produced by the flesh, which are always self-righteous and hypocritical. Instead, it is through faith that godly works are produced through and in the Spirit of Christ.
We must return to our first love and do the first works, as the Revelation tells us to do. To begin, we must return to faith in Christ alone for salvation and let go of transforming the world or ourselves. Let Christ, through faith, transform us.
Look, the world, as unbelieving, is not under the law of Christ. So how can we try to convert the world to godly works without it first coming to faith. That Christians use the laws of God to try to make an unbelieving world conform to godly works is proof that we, ourselves, are deceived, believing that good works will save us. I believe that Christ showed us through his life that that would be our undoing, our death, as it was the vehicle through which he was persecuted and crucified.
Posted by Chris O’Nan at 8:31 AM
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N..>*…just as Germany and so many were ignorant of what Hitler was doing as they relocated and then ultimately murdered 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.*No. I will not allow this supposition. As the grandnephew of a man who had the misfortune to be marched into Sobibor and the serendipity to walk out again under his own power, I will not allow the blithe peddling of the idea that “so many were ignorantâ€, particularly within Germany. That notion has been comprehensively slain by historians.<
Hello J
Apparently I haven’t read the same historical books you have read.
I think you’re saying they didn’t want to know?
You’re probably right. Hitler was so aggressive that it is hard to believe when people said they didn’t realize what was really going on.
If they did know, I can’t understand why they stood by and tolerated such things. Was it their own fear or prejudice that stopped them from objecting to such horrendous acts against humanity?
It’s good to know your Grandfather was able to walk out of such horror, and lived to tell about it.
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“Your observation agrees with prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3”
2 Thessalonians 2:7 says this “mystery of iniquity doth already work”, it had already begin to work in Paul’s day, not long after this was written the falling away (apostasy) continued for over a 1000 years. It is what we now call the dark ages. In verse 8 it says it will continue until it is “consume(d)” by the Lord at his coming. This antichrist figure is already here and is exactly the “man of sin” who faithful evangelical preachers identified in the past.
“….then a figure such as this “Beast†(as scripture refers to)….”
The Bible teaches that a “Beast” is a kingdom. “These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. Daniel 7:17 This first Beast of Revelation 13 is a composite beast that has a whore (Babylon the great) riding on it’s back.
“…..greatly in America now because of the economic decline.”
The Bible says that things are going to continue pretty normal right up until the very end, “For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away” Matthew 24:38
Praise God that Jesus Christ “is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.” 1 Corinthians 1:31
Historically evangelicals had it right but they have failed to keep advancing in the light. Put your trust in God and His dear Son. Stop looking to man, politics (spiritual fornication James 4:4), organizations, and public opinion. None but the righteous are going through to glory, and that only if they are wearing Christ’s righteousness and their sins are covered by the blood of the Lamb.
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J —
I read Robert as running such a high Left Behind fever that he’s become delerious.
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*…just as Germany and so many were ignorant of what Hitler was doing as they relocated and then ultimately murdered 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.*
No. I will not allow this supposition. As the grandnephew of a man who had the misfortune to be marched into Sobibor and the serendipity to walk out again under his own power, I will not allow the blithe peddling of the idea that “so many were ignorant”, particularly within Germany. That notion has been comprehensively slain by historians.
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*In essence, the piece is stating the obvious of what will happen according to Bible prophecy. A one world government with a one world religion (ecumenicalism) that will unite the major faiths is just around the corner.*
You do not actually believe this. I know you think you do, but in fact, you do not. Working from the assumption that you are an adult human being of at least average intelligence, Robert (you can write sentences and navigate the Intarnets), I *know* you do not actually believe that the “major faiths” are in any way coalescing into one or that the governments of the world are either A.) in such harmonious accord that they are literally about to melt into each other or B.) overawed by any single individual or power such that they will be forcibly joined together in a world empire.
You don’t believe that, Robert. You know you don’t. I demand that you admit it.
*The sad saps on this forum are blissfully unaware…*
If it were true, I would be blissfully *aware* and pleased as punch–and so would you–that humanity had overcome it’s bloody, rivening differences. But since there are no signs whatsoever that this is happening, I remain UNblissfully UNaware of it.
*Rather, stand firm in the gospel knowing what is about to happen — persecution, appearance of Antichrist, Great Tribulation then Jesus Christ returns.*
Turning away from Robert specifically: How is premillenialism of this flavor different from the modernist (lowercase “m”) notion of “Progress”? The notion that we’re surely Going Somewhere and that The World Will Change Tomorrow seems scarcely any less corrosive in it’s effects if it’s religiously based rather than secularly so. Either one causes you to neglect the present–and the people, duties, and yes, pleasures around you in the present–in favor of eternal anticipation.
Neither Progress nor Premillenialism seem much like genuine or humble “hope”. Both are rather wrapped up in a triumphalism that absolutely *begs* to be disappointed by the fact that the history of the future is overwhelmingly likely to be the same as the history of the past: just regular ol’ One Thing After Another.
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Dear Michael Spencer…
Thank for your commentary about what you perceive as the coming Evangelical Collaspe.
I think everyone who has any spiritual discernment can see what you’ve said already beginning to happen.
Your observation agrees with prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
False prophets have abounded and are paving the way for the ultimate ‘son of perdition’ figure in whom the entire world will follow after.
The world may not be aware of what will happen to Christians under this new Anti-Christ leadership, just as Germany and so many were ignorant of what Hitler was doing as they relocated and then ultimately murdered 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.
However before this Anti-Christ figure takes control and sways the entire world with his great wisdom, the Bible prophesies of this Apostasy that you are speaking of. If there was no great Apostasy, then a figure such as this “Beast” (as scripture refers to) could never get such a foot hold, but you gave good reasons WHY these things will eventually take place.
Many American Christians consider it their birth right to be healthy and wealthy. We have built our lives on mass consumption and prosperity, which will tapered off greatly in America now because of the economic decline.
The Mega Church puts out messages such as “Love Your Life.” Which is direct opposition to what Jesus told us.
Christians in America have made the mistake of becoming drawn into a political vortex. Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck and Hannity can save no one. They are not the answer…Yet millions listen to them as if he were gods themselves.
Many Christians have lost the ability to be humble.
Those who claim Christ as their Savior don’t need anyone to tell them how to think, Christians need to learn to stay alert, humble and listen to what the Lord is telling them (meditate on the Word) and then to act in obediance to what the Spirit is saying.
Thank you so much. I appreciated reading your intelligent essay.
Peace & Agape!
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Evangelicalism may die because as a religious movement they can’t decide which Bible to use. They are wishy washy on living a seperated life. As society falls into imorality, most evangelicals are only a few steps behind and claiming they have liberty. Try Fundamental Independent Baptist. We desire to be faithful until the Lord returns. We see 600 a year baptised and 1500 a year saved, and thats in the Church. We see many more in the field. We may see less in the years to come but we are training others to do the same.
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Most readers consider themselves Christians but look to faith as the most important aspect of their life on this life? Faith is subjective. The Bible is not. Did you know that there were good Catholic Nazis serving in Germany in World War 2 that went to Christmas and did the rituals of the church believing they had faith? Now, their faith might have justified the tortured and inhumane treatment of others? Yet, their faith is just as real to them, and they believed their deeds were good! So, you cannot rely on faith as a basis of moral conduct because one can justify every evil act in the name of faith!
The only moral standard is the Bible. We either accept all its teachings and the final authority or we reject all of it, and refuse to become Christians. Additional writings of the Jews’ were condemned by Jesus, likewise, additional writings of Catholic teachers are also to be condemned. There is but one final authority in our lives and we must live by it, and judge the church on whether it is teaching Biblical doctrine, not on good works or faith. Isn’t it about time, you repented of your liberalism and came back to the divine authority of scripture, people were tortured to bring you these scriptures! May it not be in vain, the early Christians would turn in their graves to see our liberalism!
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I heard you today on Chris Fabry & thought you might be able to use this or at least enjoy it.
“My Kingdom is not of this Worldâ€
I have been thinking quite a bit, in bits and pieces mostly, about war, nationalism, & patriotism in relation to Christianity. How I love John the man! He tells us things about Jesus that no one else reveals. Here’s the scene. Jesus and Pilate are together privately. Jesus has been interrogated by the Hebrew leaders, or perhaps he was the interrogator. He has been slapped around, probably beaten by them, but now he & Pilate are together, one on one. Pilate asks him, “What have you done?” As is Jesus custom, he answers the question with words which do not seem to relate at all to the question. “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” John 18:36. “My kingdom is not of this world”. My goodness, those seven words speak volumes to Christians then and now, and Jesus’ follow-up statement leaves no room for speculation by Pilate or anyone who hears him speak the words. Shortly afterward, Pilate tells the accusers he can find no fault in the man. His crucifixion follows.
I guess my first, and maybe only, reaction is that it’s always tempting and very dangerous for a Christian to place nationalism or patriotism on an equal level with or in front of living as a Christian, being an heir and a son with citizenship in God’s kingdom. This attitude seems very central to the evangelical church where I live, perhaps in all of the USA. It may even be a global phenomenon. Peter writes, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake…For so is the will of God, that with well-doing you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: as free, and not using liberty as a cloak for maliciousness, but as the servants of God.†1 Peter 2:13-16. I must say, as an interlude, that I believe each Christian must make decisions with God’s wise counsel regarding joining the armed forces, fighting in war, even acting in self-defense or for the protection of another life. I believe these decisions can be well-thought out, or they may be spontaneous as an event arises. It’s not for me to judge; I don’t claim to know what I would do in a sudden, life changing encounter. Like Paul says, “Hey, I don’t even judge myself” , 1 Corinthians 4:3. I only hope I will do the right thing for the right reasons and count on my God to apply his judgment and mercy. But, or however, “what would Jesus do?” is a haunting question, though possibly trivialized and certainly profitized by the marketing industry. Jesus was crucified. It was his mission, but he was also set up by his own countrymen. One group was jealous of his authority and charisma (legalistic nationalists); another was dissatisfied with his plan of action (zealous patriots). Both groups may have believed they had the country’s best interest in mind. Also, isn’t it just like our heavenly Father to use one of Jesus’ most vocal and active opponents to utter one of the most significant prophecies in scripture? What about the high priest, the chief of the legalistic nationalists, the man with the plan, Caiaphas? “It is expedient that one should die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” John 11:50. Poor Caiaphas did not realize that these words were spoken, not only for the nation, but for all the world.
Jesus came. He gave to us healing, reconciliation, and deliverance. Even on the night he was betrayed, when Judas and the militia came, he healed the wound caused by Peter’s sword. At the same time he also exposed the Jewish elite for the cowards they were, but he never physically struck back although he mentioned that he could gather more than 12 legions of angels for support. Matthew 26:53. What did he gain in the end? “Well done my good and faithful servant.†Jesus was weighed on the scales of his Father and found NOT to be wanting. What will God say to me on that day of reckoning? Sometimes, I shudder at the thought.
Where is “peace†in all this? It is most certainly an outward manifestation of an inward condition. A fruit of the spirit is peace. Fruit ripens when the branch is being fed by the living root, drawing nourishment from the light and water as it is cultivated and pruned by the gardener. Sometimes weeds encroach on the garden. And sometimes, the branch is sick with sin; it refuses the sustenance offered by the Gardener to bear fruit. See John 15:4 & 5. Jesus gives peace that is totally contrary to the world. “In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer (‘cheer’, mind you!); I have overcome the world.†John 16:33. I don’t know how long it may have taken, but Paul got it. “His sole purpose in life was to please his Commander in Chief, no matter what. Everything else was dung to him. If he was living in today’s world, he might be tempted to say, ‘Christ is everything. All the other stuff is bullshit.’ He even went so far as to say that he rejoiced in the suffering and affliction he endured as a foot soldier in Christ’s army.†Philippians 3:8; 2 Timothy 2:3 & 4.
Approaching peace from another direction, Jesus said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword.†Matthew 10:34. The sword cuts through. It separates one thing from another. It induces pain. It exposes what’s inside. God’s sword strikes skillfully – swish, slash, and thrust! Quick and powerful, it works to separate us from the world, causing old friends, family, religions, church groups, and entire nations to react violently toward the body of Christ. The sword also digs into our hearts exposing anything within us which would deny the presence of God in our beings. We live in turmoil and pain until we drop our shield and then allow mending and healing from the surgery. For my part, this work of the sword seems to be ongoing. Praise God, his motive is always for his peace and joy to be what’s left after his most recent incision.
People often talk about world peace. Solutions are proposed. It all looks good on paper, but people and nations have, quite frankly, both superior and ulterior motives. From my perspective the only avenue to world peace is a one-world government. The only avenue to life is Jesus Christ. A life of peace will only exist with Christ as the ruling monarch. Let it be. The offer is always before us for now and forever, both individually and as a thriving community, the family of God. He is our king. Any and every other road leads to more confusion, anarchy, dictatorships, murder, envy, strife, vain-glory, mobs, riots, bombs, hatred, fear; it never ends and only gets worse. And the nations rage on and on and on …..
As peace loving people of the cross and of a nation, we seek peace. Home and citizenship are very dear to people. The question of citizenship and origin lies at the heart of the Christian message. Our decisions based on citizenship communicate both who we are and where our priorities lie. We reside in a world after the fall. We partake of the responsibilities and privileges of the nation in which we dwell. We are involved with others in neighborhoods, towns, the nation, the world, and the church. We are connected to one another. “Allelonâ€, a Greek word, was used by Jesus. It is pronounced kind of like ‘all alone’, but its meaning is just the opposite. It means “one anotherâ€. “A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.†John 13:34 & 35. Jesus lets us know that we are not isolated beings. We are relational and, equally important, we are influential. This sphere of influence which emanates from us is based on our citizenship. We are under the authority of a leader and we exist as part of a kingdom. Tension comes into play when our allegiance is divided, and it can become divided so easily. It is one of Satan’s primary tools to disarm the saints; to divide, and then to conquer. Like Adam, after God asked “have you eaten of the forbidden tree?â€, replied “She gave it to me.†Self-preservation is a likely entry point for the enemy into our lives. Satan has been very successful through the ages using this tactic with nations, tribes, families, and husbands and wives. His only reason for success is because we are so easily deceived by the tempter and so willing to compromise. We love to barter and bargain, to try to have it both our way and God’s way.
Jesus clearly proclaims, “My kingdom is not of this world.†He fulfilled the old while ushering in the new. In Adam all die. In Messiah we are made alive. Adam was of the earth. Jesus is spirit from heaven. Although our residence at this time is on earth, our citizenship is with God. He writes his law in our hearts. The saints of old sought a fatherland. It is our privilege to possess it now. Paul writes to the Philippians, “For our conversation is in Heaven; from whence we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;†Philippians 3:20. To converse is to talk and to listen. “Conversation†is the word translated from the Greek word “politeumaâ€. In English it would be “polityâ€, which resembles politics and means government, community, and citizenship. We interact on this earth in a heavenly realm while waiting with full anticipation to receive the fullness of our Savior who shall at some future time change our earthly bodies and the entire world into completely new creations. We are looking for this to happen while we temporarily reside here. We can live in one place while enjoying citizenship in another. As strangers and aliens, we are not illegal immigrants, though perhaps unwanted by some, yet certainly under the cover of the KHSD, Kingdom Homeland Security Department. Our Bill of Rights includes “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of God.†God’s pursuit of us never changes. Our pursuit of God often gets tangled up with the pursuit of happiness. Isn’t it odd? If we are busy pursuing happiness, then happiness must surely be eluding us, or probably deluding us. It seems to be just beyond our current dream. However, Jesus says, “I come that you may have an abundant life of vitality and that your joy would be full and complete.â€
John 10:10.
One may say with pride, “I am a citizen of the U.S.A.†Another will reply, “I am from here, or I am from there.†The name of the place isn’t important. We are citizens of a nation by birth. That’s just how it is. We did not choose our parents or the location of our birth on this globe. We can thank God for all that! The really important issue is whether or not we have been born from above by the labor of God’s love. Actually, only two nations exist, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Anti-God. The kingdom of Anti-God is sometimes described as the kingdom of this world. It is made up of nations, groups, and individuals with agendas for power and control. Sadly, the other kingdom is often similar in appearance though not by design. We too often mingle the kingdoms as we muddle through life. As Christians, this is a problem, for we do reside in the two kingdoms. We get mixed up. We know good and we know evil on theological and experiential levels. We can make choices based on our place in either kingdom or even both. We may separate our existence into compartments; this one is Christian, this one is country, one for God and one for me. The list becomes endless. We discern what is right and what is wrong but our judgment can also be influenced by what is of God and what is not. We get so accustomed to the dark that we don’t realize we always need to keep our Songlasses on.
What is the purpose of all this? The purpose is for us to admit that we need Songlasses, to never quit wearing them, and to submit always to God. These glasses give us vision in three directions, up, in, and out; three directions, yet with one vision, similar to a three stranded rope not easily broken. Where we were once blind, now we see God, maybe not with our physical eyes but with spirit eyes. We begin to view life from God’s perspective. We get glimpses of the majesty of God in his son, our Lord, and through the beauty and wonder of creation. We also start noticing ourselves in a new light, causing us to want to know our Father even better. We find out that there’s a way to get rid of the garbage of our past and present. Like a puss-filled infection, all of the crud of our lives becomes exposed, rising gradually and forcibly to the surface, and we desire God to remove it. Apparently, it’s a life-long process. Finally, we notice others in a new way, with mercy, compassion, concern, empathy, and sympathy. We start to comprehend the value of the treasure given to us by the Lord of life. It’s a treasure beyond all treasures, and priceless, so there’s plenty for everyone. We begin to understand that all of the old stuff we considered so dear is really worthless in comparison. Actually, there is no comparison. We want to share the precious gift with others. We anticipate a great migration of people from one kingdom to the other, and we know that we are called to be travel agents, the welcome wagon, neighbors, and friends.
That’s it. God’s way is simple. It is we who complicate it. All people are God’s people, and he is “not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance.†2 Peter 3:9. Today, that’s about 6,000,000,000 people, a bunch of folks. Our job is to deliver the bread, the manna of life. Some of it will be gathered and eaten. Some will be ignored and left to decay. Some folks won’t want the bread truck in their neighborhood and will do whatever is within their power to destroy the bread and anyone serving on the bread crew. They will not understand that the bread has a life of its own; it cannot be destroyed; only multiplied. Our job is to deliver the bread because we have been delivered and because Jesus told us, “Go. Build my kingdom. Here’s the tools. Use ‘em. Don’t cull anyone. I’m with you always.†Matthew 28:19 & 20. God takes care of the rest. It’s time to read Psalm 2.
Lonnie Starks
1-31-07 to 2-8-07
© 2007 Lonnie Starks
All scripture quotes are from the KJV, unless noted as ‘my interpretation’.
Note: Copying & pasting did not capture my footnotes.
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An interesting piece of writing, but it is written from a Catholic perspective enjoying the benefits of the demise of Evangelical Christianity.
In essence, the piece is stating the obvious of what will happen according to Bible prophecy. A one world government with a one world religion (ecumenicalism) that will unite the major faiths is just around the corner.
The sad saps on this forum are blissfully unaware, because they do not study their Bible, that this is the appearance of the Antichrst (2 Thess 2) that will come before Jesus returns. Party now, and join it, if you must, but it will cost you eternity.
Rather, stand firm in the gospel knowing what is about to happen — persecution, appearance of Antichrist, Great Tribulation then Jesus Christ returns.
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Ha, ha. We now have proof that some readers not only do not read what you wrote or what previous commenters above have written, but they don’t even read what they themselves write! (Will B, in particular, but over half of the commenters above also fit this pattern.)
Ironically, a “self-styled prophet”, using this thread as his Hyde Park, does some “stone throwing” and name-calling, but doesn’t see the only authors fitting his pattern (in this thread) are his anti-Evangelical friends–and himself.
But I’m praying that he will have at least one “rapturist” neighbor who follows what Evangelical churches actually teach about loving your neighbors.
And on another note: Gene, you’re an example of what I elsewhere have noted about the health of the Evangelical churches today. They are still full of hard-working, faithful Bible teachers. But Michael does have a point about the “public image” and trends. And, as he elsewhere clarified, he was talking about a portion of high-viz Evangelical churches and activists and not Christianity in general.
Thanks for your service, Gene. (And Michael, as before…)
Phil
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The little that I have had a chance to read and hear of your blog on Chris Fabry struck a chord with me. I also see the colapse of evangelical Christianity as we know it. Although, I believe that with persecution, the real church will grow, as you see in China and other countries where real Christianity is persecuted. I think the gospel actually grows in power and strength with persecution…and I too, see it coming…although I think it will be in less than 10 years.
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Greetings,
As an adult Sunday School teacher (and soon to be published author), I read the “eye-catching” article, (The Coming Evangelical Collapse by Michael Spencer), with interest. While each is entitled to their viewpoint, I do NOT see a collapse of Christianity in the USA in the near future.
My insight for preparation of adult lessons comes from the Holy Spirit; and NOT from some “cleverly invented ideas”. AND, it is my obedience to “the Word” that allows me to produce some interesting and (I might say) accurate understand of the Scriptures.
I do not pretend to be “a fore teller of the future”; but, based on my understanding of Jesus and Holy Scriptures, HIS CHURCH will be around until the Second Coming of Christ!!! An example of “this understanding” is the following remarks from an up coming lesson:
A comment about this phrase from Ephesians 1:22-23 —
“God appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body.â€
In this context, “the church†is NOT the facilities we have here at 1320 Main St., nor is it the intuitional organizations like the Catholics, Methodist, or Baptist. Here “the church†means “the community of believersâ€; or “you and meâ€. Since His ascension recorded in Acts 1:1-11,Jesus does NOT have a physical body on earth. (He will again at his Second Coming!!!)
BUT, when we act on his behalf, we become his body for a few moments or time period in which that act transpires. He uses our imperfect bodies to do His work on earth. We become his hands, his feet, his heart, his mind to do the work of the Kingdom!
He entrusted to US to carry His message to all nations. This is God’s plan. There is NO “plan Bâ€. What a wonderful assignment!!
SORRY, but no doomsday here!!!
Sincerely,
Gene Dirr, Author
Always Growing in the Faith
Houston, TX
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Michael
Good piece!
Too bad some are not really reading what you wrote instead are inflecting their own bent on your piece…. much like way too many people & churches do to the Bible…. “it will say what I want it to say”! Sorry, folks…. it’s not a piece of art work!
God bless! keep up the good work and I will be back now that I discovered you.
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Headless Unicorn Guy… Are you being sarcastic when you state the following or do you really fully mean it? — Lance in TX
Sarcastic. Romney was probably the best candidate that matched their “Family Values” vote, yet they rejected him almost entirely because he was Mormon and ended up with a President Obama who they can’t stand, period. (Be careful what you wish for…)
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Soap Box Bombs; and from an Evangelical no less! That metaphor was coined for zealots in Hyde Park, most of whom are self-styled prophets – where I’ve watched your fellow rapturists lovingly condemn their fellow creatures for being human – how inhumane. I’d suggest another metahpor for American Evangelicals – it has to do with thowing stones and glass houses. Bombs away.
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I think Michael is on to something here identifying this trend. We are coming to a point in society where there is no middle-ground. Individuals must take a hard stand about their own beliefs.
I believe the problem stems from two main issues in the Evangelical community:
1. Organization – a greater level of organizing the masses for common causes is needed. Taking stands on moral and political issues. Providing a structure to develop the programs for youth and adults to foster personal development and providing leadership opportunities.
2. Higher commitment level from members. No longer can we be spectators, or watching from the sidelines. This is where mega-churches fail; they don’t require much sacrifice from the attendees. Indifiduals go and listen, are inspired and donate money, but it’s the volunteerism that’s needed. We need to spend the time to be a youth pastor, sunday school teacher, sports coach, etc. There must be adult sponsorships for the youth to have meaningful programs which help them develop and grow into theri their full potential as leaders of our community and nation. Commitment level is an expression of one’s faith. As one’s faith in Christ increases, one’s desire and ability to help others is expanded.
“A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for, from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life.”
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Michael,
Amazing. You write a clear paper on a limited subject and you get massive soap-box-bombs incoming from everyone who ever had an opinion about “those Christians”.
But your FIRST point was that Evangelical participation in the culture wars (about homosexuality, abortion, creationism, etc.) would TRIGGER or PROVOKE opposition.
But this thread has proved that the opposition doesn’t even need to read or comprehend what you wrote. Some atheists have here praised you for giving the appearance that you are on their side. I think they think you actually wear a monk’s garb.
Back to your article:
I “feel” like the “megas” growth is a bad sign; but I’ve visited (travelling) a large number of them and they all have presented a clear gospel and emphasized Jesus saving work and our need for new life in Christ. And they all had Baptist-like adult classes doing exegetical studies of the Word.
Still, I “feel” uneasy about that style of Christianity.
Finally,
How can Evangelicals or anybody reach the type of people venting in this thread? I suggest each of us take extra time to connect with our neighbors so that they, at least, know one believer who isn’t a kook.
Keep up the good work.
Phil
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*Do they not realize that if the rapture takes place very soon…they will leave all their building projects…for the use of the anti-christ? Sure makes you think.*
All evidence to the contrary.
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A note to Bible Thumping Revelation quoters….Do you ever feel a little twinge of guilt condemning others so blithely? Probably not, since your kind are so eager to condemn, its really just a casual reaction of temperament. Unstable dispositions rule the unruly. Yes, let’s find something ominous from the scary part of scripture to pull out and slap in front of those who don’t think like us to scare them into submission. Actually, let’s extend that intimidation to those who do agree, since this kind of faux-prophesy is usually dealt out to other Christians who just happen to disagree with our feeble framework. It’s a form of mental torture, murdering any spiritualism that could ever sprout from your particular style of orthodoxy. Here’s a suggestion – I think Evangelicals should travel back in time to that wonderful late Bronze Age, or to the Roman villages of Asia Minor where all this doom you profess so eagerly was commonplace 80 – 100 generations ago. Try living like they did, a soft solipsistic American in the hardscrabble hot sun of ignorance and daily struggle for food and protection. I think your kind would benefit from a month there, and it won’t be like JesusLand in Florida…Religion has always stamped man’s hand on the eternal – and your fingerprints are all over it. John 11:35
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dvopilgrim,
You state the following:
Will this evangelical collapse result in a second reformation? While Spencer does not think so, I believe that small Reformed churches which are faithful to the five solas of the 16th century Protestant Reformation will gain adherents. Where will the disenchanted and disenfranchised go? They have three choices: (1) apostasize in unbelief; (2) go back to Rome; or (3) go back to Reformed Geneva and Heidelberg. I believe that a small remnant will choose the last option.
I think there is a 4th option that you did not list: go to a Restoration Church (like the LDS Church).
Why do I think this is an option is because this is what I did and what MANY people I know have done. The converts to our Church are coming from Evangelical Churches, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Episcopal, and other Christian Churches. They are finding what they feel is missing from their Churches. They feel the Holy Spirit in our Church. They see the love for Christ in our Church.
Just wanted to point out another option for those that feel disenchanted and disenfranchised with their current Church.
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“If, at all, Reformation comes to the Charismatic-Pentecostal movement and its accompanying worship practices, it will cease to be Charismatic-Pentecostal anymore. This is because the Protestant Reformation is the antithesis of this movement.”
You are absolutely correct. “Grievous wolves…” have entered the flock, “And no marvel: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14
All this has strengthened the infidel in their infidelity (notice the rise of atheism), and is leading many Christians back to the attractive “forms and ceremonies” of Babylon’s works based salvation system (another gospel).
But sadly the deception is only to increase. The false movement of “the spirit” is to take the world captive and unite the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon. Only those who have fortified the mind with the Word of God will be able to withstand these deceptions. “For if possible it will deceive the very elect.”
“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Revelation 16
“And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.” Revelation 13
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iMonk,
Excellent “observations”. I’m curious to how you came to your conclusions. As an SDA Christian we have had Ellen G. White’s writings as a suplemental source of guidance to the Bible for over a hundred years. She clearly predicted(most fervently in her landmark book -The Great Controversy) the exact same condition of the mainstream USA culture against Christianity that you describe.
The wave of secularism and even occultism will continue to expand and persecution in many forms towards the Christian church will grow.
All in the name of the Common Good. It will be subtle and hard to argue against. I mean, who wants to be against seemingly “good things”?
Your take on sincere, steadfast Christians looking to Catholicism in troubling times is right out of E.G. Whites writings also, where she says that American Protestant denominations will “reach across the sea” to the Catholic church. Now, don’t think I’m Catholic bashing…I’m not.
It makes perfect sense as the CC is still an entity that stands for what it believes and vocalizes it. That historical power will seem a refuge to Christians in the USA under assault.
The ecumenical movement has already begun in many ways. It will continue to grow.
The merits or pitfalls of THAT union with Catholicism is for another discussion.
Keep up the good work!
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My dear brother,
Part of what I see, as leading to the decline of Evangelicalism, is apathy. I head up an international crusade ministry. We are currently working with 8 different nations to hold large city-wide gospel crusades in countries where 50-99% of the population lists itself as other than Christian. When I present the need within most Baptist churches in the U.S. to help us go and hold crusades, I get the standard line of excuses.
Usually, it’s that they are in a building program (to bless the 100 or so that show up). Or their budget is down because of the economy (isn’t God supposed to be in charge of their personal finances?) or even worse the pretended interest which leads to no follow thru.
If Billy Graham were starting out with the culture of today’s churches, I seriously doubt he would have been able to reach the millions he has reached with the Gospel. May God have mercy on His church. Do they not realize that if the rapture takes place very soon, like they are preaching that it will, they will leave all their building projects, new carpet, stained glass windows, and other items for the use of the anti-christ? Sure makes you think.
Keep up the good work brother. You tell it the way it is!
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*Michael please gets in touch with “J†and offer him the occasional guest post as a “friendly atheist†the man is a genius!*
Now accepting volunteers for the post of Guy Who Stands on The Back of My Chariot Whispering in My Ear “You Are Only a Man”.
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Here are the thoughts I wrote in my blog:
On the heels of a flurry of three previous posts I wrote about the mindlessness of evangelicalism and its worship practices, you might think of me as too pessimistic. Well, my friend Scott sent me a link to another article with even more ominous thoughts.
The Internet Monk, Michael Spencer, has an article that would surely put evangelicals into defensive denial. In “The Coming Evangelical Collapse†published by csmonitor.com, Spencer discusses reasons and results of this demise and wonders, “Is all of this a bad thing?â€
His bold predictions only echo what many of us in historic Reformed churches have been saying: the gospel-less anti-doctrinalism, emotionalism and moralism of evangelical churches which started with the 1960s hippie revolution will end up as another footnote in the history of the modern church. Only three decades after Newsweek published its cover story in 1976, “The Year of the Evangelical,†noting the spiritual and numerical growth of evangelical churches, “we are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity.â€
Among other things, Spencer lists the causes of this demise: its identification with political conservatism; “fail[ure] to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaughtâ€; the secularization of Christian education; and the “great inability to pass on to our children a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible and the importance of the faith.†The Internet Monk sees the failure of “billions of dollars we’ve spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media†that has produced generations of
“young people [who] have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.”
Billions of dollars invested in producing a generation that could play Internet games for days on end, but finds a 30-minute sermon too boring and unable to spare a few minutes to read and study the Bible. What “faith†would this generation pass on to the next but a next-to-nothing knowledge, narcissistic worship and Biblically-disconnected practice?
While evangelical apologists are in denial, keen observers of political, social and religious trends will not fail to see this demise in study after study done by the Barna Group, Pew Forum and other researchers.
The Internet Monk sees the remnants of the evangelical movement scattered all over the religious spectrum. Many will seek refuge among the Catholic and Orthodox churches (this phenomenon has been ongoing in the last few decades). Most who stick will be in the remains of “pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches.â€
Will this evangelical collapse result in a second reformation? While Spencer does not think so, I believe that small Reformed churches which are faithful to the five solas of the 16th century Protestant Reformation will gain adherents. Where will the disenchanted and disenfranchised go? They have three choices: (1) apostasize in unbelief; (2) go back to Rome; or (3) go back to Reformed Geneva and Heidelberg. I believe that a small remnant will choose the last option.
While I concur with Spencer’s general ideas on the reasons for and possible results of the death of evangelicalism, I disagree that “Charismatic-Pentecostal-influenced worship around the world can be a major positive for the evangelical movement if reformation can reach those churches and if it is joined with the calling, training, and mentoring of leaders.†It is precisely this movement that has a huge hand in the evangelical demise, with its emphasis on anti-doctrinalism, emotionalism, and entertainment gimmicks that has resulted in generations of “young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it.†It is this movement that has spawned all kinds of abuses by the Word-Faith movement and prosperity gospel, and influenced evangelical churches to adopt entertainment gimmicks into their delirious, frenzied worship services. From where did the “praise and worship†band and contemporary “Christian†music come, but from Vineyard, Hosanna, Integrity and Hillsong – all Pentecostal companies?
Spencer believes that “if American churches come under more of the influence of the movement of the Holy Spirit in Africa and Asia, this will be a good thing.†No so. The demise of American evangelism will be repeated in Asia, Africa and Latin America because everything that happens in American/Western evangelicalism are exported all over the world. As I look around evangelicalism in the Philippines, I see exactly the same anti-doctrinalism, emotionalism and moralistic psychotherapy in the churches.
If, at all, Reformation comes to the Charismatic-Pentecostal movement and its accompanying worship practices, it will cease to be Charismatic-Pentecostal anymore. This is because the Protestant Reformation is the antithesis of this movement.
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“And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.” Revelation 13:3
It says ALL the world wondered after the beast. Is it any surprise that this would include the majority of professing Christians going back into Babylon? Or maybe the question should be asked, “Did Evangelicals come all the way out of Babylon?”
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While I agree with trend analysis in your Coming Evangelical Collapse posts, I must be remembered that trends can bend.
Acts 9:35 reports that “all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him (Aeneas whom Peter had healed), and turned to the Lord”. Whole towns turned to the Lord quickly.
John MacArthur’s study notes report that the Holy Spirit is mentioned more than 50 times in the Book of Acts. Luke’s second book might be called the Acts of the Holy Spirit rather than the Acts of the Apostles. Religious awakenings, spiritual revivals, or whatever you like to call them can happen.
Whole towns can turn to the LORD quickly again. In Acts, there’s no small amount of suffering endured by the likes of Peter, Stephen, James, and Paul. Acts of courage and suffering and fervent prayer would be likely to accompany any moves toward revival but it can happen. The Bible reports extra-ordinary miracles from Genesis to Revelation. The extra-ordinary can and will happen again. Keep hope (and courage and devotion and prayer) alive.
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It has saddened me for years what seems like the lack of interest in helping society of the evangelical churches. I have felt it first hand as I developed a strategic plan and simple materials to help families and marriages across America. I could see how the churches could really help children who are so hurt by family dysfunction and disintegration. My wife and I did not have much money to market, but we did present at a few conferences reaching churches and spent all of our available retirement money to try to help the church realize that it could love families and kids and show the love of Christ in the way He did. (Jesus went out among the people doing good.) We had a way to do that in our society where kids face so much trauma as a result of families falling apart. After not finding one church to try what we were suggesting even though they agreed with the approach, we spent our last $1,000 dollars on a half-page add in Outreach Magazine. It was designed by the group the magazine uses. We hoped that the 30,000 churches most interested in outreach would yield a couple of interested churches. In fact, only one church asked about what we were suggesting and that church only wanted the materials for their own church families. My heart was broken at the lack of concern for people outside of the church. Now we are trying to interest cities in our approach, having seen the disinterest of the church. I am very sad and fear that your predictions are going to happen. (I hope I did this right, as this is the very first blog comment I have ever submitted.) Dick Wulf, MSW, LCSW, Colorado Springs, Colorado.
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Tedster,
If I were merely flippant I would retort: “The violence in N. Ireland makes me never want to be Protestant or Catholic,” but this argument is stale and you probably deserve a lot more than the virtual middle finger such a message would convey.
To explain it simply, I am as tired of the argument “people of religion x are bad, so therefore their religion is bad” as I am of the prevalent opposite argument “so-and-so of religion y is a nice person, their religion must be good.” To expound this at length, I think we in America have the tendency to overvalue “niceness” in our evaluation of the authenticity of a religion. Whether a person acts “nice” or not is largely a matter of their upbringing, whether it is Christian, atheists, or whatever. Also, “niceness” is rather subjective, in another time and place a slave-owner and a Nazi could be considered “nice” people (to use two extreme examples). While our goal is always to live up to the example of the first Christians in Acts whom the pagans observed “look how they love one another!” whether a person is nice or not they are still a person whom Christ died for, and they need to “work out their salvation” just the same. A good Christian, a person who is striving to follow Christ, could still be a really mean person. One hopes that as such a person grows in Christ they will become nice, but some people never do, and I would hesitate to fault their religion for that.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend anything that happened in Bosnia (though I think many of the political actions NATO took there were/are silly). But long-standing violence on all sides, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, and Atheist will create violent people. Violent people are not very nice, no, but I can not fault them for not overcoming the violence in their own soul because I do not know if, were I them, I would be able to keep violence from overtaking my soul either.
Honestly, most of Serbs I’ve met who are from Serbia scare me, I’m careful not to do anything which may make them angry at me! But God will be their judge, not me. All I can do is pray for their soul and take comfort in the fact that God’s forgiveness is boundless.
Authentic Christianity is not bound up with how good people are at carrying it out, thank God! So, to me, judging the various “denominations” based on broad external aspects is faulty. I base my judgments upon whether or not a “denomination” can effectively bring people into a healthy repentance of their sins and communion with Christ, while realizing that not everyone in a “denomination” will accomplish this equally well. Given this viewpoint, I think there are much larger issues in some of the denominations much closer to home (such as ones which deny that sin is an affront to God’s holiness) than what people have done in Bosnia, or N. Ireland for that matter.
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Sarah:
“Living overseas also showed me how much of the Evangelicalism I grew up on is dependent upon American culture for its relevance. Once removed from the American context, Evangelicalism lost its meaning for me.”
There is a lot to think about in that paragraph.
Thank you.
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A note to Kelly. The modern Evangelical movement has become like it’s earlier fundamentalist predecessors – a scandal. But that’s no surprise; the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. You need to consider that only a few years before you got involved in the 1970s, elements of the youth in the fundamentalist movement adopted the Marxist, neo-pagan inspired free community ideals of the 1960s – the Jesus Movement. This youth movement was mainly in response to the dismay the followers had at redneck southern Baptists who water cannoned blacks in the south for trying to vote and sit at lunch counters. In the 1970s the idealism and tolerance of its adherents grew, while America as a whole let its hair grow – then came Reagan and the Republican Youth of 1980s. Over a spent generation this utopian endeavor morphed into various mainline traditions, but lost its soul.
The sad irony is their rebellion was defeated and their ideals stolen by the corruption of aging and cynical solipsism. Now those legacy churches are an ugly riot of miscreant bullies – of the sort Jesus of Nazareth took a special umbrage to. The movement has these constitutional flaws that don’t seem to leave – perhaps its because it’s dogma considers itself the sole guardian of the “Truth”….This is the fate of the first church some 80 generations ago….some things never change. For every big step forward, there seem to always be a few back. The hope is our species will evolve, and people like you who keep that idealism alive are the downpayment on that faith. Jesus’s miracle was he represented that big step forward so long before all these cascading missteps which followed occurred.
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Headless Unicorn Guy… Are you being sarcastic when you state the following or do you really fully mean it?
Well, the Christians in that comment thread got their wish. That Godless Mormon isn’t in the White House. They can take comfort in that as they bend the knee and burn the pinch of incense while the Children’s Choir sings to Obamessiah. At least they stood for Christ and kept that Mormon (TM) out!
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Nate: “Evangelicals have a flaw. That flaw is belief in an object, the Bible, instead of faith in God.”
I have been saying for years that “fungelicals” make the Bible the “fourth person” of the Trinity…
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Saw you reprint on CSM on Yahoo.
Hope you are correct. The trouble with evangelicals today is that they do not follow George Carlin’s advice “Keep Thy Religion to Thyself.”
I have always been an atheist since I was dragged to Latin Mass as a child and it never took.
One of my best friends was evangelical and his family did not even own a TV. He graduated from Biola when he went on to school. We were great friends growing up and he had his beliefs and I had mine.
I grew up in the Mormon West and played basketball at the Mormon Stake and had Mormon teachers in school and Mormon friends. They are good people, almost every one I ever met.
People can believe whatever they want and as long as that is something to instill virtue and honesty and honor in them all the better.
In the last 20 years evangelicals have forgotten George’s Rule and have tried to influence others and government in accordance with their views. That is unacceptable in America with separation of church and state. Unacceptable. If it continues there is a backlash forming that will push back very hard against it. Your articles recognize this is coming.
Just remember that there are 15%, and more every year, of the population who are atheists and we do not have any belief in any god of any kind. We have no need of saving at all because we do not believe that there is any heaven, or hell, or Jesus, or angels or buddha or satan, or anything like that.
I will continue as most other atheists will continue be honest hard working members of society with the same virtues and upstanding character as any religious person. We are no more or less happy, sad, fulfilled or unfulfilled than any other human on earth.
Less religion of all types is a good thing not a bad thing.
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@Nate: I can see your point, but there’s no flaw to the Bible, it still conveys a message of truth. Infallible…yes, Inerrant….possible not. The translations could’ve been mixed or we’re missing some key words, but the general content isn’t lacking any truthful message. And that would have to be an objective truth as well.
2 Timothy 3:16
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Dear Michael,
I just read your post in Christian Science Monitor. I was very much a part of the Calvary Chapel phenomenomen in the 70s. Became involved in Youth With A Mission in the 80s. Graduated from an Assembly of God College… became a youth minister in a church, took over the group when the pastor had an indescretion with a woman, and was asked to step down because I was a woman. I had grown the group from 30 kids to 75 kids with a thriving adult leadership team. Needless to say, because I wasn’t “a man”, in a church that ordains women, I left the church all together and began to study Matthew Fox and his theology of creation spirituality in Original Blessing… Now jump forward 20 years and check in via Facebook on those I fellowshipped with years ago… they are protesting the Mexicans coming into the country… they are hatemongers when it comes to homosexuality, and they tout a conservative platform that assaults my logic. It is embarrassing to even state that I am a Christian these days.
What ever happened to “loving your neighbor” Is not the homosexual our neighbor? Is not the Mexican our neighbor?
Evangelicals have focused on the so called “great commission” when Jesus only said there was one “great commandment”… to Love God and others. I hope that the faith that emerges amongst our young is one of a deep commitment to loving as a spiritual path. It is easier “to do” which border on conjuring, that it is “to be” loving. I have sometimes referred to evangelicals as those who are saved, but often still LOST.
It is nice to be part of a community that is thinking about these things and pondering the impact. I am not sure I see eye to eye with you on everything, but I am definitely elated that you are thinking about these things and publishing them.
Thanks
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Fatigue – that’s what will bring about its demise. People flocked to Evangelicism for simple answers and the promise of non-judgmental fellowship. They got the former but usually missed the later. The problem with simple answers is that also can be simple to formulate and suffer reasoned inquiry.
Evangelicism is a tribal religious practice taking its form from the orthodoxy of our ancient ancestors. Eventually we will evolve (oops, sorry) into that more modern, rational creature we evidently have been moving toward for centuries. Our species seems to take two steps back for each big one forward…and I think we are getting ready for another step forward.
The appeal of American Evangelicalism and all orthodox approaches are it’s bold assertions in an uncertain, modern world. An era noted by our vexation with questions, and questions are threatening to dogma – doubting Thomas notwithstanding. Evangelicalism could never really explain the world to its thinking adherents, and as America is in the early stages of a new economic reality we can expect to see many questions being asked and hard thinking endeavored. This may not bode well for American Evangelicism, but its not going away either. What I hope is that it changes to a form that’s honest about what it KNOWS vs what it BELIEVES. It will blossom if it does and may find itself a little less self righteous as a result.
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Anna A
I’m off topic in a busy thread!
Just wanted to say thanks.
Sharon
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Michael please gets in touch with “J†and offer him the occasional guest post as a “friendly atheist†the man is a genius!
God Bless
Steve in Toronto
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“I think that theologically limp-wristed preachers like Joel Osteen (the smiley preacher), who refuse to discuss sin and repentance (the very reason for salvation), are so symptomatic of the man-tainted gospel that has been preached for the last quarter of the 20th century.
I pray that in the collapse, the message of Godly men like Ray Comfort will be elevated above the ear-tickling, milquetoast gospel of most modern pastors.”
I think Joel Osteen and Ray Comfort both have a place. Some people need Joel Osteen’s message, some don’t. Some people need Ray Comfort’s message, some don’t. Different medicine for different needs.
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Michael,
This series has gotten a lot of amens from a lot of hardline Christians that have a dispensational theology that colors everything they see, hear, believe and predict. On the BHT you noted that pessimistic, nutty, save up 30 days of food type of panic is common, and those groups can’t get enough of it.
Do you think your predictions feed into and are supported by this type of worldview because it parallels the cataclysmic nuttery on a cultural level?
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WOW. Your writings on this topic only confirmed some of what I’ve been thinking and saying and seeing. You hit the nail on the head with much of this.
The only area of different opinion that I had was the area of the denomination. I don’t believe it will go away. I believe it will look different. With the rise of the video venue and satellite church, the new denomination is a church brand. Lifechurch, Willow Creek, and other video venues have seemingly started their own denominations. They are a fellowship of churches based on the same beliefs, same teacher, same structure. The old denomination will pass in time. The new one will be on the rise.
THANK YOU for saying what I’ve been thinking!
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I have a memory of a distant time when AOL created a portal to allow it’s members onto the USNET groups. Seems like a similar thing happening here. 🙂
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Nate:
Your comments are dead on! But it is not just Evangelicals, and I fear that other Christian denominations will eventually follow the decline of the Evangelicals.
We (I am LDS [Mormon]) believe that revelation continues today and that we can have a very personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
We believe the Bible is not a closed canon of God! The Bible never says that it is! It only says that the Book of Revelation cannot be added to or deleted. (study the HISTORY of the Bible and the Nicea Counsel)
We believe God is a living God that loves us and wants us to all come back to Him.
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Yeah, the fact that “creation science” and Bible memorization are taught in most public high school biology classes (I’m pretty sure that the Ten Commandments are taught in most high school civics courses, too–and I hear that memorizing passages from Leviticus is a popular disciplinary measure in San Francisco’s public school system) is clearly a symptom of John Dewey’s anti-disciplinary education theories and the entrenchment of the radically secularist teachers’ unions.
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As somebody who worked in the Balkans during the 1990’s, I could never become Catholic or Orthodox. Both used their religious clout in a very ugly way during the Bosnian wars. That’s a lot of what you are saying with your article: Evangelicals have tried to use their clout in ways that others feel is ugly. A lot of people feel like I do – in reverse.
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I found your comments very interesting, so thank you for posting this. Though it is largely what I’ve felt about Evangelicalism for a while. I grew up Baptist and was very involved (rarely a week would go by when my family wouldn’t have gone to church four times just in a week). But as a teenager I realized that my loyalty did not actually lie with Christ but with the church. I know that’s an odd thing to say, but to put it simply, all the church gave me was words about Christ, and my “personal relationship with Christ” consisted of doing what those words about Christ told me I should do. Once I had absorbed all those words (going to church 4x a week and being home-schooled will make that happen pretty quickly), going to church itself became pretty superfluous.
I also tired quickly of the culture wars and the political posturing. If I need a psychology/biology/history book I just go buy the best one, not a second-rate knock-off which claims to be the best because it is “Christian.” The perceived “martyrdom” that Evangelicals feel they suffer from the “liberal media” is really just silly. And if I hear the line “Israel is a special miracle of God and Israeli’s and God’s special chosen people” again I might just throw up. I lived in Israel, the supposed debauchery of Northeast Ivy League Universities has nothing on what actually goes on in Israel every single day (God’s Righteous Soldiers, the IDF, are, in fact, encouraged to be promiscuous). Just mentioning this in Evangelical circles is enough to engender for myself a lot of hate, along with the fact that while I was in Jerusalem I learned Arabic.
Living overseas also showed me how much of the Evangelicalism I grew up on is dependent upon American culture for its relevance. Once removed from the American context, Evangelicalism lost its meaning for me.
In the end I became Orthodox, and became one of the many recent converts. The fact that Orthodoxy exists in a wide range of cultures was certainly an attraction, as was the combination of a “high-church” worship style with theological conservatism (a dying breed in the western church, unfortunately). But most important was the fact that Orthodoxy “incarnates” Christ to me. Yes, those “idolatrous” icons and “contrived” rites bring me personally closer to Christ, more than a continuous loop of “Praise & Worship” songs followed by a 45 minute sermon ever could. This, in most cases, is what makes Evangelical converts to Orthodoxy so zealous – not having to sing “Lord, I want to see you” 50x (with “more feeling” with each repetition), but continuously having a taste of Christ’s presence, readying oneself for the day when we will see him “as he is” (which is something, we should always remember, will be a great and terrible thing!).
Therefore, I’m a bit confused by the comments here which, on the one hand, deplore Evangelicalism for its superficial theology, but on the other hand says that Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox should “just unite.” The theological differences between these three groups is not simply on obscure doctrines or church polity. Either one has has Communion with Christ physically, or one has Communion with Christ mentally. The difference between these two approaches is not simply phenomenological, but touches down to the core of Christian soteriology. Merely “overlooking” this difference in the name of unity runs the risk of trivializing something which is not only very unique to the Christian faith, but absolutely central in it.
Also, while I realize that the Emergent Church has not been able to gain a unified structure (though I think that’s part of their point) it’s message will continue to be influential in the Evangelical sphere. Interactive and experiential modes of worship are increasingly important (says the Orthodox!) to my generation (are we on Generation Z yet? I keep on getting confused). We all may laugh at extreme examples, like eating Basil leaves which walking in sand (they meant to have people identify with the life of the Forerunner, hopefully) and I obviously think they are trying to reinvent the wheel, but here I think they may be able to offer Evangelicalism a model for the future.
To conclude, a groaner for Lent – In peas lettuce pray to the Lord!
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Many LDS (including myself) feel that way about the GOP and unfortunately the Evangelicals now as well. The LDS generally vote Republican and have stood by every Evangelical candidate (Bush, etc) until this last election when Romney ran. The many many Evangelicals turned on us and refused to vote for Romney, not because of his stance on issues (and he had a number of problems in my book), but because he was LDS. Because of the Evangelical refusal to even consider Romney because of his religion, they would not support Huckabee and never will. — Lance in TX
Remember Hugh Hewitt? Radio personality and Romney man in the primaries?
He did an online interview for Christianity Today in early 2008 pushing Romney as the best candidate from the Christian POV, the only “Traditional Family Values” type with a decent chance of winning the election.
I saw the comment thread from that interview webpage. A flood of Denunciations from SCRIPTURE (TM) of Mormon Cultic False Doctrine. No mention of Romney other than his Mormonism, and that only to denounce him to Hell.
Well, the Christians in that comment thread got their wish. That Godless Mormon isn’t in the White House. They can take comfort in that as they bend the knee and burn the pinch of incense while the Children’s Choir sings to Obamessiah. At least they stood for Christ and kept that Mormon (TM) out!
Part of it is that the Evangelical culture that Michael and I know is very anti-education. Some even prefer their pastors to only be high school graduates. Their view of Genesis one is very strict, and woe to anyone who questions it. As a chemist, I can say that even the science done by the Creation Research Institute is not the best in the world. — Anna A
That’s what really gets me. Evangelical Christians’ tunnel-vision fanboy obsession on Young Earth Creationism Uber Alles and Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist.
Part of being a good scientist is questioning and doubting until honest tests are done. Doubt and questions are strongly discouraged in that culture. — Anna A
I used to snark that the only difference between Christians and Communists was they quoted different Party Lines to the Comrades.
The only way that I survived is by keeping my science and my faith in two separate boxes. — Anna A
As did I until I swam back across the Tiber.
“Swear alliegance to the flag,
Whatever flag they offer;
Never let on
What you really feel…”
— Mike and the Mechanics, “Silent Running”, 1986
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Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system, what productive good is bashing Catholicism really going to do in addressing the problems that Michael and so many others here have so eloquently outlined? Is yelling at Catholics, calling them morally bankrupt apostates, going to combat the Cancer which is the Prosperity Gospel? Is touting claims about the insufficient Christianity of Catholics going to reverse the damage that the past thirty years of waging the Culture War have wrought on Christendom in North America? Will calling them and their clergy heretics give meaning to a generation of people who feel a sense of meaninglessness in the inexcusable and unavoidable hypocrisies they see in Evangelicalism today? Will it help to heal the divisions and brokenness I’ve seen in the posts and comments on this blog from Evangelicalism’s inability to deal with family pressures, economic hardship, and mental illness? — Rampancy
The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648.
There are a lot who still haven’t gotten the news.
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I grew up in a fairly liberal family, went to a fantastic public school, and graduated a few years ago from my native state’s largest university. I have been to college parties that ranged from a bunch of friends sitting around watching a movie to outright mayhem with the cops being called several times.
In high school instead of preaching the evils of booze to me, my parents taught me responsibility. They made a deal with me that if I ever drank and needed a ride that I should call them at any hour and they would pick me up as fast as possible. My punishment would probably be a weekend grounded or some chores. If I ever drove drunk or got into a car with a drunk driver my punishment would involve being grounded for months. I did go to parties in high school (most of the time I would DD for some friends).
In college I watched as several, very religious freshman, whose parents had always threatened terrible punishment if they partied, go absolutely crazy. Once the booze started flowing it never stopped. Many of them flunked out becasue they were drinking every night of the week. They never knew anything but fire and brimstone from their parents and once they got out from underneath there was no good reason for them to obey anymore.
So yeah, I went to parties, drank beers with some friends. I ALWAYS had a sober ride. I did have premarital sex, but it was consensual, and never was it a “drunken orgy”. In the end I ended up being far more devout then many of the kids who showed up with bibles in hand, most of whom dropped out. Had their parents taught them about responsibility and self control instead of just punishment perhaps their collegiate career would have turned out better
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I appreciate the issues you raised and the way it is making me think. Your statment, “Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism” is probably more true than false but I’m thinking it’s because, where else can we go? We’re citizens too and we have to vote. If the GOP happens to be the party that fields candidates with convictions that I can support 90% percent of the time, is that my fault? I wish it weren’t, that I could support liberal positions. But I see them as anti-biblical. I’m not advocating theocracy nor do I deny that the ship is going down, but as a Christian I’m fighting a rear-guard action to slow the enemy’s advance while we get the lifeboats loaded. I’m looking forward to thinking through your issues in depth and raising them with my band of brothers to discuss. Thanks!
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*J: do you have a blog? ‘Cause I’d read it.*
I’m on indefinite hiatus from my blog, as I felt it was distracting me from other, important things, and also had become frankly boring and solipsistic. But you’re welcome to read the old entries, if you want.
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Evangelicals have a flaw. That flaw is belief in an object, the Bible, instead of faith in God. To believe that the Bible is the closed canon of God is to believe that God is dead with no more revelations. The Bible conveyed the message of Jesus over the centuries. The message is true, but the interpretations have gone astray. We are much like little lambs. Hope the sheppard gets to us before the wolf.
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J: do you have a blog? ‘Cause I’d read it.
Michael: another great article, pointing out the reality of where things are at, and even including some helpful thoughts on how to deal with those things. As usual, this is decried by those who want everything in their little kingdom to be okay as is, with no need for personal change, or God forbid, repentance.
It’s funny to hear people who consider themselves “evangelicals” argue that it’s okay to continually toss the Evangel out the back door, and then get offended when you suggest this is hurting their movement. And by “funny” I mean mind-numbingly tragic.
Seriously, dude, you need to write a book. I’ll buy three.
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azazel: I’m not printing that last line, so deal with it.
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Fearsome Comrade, indeed teachers’ unions and the abandonment of high standards have devastated US education. The introduction of curricula such as “creation science”, and the appointment of evangelicals to school boards are symptoms of a larger issue — trading rationality for faith and belief.
[MOD EDIT]
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*I got lost when it turned into an argument about drunken college orgies. Are people seriously arguing that didn’t happen? Did you just not get invited? I’m sorry you missed it!*
That would be the *other* big piece of evidence against the “OMG drunken orgies!” silliness: I went to an out-and-out Ivy League university and, notably, the one with the *least* history of religious involvement (was not started by any denomination, does not now nor ever has had a school of divinity, has the only English-language motto/seal in the Ivies) and if there were orgies going on *why wasn’t I invited*?
Seriously: I was a normal, healthy young man of–if I do say so myself–decent attractiveness: Why was I not being recruited left and right for sodomistic filth parties? Somebody at the Council of Sin and Wickedness let me slip through the cracks, let me tell you.
But, I guess Common Reader is right and I am wrong: While everyone else was off having glorious drunken orgies, I wasted my college years drinking white russians in the basement of my co-op playing Street Fighter 2 with my friends and, y’know, studying.
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Gone is the anti-science faith based nonsense that for 30 years has disintegrated our educational system.
Yes, what’s really deep-sixed the public schools over the last thirty years has been the religious instruction and widespread, dogmatic insistence on using Genesis 1 in biology class. If it’s one thing American public schools are famous for, it’s teaching the Bible in every facet of education. America’s educational slide cleary has nothing to do with John Dewey, the teachers’ unions, or the abandonment of high standards. It’s those fundamentalist Christians who are running the schools into the ground.
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As a fellow Kentukian I probably had in mind many of the Lexington Mega-churches you did writing this. I was deeply saddened to see a kind of pop-Christinaity invade the Baptist church I grew up in. It’s not like our scripture training was THAT good to begin with. (Had a debate with some sundayschool classmates about whether “God helps those who help themselves” was in the Bible. THey assured me it was “in there somewhere”.)
Anyway as former Baptist now Orthodox I appreciate you acknowledging the evangellical to Orthodox phenomenon.
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There is only one thing missing from this dire scenario and that is God Himself. While it is easy to read the tea leaves of obvious and visible transitions in time and culture, it is not out of line with what the Lord predicted will happen. All things will be shaken, beginning with the church.
Even as no one could have predicted the outporing of the spirit that occured in the 60-ies and 70-ies, we don’t know what God will do in the near future. Let’s pray that the Holy Spirit is poured out again.
What is of utmost importance for all of us is to make sure that the foundations of our faith, the faith of Abraham and our access to it through the Messiah – Jesus Christ, are in place and on solid ground. That is what needs to be taught to our kids.
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Excellent post. I linked here through CSMonitor through DailyKos. I have the opinion that the demise of all “Evangilical” types of religions will only ameliorate the world we live in. As a soldier, I have fought to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan. Religion must be kept separate from politics and schools. Subjecting children to extreme religious education is akin to child abuse. Let the kids decide for themselves if they need “salvation”. Christianists don’t hold the market on “truth”.
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Brian:
I didn’t write about Christianity. You must have read the wrong article. I wrote about evangelicalism. Not Catholics, Orthodox or mainliners. Only tangentially about Pentecostals. Evangelicals are one slice of the pie. So please don’t accuse me of predicting the end of Christianity. I said no such thing. I didn’t even predict the end of evangelicalism. I said it would deflate and change. Smaller. Not gone.
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Your predictions could turn out to be true, but I would not be surprised if you turn out to be wrong.
It’s true that Christianity is “losing its relevance,” but only when “relevance” is defined as “influencing public policy.” I do not think that the purpose of evangelical Christianity is to shape the law so that it reflects contemporary Christian morality.
Non-Christians are primarily exposed to Christianity from media sources who typically link it to conservative politics and the Republican party. It is not wrong for Christians to choose their politics to reflect their spiritual views. Does it make more sense for Christians to choose their spirituality based on their politics?
However, this firmly plants Christianity on one side of controversial subjects, which is incorrect and unfortunate. For this reason, I think it is no coincidence that Christianity gets so much criticism, while other religions receive much more tolerance. We worry that Muslims in the US might be the targets of rage from 911, while we treat Christians with all the disrespect of political opponents.
In the US, if your politics doesn’t line up item-by-item with the Democrat party, then Democrats typically regard you as some crazy, right-wing lunatic. Similarly, if you don’t check all the boxes on the Republican parties ideology list, Republicans treat you like a left-wing Marxist/atheist. When we combine Christianity with politics, the result is that 25-45% of the population will think that Christians are some sort of insane political opponent.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that will change anytime soon, because the media is so biased. Not so much against conservatism, as biased towards political perspectives on everything in the news. Christians just don’t matter to the news people except for how they vote, and who they vote for.
However, I think this has been going on for about 50 years, and the evangelicals are still here. 🙂 Church statistics show that 20-30 year olds leave the church, and then come back between 30-60 years old. You seem to project that they will never come back, which is a large assumption.
One error you make is dismissing “relevant” churches, since they are not “doctrine” churches. Apparently, churches that become relevant work against evangelism (?). Well, if that is the case, then the church is truly done for. However, I think that “doctrine” is “relevant”, and churches that emphasize the application of scripture in our day-to-day lives is what church should be all about (not the “God wants you to be rich” stuff that I hear about). There is a “relevant mega church” in my community that does more to bring young people to Christ than any other church, and it does this by showing them what the Bible has to say to them about their lives. I’m not sure that spells the “death knell” of evangelism. Rather, I see churches needing to show how spirituality is relevant in order to survive. After all, I can believe in Jesus and go to heaven without ever going to church, according to some people’s doctrine.
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Matt: Question 3: From Wesley to Spurgeon to Billy Graham to Rick Warren. Non-liberal, evangelistic, church growth, missions oriented, personal conversion experience, Bible centewred
Question 2: That number is skewed. Evangelicals are only growing because people who are not affiliated with any church with gone to the megachurches in large numbers over the past two decades. But that is at the cost of many small churches and is an affiliation based more on cultural and personal preferences than conversion. And I never said there wouldn’t be some evangelicals growing. I think many always will. But there will be a lot quitting as well.
Question 1: I think evangelicalism is too narrow a slice of Christian tradition. It is also too pragmatic. Too oriented toward numbers. Has leadership issues. Suffers from not relating to the larger tradition.
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This is good news, indeed. Gone is the anti-science faith based nonsense that for 30 years has disintegrated our educational system. Perhaps Christians should focus more on New Testament teachings – Mathew: 5-8; and overcome their affinity for idolatry over the Ten Commandments.
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My daughter sent me the link to this article this was my reply to her.
It is very interesting and not to disagree just to disagree but he left out one key element if not the key element.
Our faith and religion is based upon something that no other religion on the face of this planet has and that is simply
that our God is a person, we are formed in his image and He desires our company and rewards us with relationship with Him
if we adhere to His voice and obey, respect, cherish and worship the one true God.
If it all comes apart then maybe He did it or maybe we did it by building a house that didn’t include Him?
Your personal relationship with God is the #1 factor in your whole life. Spending time in a prayer closet (or empty quiet space)
so that you can hear Him speak to you is the BREAD OF LIFE, that which sustains you.
Honey, chase hard after that relationship with Him first, and all the rest (blessing) will follow. That’s a promise.
Gods presence is obvious and unmistakable.
Christ in you the hope of glory.
Colossians 1:27 (New International Version)
> Paul’s Labor for the Church
> 24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
>
> 28We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.
I also like 28, “admonishing” that is what I’d like to say to the author of this piece “You sir stick to that which our Lord has directed you to do from your personal prayer time and then (if directed) share that at your local Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist
Catholic or non denominational church of your choice and see what the Word of the Lord can accomplish.
I think he is sharing out of frustration the effects of a people who come or don’t come having listened to the world and society
and they share that frustration rather than what God told them in secret.
We who are leaders, lead by example.
Lord heal my Girl, hold her close and whisper to her that she would be full of your presence.
Love you Sofia
DAD
Christ Scientists really should be filled more with Christ than science ———– first things first.
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Great article, and right on. The demise was sealed when a large number of evangelicals embraced the tyranical temptations of political power when that power seemed to be within reach. This hyprocritical stance also stained the conservative movement through dual contamination.
Christians where never called to limit liberty through power over each other, and principled conservatives should have never sold liberty down the river for a few votes from the obnoxious travelling circus that much of the evangelical movement has become. I say the faithful should rejoice that the demise of the petty wannabe politicians, power grabbers, and money changers is upon us.
Its funny that you mentioned catholicism gaining in number…funny, in light of the fact that I am near conversion, after 33 years of a bible based evangelical church that my father and 7 other families started and now has a few thousand members, but has been corrupted by the Focus on the Families of the world and their ‘Christianity as a political party’ leanings.
Thanks.
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I think there will be a backlash to the secularism that is now being force fed to America.
You’ve given me a good idea for a bumper sticker.
Government might be your God but it isn’t mine.
Take care and God bless you for this debate.
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I’ve read the whole post on the Evangelical Collapse and I find myself agreeing with you. I’ve been thinking about it for a while but haven’t had the confidence to say it out loud. Now I have in my blog.
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Geez, Michael!
You’re so mainstream nowadays…
I liked this site better when you were underground.
Remember back when “Twenty Kinds of People Who Lurk, Read and Comment at IM” came out? You RULED then. You were awesome. That was a classic.
How about “Preparing To Meet The Void”, that post where you and your wife gave up TV? I felt like you really took us all on a journey that day.
Now you’re on Drudge, you got a piece in CSM… You’ve changed, bro.
Don’t worry though; the true IM fans will always be there, even when the poseurs leave.
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I just caught your article in the CSMonitor and found your blog. You make some very interesting points. A couple of questions:
1. Do you think Evangelicalism itself is flawed, or just what it has generally become in many churches?
2. Cnn.com had a writeup of the ARIS survey and claims Evangelical Christianity is on the rise, unlike other denominations. I saw that you have a summary of the same survey and I am not seeing that trend. Do you think Evangelicalism has peaked, or will soon?
3. How would you define Evangelical Christianity? According to Wikipedia it is a break from Fundamentalism aimed at engaging the culture as opposed to condemning it. Do you think engaging the culture or evangelizing is important? It is interesting to see this article and the ARIS survey a the same time I am seeing stories of population declining in European countries. My first thought is that no reproduction leads to dwindling numbers. Do you think lack of desire for spiritual reproduction is a problem in the Church?
I go to what would be considered a non-denomination Bible church, but could easily be lumped as an Evangelical. I don’t see many of the problems you mentioned at my church, but I sometimes feel like something is wrong, and I can’t put my finger on it. As I read blogs and have visited other churches in the city, I notice a growing trend of disunity in the church. I hear more about what other ‘types’ of Christians are doing wrong or have done wrong than what we need to be doing now. I was not a fan of ‘Blue Like Jazz’ which was the first I saw of this trend. I don’t feel like I am part of a global Christian community, but feel like I am in the middle of a philosophical-cultural-theological debate. I don’t feel like I am a part of something big working towards a common goal, but that I must defend or prove myself to the unbeliever as well as fellow believers.
Anyway, I think you make some great points about the problems with many churches. The problems I have seen are different, but in general I do not know what to do about them. I guess I feel like focusing on other churches problems is part of the problem.
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I just read the article in CSM and found it very intriguing. I agree with you about the trends you see. Not sure I agreed with all your conclusions; I’m still trying to work out the point you make about how it has been bad for the church to become associated with the culture war or if that is simply not a necessary calling of the church. However, a very perceptive and interesting piece.
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Wow!
So much to digest.
The only thing I can add is that I an “unchurched” Christian and will remain so until it is something deeper than Jesus is my BFFL and other such drivel coming out of the Evangelical church.
RCC and Orthodox, sorry, too much nonsense that goes along with the good.
Pastors.
Stop the emphasis on growth.
Stop the pandering to the lowest denominator.
Give us meat and nourishment from the Word.
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imonk,
I’d try to tell you to be Episcopalian like me, but we have a hell of a lotta problems right now! At least, in North America. (not that I’m without hope)
By the way, all interested, despite some fierce Catholic bashing on some comments so far, I have noticed it is the Catholics we are acting gracefully and ecumenically! (not that it’s always like that, but my Catholic friends are great!)
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Lance:
https://internetmonk.com/archive/the-aris-study-christianity-on-the-decline-in-america
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iMonk,
Thank you for the information about ARIS. I will look it up.
And thank you for the work and effort you have put into your site. I have looked at some of the other articles and have found them interesting.
lance
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If the evangelical church is going down the drain they are not alone. The same is happening to the Catholic church. Hundreds of Churches have been closed throughout the USA and Europa. To much bible talk but no worship in the protestant churches. No guidance in daily life No teaching of right and wrong e.a.SIN.The church of Rome has lost the faith also during the last 40 years, it is only getting worse.Like the protestants, Priest have not been validly consecrated so the bishops.Catholics and also protestants have made concessions with the world They do not fight for their faith anymore.The Catholic Church will disappear only an remnant will keep the faith and survive. We live the great apostasy Everhardus
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Lance,
ARIS is sociological research. Statistics. Surveys. Not Bible study.
I’m completely aware of the difference in these two “churches,” but since I’m not God and I can’t sort them out, I am commenting on what we see sociologically and culturally.
I appreciate the Biblical message on the church and have blogged about it here for many years. Do a search.
peace
ms
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iMonk,
It is possible that people are writting about the “Church” as the visible Church because that is what they believe IS the Church. They are not prepared to dig deeper into the Scriptures. It is out of their comfort zone.
One of the reasons I left the Episcopal and Catholic Churches (I was attended both as I grew up because of my parent’s divorce) and left ALL organized religion was because the people I saw did not understand what the “Church” was and I felt there was soo much missing.
People would “go to Church” and be nice and friendly IN the Church building and then scream at each other, cuss at each other, and overall be rude and crude as they were LEAVING the parking lot! They thought all they had to do was show up on Sunday, put some money in the tray, listen to the Pastor/Priest for a little bit, and they were good. It was hypocracy! I could not deal with it anymore (I was 16 at the time).
I tried a number of other Christian religions. None provided what I needed. I found the LDS Church and it did.
It sounds like most of the people on here have found what they are looking for in their denominations and I am very happy for each of you! Each person has to find a demonination that provides the level of Truth and Knowledge they are comfortable with.
The most important thing is finding Jesus Christ, making Him part of your life, and living as He has taught us to live by His example.
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Yes jarbee, we should just all stay in our little prayer closets and let the whole of society go to Hell without a whimper of protest, eh? Ah yes, “there wouldn’t be a problem,” indeed.
Sheesh.
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As an Orthodox Christian, the influx of traditional “Bible-believing” Protestants is a development that I find quite positive. However, the general collapse of Christian culture that you mention disturbs me. I hope that you are wrong, though our civilization’s general modern trend toward paganism seems pretty regular. Will the phoenix rise from the ashes?
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You underestimate Jesus Christ. Major mistake.
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I believe you need to attend the nearest Vineyard church that you can find.
Maybe then you’ll write something worth reading.
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iMonk, you are right; it is ALL “The Church”, and we shouldn’t separate the two, because there are many, many faithful in every denomination. Men cannot say what is or isn’t of God. My earlier post was meant to point out the WHY that certain parts will fall away or collapse. Many churches dwell on the crucifixion of God and not the resurrection and redemption. The Sonship message has been lost to many. But one can only walk in the light one is given and one cannot live on a borrowed revelation. God is in-dewlling His faithful even more, so even though they will still want to fellowship, the need for brick and mortar and leaders other than Christ will pass away as we are adopted in as the Sons of God and changed into His image. They won’t GO to Church because they ARE the Church.
Before I saw your article, I saw a survey a few days ago about how many people claim not to have a religion, but I wonder if the surveyors asked “Do you have a relationship with God?” I think there are many faithful out there who don’t have a “religion” but people have come here to say that they do, however, have a relationship with God.
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While I found you article very interesting, containing many insightful points, you seem to have forgot one thing or maybe I should say One Being.
All of what you say may come to pass but only if it’s part of God’s sovereign plan. Spiritual awakenings occur not necessarily when the Church is doing all the right things (has it ever?), but rather they occur when the Holy Spirit moves.
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Interesting article of yours I read in the CSM. I often wonder if people in the evangelical movement can see the forest for the trees.
If Evangelical Christians focused on their individual relationship with Jesus rather than other peoples’ relationship with Him, there wouldn’t be a problem. How deeply rooted is the faith of the judgmental? Rooted in rock.
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You know, about a hundred people have written today to say that when you talk about the “church,” you can’t talk about the visible church or people who say they are Christians. Oh no. You must talk about the “true church,” which is perfect, known to God, faithful, etc.
Listen people, I’m not writing about THAT church. I’m writing about the OTHER one. I understand the difference and don’t need it explained to me.
Why are you even reacting to or reading ANYTHING about the visible church if you believe it’s NOT THE CHURCH?
ms
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It seems like your taking Biblical Christianity and lumping it in with some real problems in the church and saying that the answer is watered down Christianity. Evengelical Christianity can not be categorized as all of the ills of the modern church. There is only one Jesus to follow and the way is not new. God’s word does call us to spread the Gospel (evangelize). While clearly many are not found of the church and the church has its issues, the body of Christ is the Church and because there are those who are disenchanted with the church does not idict the entire church.
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Ernie Banks:
You appear to not understand several major points of what I wrote.
I have written for 8 years about evangelicalism. Check out the archives above. And today Drudge, etc link me. And YOU come over here and impugn what I’ve done. I never asked CSM or Drudge or anyone for a link. I’ve never asked anyone for a link in 8 years.
If you want to talk about the topic, talk. If not, write me and tell me what a bad person I am and then move on.
ms
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Ernie Banks:
“You use the word “collapse†to grab headlines, promote your bias, and sell books.”
Not yet he doesn’t (sell books), but a lot of folks appear to be working on him.
“We vote, and we say what we think. We are not collapsing.”
Maybe you are “misunderestimating” things.
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Bobby:
Entirely too long. Just link it please
http://christiansinagreement.blogspot.com/2007/08/i-am-born-again-cradle-catholic-who-has.html
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If the comments keep up like this, I’m gonna have to apportion another hour to my nightly checking out IM
Welcome all you new readers
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Thank you for this article! It really outlines what I have been thinking of what is becoming of American Christians. You have articulated my thoughts.
There is a difference between “a cause” and “faith” and I believe faith is being left out of most of what I think are the “feel good” religions.
And I enjoy reading all the entries on the blog as they give me more ideas to think about.
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I’m kind of surprised at the optimism some have expressed here based on the greater number of children born in conservative families.
If there’s anything we can NOT take for granted, it certainly would be the assumption that the younger generation will follow in the footsteps of their parents as far as church allegiance is concerned.
If many of them happen to remain in an evangelical church, they will most likely continue within a very differently shaped evangelicalism than the one we’re seeing today.
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Like many others here today, I ran across your CSM article through the Drudge Report. I think that Evangelical movement is collapsing but I don’t necessarily agree with some of your ideas. My aim here is to seek clarification for some of your supporting arguments in addition to attempting to determine what aspects of evangelical Christianity have brought you to these conclusions.
Before I get too far, I’d like to mention that I have a problem with the use of the term, “evangelical Christianity” when it comes to describing the Protestant portion of the body of believers. I understand that this branding of the Protestant movement didn’t originate with you but I don’t think it should necessarily continue to be used to identify one specific denomination either. After all, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ demands that all Christians share the Gospel (Acts 1:8 among many other verses clearly demonstrate this). By very definition, this is evangelizing (preaching the Gospel). I understand the intent behind the use of the term but I think that many Christians today need a healthy reminder of one of our Lord’s desires for us here on Earth.
Secondly, you state that, “Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake.”
I hope what you are trying to say here is that those of us who identify ourselves as evangelical Christians should spend more time concentrating on spreading the Gospel and living as Christ would has us live than making demons out of those who advocate morally reprehensible behaviors. If this is the point behind the statement, “We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.”, then I think I can agree with you.
I am still guilty at times of looking on those that advocate socially liberal policies with a degree of contempt and in some circumstances, hatred. This is not a Christ-like behavior, even if it’s not verbalized. Can we expect a three-year-old to behave as an adult should? Absolutely not. They don’t have the capacity. By the same argument, we should not expect the lost to behave as if they were followers of Christ.
There is a danger here, however, in keeping silent on culturally polarizing issues. We must not seek to keep silent on gay marriage or abortion for example. We have just as much right as the social liberals do to voice our opinions. We must also assure ourselves that our silence on issues that are contrary to Christian doctrine would not result in a ideological disarmament of the left either.
As an American citizen, a registered voter and an Evangelical, I will cast my vote for the individual that appears to share the majority of my own spiritual, social and economic world views. If that individual happens to be a Democrat, then so be it.
If you believe that I still fail to grasp what you are referring to in that paragraph, please enlighten me.
Additionally, where have we Evangelicals failed to pass on to our young people a faith that can survive the secular onslaught? I am not stating that you are wrong in this conclusion necessarily but I would love to see some further input from you to back this claim up.
If anything is damaging the faith of our young people, it’s been the destruction of the family unit and parents whose faith is less than genuine. As a youth leader at a Baptist church in our area, I can attest to the impact of the lack of a family unit and parental spiritual leadership.
My wife and I concentrate on the relationship to Jesus Christ that should be at the core of every believer’s faith. We also concentrate on getting our youth to share their faith in an increasingly hostile environment. Despite all that we do to strengthen the faith of our youth, it becomes difficult for them to hang onto and practice that faith when they are returning to a Godless environment at home. Thank God that through Him, nothing is impossible.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
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Much of what you say is the reason I wrote “What’s the Problem With Jesus?”. So much confusion about what a Christian even is these days. People just go on about their business giving little thought to eternity. Seems everyone has a beef with Jesus. It’s really not very complicated.
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I linked here from the Drudge Report.
I’m more depressed about huge ineffective government spending and “one-size-fits-a-few” political developments in the U.S. than I am about the real or imagined decline of Evangelicals.
However, I’m pumped about Biblical Christianity and it’s huge growth in the Majority World (what used to be called “Third World Countries”) right now. It’s no surprise that there are more Christians in the Majority World than there are here in the states. In the U. S., we are a modern secular Roman Empire.
In my denomination, Southern Baptists, There has been a huge swing back to the Bible and to authentic faith. We still have a large number of dying congregations (clinging to their tradition, their buildings, etc instead of their faith), but we also have a large number of new churches that are stripped of the cultural trappings of the 50’s and filled with Biblical preaching. Our denomination has been growing, but our growth is mostly coming from U.S. ethnic congregations.
I’m a seminary student at a Southern Baptist Seminary. Someone above commented about evangelical seminaries being godless, well, my seminary is far from godless.
The truth of the matter is that Evangelicals (and Catholics and Orthodox Jews) were right to fight cultural battles. The popularity of what is right is irrelevant to the responsibility of seeking to promote what is right.
Christians are poised for a comeback because authentic faith is so powerful. Stop being discouraged and worship God! Right now. “Consider how to inspire one another to love and good works.”
William
P.S. someone above mentioned Jesus Camp which led me to this quote:
“The Chicago Tribune reviewer Jessica Reaves gives the film three stars (out of four) and writes that Jesus Camp is “…an enlightening and frank look at what the force known as Evangelical America believes, preaches and teaches their children…” and concludes that what the filmmakers “…have accomplished here is remarkable—capturing the visceral humanity, desire and unflagging political will of a religious movement.”” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp
That is hardly descriptive of all Evangelicals. It’s painting with much too broad a brush. Yes, some evangelicals are charismatic. Yes, some evangelicals are into unpopular science. But, it’s not necessarily so.
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In the article, you wrote: “Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake.”
This is nonsense. Of the two major political parties, one embraced (at least rhetorically) the values of evangelicals, and the other rejected and sneered at these values. Evangelicals (and devout Christians in general) would have been fools not to support and try to add vitality to such a party. But since you complained about it… What, pray tell, is the alternative course that should have been taken? Should it not be the goal of Christians, if the opportunity is there, to prevent the larger culture from becoming a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah?
You then wrote: “Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.”
This was inevitable, anyway. The only way to prevent this (if possible) was for Christians to blithely accept whatever moral “progress” secular society came up with. This is simply unacceptable.
You are likely correct that society will soon turn against us with a vengeance. Yet the Bible promises this as the norm, so perhaps we should accept the past 300 years of Christian ascendance in this nation as the blessing it has been. Generations of Americans have been able to practice their faith freely, praise God. The fact that these days may be ending does not detract from this miracle.
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Interesting read: Almost like an “Evangelical” stock report. In the big picture however, it really does not matter what it’s called, the “Word” will remain forever.
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House churches often do not work out, because they leave their churches over some doctrinal or personality issue, but they take the problems with them – egos flare up and drama ensues. They end up re-creating the very thing they left.
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In general, I’m pretty lukewarm on some aspects of house churches and very excited about others. I had a not so good experience in my own year with a home worship group. Jury is out. Ask Frank Viola 🙂
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Wow, I could not read all the comments here. But I have to tell you, I think Ernie Banks did not like what you had to say. He made me laugh. I doubt if that was his intended response.
Mike
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This “secular jihadist” not only feels that Mr. Spencer is correct, but is looking forward to a day when a spiritual awakening can happen in a manner that is not hijacked by politics and prosperity doctrine.
I may not hear the music, but I recognize the good it can do, nonetheless.
The only people more annoying to me, personally, than the Jerry Falwells of the world are the Bill Mahers, for ridiculing the value people derive from spirituality, just because they don’t personally share it.
(Note, however, that this disdain for both loudmouthed Christians as well as loudmouthed atheists does not extend to political action: I personally expect logic and reason for all political actions, and thus deem Biblically-inerrant thinking, or kneejerk reactions thereto, to be simply improper for the public sphere.)
It’s good –and useful– for Americans to see that the real troops driving Christianity “in-the-trenches” are people who are true to the ideals and principles thereof, and not the bloated gasbags whose primary interest lies in exploiting the culture wars for monetary gain. I believe Jesus had much to say about the nature of temporal versus spiritual reward.
In short: GREAT column, Mr. Spencer, and I hope to see you one day take your place as a leader within your church and the movement it represents. Thanks for making this agnostic feel better than than I’ve felt in a LONG time about the chances of eventually healing the wounds caused by the culture wars in this country.
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imonk –
Well, looks like you’re gonna be busy during Spring Break! 🙂 Amazing! I’m thinking many Christians may be moving to the house/home/simple church concept (or as some would say, BACK to it). I know at least 3 families in my area who are seriously praying about starting churches in their homes. Your thoughts?
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It’s interesting to look at all this in terms of wider economic trends. Have evangelicals over-extended themselves (a la real estate) through unsustainable growth, hence a bubble? Are megachurches like Wal-Mart, putting “mom and pop” churches (well, just pop) out of business?
But there’s one evangelical church whose fortunes can only grow: Landover Baptist Church!
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This “prophecy” does not surprise me in the least. But, I have a slightly different take on it. I have not been “churched” for many years now. I know many others like me. We get our fellowship where and when God sees fit to give it. It is unscheduled, and unplanned sorta like manna from heaven.
I believe that more people are having a personal relationship with God as HE enlightens them. They grow in knowledge of Him as He calls them. I think that organized Christianity is simply another form of Babylon and if God is bringing it down, it’s because He’s done with man doing it his own way. From it’s very beginning as a state sanctioned religion it borrowed from pagans – Not even Jesus’ true birthday was sacred. No wonder “Christmas” is more a cultural celebration than a religious one. All the Protestantism came from that mangled beginning. Politicians sold Christianity out to the statue makers of Roman pagan gods who became saints. The Catholic Church tried to restore the veil in the temple that Christ had torn assunder, by creating a barrier between God and man. I am not decrying the Catholic Church and those who follow that faith, for God has indeed ordained and blessed it (or it would not exist), and I don’t believe those followers are less blessed in God’s eyes, but remember, even Babylon hath been a Golden Cup in the Lord’s Hand. Nothing happens except by God.
I believe the “Church” – The Bride of Christ are the “called out ones” not the brick and mortar buildings that are there to attest to the success of a preaching style or pet doctrine.
I know that sounded really harsh, and I didn’t mean to cast aspersions on every church goer – if someone feels they should be part of a congregation, then by all means, that is where they should be – God has a role for everyone. You are where you were meant to be from the moment of your creation. I’m just saying Salvation and Redemption come from GOD not a church.
There is an interesting website called Letters From Leavers, where people are encouraged to leave comments about why they left their church. I was amazed at how many have left churches, not to become unbelievers, but rather to deepen their relationship with God, to take up their cross every day in their daily lives.
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Congratulations on the exposure. I hope this will not mean a loss of civility in the comment threads of future posts; I am not encouraged by what I have seen in the comments of this post.
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Have you heard of Martin Zender? If So, what do you think of him?
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J: You’ve convinced me. These things didn’t happen, and my daughter’s a liar.
Thanks for the insights.
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Dear Michael,
I’m very sorry that because I, among many others who responded to the unwarranted baiting of Mr. Hazlett, caused you to believe that I wanted to engage him in a useless, negative polemical debate which then prompted you to sequester my opinion in the opposite corner of his. Such was not my intention. I hope that you’ve subsequently seen that the charity and prayer extended his way has been echoed by other RCC posters in addition to mine.
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Thank you Martha. That is high praise.
I have heard from dozens of Catholics seeking to convert me. Several orthodox. Many, many angry atheists. Many fundamentalists whose religion has not made them better people, to say the least. Several LCMS, new age, cults, etc.
And lots and lots of friends. Including some old friends I’d lost track of.
I have banned almost 30 people today.
I have moderated around 200 comments here and another 100+ emails at my gmail address.
And this still hasn’t been as interesting as the comment brawl at team pyro over Mark Driscoll.
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Michael, I am in awe of the multifarious many-faceted nature of your personality.
From a gleaning of the blogs, comments, and whatnot referencing your article, I find that you are at one and the same time a godless liberal salivating over the prospect of the final destruction of Christianity and a foaming-at-the-mouth theocrat urging the Secret Christian Militias to rise up and take over.
Truly, like Whitman, you are large, you contain multitudes 🙂
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I really enjoyed your article and agree with almost everything you said. We as evangelicals must base our faith in the Gospel and not merely on fighting issues. Issues are merely the symptom of what is wrong with our culture. The heart of the problem is the need of the Gospel. I believe that we have forsaken our true source of power in Jesus Christ and have been living in the pleasure of our culture for some time. We are seeing the results of God’s discipline on his church. Because we have forsaken “the fountain of living waters for broken cisterns who hold no water.”
I believe what you are saying will happen may come true however you are forgetting one thing…God. We are not too far from where the church was just before the first grate awakening and just before the Second Great awakening. It seems in history when society is at its darkest and the church is at its weakest there is a great spiritual awakening to revive the church and bring it back. I believe we will have one last great revival before the return of Christ. But I agree that if we do not see a spiritual renewal by Christ what you right may very well be the future. The church by itself is powerless against the cutlure but empowered by Christ the gates of Hell can not prevail against it. Thanks for the great article. Blessings
Kevin Humphrey
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Sharon,
I believe that you asked about how Evangelicals do science and art differently.
It is fairly hard to explain, but I will give it a try. (and hope that some others jump in to help me.)
Part of it is that the Evangelical culture that Michael and I know is very anti-education. Some even prefer their pastors to only be high school graduates. Their view of Genesis one is very strict, and woe to anyone who questions it. As a chemist, I can say that even the science done by the Creation Research Institute is not the best in the world. Part of being a good scientist is questioning and doubting until honest tests are done. Doubt and questions are strongly discouraged in that culture. The only way that I survived is by keeping my science and my faith in two separate boxes.
As far as art, the standard Evangelical view is limited. (again, the culture that Michael is in and that I left. Other areas may be more open.) There is almost a view that the body is bad, and so anything that the body enjoys is bad also. Probably not stated as bluntly, but you pick it up. Combine that with a definite anti-Catholicism, the pre-Reformation arts are automatically eliminated. Example, the Baptist church didn’t even have flowers for Easter because it was too Catholic. That is from the father-in-law of a Baptist pastor in about the 1930’s.
Does that help, or just add to the confusion?
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H. Lee,
I agree with you 100%. Many were “used and abused” by the GOP. That is why I am now an Independent. I know how you feel.
Many LDS (including myself) feel that way about the GOP and unfortunately the Evangelicals now as well. The LDS generally vote Republican and have stood by every Evangelical candidate (Bush, etc) until this last election when Romney ran. The many many Evangelicals turned on us and refused to vote for Romney, not because of his stance on issues (and he had a number of problems in my book), but because he was LDS. Because of the Evangelical refusal to even consider Romney because of his religion, they would not support Huckabee and never will.
In the end, it opened the eyes of MANY LDS that you have to turn to God and vote your beliefs. In the future, I believe (from talking to many LDS people) they will not vote for an Evangelical again.
I hope the GOP learns that they cannot “use and abuse” the people they need, and I hope the Evangelical leaders have learned the same thing.
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Hi: Read your piece on CSM. I liked it and have forwarded it to many. I’d like to read your thoughts on Seminary. I am recently withdrawing from Asbury Seminary for it emphasis on Wesleyan theology OVER that of the scriptures – and they are proud of it.
Kev
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I am not pessimistic at all. After all it is the last days and where sin abounds grace will abound even more for grace is greater than sin. The true church of Jesus Christ is not evangelicalism, pentecostalism, charismanianism or other liberalism. In these last days the true church of Jesus Christ called the redeemed will arise and shine. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken in these last days……….
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Excellent post. I’m not getting into all the discussion, but I did want to commend you on the post and congratulate you on the overwhelming exposure you’ve received today.
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Another reason there will be a “collapse” (more like a “correction”) with evangelical Christian culture in America: As always – uptight pastors who take themselves so damn seriously that they alienate, condemn, and push members out of not only their church, but out of a life of faith altogether.
You want to see the worst enemy of Christianity? It’s in the church leaderships. For every good pastor, there is a sincere, God-fearing, complete jerk who will ruin the flock and embitter the church and bring drama, infighting, and needless BS to a life of faith. A cyclical correction is inevitable.
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Very interesting piece, Michael. It kind of distills what you’ve been saying at this blog for some time now.
IMO, Evangelical Christianity in recent years was practically an arm of the Republican Party, and is now, as you suggested, suffering the consequences of trying to serve both God and Mammon. The Republican Party used and abused this evangelical core, but IMNSHO actually held evangelicals in complete contempt. The party leaders would throw out the red meat — abortion and gay rights — at the conventions, to get this particular constituency fired up. Then after the election, no Republican would even touch legislation to ban Roe-vs-Wade, or to ban same-sex marriage. They wanted the evangelical votes, but knew that most of America would not stand for such legislation.
Perhaps now some evangelicals will get back to worshipping Jesus rather than the GOP. And lest you think I’m gloating — well, I am. But I come from a small mainline denomination — Episcopalian — that has its own very public problems, so I might gloat briefly but I have nothing to boast about.
On another topic, I have to smile at the folks here who think they’re being persecuted for being a Christian in America. I wonder how the house Christians of China would feel about such “persecution,” or the Christians in violently-Islamic cultures where non-Moslems can be killed almost with impunity. The so-called Third World Christians are the ones who will inherit, and raise up, the honorable banner of real Christianity — not we spoiled Americans who think we’re being persecuted if someone says “Holiday Greetings” instead of “Merry Christmas.”
On a personal note to you: Good on you, mate! You’ve got the Internet humming, and with some thought-provoking stuff. I’m glad to be able to say I knew you when…
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I got lost when it turned into an argument about drunken college orgies. Are people seriously arguing that didn’t happen? Did you just not get invited? I’m sorry you missed it!
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Glad I found your provocative article on drudge or I would not have known about your blog. I feel your general argument is probably correct. This from a former evangelical preacher who found a home in the catholic church about 10 years ago.
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This was a very well written article and I have been seeing the decline in many of the Evangelical churches recently around my area. Some are growing, but many are shrinking or going away completely.
Robert Williams (@6:34PM) mentioned the hate and intolerance that Evangelical churches preach today. In my area there are a couple that do this alot. We have friends that used to belong to the largest Evangelical church out here and they left it because of the hate they teach (actually TEACH in classes!) against my religion. I am LDS (also known as Mormon). This Evangelical Church has classes on how to “attack” Mormons. This mostly goes towards verbal, but there have been cases of tossing red Slurpee’s on our missionaires as they ride their bikes, pushing them physically around, and in one case running their bikes off the road with their car. Our friends have known us for years and they left because they could not see the “Christian” behaviour in what their church members were doing. It is sad.
Another person asked how the LDS Church would do during this turning away from Christianity… Actually the wards (congregations) in our area are growing very well lately. I believe we will continue to grow.
According to the National Council of Churches 2009 Yearbook, most of the Christian Churches in America and Canada are having big problems with membership retention. Out of the top 25 churches, only 4 grew last year: LDS (Ranked 4), Assemblies of God (Ranked 10), Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ranked 23), and Church of God (Ranked 25). [http://www.ncccusa.org/news/090130yearbook1.html]
Someone mentioned that our children do “Seminary”. This is true. My daughter just started. We get up at 5:30AM every school day and get her to the Church building by 6:00AM. She studies for 50 minutes and comes home (we home school). This is freely available to ALL children (Members or not) 14 years old (13 in the case of my daughter because of when her birthday is) until they graduate from High School. She is studying the D&C and Pearl of Great Price this year (two of our Scriptures). Next year she will be studying the Old Testament, then the New Testament, and then the Book of Mormon (one of our other Scriptures). She has Scriputre Mastery to do and has to find, memorize, understand, and learn to apply 100 Scriptures in her daily life. This has been an incredible activity for her to do in her life. I honestly believe Evangelical Churches would grow stronger if they implemented a similar program. She receives grades for her work and study, has home work, and this is taken into account if she wants to apply to Brigham Young University when she is old enough.
I honestly regret seeing the attendance numbers for most of the other Christian Churches falling. Everyone needs to find Christ in their lives! It is true, I think it would be better for them to find it in the LDS Church, but if not in our Church then they need to find Christ in another Church. Christ is the only way to be saved. Everyone needs to know Him. Everyone needs to follow Him. Everyone needs to take on His name and make Him a part of their lives. I know my family has. We have daily Scripture study and discussions. We learn about Him from the Scriptures (Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and D&C/Pearl of Great Price), as well as listening to His living Prophets on the Earth at this time.
I know some people on here will be mad at me for posting what I have. I do not want to make anyone mad. I just thought I would share my experiences and beliefs on why the Evangelical Churches are shrinking (lack of retention) and one way they can help to improve their retention.
May Jesus Christ bless you with greater understanding of his Gospel.
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WOW! I am truly saddened by this article but can see exactly where you are coming from. I am a devout Roman Catholic and can honestly say that the Church has done a great job in defending the core moral beliefs that all Chrisitans share wether it be Catholic or Protestant or Non-Denominational (self started) Churches. Gay Marriage, Abortion, Pornography, Euthanasia etc…are plaguing this country to know end. The Catholic Church stands up and takes it to the Liberals and Relativists, with a staunch anti campaign, but if not for the help of Protestan Christians it makes the battle that much harder on the Church. God never intended for division in Christianity but we as a people managed to take it there. I see Christians uniting in the effort to stop the terrible sins that plague the country and the world. It really is a beautiful thing and for Evangelical Christianity to throw in the towel at this point is not fair, Evangelicals have the fervor and eloquent speaking power to help out all the other Churches in this battle.
I never thought I could or would respect the Morman Religion but seeing their efforts when it came to Prop 8 made me have faith that Jesus wants us all together to fight the evils of this world.
Just some thoughts from a Roman Catholic.
God Bless.
Steve
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Good commentary. I saw the hand-writing on the wall some time ago. The consumer-oriented, pop-driven, microwave Christianity in which I felt I was more often watching a stage show rather than going to worship eventually propelled me into the arms of the Catholic Church. After reading the early Church Fathers (e.g., Ignatius, Augustine, Irenaeus, etc.) and the Catechism, after researching church authority, the Sacraments and above all the Eucharist (i.e., the Lord’s Supper to non-Catholics), I finally came to the realization that “Rome is Homeâ€. There is indeed a persecution coming. It will affect all who call themselves Christian (Catholic & non-Catholic alike). This has been prophesied by many Catholic saints down through the last few centuries. I recommend that readers learn about the visions at Garabandal in the 1960’s. The seers, young girls at the time, are around 60 years old now. The Warning & The Miracle will occur, but first things will get very bad. And then comes the (conditional) Chastisment. In order to survive, the sons & daughter of the “Reformation†will finally return to Rome, and the Orthodox will reunite with the Catholic. There is one Church, and it will be so.
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I like the article and I’m glad you got the exposure you have. I think that some of your points were oversimplified, but this may be necessary to be an entry-point into the more complex issues within evangelicalism. I’ll be quoting your article.
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Good commentary. I saw the hand-writing on the wall some time ago. The consumer-oriented, pop-driven, microwave Christianity in which I felt I was more often watching a stage show rather than going to worship eventually propelled me into the arms of the Catholic Church. After reading the early Church Fathers (e.g., Ignatius, Augustine, Irenaeus, etc.) and the Catechism, after researching church authority, the Sacraments and above all the Eucharist (i.e., the Lord’s Supper to non-Catholics), I finally came to the realization that “Rome is Home”. There is indeed a persecution coming. It will affect all who call themselves Christian (Catholic & non-Catholic alike). This has been prophesied by many Catholic saints down through the last few centuries. I recommend that readers learn about the visions at Garabandal in the 1960’s. The seers, young girls at the time, are around 60 years old now. The Warning & The Miracle will occur, but first things will get very bad. And then comes the (conditional) Chastisment. In order to survives, the sons & daughter of the “Reformation” will finally return to Rome, and the Orthodox will reunite with the Catholic. The is one Church, and it will be so.
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No doubt that the spiritual world will be shaken, and with the increasing crime in the churches a large group of faithful Christians will “come out” and be separate in harmony with Bible prophecy. (Revelation 18)
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Anna A
I do think that you should realize that Evangelicals (whom Michael is talking about) have a much different view of science and the arts than other branches of Christianity, like the Orthodox or Catholicism.
Anna, would you consider expanding on this a little? I would find it helpful.
thank you
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Jesus saved his harshest criticism for the hypocrisy of the scribes and elders of the Jewish religion of his time. A church cannot preach hate and intolerance, as the Evangelicans do today, and still remain a creditable organization. The Evangelical churches’ influence will decline, but the religion itself will remain, as does virtually every organized religion for the past 3000 years. What will cause Evangelical’s decline is what’s causing it today: It’s inexorable movement away from the true teachings of Jesus Christ, i.e., compassion, forgiveness and love.
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Frankly, I surprised it’s taken this long for your renown to increase. You’ve been the most important voice in the Christian blogosphere for several years already and, goodness, you were already famous to us rubes. 🙂
Now that agents and such are beating down your door (again), will you finally write that freakin’ book?
—
On the decline of the megas:
Other research (Morgenthaler’s bombshell that wasn’t last year, etc.) has already shown the megas are just trading attenders every 4-6 years anyway. It’s the same people just moving to the better show.
There is no future there unless they will continue down the Osteen path, diluting and diluting until nothing of the gospel is left except some line in a puppet show in Kidz Zone or whatever.
Other mega-pastors are waking up, but I think that whole “two masters” business is gonna cause them many sleepless nights.
—
Congrats, iMonk. You deserve it.
Well, not the headaches. But you know what I mean.
Blessings.
Stay golden, Ponyboy.
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whoa imonk – post explosion!
This wins comment of the day for me:
“Actually in my experience, Christian bands *all* rip off Matchbox 20. Which explains *everything* about its awfulness.”
Thanks J.
CCM = music without the art part.
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I haven’t read this thread, but I just wanted to pop in and offer a hearty congratulations! That article is getting a lot of run in a lot of very big places – well done Michael!
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If I believe that the Harvester is in control (which I do), and I believe that the field is rapidly being uprooted (which I also do), then I am forced to accept that the crop was largely one of tares. I should rejoice at their removal. That’s what I tell myself when I get too broken-hearted over the decline of believers.
Whatever is going on, reading some of these comments helps me understand how it’s happening, if not why. In one of the side discussions, one person suggested to the others that they put aside their differences (read: raison d’etre denominations) and work together. I was stumped at how that might happen, or if it even should.
We Christians better learn to take that salt-of-the-earth, light-in-the-darkness business seriously. A bland gloom gathers.
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There isn’t a thing wrong with a little house-cleaning.
“The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” Matthew 7:13
“Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven. Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands. They stand this day according to Your ordinances, For all things are Your servants.” Psalm 119:89-91
“For you have been born again, not by a seed that perishes but by one that cannot perish-by the living and everlasting word of God. For “All human life is like grass, and all its glory is like a flower in the grass. The grass dries up and the flower drops off, but the word of the Lord lasts forever.” Now this word is the good news that was announced to you.” I Peter 1:23-25
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Andy,
I can’t argue philosophy with anyone, so I’m not touching Intelligent Design. But, I can tell you honestly that I am a decent polymer chemist and I have never, never had to use any thing connected with the orgins of life in my work. (and I have been studying or working as a chemist for over 25 years.)
As far as Christian music, I prefer the old time stuff; the older gospel music or Gregorian chant.
I do think that you should realize that Evangelicals (whom Michael is talking about) have a much different view of science and the arts than other branches of Christianity, like the Orthodox or Catholicism.
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Based on the Word of God (The Bible) this falling away must happen, read
2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV
I believe this Godless generation we now live in with the added strain we are currently experiencing due to the financial Melt Down many so called Christians will depart.
In Prophesy – God foretelling Future events.
1. Israel has been restored as a nation May 14 1948
2. The Jews have Jerusalem in there control 6 day war 1967.
These 2 major prophesy’s, were the catalyst that started the count down too the End of Day’s and it will not be stopped. Study and you will find even more information; it will make the hair stand upon the back of your neck to learn what is coming upon mankind from God Almighty. Like St. Paul said, for a Christian it’s like a race keeping your eye’s on the goal but the victory is crossing the finish line. Maranatha!
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I honestly don’t know what Evangelical Christians believe in. From the outside, all I can tell is that they support wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have killed tens of thousands of people; they preach a ‘prosperity theology’ that ignores Christian ideals of frugality, charity, and simplicity; and they want to enforce a state religion that the largely Protestant founders of this country fought so hard to avoid.
Evangelical Christians are certainly not the first to indulge in the cocktail of political power, economics, and jingoism. I think Rev. Spencer put it best in suggesting that a religion may have become a cause.
Mr. Hazlett may consider that this is not just a Catholic problem– consider the support that 20th Soto Zen Buddhist leaders gave to Japanese military imperialism, or the support that some American Protestant leaders gave to the KKK. Perhaps we could all draw lessons rather than swords.
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*It’s kids being asked to simulate orgasms to loosen up for a class exercise.*
Oh and out of curiosity: What was the class and what was the exercise? Sounds like something to get people all giggly for a theater arts course on physical comedy or something.
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*as long as our christain bands continue to rip off secular bands and write over them with christian lyrics we will not be good at arts*
Actually in my experience, Christian bands *all* rip off Matchbox 20. Which explains *everything* about its awfulness.
Now, if you tried to rip off Gnarls Barkeley and Dangermouse, maybe you’d be on to something.
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White people are going to stop going to church. So what? America is turning more colorful, and many of these groups are very religious.
As white ethic groups get marginalized over the next few decades, we’ll see the rise of ethnically based churches in white communities. They’ll be strong, theologically potent, and full of mission. So there’s hope, especially for kids a couple of generations later in the mountains.
Time to look beyond our whitewashed walls in America.
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*It’s 17-year olds having sex with strangers during drunken orgies.*
Doubt it actually happened. “Sex with strangers during drunken orgies” is the original scare line. The Hebrews peddled it (no, the Canaanites weren’t orgy people; they had the exact same holiness code as the Hebrews so wouldn’t everyone in the supposed orgies need to be stoned right afterward).
*It’s kids being asked to simulate orgasms to loosen up for a class exercise.*
Again, I doubt it actually happened. And if so, so what? OH NOES *simulated* orgasms!
*It’s a culture where a prominent theme of Valentine’s Day celebrations is “please don’t rape whoever you’re with.â€*
That’s just weird. Probably more a question of aesthetics than ethics, but that aside: How is opposition to rape “debauched”?
*How did we get to a place where the best and brightest have to be reminded not to rape each other?*
I doubt they really do. It’s probably more of a statement of feminist principle that an effort to combat an actual, widespread social ill. But so what if they are being so reminded? Rape itself is not, properly speaking, debauchery, it’s brutality.
*Debauched used to mean stuff like that.*
So, what you have is:
1.) Almost certainly spurious claims of “orgies”
2.) *Simulated* orgasms
3.) Opposition to an act of brutality
So yeah: Color me NOT panicked.
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The Catholic Church knows all about surviving and is actively managed for the future. They are the professionals. They have learned a lot in 700+ years.
Their priest don’t get married and do not accumulate wealth (like the high profile evangelical pastors in the US that gets passed to children). The CC simply outlast the new competitors in every generation. The church accumulates the wealth and influence – check out the Vatican – they even have their own country.
They don’t fight silly loser battles against science like the fundementalists here do with creationism (they figured out that with heliocentrism – that one guy Galieo proved them wrong – and they never got caught like that again!)
Trendy US evangelicals in comparison are dominated by one-off ministries led by personalities (Robertson, Falwell, Haggard) that compete for the finite Sunday hours and donations $. They are prone to peaking and overreach – they can’t manage scale like the Catholic church – no priest is bigger than the church – they make sure of that – they promote them to Bishop and Cardinal!
Many super star pastors get drowned in scandels.
Personally, I was raised a Cathloic and went out the door at 13 never to return other than for family obigations with my parents (out of respect).
I actually looked at various evangelical type churches and never went back to any of them after one visit. Finally I figured out that I never really bought the God concept. There is NO evidence for it – any of it – its just faith in some unprovable thing. The fact that it takes an endless multimedia campiagn and a church on evey corner to endlessly reinforce it is very revealing.
God gould just write his name on the moon and end the mystery. Why would a ll powerful God of the universe worry about some lame species of bipeds on rock going around a little start. I did not need to be told twice about gravity or the fact that earh goes around the sun. By 25 I just stopped thinking much about it.
I ended up marrying outside of western christianity to a Japanese and raised 3 children without ever going to church with them or really discussing faith. My kids two are now out of college and are independent and happy. They are basically agnostic and free to do what they want. Thus far, they have not paid much attention to the sea of religiousity around them. You’d have a hell of time telling them about a talking snake and adam and eve. Don’t even bring up Noah and the boat.
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Folks, it doesn’t matter if evangelical churches are showing incremental growth at the moment. Their failure to hold onto the young people means that these huge megachurches will be warehouses in 20 years. Until the evangelical megachurches get serious about a creed, music, sacraments, and theology, they have nothing to offer but self-help, a big show, a charming preacher, and a cup of Starbucks. They simply do not have what it will take to stand our ground as anti-Christianity grows in this culture.
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One more thought: all you doubters, take a look at Europe. America is following many of the same trends that contributed to “post-Christian” Europe. I believe that Christianity will thrive in that environment, but it won’t look like what we’re used to seeing.
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As a long-time reader of Rev. Spencer’s musings here and elsewhere, I’m glad that his thoughts were featured in the CSM. If I had to boil down what Michael is saying it would be this:
The Evangelical Church must stop being what it is not, start being what it is, and if it has forgotten, then relearn it, quickly, or sink into an inevitable decline of irrelevance.
The proclamation of ancient truths can be done in relevant ways without allowing those truths to be so covered over in attempts to make them conform to contemporary values.
Not to put too fine a point on the crisis in much of American protestantism/evangelicalism, and I would certainly include my own denomination in this critique, and to borrow from a phrase used successfully in the early 1990s to keep a political campaign “on focus and on message”:
“It’s the Gospel, stupid.”
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People pitching their solutions are definitely missing the point. Nobody — no group, no denomination, nobody — has all the answers. Not the RCC or OCA, not the atheists, nobody. Losing sight of the Main Thing is a huge piece of what’s been happening for decades, but a lot of people were never interested in more than a social support system in the first place, so even a recovery of the Gospel won’t restore the numbers.
Good.
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@Anna A
as long as we insist on Intelligent Design we will not be good at Science
as long as our christain bands continue to rip off secular bands and write over them with christian lyrics we will not be good at arts
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Massimo:
I just talked about this on the radio.
1. I didn’t say people would stop becoming evangelicals. That registers. But when they stop….that’s harder to measure.
2. What they reported is probably people moving from “no church” to “megachurch.” Megas generally don’t do membership. So you are “attending” a church now and therefore are an evangelical. The survey showed a significant increase in mega growth. Amen.
3. But I am predicting that mega growth will become mega decline rapidly. Within 20 years. And I predict half the megas off the radar in 3 generations.
4. What happens in many situations is the mega grows, but the community around it has less church attendance because small churches die. Happens all the time.
5. Compared to population, we are getting smaller.
peace
ms
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WilliamofObergurleyberg,
I am a conservative evangelical from Alabama and I am not foaming at the mouth ready to do bodily harm to those who don’t agree with me. I am sorry that has been your experience with Alabama evangelicals. Most of your observations are right on though, but there really are sincere loving Christian evangelicals, even in Alabama.
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Sorry you got all the nutcases on here. I liked the article. I linked it on my blog and have been getting some similar misinterpretations, though thankfully much fewer in number.
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Yesterday, ABC World News reported about America becoming less religious. The only group they said that was growing was the Evangelical (from 5% to 11% if I remember correctly). What do you make of that?
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Erica,
With regard to home schooling, may I suggest that if your aim is raise a child armed to carry on Christian values and impart them to others, that hiding her away from the fray in her developmental years may not be the best strategy?
Jesus broke bread with publicans and sinners, after all. Kept himself right in the thick of things. Of course, this will mean more work on your part as a parent to help her interpret what she sees go on around her, but if you succeed, she’ll be better able to communicate with those who don’t necessarily share your beliefs, which she will have to do in order to evangelize, yes?
So many have strange notions about what goes on in public schools. When I taught, I had a young man come in one day sporting a tee shirt that read “In the public schools, PRAY is a four-letter word.”
I asked him what point he was trying to make, and he said, belligerently, that he wasn’t allowed to pray in school.
“That’s not correct,” I said. “You can pray all you want. What you can’t do, however, is disrupt others with it. I, as a teacher and state employeee, am not allowed to impose a prayer on a class as it might be seen as advocating a state religion.”
I then offered to let him come down to my room, kneel and pray whenever he felt the need and suggested, based on his midterm grade, that that was about the only way he’d get a mark higher than a “D” out of me that semester. 😉
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My thoughts are that the only way the Evengelicals will diminish is if we conform to the world. Many denominations are falling into the trap of the devil by embracing the world view. The very fact that we will stand by the Bible and every word in it, will give disillusioned people a place to come when the system fails them. Remember, even if the world hates us for telling the truth in love, we will be the light on the hill for many people.
Come Lord Jesus
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Very well written article! Listen, I don’t want to start a big thing, just leave a suggestion. Orthodox Christianity. Don’t believe all the junk you see on most evangelical and protestant sites about it. You seem like an independent thinker, so you might start here: http://www.oca.org/
I always hate to post stuff online because it turns into some kind of big debate, or someone takes what I say out of context, bring up some stupid YouTube vid a crazy whacko made about Orthodox Christians being the spawn of the devil, or something stupid like that. Anyway, good luck, and God bless!
Scott
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This is a quite interesting prediction. I have somewhat felt this way about the church in America for quite sometime now but I still beleive in the church either way. The church itself will go back to its original form wich was a total counterculture existing beneath the empire. The New Testament church will re-emerge and whatever else that entails. These things are fun to think about and write about but in reality hold little to no relevence to the true beleiver who will continue to serve Christ in life or in death weather popular or not.
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Cindy,
You mentioned your concern about Bible study being dumbed down. You are right about that. I have also observed the same thing about chemistry ( the difference between two editions of the same textbook was horrifying) and theology. A friend confirmed that it was the same thing for history, which is her love.
We do need to develop ways that Christians are able to be good at all the sciences, all the arts, all of life. (Depending upon their own desires, of course.)
I believe that it honors God to be good at what you do, no matter if it is chemistry, or preaching, or teaching English.
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@ William of Obergurleyberg: Every time we see an evangelical down here in Alabama (which, as you might guess, is sorta constantly) they’re likely to be foaming at the mouth, ready to do bodily harm in the Name Of Christ just because someone doesn’t believe the way they do, might have an alternate life style, vote Democrat, believe that unions are good for the common man, etc…pick your heresy.
That reminds me of a story I once read about how one of our most lauded home-grown authors, Margaret Atwood, wrote The Handmaid’s Tale after an experience she had in 1985 visiting a friend of hers who was an English Professor at the University of Alabama. You can guess at what that novel was about…
I love my fellow man but, whew!, most of you are WAY hard to swallow! Lot of evangelizing going on that ain’t a good thing for anybody. Makes one wonder just who’s pulling the strings.
If you read more of the iMonk’s posts (and the posts of many of us who comment here who have blogs ourselves) you’ll see that there are a lot of us who truly understand why you feel what it is you feel, and hurt deeply from the effect it’s had on the rest of the church. If there is one thing I hope you’ll learn from us, it’s that we’re not your enemies – far from it, in fact.
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Wow, Michael — a link on the Drudge report to an article of yours published in the Christian Science Monitor can only mean you are now an internet star of the first magnitude! So now I can say, “I was an iMonk reader before reading iMonk was cool.”
Congratulations (I think).
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i can absolutely see mr. spencers point.many christians such as myself see our country speeding towards an immoral hell. all the while, our elected “christian” leaders stomp on the bible and the constitution. political correctness rules the day and the faithful are pushed further underground more everyday. in most cases, tolerance has given way to acceptance.
those like myself feel disheartened with the church, no matter the denomination. we live our lives according to the word, and are laughed at and called a variety of insulting names. those who live in sin are trumpeted and praised.and quite frankly, i (we)am (are) tired of it.
so, yes, i can see these predictions coming about. i can also see splinter groups popping up. much like has happened with islam. perhaps the two will join together at some point. after all, the basic principles are the same.
“We need new evangelicalism that learns from the past and listens more carefully to what God says about being His people in the midst of a powerful, idolatrous culture.”
amen mr. spencer, amen.
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I would only state that one thing missing from your essay is that many, especially those disillusioned with the emergent and megachurch scene, may actually find themselves embracing a more Reformed structure and not necessarily a RCC one. Much of the Pastorate of some smaller Reformed denominations (OPC, RCUS, CRE, URC) are actually MUCH younger than those in their mainline counterparts.
I found much of the analysis spot on, but I don’t find it alarming or sad in any way. Maybe that’s just the optimistic postmill in me talking. One line I use constantly in teaching is that the Church does not need a revival, but rather a reformation!
I will check back…
David
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J: Har, har. Dancing, syncopated beat, wearing pants. Good thing you’re not a condescending . . .
It’s 17-year olds having sex with strangers during drunken orgies. It’s kids being asked to simulate orgasms to loosen up for a class exercise. It’s a culture where a prominent theme of Valentine’s Day celebrations is “please don’t rape whoever you’re with.” How did we get to a place where the best and brightest have to be reminded not to rape each other?
Debauched used to mean stuff like that.
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I can tell you with some confidence how Orthodox Christiantiy will respond to any hypothetical collapse of evangelical Christianity. They (or rather, the new converts) will publish a book or two–which evangelicals will not read, because you guys don’t read much anyway (wink wink)–but otherwise do absolutely nothing.
During the 1960’s there was some warming between Orthodox and Anglicanism, whose rank-and-file adherents tended simply not to notice one another’s denominations. That faltered over the issue of women priests, and could not probably be revived. (Anglicanism is now on the verge of splitting over the gay issue.) I’ve often found it odd that so many Anglicans have been “jumping ship” for Catholicism, when Orthodoxy might honestly suit them better. (No pope, so no threat of changes from liberal pope.)
A few conservative Protestant churches have migrated to Orthodoxy (and inevitably, written books!)–mainly, it seems, out of a sense that Orthodoxy represents the historic church. I personally think the claim is overblown, but that the influence of Orthodox tradition (as opposed to its wretched politics) could only be a good thing.
Think about it–which do you want your children reading, “The Way of a Pilgrim” or “The Prayer of Jabaz”? The first is like a gateway drug to the Philokalia and patristics in general, the second is…well just superstitious pablum, as far as I can see. I’m sorry to say that most evangelical publications (and church activities) strike me as kind of retarded. (Not your blog though, which is excellent!)
Not that I have any intention of telling other people what religion they should be…
I wonder how Mormon and New Age type churches will fare? Sectarian groups like the JW’s…? Of course some of the “megachurches” might be classified here…
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I find your thoughts interesting, though I’m not sure what we’re really supposed to do about it. Not that you are suggesting that anything can be done.
But from my personal experience, I’m not sure what I could do differently. I’m a self-described Evangelical Christian. I was raised in the Pentecostal church and now attend a Bible-teaching Calvary Chapel. I refuse to put my children in public schools, and so have decided to homeschool. My convictions about my faith and my understanding of the foundations of this country compel me to fight for a limited government. I believe that we are to share the love of Jesus, but also His message of sin and sacrifice.
As I read your article, I wonder if you think I should not be involved in politics. Is that not my right as a citizen? Even my duty? To inform my elected leaders of my desires and concerns? If having a political opinion is destroying the Evangelicals, then perhaps America is not the country it once was.
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Gratz on the publicity IM. Hope the servers can keep up 🙂
Just look at all the partisan bickering already though. Kinda proves a point, don’t it?
One of these days… One of these days perhaps we can all learn to just hold hands and sing “The Church’s One Foundation…”
Provided there are enough of us who have actually heard it somewhere before…
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I discovered your site after reading your piece at CSM which, I’ve found, is a good, even handed place for news and commentary. I read your editorial and found it well written and cogent and enjoyed the reading.
Short take on my thinking concerning it; Man, I hope you’re right.
Longer take on my thinking; Many of us, over here just a little bit to the left of where most of you are, view your attempts to integrate your beliefs into our government with a great deal of fear and won’t be sorry to see you go (assuming that you are right in your prognostications).
As a died again born again (un)believer, I’ve never been able to get past what seems to be the obvious hypocrisy rampant in your ranks.
We (being human) understand and “get” what most of you refer to as “spirituality” and the feelings associated with being “convicted by the Holy Spirit” are not alien to us. We just recognize them by different names and, at least some of us, anyway, react to their presence by modifying our behavior. The vast majority of your “evangelicals” seem just to be power-hungry, political ideologues ready to invoke some invisible deity so as to “make clear the way” for Armageddon, the second coming, another tax cut or what ever.
Mostly, we see the evangelical movement as trying to pull off a poorly disguised power grab and attempting to homogenize the country into something they can control and be comfortable with. And it scares (literally, if you think about it a moment) the bejeezus out of us. I mean, who’d want to be part of a movement whose adherents display emotions and actions which are antithetical to the written word that they say they take so “literally”?
Every time we see an evangelical down here in Alabama (which, as you might guess, is sorta constantly) they’re likely to be foaming at the mouth, ready to do bodily harm in the Name Of Christ just because someone doesn’t believe the way they do, might have an alternate life style, vote Democrat, believe that unions are good for the common man, etc…pick your heresy.
I love my fellow man but, whew!, most of you are WAY hard to swallow! Lot of evangelizing going on that ain’t a good thing for anybody. Makes one wonder just who’s pulling the strings.
You say that the Super-Mega-Churches are going to make it through this next dinosaur extinction event. Again, I hope you’re right and, on this at least, I think you are because these farces are pure entertainment and, call him what you will, old Karl Marx hit the nail on the head with his maxim concerning opiates and the masses. I gotta have my MTV and a 2000 member per service Las Vegas extravaganza!! So much piety that you can cut it with a knife AND great music and dance routines. What’s not to love?
True Christianity seems to be a very personal thing, something for the believer and not for the infidel. You just don’t see it a lot.
The bleeding edge of evangelicalism ought to be what the infidel sees in the believer. Well, what we’ve seen just ain’t something we want any part of.
Evangelicalism, as I’ve seen it played out for the last 20 some-odd years, is purely bad theater and something that will not be missed.
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You have my attention!
As a Christian Sunday School teacher, I see an alarming lack of interest from professing Christians in learning or understanding the Word of God. It seems that so many want to be entertained.
Studying the Bible and learning what it really says is actually hard work. Unfortunately, too many want to be identified as a Chrisian, but put forth almost no effort. How can they be strong in the faith?
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Cynthia writes :
“The government is posing greater threats to the Body of Christ every day. “Obama plans to remove ‘conscience clause’ for health-care personnel†is typical of the headlines we are seeing these days that proclaim the frontal attack on Christians, as well as people of other faiths who honor life as a gift from God.”
The myth of Christian persecution in the US is one of the strangest things I’ve ever seen. In what way are Christians kept for worshiping as their conscience dictates?
The gray area is where their beliefs conflict with others’ constitutional rights. Muslims in Detroit were asking not to have to carry customers who have alcohol in their bags. We all have to make choices as to what God’s will would be in a given situation, and the government has to accomodate all and protect everyone’s rights at the same time.
While we can disagree where the line should be drawn, the idea that the government is launching an all out assault on Christianity… maybe we should all just take a breath and relax.
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Charles/Wes: Take that discussion elsewhere. I will not post it here.
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@J Let me guess: Flagrant, unabashed dancing? Music in syncopated beat? Women wearing pants?
No, even worse: it’s young men and young women being permitted to spend time in a room alone together! It’s mixed-race dating! Ahh!
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Dear Charles in CenCA,
Every single statement I make concerning Roman Catholicism is backed up by my research into Roman Catholicism based on actual dogmatic and theological statements made by the RCC.
When you dime me out like that in front of this audience you should have the intellectual honesty to expose my premise as faulty before so recklessly engaging in a tirade with words that lack Scriptural support.
Unless you use the standard of truth i.e. the Word of God to support your point you are no different than the kool aid drinking hope and change crowd that basis judgement on mere feelings, public approval, and poll numbers.
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*And what would pass for debauchery fifty years ago is commonplace, even supported, by the institution’s administration.*
Actually, I bet that it isn’t.
*It’s a very dark place (or light place, depending on your perspective).*
Let me guess: Flagrant, unabashed dancing? Music in syncopated beat? Women wearing pants?
Spare me.
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@Wes: Already we have a power play by a Catholic! I am utterly shocked. Once again, we see a common trait of a Catholic offering ‘Catholic’ leadership with zero evidence of an outward consistent pattern of Gospel behavior.
Sex scandals, greed, gargantuan wealth from art and the idolatrous selling of idols, pagan influence, changing the Ten Commandments, and the denigration of Christ under the supremacy of Mary. Is this to be the armor bearer of a revolution from darkness to light?
As a Catholic, I’ll say it, and in fact, I’ll be quite emphatic in saying it: The Catholic Church is flawed and imperfect. The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for, both to other Christians, and to non-Christians alike. It also shares the burden and the blame of this problem with all of Christendom in Western Society. I myself am not ashamed to say that I go to an Anglican Church where I greatly enjoy the very honest and earnest preaching, and the contemporary-ish music, when there’s a perfectly fine Catholic Church down the street.
Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system, what productive good is bashing Catholicism really going to do in addressing the problems that Michael and so many others here have so eloquently outlined? Is yelling at Catholics, calling them morally bankrupt apostates, going to combat the Cancer which is the Prosperity Gospel? Is touting claims about the insufficient Christianity of Catholics going to reverse the damage that the past thirty years of waging the Culture War have wrought on Christendom in North America? Will calling them and their clergy heretics give meaning to a generation of people who feel a sense of meaninglessness in the inexcusable and unavoidable hypocrisies they see in Evangelicalism today? Will it help to heal the divisions and brokenness I’ve seen in the posts and comments on this blog from Evangelicalism’s inability to deal with family pressures, economic hardship, and mental illness?
Okay, now I’ve gotten all that out of my system, and you’ve gotten it out of yours – why don’t we all — Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian, Anglican, Lutheran, Calvinist, Baptist and Pentacostal, etc.*** alike — roll up our sleeves and get to work together, to try to make things better? Let’s learn to get over ourselves together, and focus on what matters. I look forward to working with you Wes, not as a subordinate or as a superior, but as a Brother, and as a friend.
***Sorry if I missed anyone. I still love you anyway.
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*The government is posing greater threats to the Body of Christ every day.*
No it isn’t. Calm down. Eat a vegetable or drink some water or something.
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Rev. Rowland,
Thank you for your comment. We (my family) are “Out of Church Christians.” We have tried to find a church that “goes deep” spiritually. We’ve been discouraged by the entertainment offered–and little else–in today’s churches.
I was a 15 years old when I was Saved by His Grace. I couldn’t get enough of the bible studies and Sunday night series sermons. Why churches today think that “young people” are attracted to entertainment is beyone me! As a teen, I got enough entertainment outside of church. When I went to church I wanted to be fed scriptual meat.
We can’t find a traditional-style church that keeps politics out of the pulpit. We can’t find a church that feeds a steady, satisfying and nutritious diet of thoughtful, invigorating bible study and encourages its congregants to THINK.
I can’t help notice that the majority of American churches have dumbed-down Christianity–as if doing so makes it more appealing to the masses.
Currently, we’re meeting in homes of like-minded “unchurched” Christians. We love our meetings. We explore scripture, pray, fast, sing and worship. I’ll probably never go to a brick-and-mortar church again.
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Wes Hazlett writes:
Bobby Metzinger writes:
“An ecumenical council should be spearheaded by the Catholic bishops in the United States to address the worries of our protestant brothers and sisters and how we can stand together.â€
Already we have a power play by a Catholic! I am utterly shocked. Once again, we see a common trait of a Catholic offering ‘Catholic’ leadership with zero evidence of an outward consistent pattern of Gospel behavior.
————————————–
Ok, Wes, first of all, he who is without sin may cast the first stone. Second, I’m suggesting that there are in fact Catholics out there who don’t give a hoot about denomination or if someone prays harder or is more pious than someone else. The fact that we should find commonality is the main focus of what I suggested. If it is spearheaded by the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran church, fine with me! Let’s make sure this evangelical split or schism doesn’t take place for one reason — we want our brothers and sisters in Christ to reach eternal salvation! Politics aside, we should all re-affirm our commitment to Christ’s teaching.
We have all sinned, Wes, but that’s why we should be thrilled and on our knees thanking our Lord for his love and forgiveness!
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Don Gilles: See the ARIS study post, just below this one.
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To follow up on J’s comment, my daughter is at an “elite” institution in the northeast and there is almost no evangelical presence on campus. It is a spiritual wasteland populated by some very bright and engaging young people who haven’t got a clue about or interest in religious faith. Many “spiritual” people but just as many who couldn’t give a rip. And what would pass for debauchery fifty years ago is commonplace, even supported, by the institution’s administration.
These are tomorrow’s leaders.
It’s a very dark place (or light place, depending on your perspective).
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Shucks… branded ‘intolerant’ as well as a; bigot, racist, xenophobe, homophobe, anti-abortionist, now the clincher…’Common Reader’.
I promise to footnote you J at the first possible moment that I can insert that term into a relevant conversation that does not involve purple monkeys wearing tinfoil on their heads while singing ‘Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto’ under the surface of Pluto.
Oh great, no I am an enemy of PETA.
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I just read a synopsis of your article on Yahoo! news. I was wondering if there is a more scholarly version that includes, perhaps, trends in US evangelical worship over the past decade? There were a lot of predictions in the Yahoo! article, but no facts or insights to support them.
I find the predictions astonishing. I am not very religious (protestant family background) but i would like to learn more about these trends.
I have been saying for about 8 years that its been 2000 years and christians today bear a strong resemblance to the romans of 2000 years ago, we are not like the christians of 2000 years ago. We should be mindful of “the tyranny of the majority”, or we will enable radical fundamentalist religions to gain stature and increase membership worldwide.
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*In a new America where the President rules by clear policy that government is the new god of America…*
What was the H.R. or Senate Bill or Executive Order number of that “clear policy” again, Mr. Hazlett?
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The CSM version of these articles intrigued me very much, and brought me back to this site. Congratulations on a fine weblog and on a very well written series.
As a recovering former Evangelical Lutheran Church of America member whose finally embraced the skepticism and love of reason that I was apparently born with, I think you have overlooked a perhaps too obvious reason for the decline of the Evangelical movement. It’s so… evangelical.
Every major religion includes some injunction to “Go ye into all the world and preach my gospel…” In the same way that multi-level marketing scams have declined in popularity, and for the same reason that most people do not choose careers in sales, “winning souls for Christ” is ridiculously hard work, is often annoying to those whose souls one is attempting to save, and resented by those souls who have no evidence before them that, if they have a soul, it needs to be saved in the first place.
What would the Taliban or al Qaeda be without their rabid drive to convert the rest of the world by persuasion if possible, violence if not? – Nothing but privately pious, peaceful and primitive.
Likewise Christianity. To the extent that your treatise chides the overaggressiveness of Evangelical Christians in the realms of politics and public mores, I agree with you.
I simply don’t think you’ve discussed the wider issue as frankly as you might have.
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Lord A’mighty, just when I thought I’d run into a combox thread dealing with a serious Christian concern and found the posters largely charitable, along comes Mr. Hazlett and his antique luggage.
Whatever you believe was the import of Mr. Metzinger’s observation, you cannot believe that provides you with the impetus and self-approbated righteous indignation to smear the thread with the calumny and gross insults and misunderstandings you cling to about Catholic ecclesiology, liturgy and theology, Mr. Hazlett. My Christian, Catholic heart prays for your enlightenment to gospels truths, sir. You can rake the muck of scandalous media headlines of this or any other bygone era to your satisfaction, but you will thus prevent yourself from sharing witness and wisdom that has moved from Christ through Peter down to your Orthodox or Catholic neighbors for 2 millenia, by the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God.
We are all members of the suffering Church and the Church militant. And may we all, one day, be one.
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I think J is right — go to any large state university and look at where the kids come from. They are the what is going to be the professional class, and I bet not 10% (and that is likely very generous) is homeschooled or comes from a private Christian academy…
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I was also linked to your excerpts at CSM via Drudge. Fine wordsmithing and interesting insights. I particularly liked “…the landscape of megachurch vacuity….” and I might add “bland landscape.”
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Oh and I forgot to mention me: We plan to start trying in earnest during our trip to Tokyo this spring, merely for the perverse pleasure of telling our future offspring they can get a tattoo saying “Made in Japan”.
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And what’s this delusion that atheists don’t have children? Since we’re accepting anecdote as fact (also known as “religion”), let me say I’M the one “not seeing it”. Seems like every atheist and ex-Christian mom we hang out with has a wee mammal on her knee and every freethinkin’ dad has got a bjorn sling around his back.
Face it, Common Reader: You’re not going to breed us out. There are a heck of a lot fewer Duggar families on your side than you think.
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“J”: Thanks for dropping the language so I could print your comments. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
The tiny sliver of Christian schoolers making it into the academic and scientific world ought to convince someone that there is something wrong with us on these issues. But we are the fish in the fishbowl. What world? Where?
I am involved in Christian ed and the issue of the sciences is the elephant in the room.
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@J
Can you site any facts? Can you show any studies where public education has done more to improve underprivledged students more than homeschooling? Please you facts and reasons.
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Your comment near the end of your article is a clarion call to ecumenism.
“…the movement to create a new evangelicalism that learns from the past and listens more carefully …”
Evangelicalism will fail because it is not rooted physically to Jesus Christ, the physical manifestation of the Almighty.
Evangelicalism ignored Christ’s teaching that we are to “build on the rock and the storms will have no effect.” That is why it is failing.
New this and new that are all doomed to fail. The only sure path is through Catholicism.
“without me you can do nothing”
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*It doesn’t matter what the numbers are – the people who got the superior education will be the ones doing the professional and bureaucratic work. They will have more prestige and set the tone for people wanting to improve themselves. They will be overwhelmingly the products of Catholic schools, Christian academies, and homeschooling – and if we continue having affirmative action this will be even more true, because public school fails black and Latino children the worst.*
This is the funniest thing I have ever read a–I assume–adult human being say.
I would need more fingers and toes than I now possess to count off the number of scientists and engineers I know who are out-and-out atheists. And when I say “I know” I don’t mean “and I’ve read their books”, I mean I know them personally because I work at a college of engineering. Just to be going on with, there’s my atheist wife, PhD in polymer engineering. Product of the public school system.
Oh and the ones who aren’t atheists? They’re Hindus and Muslims from South Asia and the Middle East. Or they’re Buddhist/Confucianists from South Korea. Or Buddhists/Shinto from Japan.
The products of Christian academies don’t generally get admission as undergraduates here, much less become people capable of “doing the professional and bureaucratic work”.
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The government is posing greater threats to the Body of Christ every day. “Obama plans to remove ‘conscience clause’ for health-care personnel” is typical of the headlines we are seeing these days that proclaim the frontal attack on Christians, as well as people of other faiths who honor life as a gift from God.
Great posts here, will defintely add to my blog roll. http://simmerings.blogspot.com/
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*Can you explain to me how Christian schools are going to lose status when public education is failing?*
It’s not failing. It’s fine.
*It’s pretty observable that the next generation of competent workers is coming out of homeschooling and private Christian schools.*
No it isn’t.
*It’s also impossible to ignore that public education is grossly inferior in educating disadvantaged children.*
Actually it’s pretty easily possible to ignore it, given that it isn’t true.
*And then there’s demographics which you seem to be ignoring completely – people who are anti-Christian in the way you describe just don’t have children.*
Oh yes they/we do!
*So we’re going to have a generation where the bulk of the middle class was educated in Christian institutions*
No we aren’t.
*and the bulk of the population as a whole comes from Christian homes.*
No we won’t.
*And these people are going to help dismantle evangelicalism? Yeah I’m not seeing it.*
No, I’m not surprised.
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JAS,
Have you read anything by Mark Noll, such as “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind”? He’s of a similar opinion as you.
I can verify what you are saying, just compare the education of Catholic Deacons and Baptist Deacons.
I do find the situation very sad.
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Bobby Metzinger writes:
“An ecumenical council should be spearheaded by the Catholic bishops in the United States to address the worries of our protestant brothers and sisters and how we can stand together.”
Already we have a power play by a Catholic! I am utterly shocked. Once again, we see a common trait of a Catholic offering ‘Catholic’ leadership with zero evidence of an outward consistent pattern of Gospel behavior.
Sex scandals, greed, gargantuan wealth from art and the idolatrous selling of idols, pagan influence, changing the Ten Commandments, and the denigration of Christ under the supremacy of Mary. Is this to be the armor bearer of a revolution from darkness to light?
We are toast as a Country if we continue to convolute the Gospel of Christ only to perch up the power of man and our own synthetic religious institutions as some vicarious way to God and His grace.
You Sir have to climb to the summit of this prolific article before you entrench unmerited Catholic leadership at the vanguard of America’s ‘hopeful salvation’. What is happening to America is not rooted in flesh and blood and already flesh and blood power plays are taking root.
Have we not learned that the way that seems right to us only lead to destruction?
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Common Reader,
“It doesn’t matter what the numbers are – the people who got the superior education will be the ones doing the professional and bureaucratic work.”
I’m not sure where you live, but go to any of the major metropolitan areas in the U.S. and check out the demographics of highly educated and highly skilled workers; or just open the phone book and take a look under Physicians. You’ll find that these positions are being filled, not by Christian school graduates, but by highly educated immigrants… which is just another piece to the puzzle of that this survey points to.
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There has been a growing movement over the last decade of people who love Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as Lord and Savior who no longer attend ANY church.
Out of Church Christians have been growing steadily due to the abuses and power-plays of man inside the brick-and-mortar church organizations. While some may opt for home-church settings, many more are going it alone with their families.
It is hard to justify giving money to a building that runs a great ‘show’ but doesn’t feed, clothe, educate, or provide transformative moments for those who need it.
We unplugged from Church structure over a year ago, and are meeting with a group of like-minded fellow-travelers, seeking God and sharing Christ whenever and wherever we can.
Most of the out-of-church Christians I’ve met are some of the most theologically-grounded, and passionate followers of Christ I’ve come across.
I think the coming collapse you describe will only accelerate such a trend.
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Philippians 1:28,29 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation,and that from God. For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…
1Peter 4:1,2 …since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
The Bible is full of examples of how God allows the persecution of His people to spread the Gospel and grow His body. Look to China for a modern example of this at work.
Blessings,
matthew
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I look forward to the time when religion again refers to a person’s personal relationship with their God and gets out of the public arena. If someone lives a good, loving life, people will notice and that’s all the witness anyone needs.
Went to Christian schools and public. Christian and home schools benefit from the lower class size and individual attention. Public schools generally have a better curriculum and wider range of subjects. My personal experience, I’m sure others vary.
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I linked to your article through Yahoo! news. Thank you. You have articulated what I have been feeling for quite a long time. I participated in the Evangelism Explosion program in the early to mid-80’s and have been estranged from the church for more than a decade. The Church of my youth, which taught me forgiveness, compassion, understanding, and spreading the Gospel of Jesus by allowing a Christ-filled life to lead by example is no longer. Witnessing in order to bring new Christians into to the fold for no gain but for the sole purpose of their benefit to be able experience the wondrous grace of God has lost its direction. As I meet many Christians and watch them publicly, particularly this last year, I see only self-righteous indignation, hatred and political motivation. I see no evidence of a Christ-lead life. Quite frankly, I hope you may be right. Those real Christians left may have to start anew. But hey, twelve did in the beginning.
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Evangelicals are going to be just fine. We are on the brink of rebirth not collapse. Or, perhapse, reformation instead of collapse. I am non-denominational. Our church has, in four years, grown from a house to roughly 700 members every Sunday. Hardly a 50% collapse. I live in a college town.
We have thriving small group system.
I am part of the intercessory team, and we pray each Sunday that God’s will would be done in our service.
I and another member have just started reading AW Tozer’s Knowledge of the Holy. AWESOME. Hopefully it will become a Sunday school class.
Finally, evangelicasl (at least non-denom) derive their strength and vitality from a personal relationship with God. When we truly impact society it is not through a centralized church system, but through many individual doing their best to lead a life pleasing to God. Thus, certain trends and “lack of leadership†are useless monikers as they try to measure what does not exist
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@Paul: “Surely you must be kidding. Have you *seen* “Jesus Campâ€? This is competence?”
– heh, reminds me of the stories I’ve heard from Baptist friends (and an experience I had at a Bible College) of students doing degrees in Theology who hadn’t even heard of people like Origen, Tertullian, or St. Augustine, let alone read them.
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First, I think your discussion is very thought provoking. I also do not disagree with the primary premise about evangelicals getting way too involved in politics. Point well made. But it seems the article is taking extreme positions taken by many most visible as evangelicals to condemn all evangelicals. In this sense, I found it to paint with way too broad a brush. There are not only 3 types of evangelical churches, with the clear implication that none of them are capturing the essence of the spreading the true gospel and doing Kingdom work. I also would argue that these trends of which you speak provide a great opportunity for those churches (whether there are a few or a lot is a matter of reasonable debate) truly doing Acts 1-2 work to once again be at the forefront of the evangelical movement and once again be the “face” of it, as it should be.
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Wow, Ingrid linked to it. You must be on to something.
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Michael, I’m impressed! 😉
Your article has garnered mentions on both Stand Firm and GetReligion!
You have the fame now, can the fortune be far behind? 🙂
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Not going to have a homosexuality debate on here.
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Overall a good piece, Michael. Your point about Evangelicals failing to pass on a legitimate faith and a vibrant theology is particularly poignant. Look at the Mormons, for example, as a counter; their middle schoolers people spend time in “seminary” (as they call it), learning the fundamentals of the LDS church. Evangelical middle schoolers go to a church with Xboxes hooked up and hang out. And Evangelical theological thought has tended to be on the shallower end, especially as one gets closer to the Fundamentalist wings. As a friend of mine from the Duke Religion Department recently said (from experience): “Evangelical seminaries are breeding grounds for either high-church converts or atheists.” This has been a developing problem for some time, and most of the Evangelical world is completely blinded to its ineffectiveness and the fact that much of it is dying.
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Oops.
Well, you’ve made the bigtime. Andrew Sullivan of “Christianist†fame < href=â€http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/03/a-coming-evange.html†quotes you on his blog.
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“…the next generation of competent workers is coming out of homeschooling and private Christian schools. It’s also impossible to ignore that public education is grossly inferior in educating disadvantaged children.”
Surely you must be kidding. Have you *seen* “Jesus Camp”? This is competence?
– A former fundamentalist, public school educated, lawyer in a top law firm in a godless liberal city
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Well, you’ve made the bigtime. Andrew Sullivan of “Christianist” fame < href=”http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/03/a-coming-evange.html” quotes you on his blog.
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I think the diagnosis is mistaken, even though the decline is correct. The rise of the charismatics/pentacostals conjoined with the rise of theological liberalism in the mainlines began emptying out the mainlines long before there was a “religious right.” Secondly, given the demographics (red staters 3.5 kids, blue staters 1.5 kids) Republicans are set for a rather large surge in the next 35 years as the culture of death consumes itself. Secularism though in practice with increase as people figure out that they can paytheir bills and fill their bellies without church membership. Like the market, the decline will not stop until we hit cultural rock bottom and the choice for the non-rational masses and the intellectual elite is made obvious-either live this way or face extinction. That will take a century or so.
I wouldn’t put Catholicism and Orthodoxy beyond this problem. Catholicism’s educaitonal structure in the west is largely secular and rebellious. And most Orthodox I know are nominal in their understanding and secular largely in their lifestyle. When the majority of your people *plan* on coming 45 minutes late to church to avoid the hassel every sunday with no sanctions from the clergy, traditon doesn’t mean much. And while Catholicism is much bigger size doesn’t imply fidelity. None of this will be stemmed without a serious across the board implementation of church discipline.
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I really enjoyed your comments because they were very thought provoking. While I don’t know your thinking behind a few I generally agree that you’re on to something.
I think there are many variables that could radically change the face of religion and religious tolerance in this country. If the Middle East continues to be a boiling pot, which the Bible promises it will be, and terriorism and religious wars increase, it will be harder and harder for the christian to stand w/o persecution and being perceived as part of the problem; I mean more so than christians are now.
Along with that, I tend to think things will be extremely difficult for Bible believing christians who are not willing to bend to the changing culture. I do believe that abortion, homosexuality, drunkenless, and the list goes on are sins not cultural behaviors. This will be an increasly difficult position in the changing world you write about.
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While I certainly can’t disagree with any of the points asserted in the post, I kept asking “where’s the data?†Must be my skeptical, atheist mind at work again.
It’s certainly true that today’s Christians are shockingly ignorant of their own faith, however, the idea that they’re going to abandon their churches—many of which are central social elements in their communities—is simply preposterous on its face, and perfectly plays into the paranoia and persecution complexes that are the dominant features of this sect.
That said, Evangelical Christians appear to spend their time making life Hell-on-Earth for others—especially gay men and lesbians—so the decline of this especially sadistic strain of religion would be most welcome.
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Bobby: “An ecumenical council should be spearheaded by the Catholic bishops in the United States to address the worries of our protestant brothers and sisters and how we can stand together. Our views on certain issues might divide us, but our main goal — salvation — is something that should unite us to work together. Catholics don’t have anything to gain when believers stop believing. It weakens the foundation of Christianity on a global level.”
Amen to that. I’ve always been pushing hard on my friends the idea that we need to get over the desire to think that their church is the Right Church – that there’s a lot more important things to do than continually bash other Denominations or churches.
The problem is that it’s just so hard for a lot of people to let go of the idea that they’re always, always right, and you’ll be always, always wrong. The comments I’ve seen on his Evangelical Collapse posts is proof enough that there’s incredibly stiff opposition to the recognition that Evangelicalism is in serious trouble…I can only imagine the outrage that would break out on both sides at the idea that the Catholic/Anglican parish and the Evangelical church on the other side of the street should work together.
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Wow, Michael, I just found you on Christian Science Monitor off of Drudge. You really know what you’re talking about, I appreciate your wisdom and it’s refreshing to have someone put into words what I’ve been observing for a long time. I’ll be checking your blog, you’ve got a new fan….
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I deeply resonated with your posts, Michael. Thank you.
What’s wrong with the complete downfall of “evangelical” Christianity?
If I may, I would like to add a challenging thought to all those who consider themselves “evangelicals.”
First, we must consider the origin of the word to begin with. Are we operating out of the age-old boxes of Catholic and Protestant here… while ignoring a New Testament faith pre 16th century reformation… or even pre 4th century Constantine? In what way are we using this brand name that we hold it closer to our hearts than that name of Christ? It would appear that a lesson in church history is in order.
I can see a modern-day conversation brewing over the term as we know it today. We all have a good idea of what it means presently for Americans. But what does it mean for church history? And is it, along with higher orders of ecclesiology, something we are willing to stuff our faith into and demand it dance for us? Are we caging up Christ in these categories and confusing these with the free, organic, Christ-centered Body of aliens and strangers inhabiting this earth?
I say now is the time for revolution, not reformation. Only one path will see it through the other-side of this mess we’ve made. Let’s go even deeper in our conversations… moving past old rhetoric and the walls we’ve built in human strength. What are those things that are directly connected to the Person of Jesus… and what is ripe for the burn barrel?
Peace,
David D. Flowers
free-lance writer & blogger
The Woodlands, TX
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“…we’re going to have a generation where the bulk of the middle class was educated in Christian institutions.” It may be possible, although I don’t think so, but if it is true, don’t expect it to last. Both my kids went to a Christian school (Lutheran), Pre-K through 8 and both have sworn that they will never put their own kids in parochial schools. Christ was not central; competition in academics and sports were. The arts were non-existant. Truly, many suburban parochial schools exist to keep these suburban kids from having to mingle with the “unwashed masses” in a public school.
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The church does not need to worry what the world’s response is to it’s gospel message, so long as the message is God’s truth and is doctrinally sound. We know that the gate is narrow, and few will enter. Most of all, we know that God is soverign and His plan will always be done. So,as members of the body, carry out Jesus’s command to spread to gospel to the ends of the earth, and let God take care of the rest.
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In my opinion, one of the most serious threats on evangelicalism today is the tendancy of people to equate the leaders of the church with the gospel. When the visual leaders fail, such as the numerous cases of child molestation in the catholic church to the widely publicized escapades of TV preachers having affairs with prostitutes, the flock begins to lose faith in their leaders, and this causes an erision in a belief of the gospel. I, myself, have begun to have serious questions about the agendas of ‘organized’ religions, and on more than one occassion have found myself on Sunday mornings hiking in the woods, sitting on a rock in the woods, and reading my bible. The church (any church) must rest upon a solid foundation, and the foundation is not only the gospel but the church leaders.
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bigChris:
https://internetmonk.com/archive/the-aris-study-christianity-on-the-decline-in-america
Researchers like Christine Wicker and theologians like Michael Horton have been saying this stuff forever. This is just my take. I said in the first one that I am a blogger and this is my opinion.
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Very interesting, Michael. I’ve recently discovered your site through Drudge and plan to read more. I participate in small home churches in the Seattle area. After having been involved in brick and mortar churches for years, I never really had a sense of building a relationship with the Father or fellow Christians…it was a place to go one or two times a week..and because of it’s size, it was difficult to build meaningful relationships with people. We now have tremendous intimacy within the home Church and we are not distracted with the distrations of busy-work that needs to be in place to keep the Western-style churches going.
Thanks for your work…!
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Now that the most powerful man in media–Matt Drudge–has linked to your CS Monitor article, which in turn links one to your blog… well, I imagine your traffic should skyrocket.
Congratulations.
You had a lot of good stuff to say, but am I correct that you don’t have any quantitative data to support these hypotheses? Don’t get me wrong–your claims appear to have merit, but, for lack of a better pun, I’d prefer to refrain from simply taking them on faith.
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The op ed piece you authored in the Christian Science Monitor and these pieces on “The Coming Evangelical Collapse” are very long on your personal opinion and short on analysis. You confuse ongoing change with “collapse”.
The church is always changing. Evangelical churches look different today from what the same churches looked like in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. Pastors change, and emphasize different things. Music directors change, and bring in new music. New opportunities for ministry arise, and missions budgets shift to reflect those changes.
The next 20 years will see the same phenomenon continue. To characterize these changes as an “evangelical collapse” is entirely disingenuous. You use the word “collapse” to grab headlines, promote your bias, and sell books.
But your views do not reflect the facts on the ground. The liberal church is collapsing – not the evangelical church. Liberal churches all over the country are shrinking and closing their doors. Evangelical churches are growing and expanding. You may wish this was not true but a bit more attention to facts and research would erase any doubt.
Jesus’ message of sacrificial redemption is one that has endured for 2000 years, and will continue to endure. Evangelicals take the gospel seriously and seek to explain its core unchanging message to a culture that is constantly changing.
We don’t need bailouts, we don’t depend on the government, and politics are not central to our message. Our faith and values shape our politics. We vote, and we say what we think.
We are not collapsing.
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I am simply saying what you can read at any Catholic research site: There’s been a stready increase in evangelical converts since Vat II and esp since JPII and B16. My wife included.
That is positive in a lot of ways, but it will bring evangelicalism into a lot of parishes.
BTW- I wish I knew more Catholics like you 🙂 God bless you.
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Michael,
As a Roman Catholic, how does Catholicism stand to benefit the collapse of the Evangelical sect of Christianity? I find that appalling, as we are all striving to find peace and unity in this world. Your pessimistic viewpoint is saddening to many Catholics that I have passed your blog to. In discussion with them, the global Christian community should be a united front instead of waiting in the wings to watch our brothers and sisters fall prey to the secular demons that have taken root in the culture of death, especially in the United States.
An ecumenical council should be spearheaded by the Catholic bishops in the United States to address the worries of our protestant brothers and sisters and how we can stand together. Our views on certain issues might divide us, but our main goal — salvation — is something that should unite us to work together. Catholics don’t have anything to gain when believers stop believing. It weakens the foundation of Christianity on a global level.
If we want our children to live in a world where the word and works of Jesus Christ are not considered taboo, we need to stand firm and stand together.
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Brett: I never said the end of anything. I said a major downturn and diversification.
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I want to encourage you to read Rodney Stark’s book “What American’s Really Believe.” We may see a downturn in Christian faith under Obama, but I doubt it. Yes, some in the evangelical community have too closely aligned themselves with the GOP, but this economic disaster is going to scare the “hell” out of many who have become cool toward faith. Obama’s liberalism will not last through the next 8 years. Just like with Carter, liberalism will go out of style as surely as neo-cons. Young evangelicals are doing a good job of communicating the Gospel and many churches are seeing a rebirth of faith and devotion among the young. They have begun to address issues like the environment and AIDS in a compelling way. This sort of servant-hearted ministry has always come with awakenings and these signs of life should give us great hope for the decades that are ahead.
Honestly. Do you really believe that young evangelicals know less about their faith than the uneducated masses that lived in America 100 years ago?
This sort of “the end of Christian influence” story line is as old as America. In the last 1700s every major academic institution in this nation was proclaiming the death of Christianity. America is far more committed to faith in Christ and the local church than we were in the 1700s or the early 1900s for that matter.
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It doesn’t matter what the numbers are – the people who got the superior education will be the ones doing the professional and bureaucratic work. They will have more prestige and set the tone for people wanting to improve themselves. They will be overwhelmingly the products of Catholic schools, Christian academies, and homeschooling – and if we continue having affirmative action this will be even more true, because public school fails black and Latino children the worst.
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I’ve linked to here from CSM via Drudge.
I think you have a nice piece of work, here.
A question, though: Don’t you think “in the main” that Pentecostalism is fraught with experientialism and danger from occultism?
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These sentiments have clearly exposed the underbelly of the real agenda of the forces behind the slow death of America.
Rather than fulfilling the commission of Christ to simply preach His Gospel to allow the Word of God to convict the human heart as the true catalyst of change, we as a collective body are misappropriating our strength and energy into using the government and intellectual debate as weapons of warfare in this spiritual battle.
In doing so, we as a collective body of Christians are not allowing the Word of God to Save, we are hiding behind conservative media moguls like Rush Limbaugh as though they are saviors of a principle that America was founded upon.
While the wealth of Rush Limbaugh can cushion him from the attacks he suffers, the wealth of the individual Christian cannot be relied upon to endure the vile attacks of the enemy in a new America where the enemy does not play by the fair rules of engagement.
In a new America where the President rules by clear policy that government is the new god of America, there is no future for Christianity in America if the Christian expects government to yield to the true God by merely petitioning government to change.
Christians in America must stop hiding behind government and public approval and start forging ahead with no fear of what man can do. We must do this now if God’s grace will save this Country from its future course of soon destruction from our own ways.
Wes Hazlett
The Bodyguard: A Christian Apologetics Ministry
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Michael,
Great article. As a former cog in the machine (I was a youth pastor for three years and young adults pastor for a year and a half), I must say that I’m not altogether disheartened by your predictions.
I am SOOOO tired of American Churchianity. Not that I recommend this film to anyone, but I think the movie “Saved” is a pretty pointed indictment of American Churchianity.
I am so discouraged, lately, at the condition of the American church. Every church I visit, lately, is more like an episode of Oprah or Dr. Phil. We don’t need Sunday morning messages on how to balance our checkbooks, anymore. We need Jesus.
I think that theologically limp-wristed preachers like Joel Osteen (the smiley preacher), who refuse to discuss sin and repentance (the very reason for salvation), are so symptomatic of the man-tainted gospel that has been preached for the last quarter of the 20th century.
I pray that in the collapse, the message of Godly men like Ray Comfort will be elevated above the ear-tickling, milquetoast gospel of most modern pastors.
Thank you.
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Well I hope there is a 100% change and everyone becomes Catholic or Orthodox and the Church reunifies and we have a big party. The part I am disputing is the idea that Christianity is going become identified as some big threat to children by enough powerful organizations to matter. That’s ridiculous, because people who believe that kind of nonsense don’t have children and think getting bus ads about atheism is an awesome feat of organization.
And money is not the problem in the way you’re thinking about it. People will sacrifice for the education of their children. [Mod edit]
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>…So we’re going to have a generation where the bulk of the middle class was educated in Christian institutions.
Check your numbers there. I think you are a bit off. Is even 15% of America in private schools?
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I have been at a Christian school for 17 years.
I think the problem will be money. It’s that simple.
If Christian schools want to change and be multi-racial and affordable, then you are right. But if they aren’t, then ask the RCC how its going. Some schools in white suburban areas booming, but others closing.
I hope they flourish. I really do. But I don’t see it. A lot of them will close. Remember than I am talking about a 50% change for evangelicals. Not the end.
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Can you explain to me how Christian schools are going to lose status when public education is failing? It’s pretty observable that the next generation of competent workers is coming out of homeschooling and private Christian schools. It’s also impossible to ignore that public education is grossly inferior in educating disadvantaged children. And then there’s demographics which you seem to be ignoring completely – people who are anti-Christian in the way you describe just don’t have children. So we’re going to have a generation where the bulk of the middle class was educated in Christian institutions, even if they aren’t fervent believers – and the bulk of the population as a whole comes from Christian homes. And these people are going to help dismantle evangelicalism? Yeah I’m not seeing it.
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Good googley moogley, you can now access your article at CSM on the Drudge Report. Now, that’s impressive! Good job, Bro.!
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I am sobered, and amazed at your work. I’ll be reading your blog regularly. I’ll also put you on my blog roll.
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