UPDATE II: Creech has sold over $220 of beads, string and trinkets since I lost my salvation. You people are awesome. His kids may be able to have shoes for Easter.
UPDATE: Humor on board. Beware if not using proper gear.
In a shocking demonstration of intolerance toward those whom God has just made differently, the Episcopal diocese of Rhode Island has defrocked a minister who is both a Muslim and a Christian. You can read the shocking story for yourself .
The Episcopal church continues the persecution of those invisible minorities in its midst; those who find the doors of ministry closed to them simply because they affirm both Allah and the Holy Trinity as being one and the same.
Protests outside TEC headquarters seemed to bring no reaction. The church turned a dull, deaf ear to a pastor who wanted to do nothing more than affirm that both the Nicene Creed and the Koran were her true guides for life.
In this time of division and disagreement, we need to affirm those who are different. We need to embrace our diversity. Jesus and Mohammed would have embraced the courage of this young woman who refused to see differences when there were so many similarities. Now she will be unable to go to Mecca and pray the “Our Father.”
Rejecting those who call upon Yahweh and Allah, Jesus and Mohammad is an example of the small-minded bigotry that continues to grip the Episcopal church. Recent news reports indicate that the church may be refusing to allow the recently defrocked pastor to have a Muslim-Christian wedding ceremony as well.
How long will it be before we come out of the night and embrace one another as this woman has? How long till we see that Mohammed and Jesus were, after all, both against kicking puppies? Both had mothers who were women? Both liked hot sauce on their boneless wings.
By the way, a CNN reporter who covered this story was fired when it was discovered he was also working for Fox News.
The Internet Monk Archives 
I’ve read the Gospels.
And I’ve read Mohammad’s particular spin on Jesus in the Koran.
What I fear is that attempting to resolve the two in a single unified theology might actually rupture the fabric of time and space,thereby causing the earth to be swallowed by a black hole.
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I am confused. Islam rejects the Trinity entirely and claims that Christians are polytheists. I wonder what Muslims think about this. Frankly I am surprised with the Episcopal church, considering their push for a “one world religion.” I am not sure how you defend the claim that the Muslim Allah is a member of the Holy Trinity of Christianity. Could you please explain yourself more?
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WOW, first time I ever checked out this site and it makes my head spin. What some folks of faith have to say baffles me. It would be great if those same folks really knew or understood the theology they claim to represent. 1 Jn 4:1-3 says “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God: because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” I have a hard time understanding how we miss the big picture.
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I guess I should have read all Heather W.’s posts before giving her a cheer. I like the first one.
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I get that the post is sarcastic. I agree that it’s a little difficult to get up and say the Nicene creed and also believe the entire Koran. But, I’m offended by many of these comments. Come on, you all. Not all muslims blow themselves up on buses. Can’t we for once discuss religion without bringing in the fanatics? Enjoy the post, but don’t bash another people of another faith.
Heather W.- you go girl!
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*BOING*
Dog-gone it, Michael! You’ve broke my sarcast-o-meter! Now I’ve gotta get another one from Radio Shack and they aren’t cheap at all.
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The defrocked lady was either fooling herself or taught by someone who did not know Islam. We all know that happens. Fortunately, her misinformation and/or misunderstanding of Islam only lead to her embracing two faiths and finally loosing her job, not killing anyone riding a bus. A Muslim can not be an Episcopal priest. No offense to any particular faith, but it does not work that way if you are Muslim and apparently if you are an Episcopalian priest. The Episcopalian church was not wrong in defrocking her. I saw that coming two years ago.
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Oh come on people….
This is so typical for what the rest of us “eastern coptic orthodox catholic evangelical buddhist hindus” run into…. but confucius had warned us of the intolerance we would face 😎
Let’s all gather around a campfire and sing kumbaja
But all kidding and sarcasm aside. All these practices above (and yes I’ve dabbled in some of them in a little “lost” period in my life), have some good things in them. Certainly meditation practices, prayer, fasting, respect for others, for the environment, etc are all good things that usually we as evangelicals can use a little more of. I am still awed each time in an Eastern Orthodox service. Talk about thinking about the “mystery of God”. Nothing better 😉
But frankly, combining the different faiths and accept both as truth is a bit far-fetched. Almost sound like a form of Pascal’s wager on all fronts. Personally, I think Islam and Christianity are too diametrically opposed to be able to be reconciled. One can still appreciate their honesty in worship, their perseverance during Ramaddan, etc.. doesn’t mean it’s the truth or aligns with Christianity.
Not judging this person, but I think the TEC did the right thing.
In Him
Mick
PS: If the fact that this trappist Monk can brew better beer thanks to his Zen skills… I’m all for it 😉 Yes.. I’m from Belgium.
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One thing I NEVER thought I’d see referenced on this website was furry fandom, let alone furry fandom IN SCHISM – way to make the character of inter-necine religious disputes totally meta-awkward by pointing out their creepy similitude with bizarre internet subcultures, Headless. Half my brain just jiggled and separated from itself. — Pat Lynch
I try to make everybody’s day a bit more surreal.
And as someone who’s been involved in Furry Fandom before it even heard of the Internet, I can attest that there were furries and proto-furries who made their fandom into their Religion. Their One True Way Fundamentalist Religion. These True Believer types are the origin of most of the “News of the Weird” stories you hear about “FURRREEEEEE”s.
Because when you let anything take over your life with all the unsmiling seriousness of a fundamentalist religion, you have Left Behind any chance of a reality check and there is no way to keep from drifting off on a tangent.
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You are very gravely mistaken to think that Muhammad is the same, or similar to Jesus.
The entire religion of Islam is a message of ungrace, Allah punishing people for their sins and rewarding them for good works. Where is the grace? Is this not completely contrary to the fundamentals of the Christian religion; that all our righteousness are as dirty as rags and we need further payment for our sins?
All of Christianity rests on the fact that God is willing to give us grace, which is what we do not deserve. Christ came to serve and so that we could know the Father through him.
Christ said “I am THE way THE truth and THE light, NO ONE comes to the father, EXCEPT through me.”
There is no room for anyone else … the idea that Muhammad was, in any way shape or form, compatible with Christ is ludicrous.
I encourage you (the author) to watch this video: http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/4/Fitna-New-English-Version-485249.html
The video reveals some of the true natures of Islam, which I believe–in my opinion–to be in fact formulated by the enemy of God.
–And by the way, the maker of that video was given a death warrant by the fundamental Islamic community by the way, and it appears in-print of Islamic governed newspapers–
Essentially what Islam is, is a religion of intolerance and salvation by works. True, many believers in Islam are backslidden and prescribe to a liberal, harmless interpretation of the Qur’an. But the true idea of Islam is to conquer and convert the known world. If you read the Qur’an, which I encourage you to do, you will see this. Convert or die; as simple as that. The fundamentalists wield the correct interpretation of the book and Muhammad’s teachings, and make up a large portion (something like 10% of a BILLION people) of the Islamic community. These are the sort of people issuing ‘jihads’, and not against governments, nations, or powers but against ALL ‘non-believers’.
From the perspective of a Christian worldview, its teachers have all the elements of false prophets, which were warned against in the coming age. One of the characteristics, the Bible teaches, of a false prophet is sexual immorality. Muhammad was a libidinous, lascivious man. He was a violent man and a pedophile who had sex and force-married his 9 year old child-relative. According to Islam, the legal age of marriage is 9 years old, just because Muhammad said that ‘God told him that’.
Allah is not God and Muhammad is not his prophet.
I challenge anyone who disagrees with that.
Learn the truth, which will set you free.
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*Has anyone else ever wondered if Bishop Spong is secretly a satanist?*
No. The greatest trick satan ever pulled was making religious people think he actually did exist.
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RWS2 – amen to good ole’ moderate liberals!
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Ah, the priesthood of all believers.
I remember that from Lutheran Sunday school and confirmation classes.
Thanks for the clarification Urban Otter.
BTW I’m liberal to a degree but was not suggesting Christianity and Islam can be re-mixed into a coherent belief system. And I am not sympathetic to that idea.
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May I direct your attention to the Wikipedia articles for “Ann Holmes Redding” and “Kevin Thew Forrester” (the Zen guy).
Turns out there was also a New Jersey Episcopal priest, Bill Melnyk, who got defrocked for being a Druid. But Wikipedia doesn’t have anything on him yet.
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Has anyone else ever wondered if Bishop Spong is secretly a satanist?
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“The history of religion scholars argue that the other world religions — Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Islam — tend to break into only two or three different schools of thought, not literally hundreds as is the case with Christianity.”
If Christianity is based on the Bible, and every believer has the duty and right to read and interpret the Bible for himself, there are going to be thousands upon thousands of different interpretations.
You could define Christianity to include anybody who calls himself “Christian” or go to other extreme and determine that almost every Christian is his own little sect of one. Determining how many variations of Christianity exist depends on how broad or narrow you make your categories, and whose definition of Christian dogma you accept as authoritative.
Unless you render your definitions so vague and inclusive as to be meaningless, Islam and Christianity are not the same religion. Whereas Mormons, Protestants, Catholics, and Oneness Pentecostals all believe that Jesus is God (although they don’t agree on the Trinity), Islam is clear that Jesus is not God.
Either Jesus is God or he’s not. Either Muhammad is the last prophet or he’s not. Either the Archangel Gabriel dictated the Koran or he did not. It perplexes me that the TEC priest did not immediately recognize that Islam and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Did she ever talk to any Muslims? I can’t imagine that any imam would accept the idea that one can be both a Christian and a Muslim at the same time.
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No one ever told me I had to defend Gene Robinson as a legit Bishop.
I also appreciate the humor of the post. I can’t add much to what Nathan and others have already said, but I will voice my appreciation of Bishop Wolf of RI for her pastoral handling of this situation. She inhibited Redding from exercising any sort of pastoral ministry for over a year while giving her a pastoral directive to reflect upon the incompatibility of the Christian faith and Islam. She then met with the woman, after which she gave her a further period of several months to think about what her refusal to recant would mean, and only then did she take the step of defrocking her. She performed her role as a defender of the faith admirably and many of our Bishops could learn a lot from her. Perhaps part of the misunderstanding here could be chalked up to a different understanding of what ordination is, i.e. functional vs. ontological.
At any rate, John Spong was never disciplined because it is an unfortunate aspect of TEC polity that the Bishops are expected to police themselves, which they rarely do (though they have in the case of Charles Bennison of PA). Indeed, I believe a good deal of the blame for the current fragmentation of Anglicanism in the USA can be laid at the feet of that poor design. We would be much better off if we had a juridical arm like the Methodists. As it is, God is dealing with us in his way and time anyway.
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How this one woman does excite opinions.
First, it seems that Huston Smith is correct in predicting that if the goal of having one world religion were achieved on Saturday, there would be two world religions by Sunday.
Second, are all the groups that self-identify as Christian really members of one religion? Some history of religion scholars contend that Christianity is a group of different religions with a more or less common source. How do you get those Pentecostals who do not believe in the Trinity, the liberal Quakers, the Jesuits and other RCC traditions, the Orthodox, plus the standard brand Protestants and a variety of fundamentalists and evangelicals into one tent with a sign over the door the says Christian?
The history of religion scholars argue that the other world religions — Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Islam — tend to break into only two or three different schools of thought, not literally hundreds as is the case with Christianity.
If this is correct, why is that?
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“Remember what happened the last time they enthroned a whore in Notre Dame as Goddess of the New Faith.
In religion, Multicultural Diversity is generally known as “Syncretismâ€; put different faiths (even vaguely-related or unrelated ones) into a blender and pour out the pureed results — a Great Mush God like tapioca pudding, the Fete of the Supreme Being that could be anybody.”
One thing I NEVER thought I’d see referenced on this website was furry fandom, let alone furry fandom IN SCHISM – way to make the character of inter-necine religious disputes totally meta-awkward by pointing out their creepy similitude with bizarre internet subcultures, Headless. Half my brain just jiggled and separated from itself.
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Some thoughts, responses, etc.
Imonk,
I agree we have to look out for the flock. that’s why the priest was inhibited.
To all,
The critique of slowness can’t be laid at the Bishop of R.I.’s feet. This priest was canonically resident in her diocese, but working on the other side of the country. The R.I. Bishop has to trust that the Bishop on site in Seattle will be “guarding the trust”. If I remember correctly, the R.I. Bishop didn’t even know about this dual faith thing until it became a public interest piece in certain media outlets.
She became aware of it and moved into deliberate discussions with this priest.
Discipline must be exercised with sobriety, and the search to understand and be clear so that we are not authoritarian, arbitrary, or abrupt. This way we are disciplining in love, as a corrective and the hope for reconciliation.
The R.I. Bishop demonstrated faithfulness, wisdom and charity.
The disturbing piece is the outgoing Bishop in the Olympia Diocese (seattle area) and all that blather about “exciting possibilities”. then again, he may not have had a full picture of what was really going on either. It’s a big diocese and it’s hard to keep tabs on the nuances and ins-and-outs of everyone’s spiritual journey.
Besides…the priest in question, for better or for worse, is the “problem” of the Bishop under whom she is resident.
Even a lot of “liberal” Episcopalians agree with the deposition.
On another front, it will be interesting to see what happens with the dual Buddhist-Christian bishop of North Michigan…
There are increasing calls for the standing committees and the House of Bishops to not consent to his consecration. Not only because of the irregularities in the selection process, but because of the theological issues.
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Islam does not claim to be built on Christianity, but rather supplants it. Islam does not accept Christian scripture, but instead disowns it and replaces it with its own anti-christ documents. — Heather W
More accurately, Islam appears to be a syncretic blend of Abrahamic monotheism applied to Arab Tribal beliefs, optimized for pre-industrial Arab Tribal culture in the harsh conditions of the Arabian Peninsula. And it has shown much less flexibility and adaptability then either Judaism or Christianity. (Maybe that’s due to their unbroken string of early success; Christianity was an underground outlaw faith for its first two centuries, and Judaism periodically gets stomped on by the goyim. But the curse of Unbroken Immediate/Early Success sets you in your ways as the One True Way and stagnates you, whether your name’s Chris Paolini or Apple Computer — or Islam. Maybe Islam needs a Babylonian Captivity/Destruction of the Temple experience like Judaism had — a BAD reality check in order to “mellow out”.)
As to what is or isn’t Christ-like, we do need to keep in mind the Christ who told Peter to “get behind me Satan†or who told a Samaritan woman that she was a dog. Christ isn’t always totally ..nice. — Heather W
Ever heard of the phrase “Lawful Good does NOT mean Lawful Nice”?
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As open minded as I am . . . this one was a no-brainer. Relativism taken to the extreme . . . seated on the throne in Notre Dame as the new goddess of religion. — JMJ
Remember what happened the last time they enthroned a whore in Notre Dame as Goddess of the New Faith.
In religion, Multicultural Diversity is generally known as “Syncretism”; put different faiths (even vaguely-related or unrelated ones) into a blender and pour out the pureed results — a Great Mush God like tapioca pudding, the Fete of the Supreme Being that could be anybody.
And Multicultural Diversity in all venues is an unstable state, lasting only until the most dynamic culture in the mix absorbs the others (“AMERICA! WHISKY! SEXY!”) or the most aggressive culture destroys the others (“AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”). Because One True Way is a VERY stable rest state.
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I’ve been working on my doctrines
All the livelong day.
Got to get myself to Glory.
Help me, folks, I pray.
Atheism had some good points;
It let me off the hook.
It also freed up Sunday morning
To read my favorite book.
Then I checked in with the Presbys;
They weren’t a lot of fun.
I never got the “T†in TULIP;
In fact, it made me run.
Methodists were kind of pleasant.
The Quakers were quite nice.
I’m not really much of either,
So they both told me “No dice.â€
Going it alone with Calvin
Made my tummy hurt;
Switching off to Mr. John Knox
Put me lower than dirt.
Maybe I should try a woman?
But it’s a real short list.
Eddy never could convince me
My toothache don’t exist.
Can’t be no Episcopalian;
They’re too weird for me.
All that kneeling and processing:
They’re RC Wannabes.
Don’t think I can be a Baptist;
Immersion makes me sneeze.
RCs kneeling round an altar
Are too hard on my knees.
Charismatics make me nervous.
“Tongues†more nervous still.
And I just leave the room when my friend
Turns on Benny Hill.
My search so far has been a wide one,
Though maybe not so deep.
For now I’ll stick to “Jesus loves me.â€
And “Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep.â€
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Why would the TEC boot her and not Spong? Can’t figure that one out.
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*Belize: And everyone in Balencia gowns with red corsages, and big dance palaces full of music and lights and racial impurity and gender confusion. And all the deities are creole, mulatto, brown as the mouths of rivers. Race, taste and history finally overcome. And you ain’t there.
Roy Cohn: And Heaven?
Belize: That was Heaven, Roy.*
—Angels in America
Tony Kushner
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Oh if you want to see where this kind of thing will lead you, all you have to do is look at the majority of Yearly Meetings in Quakerism. It started with people claiming to be two religions at once, or people who were straight up not Christian coming into meetings because they liked the Quaker style of worship. Now there’s people running around saying they’re Buddist Quakers, Muslim Quakers, ATHEIST Quakers… Most yearly meetings are basically universalist. I’ve heard rumors of meetings that have gone so far that if you stand up and say, “Jesus…” people gasp. I think my yearly meeting (Ohio) is the only one left where you HAVE to be a Christian to hold any kind of membership. Britain Yearly Meeting has removed all references to Christ from their Book of Discipline, except where it says they used to be a Christian outfit, but now they’re not. I sometimes cross paths with a woman who attends a nearby *liberal* meeting. People always think because we’re both Quakers we should get along great, but we mostly ignore eachother and make wide circles around eachother. She thinks I’m terribly intollerant because I believe Jesus is the only way to God. I think she’s opened her mind so far all her brains fell out.
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There are some admirable things about Islam – particularly in the five pillars: Confession of One God, Prayer (couldn’t we all do with a little more prayer), Alms Giving, Fasting… But, she’s not saying that there’s things about Islam that we could use a little more of in Christianity. Heck! I’ll say that! We need to not just say there is only one God, but act like it too. We need more prayer. We need more alms giving, and a little fasting probably wouldn’t hurt a single one of us. But, what she’s claiming is to be both a Christian and a Muslim, and you just can’t do that. Islam rejects Jesus as the Son of God, and that is the very cornerstone of Christianity. If you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God, you are not a Christian. Period.
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Going back to the original intent of the post:
What a horrible trial this poor woman has been put through. We of the faith community must stand up for the rights of all to freely express his or her individual belief systems. If not, we risk loosing the right to express in a public forum the desire to have the higher being of the universe bring good feelings to all people regardless of race, creed, or tattooing practice. As long as said practice does not involve wearing fur.
What is needed immediately is a nation-wide initiative, lead by a White House-appointed czar, to implement sensitivity training at all levels within the 501c community to ensure that this sort of thing cannot happen again. After all, since the government is being deprived of tax dollars (which is equivalent to receiving government funding), it only makes sense that said non-profit NGO’s should be forced to follow government rules and hiring practices.
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adhunt – No worries. Have a great weekend. 🙂
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I live in the Middle East. All Anglicans here (and Baptists, Presbyterians and Catholics etc etc) “call upon Allah”, as it is the name of God used in the Arabic Bible. But I don’t think this poor lady would get along any better here than in the US, there’s simply no reconciling the Koranic verses many have quoted here with a Christian view of Trinity.
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martha – I’d take that letter!
KY Boy but not now – We’ve been known to change a tire or two in the past, but we try to run them until the tires are shredded. On AMiA pastors saying the Communion seems to have endless patience for almost any sin…I believe there was a story that went something like this: “How many times must I forgive a repeat offender Lord; seven times?” “Nope. SEVENTY times seven (ie – forever)”
Christopher K – that would be my bad entirely. My sincere apologies for misinterpreting you. More so than merely this thread I have noticed much misinformation about TEC. Be it news concerning this disconcerting “budhhist” bishop, which as it turns out is not going so well for him, 10 or so bishops rejecting and counting… Or exagerated stories of our apostasy. We’ve still got the ’79 Prayer Book, and until that changes to something heretical we are still orthodox.
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Big Chief,
You have to go back a lot further than just 1054 for line controversies, but your point is well taken. Pretty soon we are going to have the evangelical equivalent of Rodney King asking “why can’t we all just get along?” without any irony whatsoever.
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adhunt, I actually meant what I posted. I was genuinely (note the lack of sarcasm quotes,) hoping you would expound on what you saw as a lack of knowledge from those posting on the board. If I wanted to be a jerk, I would have prefaced it by saying “Well if you’re so smart, why don’t you enlighten us?†Alas, I only intended my post to be taken at face value. Sorry for the miscommunication.
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So now we have both sides of the coin. iMonk is condemned because he has an advertisement for rosaries. Say something about beads and you’re on the way to being a secret Cardinal. On the other side we have the Episcomuslim who is deposed. What makes this “the other side of the coin” is the fact that it’s quite clear that there are bishops in TEC who would have let her continue. And yes TEC is now having to deal with a man put forward for bishop who evidently denies Trinitarian doctrine, atonement through Christ’s death, and evidently the doctrine of sin.
So where do we draw the line. As an Episcopalian I like the Via Media. It indicates we are to tolerate variation on that which is not central, while agreeing on what is essential (I’m crazy enough to think beads aren’t central). Unfortunately TEC is well on the way to the point that NOTHING is defined as central and essential. A truly Post-Modern church. All is vanity.
So where do we draw the line? Isn’t that the tipping point question for every schism that has rocked the Church since 1054?
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OK, let’s all decided exactly what this woman believes without even bothering to ask her!
that’s what some of you are doing. You wouldn’t think being judged without a hearing was fair if it were you we were talking about, would we?
more to the point, things are very culturally different in the ME countries (and West Africa, and South and East Asia, and in the Caucasus, and in parts of China, etc.) than they are here. We Westerners tend to judge others and their beliefs and cultures by and with our standards – including various Western versions of Christianity. There are, still, lots of Christians in the ME, North Africa and elsewhere who are not evangelical – who have a longer history of being “in the faith” than does most of the Western church, be it Catholic, Protestant – whatever.
We are – I am – very quick to judge people, aren’t we? (As opposed to listening to them 1st, then talking with them.)
[/end comments from me in this thread]
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e2c
“Martha, i think we need to agree to disagree on this right now… because a lot of what we hear about Islam comes from sources that really don’t know much about the various theological schools and branches within it, nor about Qur’anic scholarship and interpretation, nor… well, I wish some of my friends who do mission work in the Muslim world were available to reply to you here. I lack their knowledge.”
A friend of mine was a cleric in Egypt before he converted and then fled the country before the police arrested him for said conversion. He would think the lady this in the article is in serious sin or seriously deluded. And he does his stuff. It’s amazing to hear him talk. I think he has the Bible and the Qur’an memorized and can quote verses in both English and Arabic. He runs a ministry spreading the Gosple via internet radio broadcasts.
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e2c
“An aside: would we react in the same way (cutting someone off) if they said they were both Jewish and Christian?”
The first (few 1000? 10,000?) Christians were all Jews. And for a long time time Jews were the vast majority of Christians as the faith spread via the Synagogs of the eastern Roman empire. What we call the Jewish religion now are the descendants of the ones who never accepted Christ.
So, yes, you can be both Jewish and Christain.
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From someone who IS Jewish and a follower of Christ, I can say that the situation is completely incongruent with being Muslim and christian.
Judaism’s scriptures testify of Jesus through and through. Islam’s scriptures testify against Him.
Christianity rests on Judaism, and recognizes that Judaism is its root. Christianity does not claim that the Jewish scriptures are false, or distorted, but accepts them as is and builds on them.
Islam does not claim to be built on Christianity, but rather supplants it. Islam does not accept Christian scripture, but instead disowns it and replaces it with its own anti-christ documents.
As to what is or isn’t Christ-like, we do need to keep in mind the Christ who told Peter to “get behind me Satan” or who told a Samaritan woman that she was a dog. Christ isn’t always totally ..nice.
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adhunt
Some of us here would love to join an AMiA church. Or maybe even a break away TEC church. But we each have our reasons for not doing so. And given the thin ranks at this time it’s hard to find them nearby.
But yes we also feel the TEC is a bus where 3 of the 4 tires are flat and the passengers are debating how far they can go on just one tire instead of fixing the 3 flat ones.
As to how long things take, I’ve been told by serveral AMiA pastors that the Anglican communion does have a mindset of trying to reconcile that sometimes seems to never end no matter what the sin.
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Martha, i think we need to agree to disagree on this right now… because a lot of what we hear about Islam comes from sources that really don’t know much about the various theological schools and branches within it, nor about Qur’anic scholarship and interpretation, nor… well, I wish some of my friends who do mission work in the Muslim world were available to reply to you here. I lack their knowledge. But I did post a link to someone who’s highly recommended by all of them!
Cheers,
e.
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An aside: would we react in the same way (cutting someone off) if they said they were both Jewish and Christian?
I can see the innate problem with druids, Wiccans, et. al. But when you’re dealing with the 3 major monothestic faiths, there’s more overlap than we often like to admit, or see. (As well as major differences between all 3.)
I think what Nathan said here is very true:
…that’s part of the reason why there was a process to depose this priest.
It gave her time to reflect and to possibly repent. she was inhibited during that time and was not allowed to exercise her ministry.
For all our faults, some of you evangelicals would do well to learn from your anglican cousins.
Where we drag and sometimes hem and haw, ya’ll rush in and cut people off…
I know. I used to be a pastor in evangelical churches. The general stance of scorn and sneering isn’t very Christ like.
Having been one of the “cut off” (for entirely different reasons than those cited in your post, iMonk), I think Nathan hit the proverbial nail on its head here.
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e2c, dialogue and patience is always good. But the woman cannot be both a Muslim and a Christian; she is deficient in her understanding of one or the other of the two faiths.
If she does not believe Jesus to be, in the words of St. Peter, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”, then she can be a faithful Muslim, but she cannot continue as a Christian cleric.
If she accepts the claims of Christianity regarding the Trinity, then she runs up against this barrier:
One of the 99 most beautiful names of Allah is:
“al-Waahedu
Meaning:
THE UNIQUE, THE ONE
He who is single, absolutely without partner or equal in His essence, attributes, actions, names and decrees. He who has neither a father nor a mother nor a wife nor a son; He is neither begotten nor does He beget. He is alone to be adored.
Related Verse From The Holy Koran:
O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: FOR ALLAH IS ONE GOD: GLORY BE TO HIM: (FAR EXALTED IS HE) ABOVE HAVING A SON. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)”
Now, she can accept the view of Jesus in Islam – a prophet sent by God, greatest of all prophets save Muhammed himself, especially favoured by God, but still human alone – or she can accept the view of Jesus in Christianity – the Son of God, God made Man, the Second Person of the Trinity.
But I don’t see any way of reconciling these two contradictory views without doing violence to one or other of them – or being false to both (Jesus was only human, but a human with such a special insight into God’s will and how life-in-God should be lived that he was filled with the Spirit so much that he became a son of God, and we can all be sons and daughters of God that same way, so that Allah can indeed be called our Father).
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I will add one thing: we ignore or excoriate Islam and many of its ideas to our own hurt, because there’s lots to learn from it, and from many of its most faithful followers. I’m not talking about religious extremists here, at all, but about ordinary people who experience many – if not all – of the same temptations, difficulties and pressures that we Christians do.
I can honestly say that I’ve known devout Muslims who were more Christlike in their attitude toward others than are many of us American Christians. There’s a lot to gain by establishing friendships and talking with (rather than at) each other…
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Patrick, please note that it’s Jesuits involved there 🙂
(Though yeah – a Trappist?!)
However, at least so far we don’t have Buddhist bishops (might be an improvement in some cases…)
And to make things even better, the gentleman in question is an ex-Catholic and graduate student of Fr. Charles Curran. You can see where he got his robust grounding in orthodox practice, can’t you? 😉
I once (in jest) posted on an Episcopalian blog that we Catholics should make up a form letter of apology that we could issue to the orthodox Episcopalians for the craziness that ensues when yet another ex-RC joins TEC and starts with the weirdness, but it’s looking less like a joke by the day.
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iMonk, I’m troubled by this post, for many reasons – and think Nathan (the Episcopalian who posted 2 up from me, here) has a lot of excellent points.
I won’t go into my feelings about this post here, or now. I need to think them over a bit before I commit anything to paper – let alone a public blog.
But I will leave you with this link to an interview with Anglican scholar Kenneth Cragg, who has written many good, thoughtful – and deeply insightful – books and articles on Islam, Christian-Muslim dialogue and much more. We sorely need voices like his in these times, here in the US.
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Is a “watchman on the wall” something one can appoint oneself? Keith Green had a great pamphlet called something along the lines of “So You Think You’re A Prophet.”
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Merton was interested in some aspects of monasticism and monastic practice in eastern religions, yes.
Nathan,
On taking time, I do agree in most instances, but not in all. The handling of leaders should show a paramount concern for the welfare of the flock. Too long delay sends the wrong message. But in general, I completely agree.
peace
ms
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all that being said…my comment isn’t directed at iMonk..I “get” the levity of his post.
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As an Episcopalian I can say that our national church clearly has its issues. But some of the critiques here demonstrate a real lack of understanding of our polity.
Not always done well, there is an ideal of doing things relationally…that’s part of the reason why there was a process to depose this priest.
It gave her time to reflect and to possibly repent. she was inhibited during that time and was not allowed to exercise her ministry.
For all our faults, some of you evangelicals would do well to learn from your anglican cousins.
Where we drag and sometimes hem and haw, ya’ll rush in and cut people off…
I know. I used to be a pastor in evangelical churches. The general stance of scorn and sneering isn’t very Christ like.
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Imonk,
I know this may be kind of off topic, but didn’t Thomas Merton undergo a similar situation regarding Buddhism and Eastern Mysticism?
**Note the “similar”, I am not saying Merton became a Buddhist.
But really, how fine is the line between admiring the religion and becoming a part of the religion?
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imonk,
Thanks for the love. And I would never defend practices that need reforming. I have made the surprising choice of joining up with TEC in the last few years, despite all the wonderous goings on, in part at least because of that fact that a lot of what they are struggling with, especially same sex relationships and interactions with other faiths, are things that evangelicals are going to have to deal with sooner or later. For instance look at how Scot McKnight’s blog is aflame with comments having just brought up the homosexuality issue. Only I have faith in the Anglican Communion (against all hope I know), at least in part because of its leaders.
We could all due well to remember there is no such thing as a perfect church. Hell, my Assemblies of God upbringing had me believing some pretty borderline issues; it is just that evangelicals are for some hypocritical reason ok with “conservative” errors, but somehow liberal errors are just too much. For instance I think that Calvinism makes God into a tyrant, but it is an error us Weslyans tolerate.
Food for thought. There are plenty in the Mainline who affirm the Creeds, including virgin birth and bodily resurrection; who *still* support same sex relationships. It’s confusing isn’t it?
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Martha, we have a couple in the RCC too, weirdly enough.
From 2004, here’s a Trappist monk who’s also a Buddhist monk, for instance:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_34_40/ai_n6127448/
An excerpt for you lazy folks:
On April 17, at St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Mass., Trappist priest Kevin Hunt was installed as a Zen sensei (teacher), making him the first North American Trappist to be both Catholic monk and authorized instructor of Zen. Jesuit Yr. Robert Kennedy, a Zen roshi (master) and Hunt’s most recent teacher, oversaw the installation.
The monk’s accomplishment, after years of study, represents an intimate East-West union within one Catholic religious and drew letters of commendation from the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism, and Yr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, superior general of the Society of Jesus.
Hunt’s achievement is “one that we can all celebrate in thanksgiving to God,” wrote Kolvenbach.
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Tony,
I’ve been very open about my feelings about the TEC. I go there whenever I’m home. There’s much to love. But at the time I as an evangelical most need them (and several other mainlines) they are heading left with all haste, leaving many evangelicals like myself to make the choice of staying where we are in the wilderness or going to a church where we must defend Gene Robinson as a legit bishop and a lot of other nonsense.
The via media is a great idea, but I’m starting to wonder if the reference points for the true center have gotten lost.
peace and appreciation
ms
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Christopher K,
I appreciate the ‘genuine’ sentiment…”eh, so enlighten us” As if I can explain the glories and sins of Anglicanism in a blog comment. Steering poor Michael’s post far too off topic.
What seems to be unbeknownst to most evangelicals, is that there are millions of orthodox Anglicans outside of Africa, and there are plenty in TEC. But that doesn’t make for good news unless it is rubbing in the current (sinful) lawsuits, or the bigoted anti-gay rhetoric of some bishops.
All I’m sayin’ is that TEC, and the Mainline in general, is an easy target for obvious errors. But low church evangelicals could also be made a target for their obvious lack of theological credentials, which they can check at the gate as long as they check an “inerrancy” box. I’ve heard some of the most un-christ like and unregenerate attacks out of the mouths of the supposedly orthodox.
anyway. Sorry imonk, I understand if this doesn’t make it on the site.
tony
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This is what happens when you let people like John Shelby Spong be leaders in your Church.
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Michael, it’s even worse than you think.
Not alone have the Druid-Episcopalians been persecuted (one priest left altogether though I am unsure if his wife, also an Episcopal priest, is still in ministry) but they are now moving on to the Buddhist-Episcopalians.
The Bishop-Elect of Northern Michigan went through a perfectly normal selection process (he had been running for years the ‘Mutual Ministry’ model they decided to use in order to select the next bishop, trained and/or knew all the folks on the Discernment team, was a member of that team, and the team finally decided that his and his alone would be the only name put forward at the diocesan convention for the ‘election’ – nothing untoward at all there!) and now, simply because he is walking the path of Zen Buddhism and Christianity simultaneously, simply because he re-wrote a Eucharistic liturgy or two, simply because he dumped the Creed in the services he presides over, the bigots are out to get him and already ten bishops have said they will not consent to his election!
What kind of crazy witch-hunting backwardness is this, I ask you? 😉
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adhunt, enlighten us. Honestly, I’m not as familiar with either of those. What is it we do not know that we should?
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Correction: The Zen Buddhist has not yet been formerly elected bishop. This is expected to happen in the summer. And he now denies that he is Buddhist.
The “Taoist-Episcopal Church” in San Francisco that I mentioned was *probably* St. Thomas’s. (Memory hazy.) They don’t seem to have a website, unfortunately.
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the misunderstandings of Anglicanism, and even The Episcopal Church, on this blog are sometimes astounding.
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About once a year, someone in the TR academy goes completely haywire over me. It’s been going on since 2006. Trust me, those of you who want an audience, the evangelical world is never boring.
It also has no qualms with women teaching men, as long as its on the internet and I’m involved.
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Everyday Mommy and the formerly Rev. Ann Holmes Redding are like two sides of the same stupid coin: Mommy’s an anti-ecumenical crow, and Redding’s a religion-equivocating loon.
I do like that she’s completely obsessed with you though, Michael. 8 posts on her blog, including a COMMISSIONED CARTOON, and she’s still hovering around you, shrieking about ‘beads’ for attention? That’s some INTENSE envy you’ve inspired, brother; make no mistake, that kind of raving is other than a deadly sin, folks.
As for Redding, I do think there’s something curiously self-indulgent about claiming to be a member of two religions – after all, when most of us can barely figure out how to follow ONE Jesus, she’s sort of making herself the ‘star of the show’ in a weird way, and making that kind pretense to enlightenment is odious. I believe some people are spiritual virtuosos, but it strikes me as twisted but altogether expected that the people who are ‘famous’ for this kind of ecumenism tend to be flighty and attention-whorish when you get close enough to peel away their rhetoric.
Common theme here: sad, fallen people, clamoring for a certain kind of recognition.
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Bruce,
It is a sign of the breakdown of episcopal doctrine that one of their own leaders can’t even see the ridiculousness of this. Maybe it is a sign of hope that one of their leaders, the bishop, actually COULD…
Either way, this is material for a media feeding frenzy. Interesting things will come as a result, no doubt.
As a Messianic Jew, I’m waiting for the Jewish crowd to ride the wave saying, “See? Christians realize you can’t be a muslim and a christian at the same time – now if only those Messianics would get a clue too..”
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Which group will, or should be, the first to stone this apostate, heretic from the standpoint of both religions?
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Wait? You mean that’s a real news article and not a joke? *shakes head* I’m surprised the EC had the backbone to defrock her.
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Ah, wait, you were being sarcastic. Sorry, I was a bit late to catch on 🙂
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How can an Episcopal diocese in Rhode Island defrock anybody for anything?
I mean, if doctrine means anything, one cannot affirm Muhammed as the Prophet and Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, God Incarnate and raised from the dead.
But the Episcopal church (except for the African group) is not know for doctrinal purity–to say the least.
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I’m fine with those of you who want to have a serious discussion of this post, just be aware that I didn’t start a serious discussion, but a bit of a lark.
peace on ya
ms
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I understand the beauty that this woman saw in the islamic cleric whose faith inspired her to become a muslim. There is a richness and humility associated with islamic worship that I wish more christians would see and appreciate. But, as far as whether or not one can be both a christian and a muslim, there is much more to the issue. While I see no problem in calling on both Allah and Yahweh, viewing them as two different names for the same God (and this *is* debatable, but I can suspend that debate for the sake of this post) the real problem with being a Muslim Christian has to do with the Koran vs. the Bible’s testimony of Jesus/Isa.
If you are a Muslim Christian, what do you do with this?
“…Allah forbid that He should have a son.” (Qur’an 4:171)
“It is not meet for God to have children.” (Qur’an 19:92)
“He begets not, nor he is begotten, and there is none like unto him.” (Qur’an 112:3)
And what do you do with this? –
“They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” ….
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy) verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.” (Qur’an 5:72-74)
And most importantly, Islam denies that Jesus ever died on a cross, but rather that it was only made to LOOK like Jesus died on a cross when Judas took his place:
” That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not” (An-Nisa 4:157)
How can one proclaim that Muhammed (pbuh) is God’s prophet when Muhammed (pbuh) denies the Son of God? How can one make such a profession and still be a follower of Christ?
Like I said at the beginning of this, I have a deep appreciation of many muslims that I know and the deep reverence and beauty of many aspects of their faith. But for all that beauty, I know one whose face outshines it all… and could never deny Him by making a profession in Muhammed (pbuh.)
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P.S. Here’s a story about an Episcopal bishop who was also a Zen Buddhist (and got accepted anyway):
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,7816,0,0,1,0
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Let’s all just join hands….
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I happen to know that at least several Witches (Wiccans and Neo-Pagans) are studying in Episcopal seminaries, with the intention of seeking ordination. Since they tend to be more secretive than the Muslims, it may be some time before anyone catches on. That is, assuming that their bishop is opposed.
For that matter, San Francisco used to have (and maybe still has) a “Taoist-Episcopal” church.
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Michael, I’m feeling the ecumenical love.
Did you know that was Mommy’s 1,666th post?
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RC:
After 8 years, every comment could come with two contradictions and various hypocrisies. The search engine is our friend.
The humor in this situation is not particularly high octane. The woman is ridiculous. I’m sure she’s a wonderful person, but her Holy Trinity/Allah/Jesus/Mohammad salad is not only a bad recipe, it ruins all its ingredients.
BTW, the last sentence in the post is the funniest. The only thing funnier would have been to ask the current bishop of the TEC if one could believe all the postions of both herself and Sarah Palin.
Badda bing.
peace
ms
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I like this blog for a lot of reasons, and one of them is this:
iMonk 3/15/09 (Riffs – How the Left Perceives Evangelicals)
“I am prepared to appreciate those aspects of a person that I deeply disagree with, if their views are an expression of integrity. The most important aspect of any competition is the handshake before the game, and the civil acceptance of the results of each play.”
In some sense, I view and appreciate this blog more for a role model than for a source of content. One of the reasons I don’t like sarcasm is that it leaves nothing to discuss. There are no direct statements made, only expressions of disapproval, and the conversation is at a dead-end.
Anyhoo, feel free to delete.
And if I’d known there would be prizes, I would have posted more often. 😀
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RC
You can be sure that iMonk has never experienced sarcasm directed at him, his beliefs, his writings, his choice of ads on his blog page, his choice of blog photo, or . . . . 🙂
I personally liked this from the linked article:
“Coming from an example of wanting to be Christ-like and coming from the perspective of wanting to follow the best example — the example of our prophet Mohammed — it all makes sense then,” Benjamin Shabazz said.”
You learn that:
Mohammed the prophet was the best example of wanting to be Christ-like!
It all makes sense now.
Wow
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Ohhhh… I’ve been lost in ecumenicism too long to remember that the “I” in that statement is supposed to be Jesus and not just a clever turn of phrase.
But I’m surprised at you, iMonk… I thought you hated theologians. 😉
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Muslims don’t believe Jesus was Yahweh.
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Yep, I don’t see any contradiction in the following two statements. Do you?
“There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.â€
“Before Abraham was, I AM.â€
I know most of these comments are sarcasm but I honestly don’t see any contradiction between those statements. Christians don’t accept the first one, but Muslims accept both. Right?
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RC: Since you cornered me, I left your post. But it’s neither funny nor on topic, so you don’t get a prize.
All: Now this….this is funny. (8th post in a row, if you’re counting.)
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They didn’t become Methaterians
Good thing. I’ve heard you can get addicted after one time!
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Isn’t a Jehovah/Allah combination a hypocrite?
“Love YOUR enemies” but “Strike fear into the hearts of mine.”
Just quoting him directly.
I’m glad TEC had the ganas to finally stand up to something. I have hope for them…
I once knew a Methodist and a Presbyterian church that combined to build a larger building and one congregation. They didn’t become Methaterians, though. When questioned how she reconciles the two theologies, the pastor replied: “Oh we don’t worry to much about that around here.”
I think she left there to work for TEC.
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Clearly, the woman’s interpretation of doctrine was incompatible with her position as a minister. However, I wonder of the moderator would be so tolerant of sarcasm if it were directed at his beliefs.
@Bill Pfister, google the word ‘Sufi’
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I am SO glad the bishop did not allow this “priest” to continue in nonsense.
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I’d like to see the ex-priestess in question visit Saudi Arabia and proclaim her message there in a local mosque. I wonder if they’d take as long to handle this issue as the Episcopal church took?
At least the Muslims don’t have to worry about a faction in their camp wanting to believe all religions are the same.
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“In this time of division and disagreement, we need to affirm those who are different. We need to embrace our diversity. Jesus and Mohammed would have embraced the courage of this young woman who refused to see differences when there were so many similarities.”
How long before someone fails to get the humor?
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Afterall, if we discarded all theology and just focused on a religion of good behavior (or there were no religion at all) we would obviously all believe and act by the same moral and ethical standard and the earth could finally have peace. Foolish tribal Episcopalians.
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The gospel taken to a new low! Bunch of bigots, what were they thinking? Why not celebrate our similarities rather than split hairs about our differences?
When will we stop being so critical? If you’re an aesthetically challenged young male, you might be tempted to blow yourself up on a crowded bus to rest in the bosom of the eternally promised 70 virgins in paradise.
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From the article:
“Both religions say there’s only one God,” Redding said, “and that God is the same God. It’s very clear we are talking about the same God! So I haven’t shifted my allegiance.”
Yep, I don’t see any contradiction in the following two statements. Do you?
“There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”
“Before Abraham was, I AM.”
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Wow, I come from a church background where this sort of decision would have been made a lot faster than it seems to have happened in the TEC. Since I’m in Seattle I saw the initial local coverage about this and totally forgot about it.
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Both wore sandals. Both had navels . . . thus almost the exact same!
Being in the Seattle area, I saw this story on the local market yesterday (CBS reporter . . . who also worked for ABC, wink, wink). As open minded as I am . . . this one was a no-brainer. Relativism taken to the extreme . . . seated on the throne in Notre Dame as the new goddess of religion.
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