God Isn’t Gamey: My New Hot Button

151 thoughts on “God Isn’t Gamey: My New Hot Button”

1. And don’t EVEN get me started about “rhema words”…

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2. I feel like I’m intruding here with the conversation and trust the iMonk to email me to take it offline if he wishes. My email is roman dot hokie at gmail dot com.

   But for now, if there’s anyone still in this comment thread, then may God be glorified by our search for truth on this and may we and anyone else be blessed as well.

   I don’t know if I’m really all that confident, honestly. I’m learning to ask more questions than to assume whatever is told to me is true for what God has for me.

   Much of my Evangelical (which I’m post- now) background has not at all been centered around hearing God speak to the individual, but rather seems more mystical in the fact that people just “know what to do” which may or may not be legitimately God speaking to them, but more of a “this is what I’m expected to do and how I’m expected to act”. So, I’m a bit new (2 years now) to hearing from God personally. I wish I had experienced it sooner, but I was one of those who said, “Yeah right!” when someone commented that “God told me…”

   I would, personally, love someone in leadership to say, “Ya know… I just don’t know.” But add to it a, “Let’s walk this out together.” When iM says “wilderness”, sadly, there are times when it’s lonely except for me (black sheep), the wolves and the snakes. 🙂

   I’ll admit, I have not read DKotS yet, but it’s been talked very highly about, so I’m adding it to my reading list.

   My evangelical experience HAS been about “doing” rather than listening and enjoying the voice of God. The last congregation we were a part of started to introduce (some of the mission teams) “listening prayer” like it was something special. It IS special. But more like it had a special purpose and time. Folks were amazed at the stories told about the answers to that listening prayer, but nobody seemed to think it was available to all who believe. I do hope I am not coming across as dismissive… I was and am actually quite discouraged over the doubt. After all, Jesus said, “My sheep will hear my voice.” But we have forgotten…

   I would not put myself in the charismatic bent (maybe I am… I don’t know… but there are a few charismatic traits that I’m still unfamiliar with, anyway), but I do acknowledge the reality of spiritual warfare in a very personal sense. I also do not “overplay” its role in my life because no weapon that’s fashioned against me will stand. And I already have the victory in Christ. But I need to remember regularly to bring the cross between me and others for grace and for the Kingdom of God.

   I believe, ultimately, that tips, techniques, guidelines, formulae, and rules actually strip the relationship (any that we’re in, not just our relationships with God) of its intimacy and power. If God will give us 10 things to do and 10 things that he doesn’t want us to do… then we don’t need Him. In fact, I’m willing to bet there are some who, once given these two lists, won’t want Him. Relationships are disruptive. God might ask us to do something radical like start a new profession at the age of 36, take about a 50% pay cut, and go back to college to do it. 🙂

   But, to seek like, we must die. Die to what we’re “sure” of. Die to what we “know”. And die to anything that doesn’t look like relationship with God. That’s a hard thing to do without fear.

   Looking at Scripture, we have several examples (not exceptions 🙂 ) of God speaking to people. Moses. Abram. Noah. Daniel. Jesus. And all of them had their lives turned upside down by listening to Him. By having a relationship with Him.

   It’s like The Matrix (a perfect example of this). “This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.”

   And yes, I cry whenever I see and hear Morpheus say that to Neo.

   The one thing that Morpheus DOES with Neo that seems to be missing from a portion of evangelicalism today is discipleship. I’m not talking about encouraging someone to pray, have quiet times, find a Bible Study, and join an accountability group or prayer partner group. I’m talking about, “Walk with me and I’ll show you how to really walk with Jesus.”

   I’m WAAAAAY off-topic. Too much caffeine today. Please forgive me.

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3. thanks Derek, I am also enjoying the conversation

   I wish I had your confidence when you say that “I don’t think that our actions or whatever else we might be having going on will cause God to be silent with us”.
   I am not sure of that.

   But I do think that there can be other things going on which are due to what we do, or don’t do which can cause us to experience silence for a season. I am not talking about people who have never heard from God, I am talking about people who believe that God speaks to us personally, believe that they have heard from Him in the past, and have an experience where they don’t hear from Him, at least for a season.

   Why is that? I don’t have a complete answer, still less a systematic theology. What I do know is that the standard Evangelical/post Evangelical answer (just try harder) does nothing to help people in that season, and can do a great deal of harm.
   I’ve heard a number of pastors and leaders run through some routine responses, but end up with an “I just don’t know”…first time that I have encountered this. I guess its kind of like lying in the hospital bed hearing the doctors discussing how rare your disease is, but not what they can do about it.

   Other traditions have something to say about this, in the Catholic contemplative tradition there is the description of the dark night of the soul by St John of the Cross. You know when A type evangelicals start reading the Dark Night of the Soul that their own action orientated tradition has failed them. So there is this contemplative idea that God allows us to go through a time of silence as part of a spiritual refining process. What do we protestants make of that? Is that God keeping silent? How do you know that that is what is going on? And what do we do? St John seems to say that some people are in that for the rest of their earthly existence.

   There is another idea, that at least some charismatics might suggest, that sometimes we don’t hear well because there is intense spiritual warfare. Its usually coupled with the idea that there is some specific spiritual dynamic, not always directly related to us. I’ve lived in San Francisco and its harder to hear there, so the idea resonates.
   But how does it feel to be pawn in the battle? How do we avoid the danger of thinking we can fix this with some technique, and so twist ourselves into knots trying to figure it out.

   It may seem like these occurrences are rare, I know that many Christians that I have encountered are content to dismiss them as exceptions and stick to their formula’s. But these are God’s people we are talking about, each one uniquely valuable to the Kingdom. What is the Kingdom losing if the church cannot or will not help people experiencing this silence?

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4. Windblown, I’m enjoying the convo, too. But I think that hearing from God might (stress might) be due to something we’re doing or what we’re not doing. After all, if we don’t hear from a friend in a while, perhaps we’re too busy, distracted, not really paying attention.

   I don’t think that our actions or whatever else we might be having going on will cause God to be silent with us. He did that once, when Jesus was on the cross crying out, “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. The point is he’ll never do that again. a) requiring atoning sacrifice and b) turn his back on his children.

   For me, I don’t hear from Him often enough. But then again, I don’t go to Him to hear from Him often enough. I have about 4 hours in the car per week to commute to my 2nd office twice in that week. I constantly have my iPod on with some sermon or some post-Evangelical radio show or something else where I’m driving and listening to audible stuff. Good stuff, but audible “man” stuff. So, I’ve been challenged by a friend to spend at least 30 minutes of those drives (first once a week), in silence, to listen. To “be still and know that I am God.” as the Scriptures tell.

   And it’s hard. Really hard. I have a short (10 minute) prayer routine I’ve been doing first, just to help center my heart on hearing. Sometimes it works. Sometimes, it doesn’t. The point is that I don’t let the enemy get into the time and take me out of seeking God. I do not let him condemn me for “failing”. Because I don’t see it as failing. And that is a hard point to get to. Just like when I was a kid, sometimes my friends could play outside with me. Sometimes they couldn’t. And sometimes I had chores to do which made me want to play with them more. 🙂

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5. Pingback: moralistic Christianity: a rant « listening to the wind

6. Derek, thank you for your gracious reply.

   I certainly didn’t meant to take you to task, but to point out how others might hear you.

   I’ve also failed to be clear. I am not concerned solely with the idea that the only reason we don’t hear God is sin, I am also concerned about the idea that the only reason we don’t hear from God is because of something we are either doing or not doing.

   Now I don’t hear you saying that. I hear you saying that one reason that we might not hear God is because we don’t expect to hear from Him, we consider our lives too trivial.

   And I agree that can be a reason. Of course I think that there are other reasons too, and not all of them have to do with what we as individuals do or don’t do. This may not be an issue for some but for some of us we have been given the impression that its always about what we do or don’t do. And thats not just incorrect, its life destroying.

   thank you for the conversation

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7. Windblown, I’m not at all speaking of the specifics of sin, but rather of business in our lives. Of thinking that something is too small for God to WANT to speak into.

   It was thoughtful and certainly NOT meant to say, “if you don’t hear from God, you’re in sin.” I believe that, rightly or wrongly, I can hear God in my sin, too. After all, God speaks through the Holy Spirit, who convicts (not condemns) us of sin.

   Not hearing from God isn’t, if I understand correctly – and in my own limited experience = the result of sin. It might be from not believing we GAN hear from him. I came to faith 13 years ago. Never believed I could hear from God and that people who claimed to hear from him were either a) crazy or b) headed for the nearest cult that would love bomb them enough to get them in the door.

   I was wrong. I started hearing from Him back in 2007 (perhaps before that, but it was solidly 2007) while I was at a men’s retreat that actually included about 3 hours of silence during the weekend (4 total periods of silence) to go hear from God and how ot prepare for it.

   forgive me, Windblown, and anyone else who took my tone to be one of condemnation and/or judgment.

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9. Derek, you quoted Michael when he said:
   How many people literally BEG God to show his will to them and he’s silent?

   and you responded “I’m not sure God is ever silent…
   But, I think we’re not always tuning in to listen.”

   Its hard to judge tone on the web but I hear you saying this slow and kind of thoughtful, and speaking with honesty from your own journey. So I’, assuming that it will come as a surprise to you how what you are saying might sound to others. Because the claim that its somehow always something that we are doing wrong which results in our missing it can sound like a major guilt trip, especially when it comes from a leader to people who are in immense pain, pain because they have begged God to know his His will, pain because they feel abandoned, feel that they alone in all the world do not get to hear from God.

   One doesn’t need to construct a theology which denies that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God in order to have other explanations for silence; for Christians who believe that God is sovereign then it seems that He must be able to choose to be silent, or post charismatics like me there is the possibility of enemy action.

   So insisting that an experience of silence from God is then guaranteed to create a double bind; because we know that we always miss perfection one way or another with God we can always find something that we didn’t do, or did do, or didn’t do right, and so we can always engage in endless contortions trying to get it right, and at the same time know no matter what we do does not work, indeed we have to acknowledge that what we (or most of us) do cannot by definition control God.
   I don’t think thats a healthy place to be and that is what I hear Michael saying.
   Because if our relationship with God is marked by an endless process of trying to hit the right formula with God, knowing all the time that we cannot then its not going to be life giving.

   A former pastor use to lay this double bind on me, probably because he was under it himself. He’d quote “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” and then he claim that if you were in silence then by some kind of evangelical syllogism you were therefore not experiencing grace and therefore must be one of the proud. One day I looked up those verses (its an NT quote of the OT) and came to understand that the word used for humble in both Old and New Testament refers the afflicted, the suffering, and who is more afflicted than those who seek to hear from God and are met with silence? Job insists that its not about what he was doing wrong, and his friends insist that it must be. Job didn’t buy and neither do I.

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10. ekim,

    I would say a person of the like may not be open to anyone saying anything to them. It can be quite powerful to say God told me to do this and that.

    So it is up to us when we think God is urging us to do something to proceed with caution. I can only be responsible for myself.

    If you are asking for my guidance I would say God doesn’t violate His own rules so if it goes against the Ten Commandments it isn’t God. Is it life giving? Is it something you want to do? Can you be honest and say, it’s something I want to do and I hope God want me to do it too. There is nothing wrong with that if if meets with the above.

    Are you saying God wants you to do it to get your way? Be honest and look at the situation. Are you manipulating someone? Do you just have to? Or ‘they just have to’.

    Just some ideas.

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11. …and what would you say to someone who suspects their mind of such tom foolery…?

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12. God is a God of silence. It doesn’t mean He can’t speak, even in English (imagine that). If you are hearing voices you need to have your head examined. If you think God is leading, nudging you to do something you need to check it out with a mature Christain or Spiritual Director. We are not on our own here. If we are we are listening to our own internal voice.

    I am not sugesting there are not supernatural phenomina. I am sugesting they are rare, personal and a beautiful gift. They can be reflected on as a means of faith for an indivdual. A person believing they have received such a gift needs to be in Spiritual direction. Please remember our minds can be powerful in conviencing us God wants me to….

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13. I’ll have to check that out then, iMonk! Thanks. I don’t recall seeing it, but then again, my memory means nothing. 🙂 If I could deny stuff because I didn’t remember, I’d be in a lot less “trouble” than I tend to find myself getting into.

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14. Both the Psalms and Job say that God is sometimes silent.

    Michael Card has done excellent work on the idea of the silence of God, along with a great song by Andrew Peterson.

    I don’t listen well, but when I am on the floor begging God for help I cannot be left with some idea that God is waiting till I jump through a hoop. It’s far more helpful to say “God has nothing to say about this specifically. I need to act on what he’s said that I do understand.”

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15. Michael, you said:

    How many people literally BEG God to show his will to them and he’s silent?

    I’m not sure God is ever silent. I don’t hear Him as often as I would like (I want more of God and less of me, to be honest, and it’s been a long road to get to this point) because I walk in my own woundedness and not often enough in His strength.

    But, I think we’re not always tuning in to listen. It’s like your podcasts. You turn them out to listening wanderers in the post-evangelical wilderness (TM) week after week. You still speak. Whenever people feel led or that they have time or really have a need to hear an episode of the longest running internet soap opera (TM), whatever the reason, we’re drawn to you. Sometimes, not unlike moths to a lightbulb (lightbulbs don’t kill moths like gas flame does!).

    So, we listen to you on our schedule and you speak on your schedule. It’s asynchronous, but then again, it’s not live. Blogging, as you know, is the same way.

    So, I don’t believe God ever shuts up. And that’s not a bad thing. The disappointing part is that I want to hear from Him more.

    I just don’t let NOT hearing from him debilitate me into a state of paralysis and fear.

    And sometimes, I believe God really says, “You know what? You decide.” But it’s not like He doesn’t care. Kinda like when I took my daughter to get some fish. Just watching her pick out the ones she liked was a process of childlike wonder and beauty. And I think God sees us like that, too.

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16. samb:

    I appreciate your concern, but this grows out of deep pain in my own life. Literally wasting decades of my life with this issue. How many people literally BEG God to show his will to them and he’s silent? I realize it makes a great testimony to say you asked God a hundreds times and on 101 he came through, but this is not helpful to me in understanding God. It goes in the category of “God plays bizarre games with people, and the really spiritual ones hang in there till it makes sense.”

    James 1:5 is absolutely true, but ut doesn’t specifiy things like fleeces and signs. I said in the post if God wants to speak to me he can. He can do it any way he chooses.

    “He doesn’t care” means he doesn’t care if I serve him in Rwanda or I serve in Tanzania. Again, if he does, he can open one door and shut another. I don’t have to torment myself looking for a sign or solving some puzzle.

    No one is affirming deism, i.e. that God has nothing to do with the world. I said he sovereignly rules the world. What I said was that I don’t need to approach God as if he’s holding out and playing games. I can be straightforward and assume that whatever happens- even if I make a mistake- God’s plan for me is still good.

    ms

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17. Wow Michael, after reading most of the comments here, I can only think your post has become a haven for Christian deists. I agree with you to a point, yet in my experience, the problem with finding God’s will is usually with me and not with God unwillingness to reveal it to me. God’s definitely not “gamey,” but I am often disobedient. Usually (but not always) of my frustration with not “knowing” God’s will can be traced back to my disobedience of one or more of the following Biblical principles:

    1. Asking with perseverance (James 4:2, Luke 18:1)
    2. Asking in faith and not with a heart inclined to unbelief (James 1:6)
    3. Asking earnestly/fervently (James 5:17)
    4. Asking without long gaps between prayer sessions (1 Thes. 5:17)
    5. Asking while living a corresponding holy life (1Peter 3:12)

    To be honest, some of your statements make me a bit uncomfortable. When you suggest, “What God communicates by his Spirit to me in mystical ways…I know God does this, but I am really… [not] expecting God to do it” – how is this not in contradiction to James 1:5, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him”?

    You (and some of the commenters) also stated, “I don’t think he cares.” That just seems so wrong to me. Take Christ as an example. Which day passed that He didn’t receive guidance from God? Scripture says, “Morning by morning he awakens; he awakens my ear to hear as those who are taught.” (Isa 50:4). Why can’t such daily guidance be our experience as well?

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18. Regarding Becky’s comment on offered popsicles, I think it is possible to err to the other extreme and believe that God is somehow too busy or important to be interested in ANY of our life choices as if the “minutiae” of our petty human lives are of no concern to a high-minded deity such as Him.

    However, Jesus made it crystal clear in the Sermon on the Mount that Father God IS aware of and sincerely interested in the day-to-day details and needs of our lives such as food, clothing, shelter, and the like. Furthermore, he later told his disciples that not even a sparrow falls to the ground with the Father knowing it and that the very hairs of their heads were numbered. That implies an extremely high level of personal interest in us on God’s part. When I hear people say, “God really doesn’t care about that,” I cannot help but suspect that what they are really saying is, “I myself think that is a trivial issue,” and are then projecting their own disinterest onto God.

    I like to think of this way. Being an infinitely powerful being, God has an unlimited attention span and unlimited mental bandwidth. That being the case, each one of His finite children (or “sheep”) effectively has His undivided attention at all times, even when He seems silent or distant. God will never be too bored or too over-booked for me to come to Him in prayer with my concerns or just to talk about my mundane day. When the Bible says that we are now His children through faith, that is not intended as literary hyperbole.

    Now, that is not to say that there is a real point to me “seeking God’s will” over whether I should wear my blue t-shirt or green t-shirt to clean the garage; such a choice is likely to have no moral dimension or consequences to it. However, I see nothing wrong with praying for godly wisdom when confronted with a major choice in life such as choosing a congregation, a new job, or a spouse. After all, wasn’t Solomon’s request for wisdom and good judgment heartily approved by God? People should just not expect such prayers to be answered by miraculous events or angelic encounters as God’s will is now predominately revealed through His Word, the Bible.

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19. You inspired me to post something about it. Thanks! I just read a post here about someone wanting a review of 23 minutes in Hell. I had a pastor friend who says he was reading it. I just wondered why he would waste his time reading it. Not needed!

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20. This post is both interesting and persuasive. I am inclined to agree with you that the evangelical phenomenon of incessantly praying for God’s will is problematic. But I wonder how John would respond to your statement, “I do not want anyone trying to get me on board with anything using miracles as a method.”

    John 20:30,31
    Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    I am disagreeing with you. Just putting it out there for conversation.

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21. Carol,

    Some people are restless, and that is just who they are. To me, that isn’t sinning (unless you have taken a vow of stability ).

    I tend to be some what restless myself. (9 homes in 5 states in 19 years) But part of mine is I like keeping employed. GRIN

    Some of the best missionaries must have been restless too. Like the Irish monks who set out in a boat to see where they would end up.

    As far as pleasure being bad, that is just plain wrong. I’d check out the blog, “The Christian Monist”, you will find some interesting thoughts over there.

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22. Free will requires reason, planning, priorities, weighing of outcomes, considering contingencies, etc. I think we can only make decisions if we believe we have the capacity to make a decision and live under the grace which forgives a bad decision. That’s saying a lot in an age which invented vocabulary like, “epic fail”. The fact is, if you are a decision maker, you will make mistakes, and some of them will be “epic”. I don’t think we are truly human without this risk. Paul Tillich touches on this in “Courage to Be”, that one is not truly alive if insulated from any and all risk. Tillich also made a distinction about the American view of risk and failure: rather than seeing failure fatalistically, the American spirit gets back up and looks for the next opportunity. As American culture has grown more liberal, I think is also has become more fatalistic since Tillich wrote those words. This makes sense, if you consider that liberalism is living life without the need of God’s help, which is by nature graceless and legalistic.

    This is where the Gospel can reach our relativistic, amoral culture which doesn’t recognize sin but does understand unforgiveness. People live paralyzed lives of normality and blandness, in fear of standing out, falling down and being scorned, mocked, and ostracized for trying anything different…unable to even forgive themselves. I don’t think Christian culture rises above this morass, were good Christians prosper, and failure is evidence of sin in ones life or that one is double-predestined to perdition. The gospel message is not that there is a fool-proof way not to fail, but that if we fail, we have an advocate who intercedes on our behalf (I John 2:1).

    I think the problem is that we don’t really believe in all of this grace stuff after all, or that we believe that the way to protect against cheapening grace is to keep it locked away for special occasions – avoiding any risk of actually needing it.

    The rest of what I could say has already been said by iMonk here:

    https://internetmonk.com/archive/a-luther-quote-to-wake-up-the-sleepers

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23. This is a very straight forward, common sense approach to a potentially mystical subject. There have been times when I have had great clarity and certainty as to what I should be doing and the direction I should be doing it in. Also, there are times when I feel like a ship in the middle of an ocean in dense fog with a broken compass. Either way God has a way of showing up with His opportunities and provisions. To obsess over the details of God’s will could be just the symptom of over-stated self-importance.

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24. “Seeking God’s will”, in my humble opinion is a prosperous and Western pursuit. Being privileged recently to connect with many Christians from all over the world, I have found that very few are in a conundrum about what God’s will is. This was very refreshing to me, to witness people concerned with living in Christ, rather then trying to figure out how Christ wants them to live.

    You know, since the Bible kinda lays that out for us already.

    Also, “seeking God’s will” also seems to be, at times, a product of the consumer culture that we here in North America live in. As the gospel becomes water logged with self help jargon, “seeking God’s will” becomes a self improvement by-product. What better way to better yourself then seeking the ultimate will of your creator. Right?

    Though I am Canadian, a good dose of Abe Lincoln seems like a great way to end my thoughts…

    “I am satisfied that when the Almighty wants me to do, or not do any particular thing, he finds a way of letting me know it” – Abraham Lincoln

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25. Interesting thought. When people have ill befallen to them and other people ask them, “Well, did you pray about it?” does anyone consider the fact that God might want us to LEARN something about ourselves or about Him while we fall flat on our butts?

    Does anyone allow their kids to do stupid stuff in order to encourage the “lesson learned” scenario, or am I the only sadistic person here? 😛

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26. Cindy, I was in that boat for a long time about a few areas I was serving in. I went on retreat for a few days and God confirmed in me that I could step down from those things because He never actually called me to step up INTO those things. I had the prior mentality of “see a need; fill the need,” which (if I understand correctly) is not really Biblical at all. Not sinful, just didn’t really have good solid precedent to it.

    So, I stepped down. Music leading. Men’s Ministry. (the men’s ministry went without leadership after my resignation for over a year, actually) Elder board was more about my being on travel throughout the week and missing financial (elders serve on the governing board, too, at the church we were attending) and government meetings… I had the conviction of, “If you can’t be there, then step down”. Something God instilled in me.

    Anyway, last August, we also left congregational church settings, attending 2 church services since then. It’s lonely to find out your friends (even Christian friends) were fair weather (conditional), but the freedom I am experiencing with my family is immense, as is His love for us.

    One of the hardest things for me to learn as a Christian was that I have the right to say, “No. That really won’t work well for me.”

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27. Tim W: No.

    Just reviewed the web page. Wouldn’t be something I’d be interested in.

    peace

    ms

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28. Martha, the point is I don’t believe that we’re to do things simply because we’re asked. Further, I think there are people (well-meaning ones) in leadership positions in various capacities who expect a “Sure, yes, I’ll help where I’m needed.” No, I don’t think a “It’s not God’s will for me,” is necessary.

    But I do think we need to be excited about the things we’re doing. If not, why would we do them? (assuming we have a choice, of course)

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29. imonk have you ever blogged about the book 23 minutes in hell?

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30. …this is a quote from TomCottar.org ..”We serve the Lord of Paradox. A God of ‘impossible possibilities’. Resist your enemies and love them. Ignore hypocritical spiritual leaders and obey them. Forget what’s in your past and be careful to remember. Flee from evil and stand firm against it. Don’t judge and judge rightly. There is a mystery to be embraced in the Scriptures because, in the process, we discover God in a different way. After all, it is God who chose to reveal himself this way. The ancient Hebrews called it “halakic reasoning”–holding both strands of a paradox in tension and balance, and knowing that, with God, both sides must be true”.

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31. Good thoughts! In ten years of ministry, I’ve probably communicated the same ideas to people dozens of times, but it never seems to sink in. People follow my arguments. They nod and agree. Then the next week their back to praying in the same way. Maybe it’s our selfishness. We all like to think that God is going to single us out and give us some special personal revelation.

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32. DSY,
    If he did, he quoted Augustine, “Dilige et quod vis fac”, from his 7thhomily on the 1st Letter of St.John.

    Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good.

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33. Didn’t Calvin say something like, “Love Jesus and do whatever you want”? Two GREAT books on the subject: “Finding God’s Will: A Pagan Notion?” by Bruce Waltke, and “Guidance and the Voice of God” by Philip Jensen and Tony Payne, the people behind “Two Ways To Live.”
    DSY

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34. I am sort of in love with the Popsicle analogy. Of course a lot of times, I get as much from my pastor’s “Children’s Message” as I get from the sermon (and that’s not his fault; he’s a gifted preacher; I just still struggle with digesting meat after all these years; baby mammal that I am, I love that milk).

    – People never use negative results to prove they heard from God. Its always positive. Think God is telling you to apply for a job? If you get it, God must have spoken. If not, you didn’t hear right. Fiancee breaks it off and you weren’t listening close enough. Investment yields great results and God made the stock page fall into your lap that morning. All this proves is that we have an over-inflated opinion of God’s desire for our comfort and we use that as the dowsing rod for having heard from God or not.

    I love this. Look at Paul. God’s will was for him to be imprisoned and executed. Ooh, ooh, and I have a story. It’s a hard one to tell because I don’t want to be slagging off on other people, but I’ll give it a try sans slag.

    Okay, I’ve just deleted about 500 words. My slag is persistent The point of the story I can’t tell without sinning is that I was praying about my involvement at our church and how I wanted to quit certain positions, and assumed the guilt I was feeling about quitting was God telling me to stay. Then things got really bad — to the point where I could not stay and still love people at my church, and I quit. I’m starting to see that the guilt was empty guilt from my subconscious, and not God’s voice at all, and that the misery I’d been feeling in my position may have been God’s voice. Pain — God’s megaphone to a deaf world and all that. I was banging my head against a brick wall for months because I thought God wanted me to do it, even though it hurt. I now think the hurt was God telling me to stop banging my fool head.

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35. Our choices reveal our hearts, not to God of course but to us. It is in the way we choose, the things we choose that our inner self is revealed…to ourselves.Even then we only know in retrospect.
    If God guided us minutely, how would we ever know the inner truth of our hearts?

    God is pursuing our hearts not our success.

    Can God guide by special revelation? Of course.
    Are we often left on our own to make wise choices? Yes.
    Is God at work in the midst of our choices… absolutely.

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36. Don’t get me started, Tim. Oh my.

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37. I’ve made decisions that were mistakes in my life, and my friends asked me afterwards, “Did you pray about it?” It was as though the bad outcome of my decision automatically signalled that I’d done something wrong, like not prayed about it.

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38. RonP,

    If memory serves me,I believe that God is not even mentioned in the book of Esther.

    God is a God of silence. That doesn’t mean He can’t speak.He has verbalize in Bible stories. Personally, I don’t think that’s His usual way of communicating.

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39. When faced with the choice of which church to serve at, a pastor of ours put it this way:

    Often in life God gives us choices, and he doesn’t really care which one we choose. It’s like a parent holding out three popsicles to his son. Would you like red, purple or orange? They’re all good, you just get to decide which flavor you’re in the mood for.

    I think so much in life is like that, and whichever way you choose, God goes with you.

    For a great song about this topic, check out David Wilcox’s “Hold It Up to the Light.” Words below:

    It’s the choice of a lifetime – I’m almost sure
    I will not live my life in between anymore
    If I can’t be certain of all that’s in store
    This far it feels so right
    I will hold it up – hold it up to the light,
    Hold it up to the light, hold it up to the light

    The search for my future has brought me here
    This is more than I’d hoped for, but sometimes I fear
    That the choice I was made for will someday appear
    And I’ll be too late for that flight
    So hold it up – hold it up to the light,
    Hold it up to the light, hold it up to the light

    It’s too late – to be stopped at the crossroads
    Each life here – each a possible way
    But wait – and they all will be lost roads
    Each road’s getting shorter the longer I stay

    Now as soon as I’m moving – my choice is good
    This way comes through right where I prayed that it would
    If I keep my eyes open and look where I should
    Somehow all of the signs are in sight
    If I hold it up to the light

    I said God, will you bless this decision?
    I’m scared, Is my life at stake?
    But I see if you gave me a vision
    Would I never have reason to use my faith?

    I was dead with deciding – afraid to choose
    I was mourning the loss of the choices I’d lose
    But there’s no choice at all if I don’t make my move
    And trust that the timing is right
    Yes and hold it up hold it up to the light
    Hold it up to the light, hold it up to the light

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40. “I’m not impressed by people who demonstrate that they have a verse to turn any tragedy into an opportunity to say “God is doing this.” I prefer to see a tragedy as a tragedy. I’m not saying God is less in control. I’m not going atheist or blaming God, but he’s running the show and he allows tragedy. He doesn’t say, “Now show me you’ve trained yourself to say otherwise.” That’s sad. Maybe even sick.”

    THANK YOU. Sometimes I wish folks would just tear their clothes or wear sackcloth and ashes and not say a word to those whom tragedy has struck.

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41. Pingback: links for 2009-07-07 | The 'K' is not silent

42. I actually just read a book on this, “How then should we choose.” One of my professors (Dr. Huffman) edited it. Anyhow, my conclusion is this: for the most part, in most every-day kind of actions, simply take the principles of ethics from the Bible, do what’s right, and you should be fine. However, I cannot deny that God can (and does) order specific things from time to time — consider Paul trying to visit the country when the Holy Spirit prevented him. Was it wrong to go there? No, just not God’s plan. But this is only when God desires something more specific. So I might be a hybrid of two views on this one.

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43. I’ve always appreciated the wisdom of Ecclesiastes 9:10… “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.”

    Keeps me from thinking so highly of myself that I would believe God has some grand specific “wonderful plan” for me!

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44. I wouldn’t try to set any rules about how God does or doesn’t communicate His will to us. Being God and all, He’ll communicate with any particular person or group of people any darn way He wants. And I think it’s a mistake to expect Him to deal out such communications in an even and equitable distribution among all people. Like Queen Esther, God may have a very specific thing He wants a specific person to do at a very specific point in time — though, as in Esther’s case, He may not be very forthcoming with specific information about what to do. Or like Joseph, God’s will may become clear during a certain season of a person’s life, while not being so clear during previous or subsequent seasons of life. Or, as may be the case for most of us, God requires only that we live as good citizens of His kingdom, being all the more pleased with us if we don’t require a constant stream of signs and wonders to keep us motivated and between the ditches.
    I do share your distaste for what amounts to circumstancial divination — basically trying to read events and circumstances like the ancient pagan priests used to discern the will of the gods by examining animal innards.
    Overall, I suspect that if we genuinely strive to obey God’s will for our lives, we’ll end up doing so more often than not — even without Him telling us all the specifics about what His will is for every little thing.

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45. Lazarus,

    I’ve been sitting here pondering your post. I don’t like platitudes either so I’ll try not to do that.

    It sounds like you and your wife are going through some bad times. The circumstances are difficult and it doesn’t seems like God cares or answers your prayers. Or even hears your need.

    I didn’t really understand the last paragraph about the imminance or transcendance. Of Course God is always as close as our closest breath. Even though with what you have been going through it doesn’t seem that way.

    I would disagree with you on us not having the priviledge of challenging Him. I think lots of people in the Bible and most sincere Christians today challenge what seems to be unfair situations. And ask “why aren’t you helping me?” Many of Jesus’s parables are about people challeging and asking again and again. Even when He calls them dogs. “Even the dogs eat the scrapes that fall from the master’s table.” So I would say challenge away. God is big and He can take it.
    Another way of looking at it is to compare my bad situation to that of Jesus’s. Everything I am going through, He has been there, even badder and bigger. He does understand.

    You are right to say keep on living life the best you can. You may not believe me and that is ok but I know God does love you and cares about you.

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46. Good topic and good discussion. One that needs to happen in a lot of churches around the country. And not just Pentecostal. Baptist, Methodist, etc. Its everywhere. A few thoughts :

    – The idea of God giving you personalized direction is exciting. It makes you feel special. It makes God feel close and personal. Its not sexy enough to just do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly. Its makes much more of a splash when you can enter the conversation with a “God told me”.

    – By the same token, we feel sub-standard if we don’t “hear from God”. We’ve been taught that as we mature we will be able to hear God plainer and more often. That we’ll be able to filter out those other voices and discern that still, small one which is God’s. And if you don’t then you are not growing spiritually. This teaching, IMHO, is one of the worst lies we spread in the church today.

    – People never use negative results to prove they heard from God. Its always positive. Think God is telling you to apply for a job? If you get it, God must have spoken. If not, you didn’t hear right. Fiancee breaks it off and you weren’t listening close enough. Investment yields great results and God made the stock page fall into your lap that morning. All this proves is that we have an over-inflated opinion of God’s desire for our comfort and we use that as the dowsing rod for having heard from God or not.

    This is a hot-button topic for me as well but I think that’s enough for now. Thanks again for broaching the topic.

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47. I dont know if I agree with you completely on this or not. What Im certain of though is after playing out that cycle in my own life of “waiting on God and going to whatever comes available until I hear from Him,” over the last several years, I don’t think God cares. About the details of my life or any other person’s, certainly not my wife’s. As we struggle with one seemingly dire problem after another and seeing every prayer we offer up go unanswered or told “No” by way of unfolding events if God cared I think it would be apparent. And if I hear one more platitude about how God works in mysterious ways or He shuts one door to open another Im gonna write off the Church. I have yet to meet a person those ever helped cope with life.

    Seems like the core issue is the imminence or transcendence of God. Always a fun debate with atheists and buddhits(sp?) My answer is simple-keep living life as best you can according to what the Bible teaches-If God is or isn’t being ‘gamey’ doesn’t really matter-He’s the boss and we don’t have the privilege of challenging Him on anything-see Job.

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48. Wow – it’s as though you have been reading my mind lately! Then again, reading your blog has probably in one way or another lead me to some of the same hot buttons as you have.

    One of my favourite pastors – Charles Price, had a sermon recently about this very topic. He lamented how many people are paralyzed while asking “What is God’s will for my life”, instead of just making a minor revision to the quandary, and simply asking, “What is God’s will”. Nothing more, nothing less. When we strive to understand God’s will, we will know exactly what to do with our life. The sermon is entitled “Experiencing the Will of God”, and can be found at http://www.livingtruth.ca/media-resources.asp

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49. I think a lot of which is sold as spiritual is pragmatism is disguise: just follow this formula and “Bam!”, you’ve found God’s will. When these “spiritual” tricks don’t work, then people abandon the spiritual completely, and Dawkins laughs all the way to the bank.

    I am interested in the subject. I am actually studying on how to “hear” God speak to me. After swallowing a bad batch of pentecostalism years ago, I haven’t thought it was possible to personally hear God. Liturgy and structured prayer has been a safe place to hide from the subject; just follow the script and no one gets hurt. But even structured prayer is only meant to be an aid to lead us into personal communion with God; it was never meant to be a replacement. There are a lot of ways to interpret Hosea 4:6, but for me it goes along with Psalm 104:29. We need to hear God – not to tell us whether to have corn flakes or grits for breakfast, or even if we should take this job or that, marry this person or that, or stay or move. Maybe the problem is that we like Ahab only seek God’s voice in crisis – when we have to make a decision or get out of a jam. By then, it is too late.

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50. The thing that helps me stay on the right path as far as God’s will is concerned is remembering that He is my Father, and that He cares for me as his child. As a father myself, I found that I experienced great joy in watching my children grow, fall, get up, and make their way through their world. When they did wrong, I used appropriate correction – appropriate to their age and stage of development – with less and less of it needed as they matured. They (my children) did not need my constant permission to enjoy life. They learned naturally as they grew what things I approved of and what things I did not. I frankly couldn’t care less if they chose volleyball over soccer or reading a book over playing with barbies – I just loved them because of who they were.

    This is about the point where the analogy breaks down, but I think you see my point. God is a perfect Father, and I believe He has great joy in me loving Him whether I’m in Albuquerque or Bangor, a steelworker or an accountant.

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51. If ever there was an example of free will, it is Job.

    I refuse to believe that anything made in the image of God acts as a robot. Or that God would damn (or elect for that matter) someone before they were born.

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52. two thoughts:
    I tend to read Psalm 37:4
    4 Delight yourself in the LORD
    and he will give you the desires of your heart.

    with an emphasis on “desires” – i.e. He doesn’t give us what we already desire – He gives us Godly desires, and then delights to fulfill them.. if we are delighting ourselves in Him…

    On the other hand, God does seem like He’s playing games sometimes in the Bible…

    like the arrow hitting thing? that always seemed weird to me –

    2 Kings 13:18-19 Then he said, “Take the arrows,” and the king took them. Elisha told him, “Strike the ground.” He struck it three times and stopped. The man of God was angry with him and said, “You should have struck the ground five or six times; then you would have defeated Aram and completely destroyed it. But now you will defeat it only three times.”

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53. Ted,
    Good reminders. Yeah, I don’t think that Bright’s terminology, if taken out of context, and making Salvation a “transactional” deal where we say the “Sinner’s Prayer”, is being understood as he intended it to be. Neither is the “wonderful plan for your life”, I would hazard a guess.

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54. Michael,

    Thanks for yet again writing a straight forward take on a Christian topic that can be become a thoughtless panacea for so many.

    I think there are almost 6.8 billion people on the planet currently, and Lord knows how many from the past, and yet to be in the future. I think many of these people do not look like me, live like me, or have the prosperity that I have. I have wondered for a while how that fit into God’s will as so many people here in the U.S. seem to think about His will.

    I also wonder more as the years roll on how much me stubbornly holding on to my own free will, skews His perfect will for me and those I encounter. As a biologist I think that I understand that if He dropped me almost any place in this world on dry land, he has already given me what I need to survive. And I might even prosper if I shared and loved and cared. I don’t know that there is any other will to find.

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55. Derek, feel free anytime to add two cents.

    I agree that the gospel isn’t all about my personal salavation; and that I’d be selfish to think of it only in terms of fire insurance.

    The gospel is all about God, as revealed in Jesus (I am the way, the truth and the life); and the Lord’s Prayer should be our model (Father, hallowed be THY name; may THY kingdom come; may THY will be done…) It’s all about God–Father, Son and Spirit. My own salvation is incidental.

    And you’re right, the kingdom starts here, not at “graduation day” as Hal Hill used to say.

    I’m not much on tracts, in fact I think I used the Four Spiritual Laws only once, probably in 1980. But, I think this and other tracts can fulfill what Paul meant by being all things to all people in order to win some of them for Christ. If it works to get someone into the kingdom, great. If not, try something else, even a Greek poem, as Paul did; but above all focus on Christ.

    And, again (one more time), to keep to my original point, that Bright’s term “wonderful plan for your life” has been misinterpreted to mean a happy road map of God’s perfect will for our lives. I don’t believe it works that way, and I don’t think it’s what Bright meant either.

    God’s will is for us to follow him wherever it leads. Sometimes it’s more specific than other times–as you discovered about your master’s program in marriage and family counseling (post of 10:52 AM)–and sometimes we discover his will after the fact; but most of the time his will for us is simply to be faithful.

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56. Love God with all heart and do what you want!

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57. I really benefited from Kevin DeYoung’s book “Just Do something”.

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58. A timely post and discussion.

    I trust in the LORD who made heaven and earth and declared it all to be good.

    I have to keep my discernment simple: Choose life over death, light over darkness, followed by “Not my will but Thy will be done.” Act. Then note whether I experience consolation or desolation. Repeat as often as needed.

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59. “Okay…so God is gaming with Satan and not with Job. So what was Job, then? Hardly a willing participant in the initial parameters of the Game. For Job, I would hypothesise, it was play the game or well and truly die. “Curse God and die”. God allowed Satan to smite him. (Do I dare say, God smote Job??? Hmmm…)”

    God wasn’t toying with Job. He wasn’t looking for a set of certain overtures from him in order to unlock the secret to success or win the gold star. There was no IF A, then B set of conditions. Job was part of a set game, he was a pawn that was moved, but he moved exactly as was preplanned and/or as God anticipated he would move according to what he set in motion. For Job it was set course that he would wind through and follow precisely.

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60. Michael,

    Thank you a million times for this article. It seems a lot of younger people especially experience this vapor lock; so focused on finding God’s will for their lives, they don’t do ANYTHING. My advice has become to do something, even if it’s wrong. God can’t/won’t steer a stagnant ship.

    Besides which, praying so intensely to know God’s will presents two other problems to me: 1) it implies that He is up there waiting for us to deviate from His will so He can throw the lightning bolt; and 2) it ignores the fact that He has made His will abundantly clear for us. More often than not, we’re just not satisfied with the answers He provides for #2: “What do you mean I should serve in the nursery if they need volunteers or give that smelly homeless dude a ride to the park… I want to Change The World!” We don’t really believe in God’s will because our ideas of what it should be are so much more grandiose than what it really is: love God, love men.

    Aaanyway, thanks for vocalizing, once again, the things going on in my head, but doing it so much better than I ever could.

    Peter

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61. Just watched Stranger than Fiction Sunday night, although I haven’t pondered the spiritual implications that linger behind it.

    In an earlier comment some one said “We seek God’s will for our character,” but something keeps me from agreeing. If we are “seeking His will” (or “face” as I believe the comment was about) it should not be for OUR glory but for HIS glory. It seems like that is the point of our entire lives – to bring God glory. Do our choices, attitudes, habits, convictions, etc, etc, etc bring Him glory? If we could choose one road or another and both have the potential to bring God glory, then what difference does it make? Sure, hind’s sight is always best, but we were given that super-power we would never grow and mature.

    iMonk, I like what you had to say about tragedy being tragedy. I had a Bible class last year (the best ever in my 8 years of Christian school) and one of the things my professor addressed was lamentation and that as humans we need to lament. We can’t turn every sad thing into a sentimental “God will get us through” “God is working”, etc, and never grieve. Certainly he is and certainly he does, but grieving in no way lessens our faith Him. There’s an entire book dedicated to lamenting. I was told once that it is a sin to feel hurt, to lament that hurt. What a farce. God has created us emotional beings and if WE can grieve Him and grieve the Spirit, then how much more should we grieve when humanity and creation suffers.

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62. Wow, you touched a nerve with a lot of people. Count me a billion times on board with you. It seems to me every time God spoke in the scriptures, it was pretty freakin’ obvious to the hearers that God was speaking. The question was never, “was that God?” The question was, “now that He has spoken, are we gonna believe it?”

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63. Michael,

    This expression is like a big ole can of fresh air to me. I can almost breathe again.

    I’ve got the wanderlust in the worst way. I just want to move around and see things and look for that place where I want to put down roots. I thought it was Knoxville, but after 5 years it feels like it’s time to move on.

    But of course, over the years I’ve gotten it into my head that I can’t do this because “it isn’t God’s will.” It isn’t God’s will that I have the freedom to do what I want and live where I want.

    How does this happen? I could sum it up by saying, if I’m enjoying myself I must be sinning. If I’m doing what I want, I must be sinning. Even if there’s not thing one in the Word about restlessness being a sin. Is there?

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64. Hi, Derek! It’s great to be here with you! 🙂

    Okay…so God is gaming with Satan and not with Job. So what was Job, then? Hardly a willing participant in the initial parameters of the Game. For Job, I would hypothesise, it was play the game or well and truly die. “Curse God and die”. God allowed Satan to smite him. (Do I dare say, God smote Job??? Hmmm…).

    Anywho, Job rose to the Game by remaining faithful, after a fashion, to God. I remember when our Daughter announced her forthcoming Child (who was born 6 months after her Father died), my Husband proclaiming, “The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh…Blessed be the Name of the Lord!”

    But I digress…

    So Job was gamed with. Yet Job “won” the Game for God. So what do we glean from this? Does God game with us in the hardships of our lives? What do we then get out of this???

    In Genesis 22 Abraham obeyed God. The easy answer is that God would never ask of us what He Himself is unwilling to do. Even though He is God. Yet the picture he is substitutionary death. So…is this a game? Abraham wasn’t begging…or was he, in his heart, for God to DO SOMETHING because he could not see how God’s covenant promise to him could possibly be fulfilled if Isaac is killed…

    And as far as God expecting us to sit up and beg for some morsel from Him, is that presupposing that God doesn’t already give us something without our asking? Look around and see what amazing things we already have… Is “storming the gates of heaven” for something more a worthy thing? a waste of time? hubris? hutzpah? something else?

    Things that make me go “Hmmm…”

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65. Martha,

    Every need is not a call.

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66. Maybe it’s the will of God that I should be reading the Pope’s new encyclical, “Caritas in Veritate”, instead of arguing over discerning God’s will on a Baptist blog.

    How can I know? Who will guide me? Should I practice Bibliomancy? 😉

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67. Derek, but can’t you say “Okay, we need someone to supervise the nursery and seeing as I’m the only free pair of hands around and I’ve been asked, I’ll do it” without making a song-and-dance over “Oh, is this God’s will for me? I can’t decide unless I get a sign!”

    That’s the odd part for me – not being able to say either yes or no without discerning does God want you to have porridge or corn flakes for your breakfast.

    Okay, that’s petty. But there are things to do that surely we don’t need direct instructions from God to yeah, go ahead and do this (that is, more explicit instructions than “If you love me, keep my commandments” and “Love the Lord your God and love your neighbour as yourself.”)

    Now, if someone is at a definite crux in his or her life, I can see praying that God’s will be made clear, but I have to say – deciding to get married to a particular person because another person says “I have been given a prophetic message that you two should marry” strikes me as “Um – why does God particularly care if these two marry each other, instead of different partners, or not marry at all?”

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68. My human instinct is to see terrible things as terrible. I don’t have any theological response to not trust those feelings and say “Oh, but God is really using this.” He is. He does. But my part is to start with, “This is terrible and people are hurting/suffering.”

    Yup, kinda like the suffering people of Cincinnati, after what the Phillies did to the Reds on Monday… 22-1, was it? Ouch.

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69. Thank you all for the good discussion. This topic reminds me of the parables of Jesus, pretty much guaranteed to raise the heart issues of each one of us.

    Ed: “Whenever I hear someone speaking about seeking out God’s will, I can’t help but see it as an attempt to avoid some obvious path.”

    Perhaps that is case for you Ed, you had best decide that, you may want to hold off assuming that this the case for anyone else.

    truthinflux: “Tell me this is not a Christian code for “this is what I decided, and I want to seem really spiritual in my decision.”

    God’s will is probably is code for exactly quite a lot of the time.
    Not always though, I had an interesting experience a few years back, I was “seeking God’s will” and I really truly genuinely 100% did not have an idea of what that would be, or should be. I guess I was sweating it, struggling with this idea that God is playing some kind of game with us and we have to try really hard to guess what He wants.
    But in the midst of that, and hopefully I have matured since then, I really did lay down what I wanted out of life.
    The interesting bit is that the Christians I encountered simply refused to believe me, they accused me of actually having some hidden agenda of “really knowing what God wanted me to do” by which they meant in their own lives that they had decided to do something and they called that “God’s will”.

    Now if they had meant that God’s will was that they decided what they wanted and got on with it, within the guidance of Scripture, counsel and whatever wisdom God had given them, well and good, but they didn’t, and by “seeking God’s will” in the way that I was I was (unwittingly) pushing their buttons, and as you will have guessed they in turn pushed mine by inducing me to start a neurotic quest for the last vestiges of any wish, desire or inclination which might come from me not God. I am hoping that one day we’ll all get to laugh about this.

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70. Ted, I know you’re not asking me, but The Four Spiritual Laws are used as (although I believe in Bright’s original intent being much BIGGER than this) “fire insurance” than of actually inviting someone into the Larger Story that God is telling. And, I think many times, people come to faith when their life sucks and they are looking for something to give them hope. But the hope that Christ (as we all know) offers is oftentimes (falsely) put on heaven as opposed to the Kingdom of God here and now.

    Altar calls, Gospel tracts, etc, are all well and good, but they don’t tell the whole story that was Jesus’s life and purpose for being sent to us. Salvation was only a part of it. Sure, that’s where it started. But if we stop there, then we merely get to roll with the punches until we die. That’s a dim outlook on life and not the way the redeemed people of God should be thinking.

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71. “Finding God’s will” can have the underlying presupposition that God wants things to work out successfully. So wanting God to tell me which city I should move to has the subttext that if I make the right choice then a great job will be witing for me. Financial or personal success becomes the validator that it was God’s will, not growth in holiness.

    Another issue is that “finding God’s will” can be twisted into laziness. Why should I do the spade work on trying to find a job if all I have to do is close my eyes and “feel” God steering me to something that will drop in my lap? I know students in college who didn’t study, figuring that God would tell them the right answer since they had spent the time hanging out with friends in Bible study instead (this did not work very well). I do not know if God is currently Tweeting instructions to them as they work.

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72. Michael,

    I meant to point out that the misunderstanding and misuse of the term, “wonderful plan for your life” is more of a “flaw” than a law, and not what Bright intended. The pressure to discover God’s specific will is the question at hand.

    Although it’s not in this thread, I’d be interested to hear more about why you have major problems with The Four Spiritual Laws and why it tells only parts of the gospel (another thread maybe?). I agree that it could go farther, but it’s meant to be a short tract; and I think it’s at least accurate as far as it goes.

    I checked out Two Ways to Live: http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl/2wtlonline.asp
    Thanks for sharing that.

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73. I wish this had been around for me to read in college. I spent so many years fretting over what God’s will was in my career and relationships that I hurt both at times.

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74. “God was games with Satan. Not with Job. Job was never in a “What is God’s Will?” situation other than to continue to believe.”

    It’s pretty hard not to see how Job was in full understanding of his circumstances.

    You point out a deep and helpful irony here, Michael. Job was the one suffering and dealing with the horror of God’s will and, by and large, was accepting it for what it is: The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.

    But it was Job’s well-fed, trial free friends who were the one’s in denial about God’s will – which when revealed blew their theological paradigms out of the water.

    Brad

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75. God never told Job to discover “his will.” It appears that God was allowing Job to be tested. It was God’s game. Not Job’s. Job’s friends were the guys with the explanations for God’s will. God said they were wrong. Job just tried to be faithful, griped a lot, held on to his faith and finally decided to shut up and not try to explain God.

    God was gamey with Satan. Not with Job. Job was never in a “What is God’s Will?” situation other than to continue to believe.

    Now Genesis 22…there’s another story. Again, there’s no issue of finding God’s will. He just told him and a horrified Abe found a way to believe and be obedient.

    I don’t know what you mean by “game.” I mean “I’ll only show you my plan for you if you sit up and beg.”

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76. How do you justify God not being gamey with the story of Job?

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77. Ted: Would have to disagree with you on the 4 Spiritual Laws. I only hear parts of the Gospel in it. I have some major problems with that presentation. Much prefer Two Ways To Live.

    peace

    ms

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78. Dan, you’re right. This is good. I haven’t seen this kind of discussion in a brick and mortar in a long time. Usually too busy looking at the Youth Group’s heads (as we sat right behind them) and trying to figure out the lyrics of the song since the overheads were wrong 🙂

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79. My husband tends to think that way, which I find very frustrating. He stayed in a bad job that made us both miserable for years, saying all along that it must be where God wanted him or else He would open other doors. But why would God open any other doors if my husband wasn’t knocking (i.e., actively seeking another job)? Scripture tells us that God orders our steps and directs our paths, but that implies that you have to be moving forward first.

    If God can work all things together for good, doesn’t that include decisions that we make independently? Not that we shouldn’t pray about them, but to me, faith means trusting that He is in control in spite of what we do. As long as our motivations are pure and line up with His known will–loving Him, loving our neighbor, seeking first HIS glory–it’s okay to move without hearing from Him first.

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80. This is good. It is the type and manner of discussion that every congregation should have. This is church.

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81. “God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.”

    The booklet “The Four Spiritual Laws” is still a great tool for evangelism:

    Click to access 4laws.pdf

    However, the first of its laws (above) is often misused to pressure new believers into finding God’s specific will, a road map for all of life, and then all will be peaches and cream. I don’t think Bill Bright intended it that way.

    The “wonderful plan for your life” is simply to know the Lord, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, as in 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Beyond that, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself (Luke 10:27).

    Xenia, above at 11:33 AM, said it all in five lines. Go and do likewise.

    The pressure to find that non-existent road map of God’s will is similar to the challenge, “Do you have any unrepented sin in your life?” or “You need to get yourself right with Christ.”

    True, but… There are very often other factors that impede this and need compassion rather than judgment.

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82. Pentamom wrote:
    My pastor is fond of pointing out that even if there is a right answer and you get it wrong, God isn’t exactly expecting perfection from us anyway. The worst thing that can happen is that we do it wrong. In the final analysis, we do some (most?) of it wrong anyway. So why do we make a big deal over the possibility of making the “wrong” choice? Of course our desire should be to please God in the choices we make, but not because failure to get the right answer is somehow direfully unthinkable.

    The image this brought to mind is of an exam in school. There’s a question to answer. You might get the answer wrong. But if you don’t write down an answer, then you definitely will miss it.

    Not writing down an answer is akin to interminable “waiting on God” to reveal His will. Analyze the situation using your God-given brain. Pray for wisdom and direction. Pick a course of action. Ask God to stop you if it’s the wrong one. Then move forward.

    If you don’t get the answer right, at least you tried to answer. You didn’t just leave it blank.

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83. We can’t expect God to reveal new instructions for us if we’re not obeying the instructions He has already given us.

    Too many times we want God to reveal where He wants us in 5, 10, or 15 years, when what He is calling us to it so be faithful right now.

    When you’re at point A, you can see B well, you can see a little bit of C, but you have no idea where M is, much less Z. Just be concerned about getting to the next point, being obedient to what God wants from you at this moment. If you find yourself off track, go back to where you made a wrong turn, and get going in the right direction again. Then, when you get to L, you’ll be able to see M clearly just ahead.

    Paul didn’t start out his missionary journeys with a full itinerary planned and hotel reservations booked. He went to the next city he felt appropriate or logical. Sometimes the Spirit prevented him from going where he had first decided, rerouting him another direction. Once he had a vision of a man from Macedonia calling for help, but he didn’t have that vision until he was in Troas, where he could board a ship to sail there. If he had received the vision at the beginning of the journey, he may have tried to go straight to Macedonia, bypassing Derbe, Lystra, Phrygia, and Galatia, and losing the chance to minister to the people of those cities.

    http://bilingualbibleblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/where-are-you-headed-adonde-te-diriges.html

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84. Aoibhinn, good to see you here, sister. As always, you pose good, but hard questions. I’m listening.

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85. Ben, in that bit of scripture, Jesus explicitly told the man what to do. He didn’t wait for him to guess right by using the correct formula.

    It seems to me that Michael is saying that there are times when God will make something clear in ways that are not within our control, and other times when we can use the “practical” tools that He gives us to make a choice — knowing the scripture, seeking to please Him above all things, and praying, not as a magic formula to unveil what is clouded, but in faith that if we ask for wisdom, He will give it.

    My pastor is fond of pointing out that even if there is a right answer and you get it wrong, God isn’t exactly expecting perfection from us anyway. The worst thing that can happen is that we do it wrong. In the final analysis, we do some (most?) of it wrong anyway. So why do we make a big deal over the possibility of making the “wrong” choice? Of course our desire should be to please God in the choices we make, but not because failure to get the right answer is somehow direfully unthinkable.

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86. Thanks for sharing this. It was very helpful and freeing for this neurotic perfectionist.

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87. Possibly, Martha. However, what might be God’s will for one person might not be His will for another.

    For a leader to say, “We have a need in the nursery, please fill that need.” completely dismisses a person’s obligation to listen to God for himself and move with Him into and out of assignments or calling.

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88. Imonk I think your line of thought is great, I wish I read it ten years ago.

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89. Imonk:
    Thanks for this. I certainly agree with your points about God not being gamey, but what about Jesus’ interaction with the demon-possessed man in Luke 8? After Jesus freed the man, he begged to follow Jesus, but Jesus sent him home to be a witness of God’s grace. Both good choices, but Christ clearly willed the man to go down a certain path. As I struggle with choice A or B in my life, that bit of Scripture gives me pause.

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90. I think were all groping toward the image of God the best way we know how, sometimes we may get a supernatural nudge or even a kick, but most of the time it is in darkness and hopefully love.

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91. This is one I’ll be forwarding. Thanks Michael.

    I think the dynamic being talked about is somewhat akin to the “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life” stuff we hear so often. There’s truth to it, but the strong underlying message is that there is only ONE wonderful plan, one decision in which you will be in God’s will, and if you miss that, you’re hosed. Utter nonsense of course, but that’s what gets conveyed.

    I’ve seen very direct and specific answers to prayer, and even been part of an answer to such a prayer (though I had no clue at the time). So it does happen. But it’s rare. God isn’t generally a micromanager.

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92. I wonder if the “Pray until you find God’s will” advice isn’t more to do with the “I know what you should be doing, and if you don’t agree with me, pray until you do” attitude?

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93. Brother Bartimaeus. Free will isn’t about God wanting or not wanting us to walk with Him. The one thing that people cannot force another to do, no matter what the means of torture, etc, is to love someone. That’s what free will is about.

    We DO have the ability (permission) via free will to make our own decisions and to reap what we sow (both favorable and unfavorable consequences). But love without free will is not love. It’s duty and obligation. Check out “Epic: The Story God is Telling” by John Eldredge (Thomas Nelson Publishers).

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94. iMonk quote ~ “But this is not a game I am going to play with God. I’m not cooperating with what amounts to saying “God is toying with us to see what we’ll do.” If God wants to say something to me, no game is necessary. And I am not required to demonstrate my desperation to know God’s will to know it. There may be places in my journey I need to be before God’s will unfolds, but God isn’t being gamey. He’s not playing hide and seek. He isn’t constantly dangling guidance in front of me like bait.”

    I am confused, then: How does the story of Job fit into this? Was God gaming with Job in his wager with Satan? And, at the end of the day, who really won? God? Who already, in His sovereignty knew the outcome? or Job who learnt more about God, increased his trust in Him, and became holier in his humility and grace?

    When my late Husband was first diagnosed with ALS, we both fled to the story of Job and found succour there. For me, I suddenly found myself, at the age of 46, contemplating widowhood, whilst living with what appeared to be a perfectly healthy Man. I needed to understand God’s Will for my life because my Life had turned inside out, upside down, back asswards. What is happening?!? What is God doing!?! And for me, Job supplied the answers. As I prayed, and fasted, and clung to my weary faith, God answered. Follow Me. In the dark, around blind corners, one step at a time.

    God cares deeply about who we are, what we do. He counts the numbers of hairs on our head. Or am I naively clinging to a metaphor? an allegory? a parable? rather than a truth.

    Seek and keep seeking. Knock and keep knocking. I believe this is the meaning of the original language. Not because it’s hard to get God’s attention, but because we need the discipline of looking to God first before necessarily relying on ourselves and our own strength.

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95. Love God.
    Love your neighbor.
    Be humble.
    Pray often.

    Do these things and you will be in God’s will.

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96. I also don’t understand the preoccupation with understanding God’s Will. If he wanted us to always follow it, why would he give us Free Will?

    I think that God’s Will is what we perceive as chaos theory. A lot is going on all at once and our tiny brains can’t begin to fathom it all. Any time I exercise my Free Will, I am bound to impact someone else (the Butterfly Effect).

    However God didn’t leave us high and dry. He gave us the tools to navigate in the chaos. First he gave us the written law, but that didn’t work because it was external to us. So he sent us Jesus to, as Jerimaiah said, write the law in our hearts. By following our hearts in loving God and our neighbors we make sense of the chaos and as Brother Michael states above, we can do it any way we like. In this way, “praying for God’s Will” is really getting in touch with what your heart is telling you and reminding ourselves what God has already told us.

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97. ..being “LED” by the Spirit was an important part of the teaching i recieved from the pentecostal church i attended (that God ‘led’ me to)the second time i “got saved”…. God help me…… btw thanks sharon…

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98. Here’s the rub, I think. Does God have specific things He wants us to do? I think He does. Are we in sin if we don’t ask Him? Are we in sin if we don’t like His answer?

    I’m in the engineering profession and have been for over 10 years now (was in contracting for 3 years upon graduating from college). I’ve been asking God for a new assignment. Something that will give me life and the opportunity to make a difference to people. One or two at a time, even. I’m not about world domination, so you don’t have to worry about me blogging and podcasting my adventures. 🙂

    Anyway, last summer, I was helping counsel some friends of mine and started to get feedback, from them and from God, that I was actually pretty good at it. At looking beyond their current issues and struggles and inviting them to go back a few scenes in their stories to determine how they got from the Yellow Brick Road to the Poppy Field. He gave me the desire to help folks. And the joy in doing so.

    I’ve always (been a follower of Jesus since January 1996) been intrigued by human relationships (God has been, too!), particularly dating and marriage relationships.

    Next month, I start, as a result of my hearing God’s voice, a Master’s program in Marriage and Family Therapy. 3 years and 8 months if all goes well. Then, I get to start internships and stuff… And I’m trusting God in this as I continue to work full time through school.

    When I mentioned it to my wife (not even giving her the “I think God’s telling me…), she said, without immediate question, “Yes, we can do this. And you’ll be good at it.”

    What is God’s will for me? He’s told me. Did I ask Him? Nope. Was I paralyzed waiting for His answer? Nope. But He’s told me. And I’m obeying in grace, faith, and joy. With a dash of fear. 🙂

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99. Some of the “fleece techniques” remind me a little of a short strip from MAD magazine decades back: A couple can’t decide whether to buy a sports car or a sedan, so they agree to flip a coin. It comes up “sedan,” at which–SHE: “Drat! I really wanted the sports car!” HE: “Me too!”

    Maybe we learn more about _us_ than about God.

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100. I had this conversation recently with a friend who was all knotted up and nearly unable to move because he wanted to travel a particular path but was uncertain about how it might fit into God’s will. I told him I had come to believe the sort of concern for God’s will he was struggling with did not really honor God. It paradoxically dishonors him because it derives from a belief or concern that he will bring calamity upon us and/or others if we do not make every step fall in the exact place he predetermined we should walk in. Rather, I said, it seems more honoring to think we are genuinely free to travel in any number of directions while believing God will redirect us if he so wills it. I think too much of myself when I believe the fate of the universe stands or falls according to what I do or don’t do.

     The times I became frozen and my chest so tight I could barely fill my lungs were almost always because my faith had moved away from Christ and toward myself. When I am able to trust God, when I am convinced of his love for me and all creation,I move and breathe freely. God directs me most when I am moving.

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101. Liked that little nod to Augustine at the end.

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102. For decades, I have given the same advice to those agonizing over what God wants them to do. “Just do someting. Anything. It doesn’t matter what, as long as it’s not immoral or illegal. Pick something and do it.”

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103. I think many people think of God’s will as a specific action that God want them doing ie feed the people in this place, heal the sick over there. God’s will is to live according to His commands. That is for everyone. The specific actions will mean different thing for different people. God gifts people with different abilities. There can be a wide range of possiblities for each individual.

     Praying on the other hand is about relationship. Our relationship with the Trinity. God invites us into this relationship. How blessed is that? We do it because we love God. He loves us. Is it helpful in determining actions God may want us to be doing? Maybe. After all the better you know someone (yourself as well as the Almighty) the better judge of what is best for you to live out. But do remember we are human beings not human doings. That does not negate an active life but puts first things first.

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104. Thanks for this! I am over a year into a job search that has not been terribly successful (what recession?). After so long it becomes easy to think of it all as some sort of a game that I am just playing horribly. But as you say, God is not gamey.

     This post fits well with the Merton Prayer, something I have found to be encouraging on many occasion.

     Whatever our situation, we always have opportunities to act out God’s will.

     Praying for his will to be done is not the same as waiting for him to open the heavens and give us an Ikea manual with step by step instructions and diagrams about what we are supposed to be doing.

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105. I think it’s a question of order and balance.

     First, we are to read the scripture, do what it says, and seek God (not just his will). My favorite verse of this one is John 6:29 “Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.'”

     So first, we must seek by reading scripture, praying, and believing and living those things out where we are.

     There are absolutely times in God steps in a gives specific instructions, and we must surrender our will to those instructions. And, we must also seek diligently before leaving a situation However, God does not do this every day. And, he has given us his Word as our ultimate Instruction.

     People tend to swing one side of the theological pendulum or the other. There is clear direction in scripture that we are to live our lives daily wherever we are and follow his precepts, whether we feel tingles or not. There is also evidence that we are to seek (ask, seek, knock) and to pray daily for God’s will (thy kingdom come, thy will be done) to be revealed and that sometimes the mystical does happen. Both exist. Both should be acknowledged.
     Neither is exclusive.

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106. You’re clearly communicating something that is true. Does that mean that other things are not true?

     In other words, because God has given you free will and a measure of common sense, does that mean that he doesn’t ever give anybody clear and specific direction? Does that require that anybody that hears and gets specific direction is hearing something other than God?

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107. Two quick stories on finding God’s will.

     First, I heard the story of a man who had taken in two friends who were having health and financial issues. Unfortunately, this also caused significant financial issues for his family. When praying about what to do, he felt it was God’s will to ask the friends to move out. He prayed some more, and wasn’t impressed otherwise. He asked his friends to find another place to stay (although he gave them some time to do so). A week later, a member at his friends’ church offered them a house. For free. The man took action based upon what he thought was God’s will, even though it didn’t make sense to him. But God took care of everyone.

     Second story is about me. I had a period recently where I was out of town for 4 Sundays in a row. Between work and personal commitments, I was traveling more than I would have liked. The auto repair place across the street from my neighborhood has a digital display board out front. After a couple weeks of not being in church, the display board showed. “What’s missing in CH__CH? UR!” every time I drove by. Well, I finally made it to my church a few weeks back, I haven’t seen that message on the sign since.

     (And no, I do not think that this was really God talking to me through a digital display board. I do not live in “L. A. Story.” But it is a humorous story about knowing God’s will.)

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108. I’ve also had experiences of God’s leadership, and sometimes in response to prayer. But not on the level of God treating me like a lab rat.

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109. Bruce, it’s funny how close that Lark News send-up comes to the parable of the 10 talents.

     I have struggled with this same idea. On the one hand you definitely have an outcome presented by Paul the Apostle in Ro. 12 saying, “then you will know God’s will.” This seems in complete contrast to the Apostles casting lots to see who would replace Judas.

     Well and God let them cast their lots and choose whoever they wanted, but I don’t think we ever hear of Matthias in the NT again, do we? God then sent Paul along.

     Michael, I can’t deny there have been a few times I felt God obviously leading me in a certain direction (it’s how I ended up at my current church), but your button is my button.

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110. I think I’m in line with the general sentiment thus far, so I’ll be brief. I find it funny that the people I know “seeking God’s will” rarely do so in scripture. In fact, it seems that the harder they are seeking, the less they are even willing to hear God’s word. So, yeah, many times it’s more like seeking a way to do what I really want to do and look good doing it.

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111. Despite my charismatic background which pushes us hard to “find God’s will” and even gives us little formulas or clues to finding it, I have always believed more along the lines of what you are talking about…

     But it’s hard for me to reconcile my theological upbringing and the straightforward logic that this post lays out… it has continuously caused frustrations, confusion, and borderline depression…

     I needed to hear this again. Thanks for posting…

     and thanks phil_style, for this:
     “I’ve never been of the opinion that God’s will is about my circumstances. I’ve always been of the opinion that God’s will is about my character.”

     I still tend to blame my current circumstances on missing God’s will on an issue that is over 10 years old now… I’m “stuck” doing what I do rather than God’s “ultimate will” for me because of my lack of discipline and my inability to follow faithfully. I need to stop seeking God for direction, and start seeking Him just to be with Him… To allow Him to work in my heart and my character… simply to let Him love me… I need to stop playing games, and stop thinking He only speaks through Alien coding…

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112. I totally agree with your post, Michael.

     I grow tired of people saying that we must find God’s will for our lives. It is like if we dont find it by some mysterious way then we will miss out on or mess up God’s plan for our life. People do not understand how they make God powerless when they say this as if God is wringing his hands hoping that man will make the right decisions and find His will in order for God’s plans to be accomplished. God is sovereign in ALL things. If God has a plan for us then there is nothing man can do to alter or change that.

     We are commanded to follow God’s revealed will found in the scripture.

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113. Thank you for naming it. Unlike you, I did not bite my tongue on this one when visiting my friends home group. When I was younger, I went along with the “need to find God’s will because I didn’t want to offend God” thing. It cost me dearly. It paralyzed me and prevented me from acting because I was honest enough to realize I wasn’t receiving clear direction from God in making decisions. Eventually, I ended up snapping out of it.

     So when I was in a small group where the people were talking as if “hearing God’s voice” is standard and started to get pissed, I did a very charismatic thing: I prayed, “I don’t want to start a huge fight because it’s off topic, but God, if someone mentions it again, I’m going to say something.” Someone did, I opened my mouth, and a giant discussion ensued. To everyone’s credit, it remained civil.

     It was interesting. I wasn’t the only one in the room with the same experience as me (but the others were afraid to speak up before I did!), and the charismatics there hadn’t realized there were Christians for whom their experience wasn’t normative.

     This is a subject that is not talked about in churches at all, but is a serious issue. The people who believe in charismatic leading are found in all denominations, and talk as if everyone should experience what they think they are experiencing. Not everyone does, and people who don’t can be crippled by this teaching, missing out on life while waiting for God to “show them his will.”

     Thank you for bringing this into the light.

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114. iMonk,

     Do you have Kevin DeYoung’s, “Just Do Something”? He completely addresses what you are talking about there. Great little book. I did an interview with him concerning his new book over at my blog if you are interested:

     http://takeyourvitaminz.blogspot.com/2009/05/interview-with-kevin-deyoung-on-just-do.html

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115. A.Men.

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116. mike. . . your reply caught my attention. when we are weary and battle worn nothing matters more than trusting that someone will be there to care for us. a “preview” of the Good Shepherd in Isaiah 40:11, says, “the Lord tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms. . .”
     Jesus promises “to never leave you or forsake you”. even better than seeing Jesus in your waffle, is trusting that he is with you, he knows what you are going through, and he will not leave you – HE PROMISED. and unlike all the people in the world – it is impossible for him to lie.

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117. I come from a strong tradition of the pentecostal/holiness/pietistic/ charismatic/and alas, “youth group” style that embraces the “seeking God’s will” idea as a metaphor for shunning responsibility for one’s decisions. The couple mentioned in Wolf Paul’s comments might have actually been led to wed, but unaware that suffering is part of the leading of God. (I.e., when we are led by God, we will suffer as we do it.)
     My first response to your comments was to agree with you, and to endorse the title of Kevin DeYoung’s book. (My spiritual milieu WAS actually Michigan State University, so it seems that things have stayed the same enough for a good pastor to keep teaching what DeYoung is teaching. His predecessor, Tom Stark, also was a voice of sanity in the midst of charismania.)
     The question arises, though: Why is this teaching (of holding off until you hear God’s will) so attractive? I think it’s that first, it’s scriptural, taught and modeled by Jesus (“ask seek knock,” and praying all night, “praying through”, before he chose his disciples), and the Apostles in Acts (go here or there?). Beyond that, we’re attracted by giving up our responsibility under a spiritual cover. And we’re repulsed by the prideful arrogance of people who think that because they want something, that that is enough for them–James reproves them strongly. And we’re motivated by a desire to escape trouble, because God ought to lead us on the straight way, by still waters, nourishing our souls; except that (alas) he promises suffering, and that we’d be tested by the Word he gives us. There’s also the problem of being scripturally illiterate and theologically illiterate. We’re STILL supposed to do something even though we don’t know the Bible or good theology.
     The key for me to escape the Attack of the Flakies was to give priority to Jesus’ teaching on the Talents and the Faithful Steward. The point there is, God drops stuff off on your lap, says, ” Catch you later,” and assures us that He’ll help us if we do something, and threatens us that, Boy, You’d better do something.
     One last note. I remember that the voices of clear doctrine and responsible Christian decision making in my youth always seemed to implicitly deny that God was a God of the Now, denying that God actually would lead and God by a sense of burden or urgency or desire or an inner voice–and I knew the experience of being truly led that way. So it was hard to take seriously the warnings from people who thought that all we could do was inductive Bible studies and give God a shout out in our prayer time, and wonder what He really thinks.
     My favorite send-up of this problem is from Larknews, at this link:
     http://larknews.com/november1_2003/secondary.php?page=5

     Man, 91, dies waiting for will of God
     TUPELO — Walter Houston, described by family members as a devoted Christian, died Monday after waiting 70 years for God to give him clear direction about what to do with his life.
     “He hung around the house and prayed a lot, but just never got that confirmation,” his wife Ruby said. “Sometimes he thought he heard God’s voice, but then he wouldn’t be sure, and he’d start the process all over again.”
     Houston, she says, never really figured out what his life was about, but felt content to pray continuously about what he might do for the Lord. Whenever he was about to take action, he would pull back “because he didn’t want to disappoint God or go against him in any way,” Ruby says. “He was very sensitive to always remain in God’s will. That was primary to him.”
     Friends say they liked Walter though he seemed not to capitalize on his talents.
     “Walter had a number of skills he never got around to using,” says longtime friend Timothy Burns. “He worked very well with wood and had a storyteller side to him, too. I always told him, ‘Take a risk. Try something new if you’re not happy,’ but he was too afraid of letting the Lord down.”
     To his credit, they say, Houston, who worked mostly as a handyman, was able to pay off the mortgage on the couple’s modest home. •

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118. I have struggled with this same idea. On the one hand you definitely have an outcome presented by Paul the Apostle in Rom. 12 saying, “then you will know God’s will.” This seems in complete contrast to the Apostles casting lots to see who would replace Judas.

     I DO think God cares about every detail of our life just like I care about them in my family. There are things that are more important, but I really want the best in every situation for the people I love.

     I DON’T think God plays games with us and tests us by throwing curves all the time. That is just inconsistent with the idea of love.

     John 5 has been really helpful in my realization of God and his communicating his plans to me. “the father loves the son and shows him all that he does”. To me, this implies that God is perfect and is trying to show me something all the time. Often I don’t get it.

     I really do want to seek God and through doing that I will know his will, and I am assured/convinced that he wants me to know him and it. I think that is our predicament.

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119. God’s Will is that we follow Jesus as His disciples. His will is that we love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbors as ourselves. His will is that we make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded us.

     There’s enough there to keep us occupied for a long time. God gave us His Word, a conscience, and common sense to be able to make decisions confidently. The more we study His Word and spend time with Him, the more we make informed choices about occupation, who to marry, where to live, etc.

     I’m in big time agreement here and I’ve said for a long time that the Bible reveals God’s will, we just have to walk in it. Sure, we need to pray a lot before making decisions and big decisions can definitely use lots of prayer and fasting but generally the prayer is that we would honor Him with our lives and our decisions and that He would walk with us always.

     I can share experiences of God giving a sign when He absolutely wanted me to walk a certain direction but He doesn’t always give a sign. He sent an angel to Mary so she wouldn’t miss it. Mary and Joseph weren’t going to wake up one day and decide, “Hey, let’s be parents to the Son of God.” So, there are definitely times when God gives clear indications of a certain path one needs to follow but in lieu of those special indicators, we can step out confidently when our ultimate desire is to follow Christ and bring glory to God.

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120. Whenever I hear someone speaking about seeking out God’s will, I can’t help but see it as an attempt to avoid some obvious path.

     No one struggles with “seeing” God’s will in a big fat promotion, but let them be presented with an unmet need they can fill that will cause them great sacrifice and the prayerful search for God’s will (hopefully something else) begins.

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121. I was really confused by your title. I thought “gamey” meant either “smelly,” like “smelling of wild game,” or “sexual.” Glad I read the post to figure out what you meant!

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122. Very good, Michael. And when I read “God isn’t gamey” I have to admit I thought like Donalbain…gamey?…like meat not quite fresh? 🙂

     I like phil_style’s, “Peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self control – — etc. .. . these are God’s will.”

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123. Mike, all I want to know is….did you seek God’s will before you posted this? 🙂

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124. No.. God isnt gamey.. he is more of a bready taste..

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125. I agree totally with everything you wrote, Michael. And I agree totally with phil_style’s comment above. So often, making it all about “God’s will” in terms of ministry, job, location – all of which are externals – is just a handy excuse not to focus on the real internal issues where God’s word makes his will very clear: humility, grace, forgiveness, love, etc.

     One of the personally most liberating things I ever heard (when I was a uni student) was a preacher who said that we often think of God’s will as a tightrope – put one foot wrong and you’ll fall off. I firmly believe this is the view many people hold. Actually, it equates to a pretty small view of God. If God’s sovereign will can be sabotaged by me making a slight wrong decision – which I am very likely to do many, many times – just how sovereign is God?

     We sing “It was for freedom that Christ has set us free”. Yet it’s amazing how we can turn something as liberating as God’s will into another form of slavery.

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126. I’ve never been of the opinion that God’s will is about my circumstances. I’ve always been of the opinion that God’s will is about my character.

     It’s about WHO I am, not WHERE I am.

     God’s will, surely, is that I become more Christlike. Irrespective of what job I have, what town I live in, what car I drive, the number of dogs in my neighbours yard.

     Peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self control – — etc. .. . these are God’s will.

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127. I am in the process of learning from a very wise pastor who has given me the best model of the Christian life I’ve ever seen. It is his goal to seek the presence of the Lord continually. The goal is not simply guidance to find God’s will…it is to find God Himself. God promiced that if we seek Him, He will show Himself.

     I think that if we know God and are continually seeking His presence both the question of “God’s calling” and the question of acting v. seeking will both become much less important. God Himself will be our guide, not because we are seeking His will, but because we are seeking Him! This seeking of His face answeres two problems: it stops us from acting out of our own strength rather than God’s yet it does not give us an excuse to sit on our thumbs waiting for His will to magically appear.

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128. Just yesterday I heard that a friend had got married because someone in her church had “spoken a prophecy” over her relationship with her boyfriend.

     Six months after the wedding they found out they did not know each other at all and had totally different expectations for married life. They are now separated and probably heading for a divorce.

     If they had been less “spiritual” about it and more pragmatic, if they had waited until they knew each other better and had bothered to find out each other’s expectations of marriage, they might be in a different, and arguably much better, place today.

     Amen to everything Michael said in this post.

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129. I wondered why my doormat was wet this morning.

     God’s will for me just after I hit “submit comment” is to put away the dishes. I know this to be so because it is an act of loving my wife and other members of my family.

     Sean said, I just do what I do because I know to do it. That’s pretty good theology, too. I may not be so quick to be transparent in the future. Arrrrgh…

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130. Pingback: God’s Will (not the one in Pennsylvania) « A Voice Crying Out In The Wilderness

131. I love my church, and I love the care group that I’m a part of. It’s full of kind, loving, helpful, older believers. But I got reamed out a few weeks ago when I confessed a struggle I have with the notion of “calling.” I’ve never understood it, never sensed it. I made the statement that I never “felt called” to do anything… I just do what I do because I know to do it. I know I should be making disciples, because Jesus said so. I know I should be witnessing to the community, because the passion is in me to do it.

     One of my elders….whom I greatly respect as a loving man and theologian… sighed and said “he believes in a general call.” He then asked if I thought that his much more dramatic story of packing up, leaving his home state, church, and ministry to be a part of our current church was “valid.” He felt I was attacking those who have a strong sense of calling and God’s personal will for their lives. I wasn’t at all. I was sharing my experience, not my theology. It was unfortunate, because it was a vulnerable moment for me to share a legit struggle I have. I may not be so quick to be transparent in the future.

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132. This post is a more eloquent description of one of the reasons why I reject most if not all of evangelicism.
     God is not some big vending machine in the sky so that if we deposit enough coin (faith, tithes, obedience, etc.) then push button B and 6 God is obligated to give us our Twinkies (put your own desires in here).
     God is sovereign.
     The only clue I have as to his will are the very simple things that are told us in scripture.
     To paraphrase Jesus, be nice to each other and worship God above all others.
     To paraphrase Paul, go tell other people.
     I won’t be putting out any fleeces or any of the other gyrations to know God’s mind. I can’t know it.
     I can trust God’s mind.
     So I am free to live and move within that mind of God without the constant struggle to make sure I’m making all the steps 1 through 12a to live.
     Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty free at last.

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133. The “you need to find God’s will” (i.e. “pray about it”) trope only gets more annoying when it is counsel from other people who might as well be saying, “EVENTUALLY come around to my way of thinking.” For me, at least, this is the more sensitive big red button because of the kind of Pentecostal background I had.

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134. “Some people don’t do anything until they’re sure they’ve found God’s will, others do something and find it.”

     “Many people believe God’s will is like a treasure map buried somewhere in the Bible and guiding them with dreams, or clues. I believe God’s will is like a road map. You follow the road that leads Home and keep going forward.”

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135. Man, you said what I have always wanted to say. I’m sick of this too. People who say this are just trying to act spiritual when in fact they are just clueless. God’s will is and we are limited to what we can know on this side. A great book that I gave my son is “Just Do Something” which deals with God’s will.

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136. This reminds me of the recent book title by Kevin DeYoung:

     “Just Do Something: How to Make a Decision Without Dreams, Visions, Fleeces, Open Doors, Random Bible Verses, Casting Lots, Liver Shivers, Writing in the Sky, etc.”

     Talk about “finding” God’s will! 😉

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137. Michael,this kinda seems like not having enough faith. Another hot button of mine. Seems though that what a person really should be saying is not finding God’s will but accepting it. I hope some day to know why He did certain things, or allowed them, but for now I simply have to accept them. Like if I have the faith of a mustard seed. . . Most “christian’s” seem unwilling to accept, but would rather spend their time looking for His will, it is such a great cop out so you don’t have to do anything, because I’m still looking. Maybe I’m wrong, should probably spend more time praying about it, I’ll get back to you in a few months and let you know, but I may need more time than that.

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138. ….once again..im in Awe here…this post is disturbing to me..in that i see how differently my brain “thinks” in comparison to a much more normal one…i guess the relentless recurring personal problems i’ve experienced throughout my life have forced me to adopt a distinctly mystical approach to life and God in a sort of spiritual survival mechanism…i need to believe that it’s going to be O.K. …i need little “signs and wonders” as a type of validation of Gods presence in my otherwise broken psyche…in my present state i simply don’t have the luxury of being practical..i NEED to see the face of Jesus on the wall or on my waffle because im only one drink away from Hell…

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139. I like the idea that he’ll let you know if He has a specific will for you.

     But darn it, I wish He would tell me what to do with the question I have right now!!

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140. Tell me this is not a Christian code for “this is what I decided, and I want to seem really spiritual in my decision.”

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141. The only thing I really understand about God’s will is that I am to love God and my neighbor as myself. Beyond that, I think God leaves us a lot of freedom to live our lives as we choose. God doesn’t will random human suffering.

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142. For what it is worth, it has been my experience that if God does care, He will let it be known. Otherwise, I don’t think He cares.If not, what is free will all about? I have trouble reconciling the concepts of free will and God’s plan for one’s life/God’s will. I think that most times God’s will is only that we love Him and each other (New Testament commandants) and the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures. Those cover just about all of life’s situations. Now, if one wants some divine guidance about what would be a better choice in general, then by all means ask!

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143. ahhhhh the “chinese finger trap” – flush the button ..it may be “God’s Will” 🙂

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144. I feel your pain, Michael. I think what gets me when I hear this kind of advice is that it always seems to be said as if the advice giver already KNOWS what God’s will for me should be.

     Kind of like the child taunt: I know what he’s going to say, but I’m not going to tell you…

     Brad

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145. Ken,

     As the resident expert on knowing the mind of God (so kidding on that), I will say that God does desire us to humble ourselves and pray for his guidance through fasting, etc. Yet we discern the will/guidance/direction by soaking in the Word and his principles and trusting God with the success or failure of our decision. He is God after all. He may be blessing us with a wise decision or testing us so we can learn to come more unto Him.

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146. This is so eminently reasonable that I may have to print it out for display somewhere in my home. I definitely fall into the “don’t move until you hear from the Big Guy” trap all too often.

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147. No, it’s not wrong.

     But if you think that God is gaming with you by that means or any other, then I think there’s a problem.

     If you ask for a stone, will he give you a fish?

     Ask, seek, knock, etc.

     Paul’s almost universal mission appears to be simple: go where churches aren’t. No more mystical than that.

     peace

     ms

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148. Excellent post which sparks a question: Is it wrong, therefore, to fast to seek God’s will/guidance/direction in a certain matter?

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149. Twitter has ruined by ability to spell. You are not your.

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150. I messaged you on twitter but just in case your not following my super witty, often not so supper witty, twitter updates then I will say it here.

     When you are done with that button I would like to have it.

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151. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people say they are seeking God’s will in a situation. I’ve held my tongue so that I wouldn’t shout out: “Why would he care?” My husband and I have had this conversation many times. It’s nice to know we’re not crazy in our thinking.

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