A Rant from a Loser in the Worship Wars

Posted byChaplainmikePosted inChurch, Rants, Worship & Liturgy, Worship Music

By Chaplain Mike

UPDATE: I’m not sure if some of you did not read the post carefully or if I communicated poorly, but I want to clarify something. This post is NOT about music styles and what styles are better or worse. This post is ultimately about how today’s evangelical church has changed the definition of “church,” “pastor,” and “worship.” The so-called “Worship Wars” have been part of context for these changes, but they are not the real issue. If the comments continue to take the track they’ve taken, I will write a follow-up post and try to make myself perfectly clear.

I will admit it from the beginning: I’m on the losing side in the worship wars. As such, I feel a little like what I imagine a southerner who’s still fighting the civil war in his heart must feel, calling it “The War of Northern Aggression” and still clinging to the Confederate flag as a symbol of his rebel nation’s pride. When it comes to evangelical church culture in the United States, what we loosely call “contemporary” worship has won. Hands down. The score wasn’t even close, and it’s been over for years, decades in many places.

Oh, I know some of you will argue that there has been a publicized renewal of interest in the “ancient-future” path, a restoration of liturgy and a movement by some evangelicals back to mainline Protestant churches as well as Catholic and Orthodox traditions. Let’s not fool ourselves. This is a distinctly minority movement. Most evangelicals today know less about the history and traditions of worship than they did when I was in seminary in the 1980’s. And my highly respected evangelical seminary had never even had a class on worship before I attended!

The fact that a few of us have found a place to talk about worship here at Internet Monk merely confirms my position. It’s not being discussed in the churches in any terms other than who has written the new hot worship song and whether our band is better than the one over at Living Waters Church. To evangelicals, worship = music. And music = “praise and worship” music—from a stage, by a band, with projected words. It all follows certain rules, and with a few variations here and there, it has become the “liturgy” of the evangelical church.

And here I sit, having seceded from the evangelical Union, still whistling “Dixie.”

So, while waiting for the service to begin in my small Lutheran “word and table” congregation on Sunday, I had a discussion with a woman who identified herself not merely as a loser like me, but as a casualty of the worship wars. Confession time: this conversation set my blood a’boiling. I know I said awhile back that anger never helps, so I’ve waited until I got home, had some time to decompress, poured myself a glass of iced tea, and took a deep breath before beginning to type.

Still, I’m warning you—I’m going to rant here.

The woman I talked to today spent over 40 years of her life teaching music in public schools. She is gifted, experienced, knowledgeable, and loves to serve. I had not seen her in our services before, so my wife, who had met her, introduced me. Turns out she is at our church because she wants to sing in a choir. We are a small congregation but we have a talented choir director (also a teacher), some fine instrumentalists, and a good group of singers. She knew our director as a teaching colleague, and so decided to come and sing in our choir. And then…

And then she would return to her church later in the morning to attend their service too. They no longer have a choir, and won’t consider a choir ministry. She’s out of job. Without consulting her and others like her, the leaders simply determined choral ministry didn’t fit any longer. Not wanting to leave behind a church family she had been part of for many years, yet gifted and trained musically, she is now shuttling between congregations on Sunday morning, trying to have both.

Her church would be called a megachurch around here. It is part of the independent Christian Church denomination, which has a strong ethos of outreach and evangelism. Nothing wrong with that, but as I set forth in an earlier post, I might be tempted to call them more of a mission than a church. It’s all programs for all ages all the time, with huge facilities designed to attract the community and keep them busy. They are a family-friendly, full service Christian activity center. It perfectly represents white, middle-class American suburban culture, evangelical style.

Their “worship” is also defined by this ethos. It is a pragmatic, attractional, upbeat, performer/audience style program, the antithesis of the historical meaning of “liturgical” but just as highly scripted and consistent. Their church growth mentality has subsumed and thus changed the meaning of “worship.”

If the way we approach public “worship” services is based on a mindset of reaching out, then one principle determines everything: Know your audience. And the next step is: Conform what you do to attract that audience and satisfy them. Thus, if we are trying to reach young suburban families, then we adjust our “worship style” to suit their tastes and preferences and do things that will “speak” to them and keep them coming.

So, to get back to my friend, in her church, choirs are out. Singing hymns is out, except for the occasional contemporary adaptation. Style of music is limited to a narrow range of “praise band” tunes and sounds that may be folk-rock, light jazz, contemporary pop, alternative, or some such style that represents whatever church leaders and the high priests of the music ministry decide will have “impact.” In a lot of churches like hers, having people on the stage who are past their 30’s (with the possible exception of a pastor) is rare.

Apparently, these leaders assume there is no need to “reach” the older generations anymore. They must think they are already there. Except, in reality, they are not—I can’t tell you how many people from 50-80 years of age I visit every day as a chaplain who are not in church—what makes them any less important to reach than young families? And since many of today’s leaders grew up in the a-historical, non-traditional, nondenominational, “Bible only,” parachurch-influenced, children and youth-focused, pop-culture saturated churches of the past 30-40 years, they don’t know anything else. They know what they like. They know what other young people like them like. And the only thing they can imagine might possibly be better than what they like would be something even newer and more “cutting edge.”

So here’s a woman, immensely talented, gifted, and eager to serve, who has always delighted in using her musical expertise and ability to serve God and encourage the church, and there is simply no place for her in that role any longer in her congregation.

In corporate terms, the company has withdrawn support for her department, because it no longer contributes to the company’s revised business plan. The leadership has decided to go another direction. Her job was eliminated when the corporation restructured. She is collateral damage.

It really is as heartless as that. She told us the leaders said to her and others like her that decisions had been made, the style of the worship service was set, and if they did not like it, they should find another congregation.

This is how the church treats faithful, gifted people. Cutting edge? Or cut-throat?

So, here are the questions by which I rant against this anti-Christian way of treating people (yes, you read that correctly). Even if you don’t share my exact perspective on worship, these questions still apply:

Where is a proper understanding of the church? If the church is God’s family, made up of all different kinds of people, all ages, all generations, all backgrounds, all ethnic groups, all social classes, then why do we insist on this narrow, mission-focused emphasis targeting particular groups and building our ministries around them? The church growth ethos has completely overwhelmed the way church leaders approach ministry and I for one utterly reject it as in any way representing a sound NT ecclesiology.

If the church is a family, why do we tolerate practices that dishonor our elders? If the church is the Body of Christ, why do we restrict the gifts God has distributed and think we can retire some of the Body’s members? Who set an age limit for priests in the priesthood of all believers? If our God is a God of infinite variety and creativity, why are our imaginations so limited that we cannot figure out ways to include the contributions of others who may not fit into our narrow little models of “worship”?

I would argue that we ought to find ways that people of all ages could be included and represented in a variety of ways in our worship services. When people come to worship they ought to see the whole family of God in action. They should not see a group of people that fills a market niche. That includes children, teens, college age young people, singles and family members of all ages, and adults from every available generation. We ought to learn to appreciate music that reflects what has been spiritually meaningful to people down through the years, as well as learning new songs of praise. Our church leaders should be courageous to challenge their congregations to obey the Scriptures and “accept one another” in these matters. We ought to see people from all generations “up front” and involved in the public ministry of the church.

Programs and specific ways of doing things will change, but no one should be left behind in the name of pursuing the church’s mission.

Where is the creativity to find ways of including all people? Are you telling me that in a congregation of two or three thousand people, you couldn’t find some exciting ways to make use of a choir and other forms of more traditional music ministry? I’m not a big fan of split services, where some are traditional and others contemporary, so I don’t think that’s a long-term answer. I’ve got to believe with all our emphasis on “creativity” and “innovation” today, we could easily imagine ways to include the older folks and the ones who appreciate more traditional forms in our worship services and in other important ministries where their gifts could be honored and used.

Where is the courage to be counter-cultural? Last Friday’s post on the Epistle to Diognetus quoted a strong challenge to today’s church. “Christians are recognized when they are in the world, but their religion remains unseen,” its author wrote. It seems the evangelical approach in this culture is exactly the opposite. Our religion is recognized in the world, but we remain hidden. The attractional philosophy tries to make our religious services and practices enticing to our culture, while we fail to teach people how to actually live in the world day after day as followers of Christ.

You will find little, if anything, in the NT about attracting people to the faith through the gathered worship of the church. That is simply not what worship is about. Worship is an activity for God’s people. We should certainly be hospitable and welcoming to those who may come among us, but the NT church is not a “temple” designed to draw people in. The NT church is a community of people, who worship together and then scatter, in order to penetrate the world by fulfilling our various vocations in the world, testifying to the Good News face to face, person to person in all the contexts of daily life in the world.

Any gifted showman can attract a crowd. Any gifted program director can design and run an organization that will get and keep people involved in activities. It is being done all over the country. But who is forming the community in which Christ is central and spiritual roots sink deep, where people are being encouraged to have quiet hearts that pay attention to what God is doing, sensitive hearts that pick up on subtle signs that a brother or sister needs attention, thoughtful hearts devoted to study, meditation, prayer, and contemplation, hospitable hearts that welcome the neighbor and are open to the stranger? Who is encouraging the kind of worship that forms such hearts? Who is providing the grace and space, the otium sanctum—the holy leisure—the silence and intimate conversation by which they are formed?

Church leaders have traded their calling as pastors for jobs as showmen and program directors, and that is the essence of our culture, not counter-cultural. The people we are trying to win should be getting to know us, not our religion. But we wear our religion on our sleeves and hide ourselves from the world. We have rejected the kind of worship that would include someone like my friend because she’s of no use in the show anymore. She is like the aging Hollywood starlet who can’t find good roles because the producer thinks people won’t want to look at her wrinkles. She’s not marketable any longer. She has become an outmoded commodity, not a respected elder who can speak and sing and serve with credibility and gravitas in God’s family.

Where is the wisdom and love of Christ in relating to people? For my friend, years of involvement, friendship, and service in a local congregation were summarily dismissed in a single sentence: “This is the way things are now; if you don’t like it, you should find another church.”

Now, I am fully aware that I am only reflecting on her report, so don’t jump on me for that. I have heard enough similar stories over the years; have heard pastors themselves tell about such conversations, to conclude her report accurately represents what happened. Those who have won the worship wars are not going back to the way things were before, and they have little imagination for other possibilities. In their view, the “old ways” of my friend were ineffective in reaching the world for Christ back then, and they certainly wouldn’t be effective now. If we’ve learned anything, it is “change or die.” Besides (here comes the theological justification), isn’t the Holy Spirit always doing new things? Isn’t it our job as church leaders to spot the next good wave and catch it?

And I would say, no. No. No. Your “job” is to love God and love people. And if you are entrusted with leadership in God’s family, that includes paying attention to what God is doing in the lives of the specific people God has brought your way. Your job is to work with God to create an environment through which the Spirit can form Christ in them. That does not happen by “catching waves.” And it doesn’t happen by this or that particular program or method. It happens by listening, having conversations, and being with people in the context of their lives—”walking” with them through life. It happens through spiritual friendship which, multiplied, is community.

If you find you have to change something in the church that affects people, you work with them personally in a spirit of forbearance and patience. You don’t dismiss them. You don’t treat them like consumers who might just find the product they are looking for somewhere else. If you want a congregation full of ’em—consumers that is—that’s the way to do it.

Before you complain that this post is one-sided, let me save you some trouble. I know that. I have been around awhile and have seen most every permutation of the “worship wars” since the mid-1970’s. I realize that churches did not always act with imagination and grace toward those who wanted to introduce contemporary music and other elements into the church’s worship. Certain traditionalists fought long and hard to resist change. In the process, they dismissed people with different views, and sometimes looked down on younger people and did not honor what God was doing in their lives. I’m sure it’s still going on in some persistent enclaves of resistance. At times older generations did not act Christianly, and I am not here to defend them. Even my friend, in the midst of our conversation, acknowledged that she has the responsibility to be forbearing of the changes in her church. She is trying, but I know from talking with her that she also feels she got slapped in the face. I hope she’s asking God to help her turn the other cheek.

But this is today and I am speaking to today; and I am speaking especially to church leaders and music directors and worship leaders. This is not ultimately about music styles or technology or architecture. It is not about choirs vs. praise bands. We can talk about all those things and never get the root of what’s going on here.  I am concerned that our ecclesiological foundations are being washed away in a tidal wave of capitulation to culture.

The bottom line for me involves what it means to be the church, what it means to be a pastor, and what it means for God’s people to gather for worship. Through the years of skirmishes and battles, I have tried to approach the worship wars and guide churches through them from those three perspectives. And my conversation with the woman in my church on Sunday brought all these issues to the fore for me again. Her testimony shows me that many evangelicals have forgotten what it means to be a church for everybody. Many of their pastors have perverted their callings into something other than pastoral ministry. And many have no clue at all regarding worship, who and what it’s for.

Lacking a rich Biblical, historical, and theological imagination, we have surrendered unwittingly to our culture and followed its lead in all three areas. I may be on the losing side of the worship wars, but it is the church that is truly losing, as well as a world that needs more than another place to entertain them and keep them busy.

In the short term, I’m not optimistic.

198 thoughts on “A Rant from a Loser in the Worship Wars”

  1. Deborah–just a thought–maybe you are the one being mean-spirited?? Mike is just frustrated because his comments are being mis-understood and you call that “hateful”?? Where o’ where is the Spirit of Christ in MANY of these responses!! We talk about worshiping The Master and we can’t seem to even get along with our own Brothers and Sisters!! No wonder a lost and dying world is so turned off by ” the church”!! We DON’T need a different style of worship–we need REVIVAL!!

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  5. I would have to say that the “my way or the highway” approach is not “just shameful” but according to the Word of God it’s downright CARNAL!!

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  6. Rebekah,—Pray and ask God, He will either send them your way or direct you to them!! HE cares about your situation and WILL NOT leave you hanging out there all alone!! I will be praying that he will direct you!!

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  8. I have to admit I didn’t read this article very well because I find the name offensive. I hate that term worship wars. I think it is so sad. I am 60 and I love all kinds of worship but prefer contemporary. I have sang in church choirs, and a praise band. One church we were at during worship where an older lady played the organ you kind of expected someone to get up and say “All skate” it sounded so much like skating rink music.I know she wanted to use her talent but it was rather displaced. I think if people really wanted to find a place to use their talents they can. We have so much more to worry about than music styles or church choirs. I will say the biggest complaint I hear from people who only want traditional worship is that they want to sing 4 part harmony. I think a lot of people in church can’t sing at all, can’t carry a tune but people talented enough to sing well could probably sing that harmony while raising their eyes toward the Lord instead of in a song book. It just seems ridiculous to even talk about and I get so discouraged when I hear people arguing about music. Just praise God! Just worship God! Worship is so much more than music styles!

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  9. Followers of Jesus are human. We have our personal opinions and preferences. These often crash into others’ opinions and preferences. It was so with Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:36-41. Barnabas wanted to take John Mark with them, but Paul was determined not to take him. Mark had “bailed out” as they were going into a dangerous ministry in West Asia and returned to Jerusalem — Acts 13:13. Paul saw him as he had been: irresponsible and unreliable. Maybe Mark was a bit too timid, at that point in his Christian growth, or maybe just homesick, or both. Paul was hardcore and may never had been a parent. He couldn’t relate to Mark’s immaturity, and maybe it showcased a little of his own immaturity. He was human too! It must have been discouraging to Paul and would be discouraging to the group when Mark turned back, perhaps declaring it was too hard. This was a dangerous ministry they were called into. It took determination, courage, and a unified group effort to succeed.
    So, in one of the great chapters on Christian unity, Acts 15, this little sideline note shows the other side of unity: the stress between conflicting opinions and preferences and the eventual split that occurred. This is the great chapter that records the monumental meeting of the greatest leaders in the Church of Christ at that time to try to squelch, once and for all, the efforts of jealous Jewish Christians to impose their outmoded and sidelined cultural and formerly spiritually essential laws on the uninitiated Gentiles. It helped to unify the Church. Then, to showcase the varied difficulties of maintaining unity in diversity, the chapter ends with two of the Church’s greatest leaders parting company because they could not agree! In fact, it says that their contention about the matter was “sharp!”
    Who was right? Barnabas was determined to help Mark over his weaknesses and fears and on to greatness in leadership. It must have worked! Mark did go on to write one of the four Gospels. Not bad for a kid who once had “jumped ship” at a time when he was needed. Paul, in his own way, was right too. It is a dangerous business to go into some foreign fields and risk your life, your everything, and especially unhelpful to that is the addition of a vexing problem in dealing with an immature, unreliable flake.
    What resulted? Two missionary trips, two outreaches, with more people involved in each outreach. Later Paul and Barnabas “patched things up,” and Paul eventually recognized that Mark had repented, matured, and was a useful servant of God (II Timothy 4:11). When challenged with differences of opinion, the people of God prayerfully work things out, and God allows for our personal opinions and preferences, either changing them, or working in spite of them, growing His servants on to greater maturity.
    Our church went through similar throes in the “worship wars.” As a parent of teenagers, I discovered that three of my four teens could not relate to the traditional music in the same way I could. They had heard the “other stuff” on the radio, music that sounded jangly to my ears, having been classically trained as a musician. To them, the “other stuff” was not just emotionally exciting. It also spoke deep into their hearts. It ministered to them spiritually. Because I loved them, I began to listen to their music, listening to the words, not primarily the unfamiliar sounds that offended my ears at first. I began to see why they were excited about this music. I saw that it was helping them spiritually, so I backed down. How glad I am that I did. They moved on to be fervent Christians. One is studying for the ministry, one married a young ministerial student. The other married a Christian and has settled down. The one who didn’t particularly care about the “new music” is currently not with the Lord (not that this is an indictment against the music.)
    Many of our young people felt the same way about the new music as my children did. They felt cheated, disenfranchised, if you will. A very talented young man saw the need. He rose up and became a preacher and started a new church in an adjoining community. Most of the young people flocked there, not just for the music, but for the message that spoke to their issues, their needs. I know. We went with them to encourage them and monitor the situation.
    Just like with Paul and Barnabas, two outreaches resulted instead of one! Both churches are prospering. The “older set” have their culturally traditional worship service and the new church is growing with a contemporary beat. There is much fellowship back and forth. God worked it out peaceably, as such things should be. My take is, crises of this nature will bring out the best and worst in people, exposing who they really are and where they need to grow in loving those who do not think like they do. Real, Christ-like love will become apparent, or the lack of it. There will always be these kinds of crises as long as there are humans with opinions and preferences. I choose to honor and love those who differ from my preference. And, amazingly, because it is being done in the Spirit of God, I found I actually like the contemporary worship service best of all! Yet, when I’m with the other group, I put my whole mind and heart into worshiping God even when sometimes the words or performances tend to hinder a bit. I agree with the person who stated that traditional music can sometimes become flat and dull and very unprofessional, or just “the same old same old.” There is so much love in that “traditional church,” that even if an unprofessional, stumbly bumbly guy gets up and does his best, we honor his best effort, his sincere effort to express his love for Jesus. I would recommend this kind of love, especially on a Sunday night or midweek when it is mostly the more mature Christians attending. Our worship services may differ, but our love and support of one another should not.

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  10. Wow, Mark. Makes me glad I’m not your father! I’d be afraid for my future. Seriously, dude, you need to break out of the “cutting edge” youth bunker mentality and realize that God is not always about “the next big thing.” BTW, there are times I love contemporary worship too–when it is worship and not the stage show or manipulative feelings fest it is on so many places. My experience has been the opposite of yours–and we are about the same age. I can’t tell you all the ways older saints have blessed me.

    Church is for everyone or it is not church. We are either all in this together as God’s family, or the NT idea of church is meaningless.

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  11. Mike, with all due respect and humility, your view is the view I have fought for years. I suggest you go and plant a church to target the 60+ (I’m 55 and love contemporary worship.)

    After you plant this congregation, then see how much participation you get. Nada! “We’ve done our thing. It’s time for the young people to get out there and do the work.” Problem is, at 60+, the limitations of daylight, food, backs, energy, memory, cynicism, traditionalism, will choke the congregation into nothingness.

    The only Kingdom churches (those who make sure the next generation have the Gospel) which are targeted for 60+ are in “Golden Year” communities such as Sun City, AZ. Makes sense to plant one there.

    Until the sour grapes of the “Fanny Crosby” generation passes on, I pray the type of attitude you express will not destroy the great works… the Kingdom works… of congregations who have an ethos different from the denominational slop I oftentimes see.

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  13. I’m not saying it’s right, but what did you expect when what was sowed was a total lack of openness on the part of the “older generation” in many cases?

    I’m middle aged myself, raised on hymns, scripture readings, etc.

    But I saw and lived through in many churches such a disproportionate response of disdain, anger and control when any attempts to engage broader worship forms than sitting an listening to a talking head and 19th C. revivalist hymns was even suggested, much less allowed in tiny little homeopathic doses.

    Has the pendulum swung too far? Probably. But people reap what they sow. And if you’re sub-par ecclesiology allows for “force of will” by congregation members around their personal preferences, then what do people expect things to look like?

    Another side of the issue is this: The proof is in the eating. Many a church that would not change and learn to speak the language of the next generation of its OWN people struggled and stagnates and dies.

    I think you’re bigger questions are dead on.

    I also think you’re not owning the simple fact that the cultural soup we all swim in has passed many of us by and we just won’t except it.

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  14. No, I read the article.

    While I enjoy most of what you write, this post came off as highly critical of contemporary worship.

    You say it’s not about “liturgical vs. non-liturgical or contemporary vs. traditional” but then imply contemporary worship services are analogous to Balaam’s ass. That’s not critical?

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  15. One reason I commented as I did is because you are all missing the point. This article is not about “liturgical vs. non-liturgical or contemporary vs. traditional.” It is frustrating when people do not read the post and then comment based on what they think I said. It is exactly this kind of failure to listen and think that needs to be confronted.

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  16. I suppose it would be futile to point out that this kind of comment and attitude is likely to cause division and even push people away, all over a non-essential.

    As for me, I’m currently re-reading Viola’s Pagan Christianity and am (once again) realizing the silliness of arguing over liturgical vs. non-liturgical or contemporary vs. traditional.

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  18. PS. as to the whole choir / non-choir stuff, the church leadership should respond to God (not trends, not $$). What I mean is that it’s very illogical to say “the church should not act like a secular entity” but then still say “it should employ people fairly (in any sort of entitlement type way)”… I agree that it should be kind in how it lets go of people if it’s time, but I don’t think the church has a responsibility to employ people simply because they’re useful / talented (everyone is talented in something in God’s eyes and hopefully ours). It’s not a business, it’s a family.

    Church politics happen partly because we get boxed into super stable positions, not just employment wise but in all senses. We tend to congregate into larger and larger groups which doesn’t help the gospel advance if we’re not focused on sending people out to create new churches. And the added blessing is that people who have a different vision of some sort can move on and live out what God’s calling them to instead of everyone being crammed into a ‘tiny car’ of what’s too often one man’s vision (not a full enough slice of the full counsel of God). Multiplying churches into new areas, cities, nations, etc. is as healthy, Biblical, and non-optional as children moving out and getting married is.

    I say this as a guy who’s been fired without notice from churches and as a guy who’s often making a large part of my income working for churches, so I’m not just blabbing from the sidelines.

    peace and grace.

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  19. there are a zillion things to type here. But i just want to encourage you that this is not the case in all parts of the church in the world, or even the US. I’m in Dallas, TX, bible belt / land of programs etc, and I’m a part of a church that has very little programming beyond necessary structures to facilitate growth, intimacy, discipleship, etc. And we there is very little church politic. And the particular music we sing is mainly a reflection of our hearts (and some music written locally, and the ‘covers’ list is not the top 40 anthems, but ones that reflect our specific body’s heart). I do believe it’s important for the music to connect with people (or help them connect with God and each other). I think an issue is when it appeals to our flesh but misses our heart. It should be an extension of actual life change going on in the majority of a body, the cry of our hearts (thus it’s probably not going to be the same songs sung in every church across the globe), not random entertainment…

    The more people answer to God than statistics, and the more leadership is focused on releasing what God’s already doing in the hearts of the people in a body, the more worship will be a natural extension of that body. You hear more, “I love how Bob leads, it’s got a very specific flavor” type stuff and less stereotyped, boxed in options (hymns vs. choruses, upbeat vs. solemn, all these often false distracting dichotomies that miss the issue). This is the same as how your best friend laughs a certain way and everyone loves that and wouldn’t ask them to change it, it becomes part of the identity of the group. Like the way a Father is proud of his sons and daughters ‘quirks’, not asking them to fit one mold or another.

    How should we worship? That should be answered in part by scripture and in part by our hearts. God describes our best efforts as “filthy rags” (literally meaning menstrual rags -tampons). He says he’s not served by human hands. He says he desires obedience over sacrifice but also for us to “rend our hearts (internal) and not our garments (external)”. He does not judge by outward appearance. Neither should we with mere genres. Does the music help the people rend their hearts or is it shallow? (it can happen with any form).. It’s a relationship and Jesus wants an honest bride as well. So some ‘retarded’ly simple music can be appropriate. He’d rather relate with the true us (and move on from there, not leaving us as spiritual infants, but we must admit where we are first before trying to act as if our hearts are as scholarly as our words / doctrine / beliefs, etc), than a “correct” version of us. He expresses this in several parables. The woman who gave coins gave ‘more’ than the rich people. The man who beats his chest and says “I’m a sinner” is better in Jesus’s eyes than the man with flowing elegant prayers (if his heart’s not being expressed really). We have to give God something honest to work with. Part of the “worship wars” are from a pendulum swing of the younger generations in response to a rather emotionally detached generation or so before us (note- disconnect with our earthly fathers is a real issue and we long for a tangible connection with our heavenly one to fill that void, so we demand experience and emotion at times, not just correct doctrine). Emotion? Yes, it’s commanded all over the Bible. Serve with joy, weep with those who weep, etc. David was not reserved in his worship and that’s part of what a lot of churches need not to “understand” but be obedient to i.e. open to experiencing (and making people uncomfy if need be to get there). Again, not a matter of genre.

    I could rant all night, but I gotta sleep so I can wake up and work at a church (I’m an audio engineer) that pays me while I’m away from my real community (who can’t afford it). But, God is good and we’re seeing some headway in the church I work for (opening other parts of themselves than just the doctrine / logical side).

    Spirit AND Truth! Let’s go for both and not forbid either.

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  21. Wow! What a hateful comment! Yes, I read every word of your article and I also read all the comments ahead of mine. My comment was mostly directed to all the other comments about which style is better. I see a lot of mean-spiritedness in you. Hope I’m wrong about that but you often criticize your fellow Christians and hold up your own beliefs and practices as superior. Maybe I am as ignorant as you accuse me of ’cause I just don’t understand that.

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  23. There really are a ton of dechurched people. The “Frightfully” bunch you’ve mentioned are definitely very different than what I think your talking about. A lot of the Christians are beginning to move out of Churches and into more of missional communities (a few Christians who live and work in the world, but meet together for encouragement, fellowship, worship etc… but not as church and not as a significantly growing body but as missionaries in their community).

    If I ever leave my current church… I have a feeling I may move this direction myself. But I do love my church, and I know for a fact that my Pastor was called here for a reason and I want to support him, while he fulfills it. Plus, yes, I probably have “churchdom” a little ingrained in me.

    I think the danger of “leaving the church” is that most who have left the church have never replaced it with a good community of believers or any sort of sound spiritual input or support. They’ve not only abandoned “churches” but largely abandoned their fellow Christians. This will hurt them and their fellow Christians (who need them too).

    It sounds like you’re probably one who has pursued the community and is really being the church without the building.

    On a sidenote – Worship as a lifestyle and worship as music are not completely different, but they are not exactly the same either. Psalms is pretty clear, I think, about the importance of worship. That doesn’t mean it has to be in a church building, with a band, or even set songs though.

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  25. As far as the musical aspect of this (I know your post, Mike, was more on the heart than the music… but the music was definitely a part of it), youth worship is incorporated in youth groups, kids worship is incorporated in kids class, adult worship is incorporated in the main services. Maybe in your church they all sound the same… Or you think the adult worship is the same as the youth.

    You’re right that in these major churches, the old style of worship (ie hymns, choirs, and organs) have been abandoned in a way that hurt many people who were prefered that. In the same way, churches who are stuck with that style of worship have negatively affected the people that come who would much prefer more contemporary music. We could try to balance all of these.

    We could try to combine children, youth, hymns, organs, and electric guitar into one service, but that could turn into an ugly three hour monster. You mentioned that we should have the creativity to solve this problem. You’re right. We should. However, if there is only one person in your church who prefers style A and all others prefer style B, there’s not significant enough support to keep style A going. Who will sing it? Who will play it? The one person? Who will attend.

    If there is a fair percentage or number, yes, we should find a way to make that work. But honestly, THEY will need to be the ones to make it work. They will probably need to be the one to go to the worship pastor and say, “Do you think we could have a night of hymns once a week, led by me and betty-lynn? We’ve been practicing, and we know there’s a lot of people who really need this ministry.”

    Times do change, and some people don’t. They will not receive ministry from modern music, and need to be ministered to still.

    On the other hand…..

    Someone commented here and said that they were rescued by this movement. They’re not alone. And it’s not just in a missional sense.

    I have seen countless teenagers who were “Christians” really come to desire God through VERY modern worship services. I’ve seen these same youth come home from camps hungry to experience more only to find that the worship at their church simply could not lead them to God.

    “They should be focused on God, not the music!”
    -Yet we have music. Why?
    –To minister to God? Then why should we allow anyone – old, young, hymn-fanatic, rock-a-holic – to complain about WHATEVER style of music it is? It’s not for you. It’s for God!
    –To minister to man? Then they are right. The music is not ministering to them.
    It’s really both. We minister to God in our music, but we also use music to help us in this act of worship. The music affects us mentally, emotionally, and event spiritually (ie Saul).

    I can totally understand what you’re saying about balance. There’s not just one style of worship. Worship is not merely contemporary. Merely rock. Merely pop. (These three will probably all be called the same though: Contemporary) Merely hymnal. Merely choiral.

    But that is part of the reason there are different churches. No one church can cover every style, every preference. Satisfy ever “immature boy” or “old woman”, “selfish man” or “spiritual man”.

    If you’ve found a church that you think models this, I think you would still find somebody who feels out of place, or whose talents aren’t used.

    Another thing, not everyone that WANTS to minister (singing, speaking, whatever), needs to do it in a church building, and certainly not all during the same service. Take your gift into the world. Take your gift to your neighborhood or your closet. Take your gift to the mission field. I’m not saying get out of the church, but get over the “I MUST BE ON STAGE” mentality.

    I know so many people who won’t go to a church unless they think they can minister in the church. Seems silly to me. But truthfully, I’ve always had an opportunity to minister. So maybe I can’t talk when it comes to that.

    Some parts of this may sound cruel, but I hope I was clear in my little return rant. I certainly understand the pain that woman went through. It was obviously handled wrong. But it doesn’t mean that not having a choir anymore was wrong. That depends on a lot of things.

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  26. The way she told it, the person who dismissed her was definitely wrong in the way they handled the situation, but I’m pretty sure we’ve all made mistakes. I don’t know the person who said it, the wording they ACTUALLY used when they said, the tones, or that person’s relationship with the woman.

    I understand that this one event is a picture of a wider problem, and it’s definitely making me think about how I treat people.

    But I think you’re taking too general of an aim at “Megachurches” as the enemy.

    Let me point out too that I am not a part of and have never been a part of a megachurch. The largest church I’ve attended was as a child (400?). My current church is usually under 40.

    Here you specifically mention that the community involvement is hard for a megachurch. But my sister attends a megachurch in San Antonio that has a very small community style focus. They set up and spread out community ministers to reach their neighbors in their areas. Not just to bring them to church. But to minister outside of the church.

    A megachurch in my area has a group that goes out and just fixes peoples homes and helps with disaster recovery type of situations locally. Sure. That’s in a church group. But it’s still community involvement.

    I know a lot of small churches that have provided great “family” experience for their group but have majorly failed (as groups or as individuals) at reaching beyond their “little family”. I used to be more critical of the “seeker friendly megachurch” but I’ve begun to see the good they’re doing and the opposition and insults they face from the smaller churches. (Not opposition as in competition, but as in trying to make it seem like they don’t really speak truth or don’t worship with their hearts. The megachurch in my area is considered a cult by many of the local churches. It’s not.)

    Some people honestly will never feel comfortable in a large church or with that style of ministry. I think I may be one of those (tho I haven’t tested it). That’s why it’s great that there are many variances of churches. But I’ll put more about the musical aspect in another comment….

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  28. I resonate with this because it is true to my own experience. My church is what would be classified as a megachurch around these parts. Up until a few years back, we had a choir and I was actively involved in it. Then the choir was dismantled because they wanted to go in a different direction musically which did not have room for a choir. I believe in what my church is trying to do and I wanted to continue to be a part of it, so I was willing to “take one for the team” and find another place to serve. But I still miss being able to use my musical gifts there.

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  29. Question is, “When and how did Worship come to be defined as a pop concert-style music performance? With all the associated baggage and side effects that brings?”

    Because, just like the dismantling of the Red Cars and their replacement with freeways some 60 years ago (Cloverleaf Industries in the Who Framed Roger Rabbit movie was based on real Los Angeles history), we are now living after the side effects have reached critical mass and are choking off whatever advantages the original change might have had.

    My home parish (St Boniface, Anaheim) was built in 1961 and has an older-style choir loft above and behind the congregation. You don’t see the choir or musicians performing front-and-center by the altar, you just hear them echoing through the sanctuary. No up-front performance to distract from the liturgy.

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  30. It’s just another form of Clericalism.

    (Or given the context, shouldn’t that be Full Time Professional Christian Worship Leader-ism?)

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  32. Thanks so much for your thoughts. Glad to hear there are more people bothered by this issue as well.

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  33. Hey, I appreciate your post.
    A couple of comments…
    I am a youth pastor at a church that is trying to meet the needs of people that prefer traditional and contemporary…
    It’s hard work. We do it because that’s who our congregation is…if we cut down our worship services to one style we would lose part of our congregation….not so much because they are consumeristic but because that is how they connect with God. We had to revive the contemporary service because I was losing many of the people that I’m in charge of (leaders and adults) because they didn’t connect to the traditional style in our church.

    However…I believe worship is more than music and we need to be pushing our people towards that.

    My main issue…and in my context it comes from the traditional crowd. Everyone’s wants to be one big happy family but only on their terms. We can worship together only if its done in the traditional format…then we can be a happy family. Completely ignoring the fact younger generations are really struggling in that service to connect to God through what the service is giving. But as long as we do traditional style we can worship together and be a family.

    Well…that’s a pretty crappy family.

    The family I want to he a part of sacrifices some of its preferences so that others may connect to God. Especially those who are supposed to be older and more mature in the faith. Wouldn’t you want to see younger generations to experience God in a way that draws them in?

    Tough discussions and the church is in an interesting place. I’m all for doing different styles if it edifies the body of Christ and encourages outreach.

    Good post.

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  34. that is a long, sad, and negative indictment. I think it is mostly true though. Contemporary worship…. it’s just …. bland.

    I do not need a rock/pop band to worship God. I feel like the rock/pop band is more important than God in many ways.

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  35. When a church is geared like a business, in this case to gather bodies for membership, it will conform to whatever technique increases that membership.

    In the Gilded Age of the19th Century, that would have meant hired Pinkerton goons, bought-and-paid-for Aldermen, Judges, and Congressmen, torches and kerosene, and even dynamite used on the other guy’s business.

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  36. Soon enough, that Music Director will be old enough to get thrown under the bus to make room for the Latest and Greatest Fresh New Worship Experience (TM)…

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  37. And if you’ve ever read the Psalms, a LOT of them weren’t Shiny Happy Clappy Joy Joy Joy. Lots of Lamentation in that worship.

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  38. I’m an aficionado of the Nifty Fifties (which included the First 1960s), but by no stretch of the imagination was it the Godly Golden Age you hear from the pulpits.

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  41. My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) has found out the hard way that “Ministry” means “you’re expected to do it all for FREE.” (Last I heard, he was having to do stage magic shows on the side for extra survival income.)

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  43. Thanks Isaac and JoanieD ~ we had a good talk. I don’t see myself becoming an official member of the church though. I disagree with some fundamentals. Came home with an armful of literature. People are very, very warm and welcoming. The church secretary greeted me at the door and when I left she gave me a Fasnacht!! Pastor had Eugene Peterson as a professor for a class years ago which to me was just awesome. Peterson is one of my favorite authors. So thanks for you prayers and kind words. I will keep journeying and worshiping and see where this goes.

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  44. but an artful performance can be a worshipful experience for the individual connecting with God thru it…

    i do understand the ‘corporate’ worship time as a dynamic that only can be expressed+experienced with like-minded believers whose sole (soul) intent is to magnify & worship God together…

    and since it is a communal (group) dynamic, there are limitations on its expressiveness.

    Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. Col 3:16

    now if that isn’t a recipe for disaster! sure, let everyone get in on the act…

    well, i think if any error should happen, it should be in regards to inclusiveness vs. exclusiveness. how that is to be expressed must be a communal agreement. anyway…i have no real, practical solutions to the issues raised, but i do understand our responsibility to always esteem each other higher than ourselves…

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  46. If I were this woman’s pastor, I would certainly have listened to her concerns and tried to help her explore alternatives. I doubt that was done. And yes, I would love it if churches would encourage community involvement of all kinds. That’s hard to do, though, when you are trying to be a megachurch.

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  47. This describes how our group of believers worships, sometimes together and sometimes not. This is our paraphrase in life of Romans 12-14, especially Romans 12:1.

    As we read in Michael Spencer’s book, there are those of us who have the the church building for good. We found lots of stuff there, but not Jesus. Whether or not Jesus shows up there is a matter of opinion I suppose. Perhaps Jesus does show up sometimes in some church buildings.

    But this I know – Jesus is out there among the people. That is where I encounter Jesus. That is where I walk beside Jesus. Loving and serving the people Jesus loves, whether with other believers or by myself is how I ascribe worth to Jesus.

    I understand that most of the people on this forum are deeply embedded in the culture of church buildings, meeting there to worship, hear sermons & have someone watch the kids for an hour and so on. That just doesn’t work for lots of us any more. Millions of us, I suspect. Thankfully we have other believers we meet with and talk with almost daily. Frightfully, many who have left the building do not.

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  48. I am a seminary student working on attaining my Masters of Divinity. This past summer I began my search for an internship site. I work full time for a university’s IT department, have a wife and 3 kids under the age of 11. I wanted to find a church close to my home that would provide me a good all-around exposer to pastoral ministry. (I would have been happy to continue at my little baptist home church but there are rules against that.) The final step in the process involved visiting two churches that had expressed interest in me and I them. The first was a larger Episcopal church with a variety of services including a very rocking contemporary service. The second church was a small Mennonite church who sang traditional hymns a Capella and in four part harmony. I brought my whole family to each church on Sunday morning in order to experience their worship and their sense of community.

    After experiencing each church I asked my boys (8 and 11) which church they liked better. To my surprise BOTH boys preferred the simple Mennonite church with their richly sung hymns! They told me that they thought the people were more friendly, and that they liked the music better.

    Both churches were very intentional about building complete worship services, but the stark simplicity and beauty of the Mennonite service moved them. (My wife and I were equally moved, but wanted to get their input before sharing our experiences.)

    I’ve been serving in this congregation since September and I’ve come to realize that worship is not something that can be approached in either a purely emotional way, or with a prescribed formula. It is not about the songs we sing or the way we sing them. Worship is what happens when we allow ourselves to experience an awareness of God’s love and presence. Corporately, worship has little to do with the music we sing, but requires that we set aside our petty passions and desires in a sincere attempt to please our creator. To this degree, I have found leading worship to be more challenging than preaching. Analyzing and exegeting scripture to present a contemporary message is far more mechanical an art than walking a crowd of people into the presence of the living God. God bless and God blessed those who are gifted that way!

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  49. So very true that in churches, the standard of good musicianship has slipped. Great Christians of the past used to write oratorios. Now, anything will do. Many of the simple praise songs don’t communicate the theology that the old hymns get across, either. One church I was in that had excellent teaching but lousy music actually thought that good music detracted from the teaching, and members would point out all the churches that had orchestras and beautiful music but were dead spiritually, as if there was a connection. We don’t have to sound like the New York Philharmonic, but we should strive for excellence, no matter what kind of music we prefer. When asking about intonation and rhythm, I grew tired of being told that “it’s good enough for church music,” as though our standard should be lower.

    And I agree with Chaplain Mike that there needs to be room for different types of music. Sometimes that need can be met with different services, but it can be incorporated into the same service.

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  50. Thank you Chaplain Mike for this post,

    I want to learn from this so I am trying to be sure that I don’t focus too much on musical preference and attend to the issue at hand. It seems that one way to phrase the issue is this. How do we maintain the integrity of the church as the gathered family of God even while we must make decisions about the patterns of our common life?

    This question has particular application to our gathering for Sunday services, but of course it plays out in so many other ways. My grandfather (a long time preacher in Chicago and Tennessee) tells the story of a church that split over the fried chicken dinner. For years the fried chicken was cooked in lard, but many were excited about a new product called Crisco. As long as the older generation held a majority in the ladies home circle they insisted on using lard. And then at one meeting the younger group realized they were now in the majority and the next supper they switched to Crisco. The hurt feelings from that use of power formed a wedge in their relationships that ultimately split the church between traditionalists and non. I like this story because it makes it clear that the issue is about power not about fried chicken (or even drums vs. organ).

    Raising the issue of course is only part of the problem because the question still stands. Churches do make decisions about their patterns of communal life. (Even the decision to do the same thing each week is a decision.) And when we must make a decision that is not unanimous, we open ourselves up to the abuse of power. This is why Phil 2 and Romans 12-15 should be essential reading and regular reading for all those who lead the family of God. In my church, we regularly face the reality that patterns of communal life (programs, groups, classes, mission projects, music styles, worship formats, etc.) no longer serve the needs of the body or the purpose of the church, or that it requires resources that should be used other places. You can be sure that even when this reality is clear to many people it will not be clear to those who have loved and sustained these patterns of our family’s life.

    This is heart-breaking difficulty of being a family together. My heart breaks for this woman. And I am angry with the leaders of this church. But my heart also breaks for the leaders of the church. They are likely right that their choir needed to be disbanded. However if this action was done in a way that damaged the body, or failed to find the value for every member of the body, then they were wrong even when they were right.

    I have written too much for a blog comment so I will end with this suggestion. The key issues are how does God’s family makes decision about their patterns of family life and in this process how can we use power in a Christlike way that serves and builds up without dividing or tearing down.

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  51. I feel you. My area is pretty barren as well. Things like this can’t reverse overnight. But it helps to know what sort of churches to look in. SBC gives low odds, Calvary Chapel even worse. PCA, AMiA, URCNA, and other conservative denominations with older roots tend to be more fruitful and have richer worship. If they have absolutely no presence in your area, have hope, because these are very missional and church planting groups. I think a good strategy would be not to hope for the unregenerate thrill seekers to return, but to reach out to those in the community who have no church experience. They might prefer some real relationships and a reverent form of worship to what they can get on TV any day of the week.

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  52. I guess I’m lucky. I prefer the contemporary worship, but grew to really miss the hymns (even though I didn’t go to church much as a youngster, and so didn’t grow up on them). I do recall in college that the pastor thought contemporary music was “evil,” a la Bill Gothard. 🙂 But our church has 2 services, one more traditional and one contemporary, and it works. The music leaders work well together, and I play flute in the traditional service. The music director writes many parts for me and other musicians, and often accompanies me, and is also knowledgeable about musical styles. He is not against my playing something difficult, though he has cautioned me that some members attending that service might not appreciate it at times. So I have a chance to use my talent and attend the service with music I also enjoy. I often don’ t realize how unusual that is.

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  56. Sarah – great idea about the quarterly performance. I would just be sure to promote it as a “performance”, not a “worship service”.

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  57. Mike, tying in with your post a few weeks ago – a Suggested Program For The Church –
    You envisioned the musical portions of a worship service as simple and participatory. You also suggested that people be more “vocational” outside of church, with the example of participating in a community softball league rather than forming a church softball league.
    Is there a musical equivalent to the community softball league for your friend who likes to sing choral music?
    Or, as some posters have implied, should the church facilitate every musical interest and expression as an act of kindness?

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  58. This is wonderful news, Adrienne! I hope the church will be a blessing to you and you to the church.

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  59. we had karaoke nite in our house group Friday nite meeting. now that was a blast!

    the neat dynamic i observed was this: all generations participated whole heartedly. was quite the sight to see…

    in a church service? well, i could argue that yes, ‘theoretically’ one could be worshipful doing karaoke, however, i would not particularly appreciate the experience. but other posters have also suggested an appropriate venue or opportunity for godly gifts & talents to be expressed & a loving way to incorporate & encourage them maybe as a special presentation. we do drama at our church. not a regular every Sunday thing, but it is incorporated. and we do video presentations done by the young people. homemade skits they have created. there are ways to honor those that have served in church services without the artificial stage element intended to show-off rather than bring glory to God…

    anyway, thanx for the responses…

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  60. David,

    Just for clarity……I only said “devil music” because that’s how I was raised! It was partly sarcasm. Just sayin’ *smile*

    “I found the evangelical church I was formerly in was more about entertaining non Christians than Christians worshipping God”

    True! Gotta get those seats filled!

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  61. @suzanne & eagle:

    like i’ve said here before: let the church renounce its tax exempt status and we’ll see how many of the faithful are left. we’ll see how many pastors remain.

    i think we’d be shocked to see the void that would be created. many who are regarded as “called” and “set-apart” would no longer be there.

    why?

    because being in ministry can be lucrative. it is a tax-free enterprise, and modeling the church growth paradigms that it does, the north american evangelical empire successfully ‘design(s) and run(s) an organization that will get and keep people involved in activities.’ it’s a business. period.

    wake up christians, the game is fixed, the fix is on, and Jesus wept.

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  62. I think you make some really good points. But I am one who was rescued by the “worship wars”. I came to know Jesus through people at a “seeker-friendly” service with a rock band.

    I’m posting this just to point out that many discount contemporary worship – your comments about churches using such being missions rather than churches, for example. I could just as easily discount liturgical churches as “going through the motions”; many of the liturgical services I’ve attended have been all about the ritual and not about Jesus. But I don’t believe that is true of all liturgical services and I know that what you are saying is also untrue of all contemporary services.

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  63. Yes please clarify. How has the church today redefined “worship”. I posted earlier on this but yea, it seems like the tack is more about music style. As I said, that is not the right question at all. God does not desire our sacrifice of music. He desires worship.

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  65. @david: now i’m not saying that you are saying this, but your comment:

    ‘First and foremost, there are no perfect churches. Anywhere. Get that point.’

    just does not sit well with me and never has. i agree with the logic of this assertion, but i have seen it abused and used as a silencer too many times to not cringe when i hear anyone touting that line.

    the problem for me is that, if the church itself really accepted that it is not perfect and that it is full of hypocrites, then that should open the church up to the subsequent correction that being a flawed hypocrite brings with it. if i now that i am a hypocrite, then i am not surprised when someone points that out. moreover, i welcome such bravery and forthrightness because i do not want to remain a hypocrite.

    sadly, however, the church in my experience has played the “hypocrite card” as a way to silence anyone who does not go along with the particular group think that is occurring within their particular denomination.

    “there is no perfect church”, more often than not, is really just christianese for, “please be quiet and stop asking such difficult questions. we’ve got a good thing going here and really do not appreciate you rocking our boat. so, if you persist in asking such questions and pointing out where and how we are being hypocrites, why don’t you just go start your own church.”

    that last little bit was actually said to me in a conversation that i was having with a “brother” about the church’s response (or lack thereof) to the war in iraq.

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  66. Luke 5:36-39 KJV
    (36) And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
    (37) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
    (38) But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
    (39) No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

    The challenge is to keep the WHOLE body as one family WITHOUT alienating the old OR the new. This is just LIFE!

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  67. Concerning your feelings of cultural displacement, I spent years working in dysfunctional countries and can appreciate your frustrations at reaching out. Somehow along the way we’ve gotten the narrow idea that passing out tracts and extract a verbal decision out of a reprobate sinner is what Jesus commands. Although I failed repeatedly in learning local languages, a smile is the same in any culture. Like St Francis said, share the Gospel and sometimes use words. My objective was to make the love of Jesus shine transparently through me. The fruits of the Spirit translate globally.
    One of the most regrettable legacies of parachurch fundamentalism is how it has accustomed us to private, personal worship in front of the television, as if its the real deal. But being a Christian couch potato is a poor substitute for partaking in a worshiping community.
    Meanwhile, it is often difficult to find true koinonia overseas, and it can be so frustrating on a Sunday morning to look for a fellowship and not know where to start. It seems maybe you’ve thrown in the towel on that one. I’ve found in the spirit of Hebrews 10:25 that lone wolf Christianity doesn’t work; we are called to community for encouragement, learning, giving, and discipline. If you are satisfied with your status quo, great. I loved my alone time with God, but was oh so hungry for fellowship and eventually found it,

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  68. I think you’re right but I don’t see this happening in my neck of the woods…all and I mean 99% of the young I know have left the churches of their upbringing and run to the 3 or 4 mega-entertainment complexes in our county….hence their multi-million dollar “growth”

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  69. Brilliant! and sobering… I shudder to think sometimes what God really thinks of all of this…

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  70. You’ve described me, the “traditionalist” very well. I don’t want to sing just ancient hymns and hear only an organ…but I do want something that is beautiful; that has depth musically and spiritually; that calms my soul and suggests God’s peace…most of CCM does not do that.

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  71. Looks like success sets us up for failure. If you go back and read this rather excellent post as a description of the natural outgrowth of a historical trajectory that began in the 1970’s, one can easily see both where we came from and why we are here. Those of us in our 50’s remember the rise of Youth Groups in the context of the Jesus People movement – a countercultural push to throw off stifling fundamentalism and/or the inauthentic institutional Christianity of the mainline denominations. And we succeeded.

    These youth grew up and thought that what worked in Youth Group should be extended to Worship as a whole. I would suggest that most of the new growth in Evangelicalism in the 1980’s and 1990’s sprang from successful youth groups that set expectations that have now become ingrained and embedded into our Evangelical culture. This is oversimplified, but I suspect we could trace almost every recent innovation back to its roots in the youth group.

    Basically, it’s all Larry Norman’s and Keith Green’s fault.

    OK, not really, but you get my point.

    And that may be nice for helping us see where we came from, but what does that do for where we are headed? Probably the same thing. Look at what we are doing with the Youth and that will be the church in 20 or 30 years. If you say it hasn’t always been thus, might I point us back even further into the 1800’s with the rise of the Sunday School movement. It will take some digging, but read what churches were like before there was Sunday School and then see what happened to congregational worship in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. There was a reason Primitive Baptists in the 1920’s and earlier were opposed to Sunday School and Mission Societies – they were contemporary innovations that altered the ecclesilogical landscape beyond recognition.

    My opinion? Welcome to reality. Change is inevitable (except from a vending machine). Some will get hurt. In the 1970’s in Fundamental churches, it was the young people. In the 2010’s, it is the old people. We cannot please all the people all the time.

    And to be honest, should we be trying?

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  73. Good Morning Chaplain Mike & Family ~ this is not a comment but a prayer request!! Today, after several years of journeying and in large part because of this website, I am going to meet with a local Lutheran pastor to talk about joining the church. Many emotions – including some guilt – you know Lutheran’s are not really believers etc. So I am joyful but sorrowful at the same time. I was a member of a megachurch for the past 20 some years and finally just couldn’t take it anymore. I am 62 and I too lost my job serving the church. So pray for us as we meet and hopefully I begin another chapter of my life. I desire more than ever to worship my Lord, Savior, Friend, Husband, Brother – my ALL – Jesus Christ. Thank you.

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  75. Good one, briank! I particularly like, “Though you bring choice fake ferns, I will have no regard for them.”

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  77. For me worship never has been about going to a specified place at a specified time in specified attire to behave in specified ways and sing certain specified songs. Apparently that is a religious experience for some, but not me.

    For me, worship is using my body, my time and what I have to please God. This includes loving others, especially those who are lonely, grieving, poor, cold & hungry. I don’t need a million dollar temple with stained glass windows and a pipe organ. God gives us the street, the cafe, my neighbors house, the parking lot at the grocery store and a thousand other places where I find people and they find me.

    Today I spent most of my day in a third world country. I rubbed shoulders with the very poor. How can I form relationships with people whose language I can not speak? I must learn their language. God loves them. How can I help but love them? May I use my body as a living sacrifice, pleasing to God. May I tangibly love those He loves, caring about what breaks their hearts and pains their bodies. Yes, God loves them very much, as God loves me very much. May I share God’s love in how I live my life. May I show it to everyone whose path I cross each day.

    This is my worship, to conform not to the pattern of this world, but to be transformed to the mind of God, as shown in His love for all people.

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  78. “In the 20 years or so that followed, your typical american heard perfection in their car, supermarket, at home, jogging, basically anywhere they went. And then they’d show up to church on Sunday and get slaughtered aesthetically with an out of tune piano, or an over zealous organ player, or an “I used to sing solos at my high school 40 years ago” soprano. ”

    This is so true. Most Americans are conditioned to abhor mistakes and are pretty intolerant of amateur music efforts, sadly enough.
    There is another effect of this…..I once had the misfortune of participating in one evangelical church’s worship band that was thoroughly demoralized by the fact that the pastor put so much pressure on the band and the sound engineer (all non-professional volunteers) to sound “just like the CDs” (and no, they weren’t live CDs).

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  80. Why does the “worshipful setting” have to be the service itself? What about the church creating, say, a quarterly “worship music” event on a non-Sunday for the musicians and music fans?
    As for karaoke night, someone with authority should be able to nip that possibility in the bud before anyone thinks of bringing the karaoke machine. I say “should”, however, because, in my experience, most evangelical church leaders are so afraid of hurting people’s feelings that it seriously inhibits them from putting their foot down against bad worship (or music) practices.

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  82. Maybe it is important for people to remember that the Church is ‘like a family’ with people of all ages.

    A memory:
    My husband and I, for many years, sat patiently with my Pop and watched the ‘Lawrence Welk Show’ which Pop dearly loved . . . ‘it’s the only good music left’, he would say. We didn’t love Lawrence Welk’s music, but we loved Pop, and we enjoyed seeing him happy for an hour, amidst all of his medical difficulties. That was a ‘holy’ time, you might say, in our week. Can’t explain that exactly, but it was.

    Old people like the old ways, the old songs, the old hymns.
    Sometimes, it’s good to remember that. It is ‘in giving, we receive’, when we give up our own preferences for what pleases loved family members.. The pay-off? It brings JOY, to everyone involved.
    How is a Church not like a family where there is love ?
    And we are not called to make a JOYFUL noise unto the Lord.?
    So let the old hymns be sung for joy from time to time: those older voices among us will be stilled soon enough. 🙂

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  83. Chaplain Mike – thanks for the article. You nimbly navigated some of the topics that trip most people up eg. race and the premise of church. But there is more on your “Counter Cultural” point. In the Bible we find no such example of preaching in worship service, and very little on the role of music in formal worship service. Yet what are the main to pillars of most evangelical worship services? Preaching and Music. Yeah, I know Jesus preached a bunch of times and some early christians sang a hymn to encourage each other, but show that to me in a context of a worship service. It’s not there. So why even get all worked up about this stuff in the first place? God certainly didn’t find it important enough to dictate a formal mandate of what a service should include. Not to mention this whole argument is based on the western scale (but you already knew that) which is basically just a few hundred years old anyway and we’ve essentially exhausted the 12 tones so our accepted tonality will probably be completely different in a few hundred years anyway, completely dismissing this whole discussion.

    But enough with the compositional theatrics. On a more practical level, “Why did hymns lose the worship battle?” I’ll tell you why. Hymns lost out to guitars and praise bands because of the phonograph was invented. No not the phonograph itself, but the ability to record music and play it a later time is what eventually knocked off the hymnal. And the best part? It really wasn’t the fault of Keith Green, or your spikey haired worship leader, or the impromptu decision made by the deacon board, or any Christian for that matter. By 1950 and 1960, most of the mainstream new recordings that were being released and played on the radio where not traditional sacred music. Most of it was this new thing called rock and roll. But more effective than the enticement of a “new style” of music, was the ability to but out a product that sounded perfect, or polished – recording allowed the music industry to put out a product that didn’t have mistakes.

    In the 20 years or so that followed, your typical american heard perfection in their car, supermarket, at home, jogging, basically anywhere they went. And then they’d show up to church on Sunday and get slaughtered aesthetically with an out of tune piano, or an over zealous organ player, or an “I used to sing solos at my high school 40 years ago” soprano.

    I will argue that churches that produced a good musical product survived. Another way of saying this is “Excellence breeds excellence.” And most churches were caught flat footed. You mentioned your exposure started in the middle 70s, and mine like yours, started in the early 80s. Many churches were coasting along on mediocre musical execution, mediocre sound boards and mics. Many barely tried to be creative within the music that they did know. Many song leaders (now we call ’em worship leaders) thought creativity meant: “ladies on the 2nd, men on the 3rd, all together now on the 4th!” But the other 6 days during the week, congregants heard excellence on the radio and on their recordings, and as humans tend to be, they were inspired and wanted to recreate this excellence.

    You mentioned deacon boards making rash decisions (true) and older christians acting rather non-christian-like in order to preserve their preferences (also true). But the main reason for the hymnal losing its influence is not because congregants were looking for the latest fad or the next big thing, it’s because those charged with communicating the hymnal to the church failed to maximize it’s potential.

    I know, I know, there’s always a church or a minister of music who is the exception. Show me that person and i’ll pat him/her on the back. But it/ they still remain the exception.

    That’s why they hymnal lost.

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  84. To be fair to everyone here, you spent most of the post complaining about music styles and bemoaning the fact that this woman could no loger lead a choir. I walked away from this post this morning thinking you were trying to restart the worship wars and wanting nothing to do with it. I’m glad to hear that wasn’t your intent 🙂

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  86. Pingback: Worship Wars « Daniel Haas

  87. I could care less if nothing was sung at all – as long as we worship with humility, sincerity and Love. But such worship isn’t possible if we do not – a priori – struggle together in Charity to become the Body of Christ. No viable Body of Christ = No authentic worship. Christ is not a commodity to be peddled with such pious marketing concepts. Christ is only evinced into the world through individual hearts inflamed with Christ’s Spirit/Love. The Body of Christ is a collection of people who gather together giving praise for the Love they have found and share through Christ’s Passion and in Christ’s Name. The only thing that we should be known for is “See How They Love One Another.” Is Mother Theresa known for how she worshiped?

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  89. I like P&W music, and I like hymns, and I like Gregorian chant, and I might like plainsong if I heard it. I do NOT like pretentiousness or excess, which can come just as easily via a Powerpoint projector, a fog machine, a towering pipe organ, a massive choir in vestments, or a full orchestra.

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  91. “with all the changes in church “culture” often discussed, criticized, mourned on this blog, more often than not, those negative changes are associated with churches that practice a certain style of music.”

    I would not deny this, Jeff, simply because most churches that have bought into the church growth movement have decided that music is a key element in attracting particular demographics of people to church, and therefore they have transformed “worship” into a stage-centered performance that is designed, if not to entertain, then certainly to stimulate and possibly even manipulate emotions. And the music that does this best in our culture is the music that comes from pop culture.

    “Contemporary music” can be used differently than that, so my problem is not necessarily with the music itself (some of it can certainly enhance worship). The problem is that music is being used as a “tool” to draw and wow a crowd. Strategically, music is being used in the service of church growth first, and that has transformed our understanding of “worship” in ways that I find unhelpful.

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  92. And “specials.” Nothing says Jesus-tainment like a “special” performance by a musician, of any type.

    Maybe rather than an offering plate, the church could just have a cover charge or use ticketmaster, LOL.

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  93. CM,

    I retract. It wasn’t the point of your post (overall!). I stated it better below, when I mentioned that the comments were getting away from the intent of the post. As seen there, I think we all would find a lot more common ground on this issue, if we could set aside the preferences, and realize that the struggles to keep worship what it was meant to be are similar in varying traditions.

    I tend to rant in the opposite direction: when liturgical types seem to imply that they have the corner on purposeful content-filled services. My prideful hackles come up, since I put a lot of time into purposeful content-filled contemporary services, and have seen much tradition made empty for the sake of tradition!

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  94. I don’t care if it is contemporary or traditional; I’m just tired of going to worship and getting entertainment. Whether it is a rocking lead guitar or a classically-trained violinist, the focus is more on the performance than on God. Contemporary services get bashed for it, but traditional services are just as bad.

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  95. Agreed. I’m pretty choosy in my contemporary evangelicalish song selection. There are many ‘popular’ songs that I try to avoid, almost always based on content. And a few that I avoid just because they are musically poor!

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  96. I understand your sentiment behind the statement “there should be a place for any trained musician or choir singer or whatever the gift/talent is that could be utilized in a worshipful setting.”
    In reality you can end up being an enabler to karaoke night… would you like your service to look like this?

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  97. Worship is not about making the worshipper feel good or about attracting people to a local church. Worship is declaring the worth of God to God. It is intended for God’s ears and God’s heart. We worship God because God deserves and enjoys worship, not for what we get out of it. Church is not about drawing people to us because we offer what they want. It is about banding together as a community so that we may encourage each other to follow Christ in our daily lives, and meeting with Christ Himself as the center of our community. It is about being His body, so that where the Church goes, Christ goes, and what the Church does, Christ does. A pastor’s role is the care of souls, encouraging his people to see God and to seek God in every circumstance of life, even when His silence may seem deafening. His role is to encourage them in their journey toward becoming more like Christ in every way, as they develop Godly character and quiet, peaceful and joyfully surrendered hearts. His role is to encourage them to love each other, as well as those outside of the church, even (especially) when they are the most difficult to love. When worship, the church, and the pastor are defined rightly, Christ is displayed in a way that is radically counter-cultural, and the world is shocked by the enormous difference between the way of Jesus and the way of culture and is compelled to decide between the two. The consumer mentality has taken us far adrift of what Jesus intended when He called us to be His Church. Thankfully there are some congregations that still get it. Me we light our candle at their fire.

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  98. When you click the (Read More…) link, you should get the whole page and all comments on the new page. If that doesn’t work for some reason, try clicking the title of the post. It is a link that should open a page with the entire post on it.

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  99. I have seen the same thing in the inner city black churches of Indianapolis, Phil. Suffering has forged a real community, and despite continuing brokenness in so many areas of their lives because of poverty, violence, etc., the unity of the extended family, involvement of all ages, and respect of elders remain important values to them.

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  100. CM,
    I got your point in your essay and in one of my earlier posts, I think I was also trying to convey the idea that notwithstanding my dislike for the music style, the real issue was the total disregard (even contempt) for the half of the church that didn’t find meaning in that style—some sort of cordial compomise seems like it should have been possible among professing Christians. However, I wonder if trying to make the stark separation is really possible. Don’t get me wrong—churchgoers involved with classical music can be haughty, condescending, real jerks sometimes. But it seems that with all the changes in church “culture” often discussed, criticized, mourned on this blog, more often than not, those negative changes are associated with churches that practice a certain style of music. We can try to say it’s not a question of style, but it seems almost unavoidable to notice the correlation. Maybe that’s too pessimistic and I don’t mean to offend by asking, but I think it’s a worthwhile question.

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  103. Chaplain Mike,

    Off topic. Let me assure you as a one time member (haven’t paid my dues this year) of SCV Camp #469 it was a war of Northern Aggression, and we were not Rebels. Rebels seek to overthrow a government. It was not a civil war in the classic sense of the word. 🙂

    I say this only half way in jest. This is the 150 year annivesary of the War Between the States.

    Like your post. Couldn’t agree more.

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  104. Good evening everyone. What a great topic! Everyone always has an opinion on what “true worship” is and what it looks like. The obvious answer is that “true worship” is not about music or styles, it’s about relationship. But you know us Christians… we just have to have music. Every generation there is always some group of believers that say they are being “pushed out” for the new/secular styles of worship. At one point, hymns were frowned upon, but now they are “sacred cows” that must be preserved and held holy. Yeah, I’m not buying it! But anywat, I just have a few quick points.

    1) Did anyone find out the othe side of this post? I mean, did anyone ask the leadership at the “megachurch” what their side was? I’m not saying that the lady was not truthful, but sometimes we hear what we want to hear and interpet it not how it was intended. We shouldn’t condemn anyone or any ministry without knowing both sides.

    2) Who decides what type of worship is appropriate in the church? If the members decide, then would that be a “seeker sensitive” church? God called me to plant a church and I did. I never take a vote on what I will preach or what music I will use. I pray about it. God is not going to bring everyone to my church, and therefore I do HIS will, not the people’s will. There are plenty of churches out there that worship different than my church and preach the same TRUTH! So really… what does it matter if I have a choir, band, or ipod? When I was helping a pastor of a COGIC (church of God in Christ), they played ALL GOSPEL!!! I mean… all gospel, all the time! Everyone that came to their church hear GOSPEL! I even brought in a contemporary band and they loved it… but they never tried to change in the slightest… they still played GOSPEL. And even if they had a contemporary song, they turned it into Gospel. That was what they were doing and they reached a “specific” group of people and it worked.

    3) My final point (main point) is simply this… it doesn’t really matter how you sing, if you have your priorities in order. God loves worship, but desires so much more. In the beginning God created Adam and Eve. No where in the beginning did it say that Adam “worshiped God”. Instead it said that Adam “walked with God”. In fact, it wasn’t until Genesis 4:26 that the bible says that Seth had a son Enosh and this is when people began “worshiping God”. That was awesome, but God still desired that we “walk with Him”. If you don’t agree, keep reading to Genesis 5:24… the bible talks about Enoch. It does NOT say that Enoch “worshiped God and was no more…”. But it says that ‘Enoch “walked with God” and was no more’. While everyone else was giving God lip service, Enoch touched God’s heart by walking with him and God had to have him closer.

    You see, when truth is preached and not petty differences… it won’t matter what your mind says the definition of worship is… because your life will have already defined it!

    Just my toughts,
    You all have a wonderful night.

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  105. Here in middle America, it’s Rock-On Jesus in churches and many of those in authority want to time stop to the pre-Sixties when women and minorities knew their places.

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  106. One thing I’ve noticed is that the practice of throwing grandma under the bus, so to speak, is a lot more prevalent in churches that are predominantly white than in other ethnic congregations. We recently left the area we were in, but in the predominantly African American church my wife and I attended, the pastors and the congregants went out of their way to honor the older members of the church, and a lot of the seasoned citizens were involved in the worship band. Actually, age wise, the band spanned from preteen kids to people in their 70’s. I just didn’t see the same sort angst in that environment that plagues other churches I’ve been in.

    Perhaps it is because these churches have developed their own unique worship vocabulary over the years, and they are very concerned about passing that tradition down. I also think there is more an idea that we are all family in a church like that. Heck, all the older women in the congregation use “Mama” or “Mother” as a title before their names.

    I will also say that the music at the church was probably louder than any other church I’ve been to. The older people don’t seem to complain, though. Most of them seem to genuinely enjoy being there.

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  107. it was the post-modern, emerging, forsake-the-institutional-church types that wanted to encourage the arts in greater expression in their spiritual spaces & gatherings. seems there should be a place for any trained musician or choir singer or whatever the gift/talent is that could be utilized in a worshipful setting…

    reminds me of a theoretical scenario where a fictional contemporary church eliminates the service position of ‘tape duplication’ based on the newer technology…

    or the official church picture taker replaced by someone more comfortable dealing with digital imagery instead of, [gasp], actual film…

    there was a post not too long ago about the technical advances impacting how ‘church’ was being done now.

    when it comes to skills & talents & a deliberate place within the order of service to allow such giftings to be expressed is a way to show honor where honor should be given. if the impersonal dismissal of people simply because they are deemed irrelevant to the way church is done is done in the name of newness or efficiency or being cutting edge, then i must include my disgust at the callousness of such behavior. since when does the insensitivity of becoming bigger, better or more upbeat can now be passed off as being more Christlike? with the way our economy is & the resulting joblessness a very real point of suffering for many Christians, deliberately relegating long serving members to the ‘now obsolete’ bin of ministry is simply wack! yeah, make people feel either used & under appreciated, or ignored & considered unwanted. what a classic example of what the gospel is not…

    Lord have mercy… 😦

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  108. Talking about exhibiting kindness to the worship war “losers” – – in my experience, the musicians who have exhibited the least amount of kindness in our church were the orchestra members brought in for TRADITIONAL music special events (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and a Summer blowout).
    They demand the closest parking spots, displacing our elderly and disabled… and we’re not talking about the percussionist or harpist with heavy gear… we’re talking about violinists. They have short tempers when children get close to their instruments. And it’s been the traditional vocal soloists who demand to wear white or red when everyone else is in “concert black”. The pettiness is astounding, especially given the shrinking demand for their particular talents.
    In contrast, the contemporary band musicians are relatively easy-going. (Heck, they’re happy as long as they don’t have to wake up too early.) Must be because they’re used to playing in bars and touring in vans.

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  109. Point missed, Biff. I feel sorry for her because her church and pastors were not church and pastors to her. The music situation was just the context.

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  110. I can relate to Rebekah,
    I enjoy listening to heavy metal.
    However I don’t think church was the place for it.
    I found the evangelical church I was formerly in was more about entertaining non Christians than Christians worshipping God.
    I am now out of the post evangelical wilderness and have found a home in the Greek Orthodox church.
    I no longer have mony of the issues expressed on this site.
    I appreciate the Orthodox chanting to facilitate contemplation, reflection etc.
    Also I enjoy listeing to heavy metal, Iron Maiden, Metallica in the car or exercising.
    (By the way, using discernment not all secular/ heavy metal music is the devil’s music – much of it is about just being human though not in a sinful way)

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  111. Would you feel so sorry for this woman if she had been an accordianist instead of a choirgirl?

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  114. Well, Suzanne, my first answer would be in 1000 A.D. But I could be off by a year or two…

    Your point, though, is right on target…

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  115. I just want to add that It’s not just those on the traditional side of the worship wars that lose out….a modern worship team I led was replaced by pre-recorded worship DVDs that were projected upon big screens….guess we were not good enough, or that real musicians, with all of their human failings, were too much of a nuisance for the church to deal with. 😦
    I am learning the hard way that there is simply no place for a middle-aged musician (with decades of training and experience in both traditional and modern church music styles), in any of the churches in my town. And it distresses me how unkind the churches (represented by their leaders) have been about it.

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  116. JIm, I think I must not have been clear. I mean songs about how God is blessing me, how all this and that and the other is there for the taking, how…in other words, songs NOT about what God is doing, but what I deserve.

    Then there is the whole other topic of Jesus is my boyfriend/girlfriend songs.

    Worship is about who God is and the greatness of his being, his works, his faithfulness, etc. You are right–it’s not about what we do. That is what I was trying to get across. Thanks for the assist…

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  117. Calebite, that has been the focus of many comments, but it was certainly NOT the point of the post. I can only assume that either you didn’t read the post carefully or that I communicated poorly.

    The problem is not a style of music.

    The problem is that the church has changed the meaning of “church,” “pastor,” and “worship.”

    Our preoccupation with music styles is a surface issue.

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  118. I am not a loser in the worship wars because I like traditional music and not contemporary. I am a loser in this war because the evangelical church has changed its definition of what “church” is, what “pastor” is, and what “worship” is. These changes are the real problem. The “worship wars” about music styles are a surface issue.

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  119. Dadgum! I wish I had written this! This is exactly where we have missed hearing and following the Lord’s “still, small voice” to love and include everyone, not just a demographic that can make church economically sustainable or apparently effective.

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  120. There is a huge undocumented movement of younger evangelicals desiring older music. And the bulk of it is probably in the PCA. “The Oaks” in your town is one manifestation of it, and so is Sojourn church in Kentucky, a liturgical and hymn based SBC. This blog is a part of pointing many 20 something evangelicals such as myself down the ancient-future path. Don’t worry, I believe the overdose of pragmatism, chronological snobbery, and embarrassingly blatant trendiness is a flash in the pan. People are getting more sick of it as we speak. I don’t think it will bear as strong of a mark on the future of the church as it appears to now. The church does stupid things, it has in every age, and will continue to. But the good will survive. The gospel will go out, and he who marries the spirit of the age will soon find himself a widower. I think that much of the source of this worship malpractice is rooted in the corrupt theology of Wesleyan pietistic revivalism, and while Calvinism may not be the cure all solution for the situation, the rise in popularity in reformed theology (including Lutherans and Anglicans) I see as only a good thing, and a step in the right direction.

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  121. Eric, I think that Phos Hilaron always was a ‘vespers’ hymn . . . sunset was a time of prayer for Christian people from time immemorial . . . the ‘hours’ in the Latin liturgy are connected to Christian traditions so old that few can account for when they began.

    Nice to pray as the early Christians prayed . . . removes time as a barrier to the Body of Christ.

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  122. Did you actually read the post beyond the first few paragraphs, Deborah? You and many others are completing missing the point of the rant. Let me spell it out: it’s not about music; it’s about what church should be.

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  126. It is only through outside observation that I see worship wars – the signs on the churches, the battle for membership, catering to what people want….

    When a church is geared like a business, in this case to gather bodies for membership, it will conform to whatever technique increases that membership.

    What would you think of a church that has service even if only one person shows up? Would you call it rigid and unchanging with the times? Or would it be evident that membership that is guided by what the masses think they want is less important? Liturgical dance, cafe’s for Jesus, Jesus Zumba… too much for me.

    Yes, I have watched people leave my faith expression because they want the fun of the emotion filled service. Not sure what to say about it except – if I want to see a band I’ll go to a bar- because I will “feel” the same at either place I go at that point.

    My thoughts….

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  128. I thank God that my church has found a way to incorporate both styles in our worship activities. We have three services, and they are each the same – no splitting between contemporary or traditional.

    Every Sunday the worship director tries to have at least ONE traditional hymn, along with whatever songs seem appropriate for the topic the Pastor has tipped them off to, or the celebration on the church calendar (Christmas, Missionary Sunday, etc.). There might be more hymns, or more choruses. We also not only have a choir, but we have a small orchestra. Our church isn’t really a mega church, but more like a mid sized church. Our building only holds 300-320 ppl, and we don’t fill it every service (we have parking issues, too, when services are ending/beginning).

    I see a wonderful blend of families with children of all ages, and many folks with gray hair and laugh lines in their faces. I pray that this will be the trend for God’s people.

    Bless you!
    Dodi

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  129. Eagle….just want you to know that what you seek does exist… although it may not be in evangelical circles….

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  130. For all the talk of priesthood of believers, some aspects of Protestant liturgy (worship) do send the message that lay people exist to hear, not to be heard.

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  131. I wish I had a learned comment to contribute; I don’t. I can only sigh in sadness at how Chaplain Mike’s new friend was treated by a congregational leadership that cares more about things (like a new worship style or its implementation) than people. And at how common that attitude is in the American church today.

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  132. According to the latest Christianity Today magazine, the worship wars are over. So why the rant? 🙂 I thought worship was a matter of the heart and all about my relationship to God. I’ve never been to a church where I thought I couldn’t worship….that includes everything from Church of Christ (no instruments) to Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, to the very contemporary, rockin’ praise band mega- churches. As long as the songs lift up the name of Jesus, it’s all good!!

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  133. Thank you for offering the other side. It’s ironic to me that many decry the performance orientation of contemporary worship, and then ask for choirs and special music instead so that people can use their talents for worship. I grew up singing in church choirs and providing special music, and find that the contemporary worship I lead now is so much more participatory.

    I think this post was meant to start a discussion concerning the purpose of worship. Instead, it’s become a forum to bash contemporary evangelical music for those who would prefer a different style – whether it is the “powerful, powerful music” in an Orthodox service or the choir/orchestra in a traditional service.

    I will readily agree with critiques that evangelical worship is often happy clappy with no real purpose or meat. It needs purpose and direction and has much to learn from liturgy. But, as I attend liturgical services – Protestant and Catholic – and see the vast majority of people going through the motions and missing the purpose and direction that their liturgy richly provides, I realize that going through the motions at a service that is comfortable to the worshipper is not unique to evangelicalism.

    I hear the same criticisms expressed here from the ex-mainline, ex-liturgical or ex-Catholic members of our evangelical congregations:
    – There was no sense of community, people showed up in time for the Eucharist and left when the service finished.
    – It wasn’t Christ-centered, I never heard the gospel until ________________.
    – Everything was done a certain way, and there was no room for new ideas or differing opinions.
    – Liturgy was meaningless repetition, so now I want to sing this same inane chorus 500 times in a row!

    Seems like we all have the same problems! Glorifying God above all; purposeful, meaningful worship; strong community and keeping sinful people focused on what’s really important.

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  134. When I was a Roman Catholic, they had different masses to reach different portions of the “family.” They had guitar masses for the younger folks and the good ole organ with choir for the older folks. They had the French speaking mass for the French-Canadians and masses with no music at all.

    I am a winner in this war because I love the contemporary stuff.

    So, the answer is to have more than one service.

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  135. Wikipedia cut-and-paste, converted to unaccented Symbol Font so it displays on all browsers. 🙂

    Here it is with the accents:

    Φῶς ἱλαρὸν ἁγίας δόξης ἀθανάτου Πατρός,
    οὐρανίου, ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ,
    ἐλθόντες ἐπὶ τὴν ἡλίου δύσιν, ἰδόντες φῶς ἑσπερινόν,
    ὑμνοῦμεν Πατέρα, Υἱόν, καὶ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, Θεόν.
    Ἄξιόν σε ἐν πᾶσι καιροῖς ὑμνεῖσθαι φωναῖς αἰσίαις,
    Υἱὲ Θεοῦ, ζωὴν ὁ διδούς· διὸ ὁ κόσμος σὲ δοξάζει.

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  137. Agree that protestants have not rejected it either. Passion – Hymns Ancient and Modern has a remake of the hymn that I have used many times. Not wide spread, I am sure, but on an album from the heart of evangelical worship movement.

    I find most contemporary evangelicals don’t have any issue with hymns, as long as they aren’t done at half-speed on the organ.

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  138. If this were the point of this post, I could almost buy in. But, the point of this post and the comments following it seem to be the opposite of yours – that we need to go back to the organ, choir and hymns, instead of contemporary music. Seems to me that most of this is people whining that they aren’t getting what they would prefer.

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  139. As both a keyboardist in a traditional church and in several rock bands, I want to offer a different perspective:

    I’ve seen a lot of Christian vocalists and instrumentalists who are primarily looking for a place to PERFORM; lyrics about God add a veneer of “ministry / service ” to it.
    And in my experience, this happens just as much in traditional choirs as in praise bands. The choir may be technically talented, and the music may be intellectually stimulating, but the choir is often no more (or no less) worship-oriented than the Mommy and Me class, or any number of other special-interest church programs.

    I love to sing older hymns and incorporate them into the worship service. However, we keep it simple during corporate WORSHIP time, with out a lot of harmonizing, male vs. female vocal tradeoffs, solos, etc; the focus is on what we are saying to God while in His presence.
    Those traditionalists who are interested in a more technically sophisticated exercise are encouraged to get involved vocationally in a community choral group. Likewise, “for those about to rock” we refer you to your neighborhood garage band.

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  140. I am not that old yet at 59, but I do remember being a little unkind about the wavering soprano voices of the older women in the adult choir of my parent’s church. The choir always came in singing from the back down the center aisle and I liked that, it was dramatic. They still do it that way at the church my eighty-something parents attend in Florida, with the booming pipe organ music. It’s like a blast from the past.

    At my church the choirs and hymnals went away years ago. I miss the special music the most. Whether it was a trumpeter or a string quartet or even just a female or male trio with a special song to share. I enjoyed it all. It also gave those with special music gifts a way to utilize their talents. Maybe at times there was too much emphasis on the performance and the applause. Now it is only the worship team with guitars and drums. Not a gray hair among them as I think about it. At least we still have natural light coming into the sanctuary.

    My daughter and son-in-law attend a mega church in another state. They have auditoriums or theaters in my opinion instead of sanctuaries, with top of the line stage lighting and audio equipment but no windows to let in natural light. Our children love their church and everything about it though, and for twenty-somethings that is significant. They were married up on the stage in one of the auditoriums and it seemed a bit dark and cold to me despite our attempts to decorate. They asked their favorite preaching pastor there to perform their ceremony but he doesn’t do weddings. The pastor who did perform the wedding was warm and personal though.

    I don’t have any answers, just these observations as the evangelical church has transformed over time. It is a great loss if the people no longer get to hear the musical gifts of the classically trained musicians. It is a shame if churches no longer perform many weddings delegating that over to the wedding venue industry. It is a shame when a group of seniors wait outside the sanctuary until the praise music ends before entering for the sermon because the music hurts their hearing aids. It is a shame when the only ones who show up for intercession hour week after week for corporate prayer are mostly the senior citizens. Is corporate prayer old fashioned too? Have any of you seen videos of the worship at the house churches in China? They put our worship to shame.

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  142. Which it no doubt will be, Eagle! When oh when did American Christianity stop bowing at the altar of God and start bowing at the altar of Business?

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  143. Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
    Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος Ιησου Χριστε,
    Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
    Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
    Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
    Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
    Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει.

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  145. These are both myths about Luther. Find some documentation and I will retract this statement.

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  146. Jeff,

    I think I know where are you are “coming from”, but I disagree that true worship is not what God is doing for me. This EXACTLY what should be spoken and sung about in church. It does focus on the greatness of God and what he has done for me/us through Christ’s work.

    Too much CW is about what I must do for God and MY work.

    That is what separates true Christian worship from all the other religions. The others all focus on what I do to please God or get his blessings. God really does not need our works, but our neighbors do.

    We get the Word and sacraments on Sunday, and share that love and grace with our “neighbors” the other 6 days of the week.

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  147. Hi ERIC,

    I love the Orthodox . . . I am Roman Catholic, but my godmother was Ukrainian Catholic (Byzantine rite, I think), and they had a liturgy all of their own, though they were in union with Rome.

    If I am not mistaken, the ‘O Gladsome Light’, originally written in Greek, was translated into Latin and used in Catholic liturgical worship also.
    BTW, that ‘melody’ was by Roman Hurko, who also wrote a beautiful memorial liturgical suite for the remembrance of the victims of the Chernobyl disaster. The choir singing is Ukrainian. (Orthodox, I think)

    Phos Hilaron is so ancient, it predates all divisions. I don’t think Protestants would reject it, either, as a hymn.

    I so love the Orthodox liturgies and music, Eric.
    ‘Ethereal’ . . . you could stand for three hours listening to that liturgy, and lose track of time, so that it would seem only minutes gone by . . . powerful, powerful music.

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  148. Hey Eagle…..I hear ya! Everything you said there is validated from me and my past experiences!!!

    But…….

    I’m a Christian. And there ain’t no facade or phoniness to me! I’m not the only one! I can’t be! There’s more of us out there…….the ones taking the narrow road……I’m just not sure how to find them.

    So……I’ll be one instead.

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  149. For all the world, it looked as though Jesus was a loser.

    St. Paul, and the rest of the apostles, likewise.

    The Lord has a way of bringing back that which belongs to Him.

    It may not look too good, but often that is when the Lord impliments His plans.

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  150. Only obliquely related: Where do I sign to get the word “ministry” banned? Seriously, it has achieved a life of it’s own.

    Of course, couple it with the word “worship”, and I need a barf bag.

    Maybe it’s just me…

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  151. By the way, I love the Simpsons cartoons CM put in the post. I laugh thinking about the scenes they came out of.

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  152. I feel for your frustration. I’ve been blessed enough to be in congregations through a lot of my life in which I’ve been able to share piano music and also served as a classically-oriented church organist for many years. But for me, the frustration is that the choices now seem to be either a YEC, Sarah-Palin-promoting church with heavy metal rock bands in which sensitive, worshipful classical music offerings are aggressively unwelcome or a gay-rights-promoting, Kahlil-Gibran-reading church with Bach in which any inkling of conservative thought is also unwelcome. I don’t mean to be unkind in those words, but that’s how I feel. Again, I share the frustration.

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  153. …end up with about 100 arrows in my backside no matter what I do!”

    Hang in there liturgists! About a third of the Denver Seminary student body has visited our Anglican church and many are there or with a new church plant. The return to liturgical theology is small but vital movement.

    On changing the status quo, I just posted a cartoon on my blog…

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  154. Re “Rock-On Jesus model”: Out here in California, we have something similar in academia and politics where it’s called “The Thin Grey Ponytails model.” Thin Grey Ponytails as in aging Sixties counterculture types now in positions of authority trying to time-stop everything in their own Glory Days of 1968. Groovy, Man…

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  155. @ Suzanne…that’s becuase evangelical Christianity in the United States is largely a business model. They approach everything from a marketing and sales view point which is driven be numbers. Take out the worship…look at how mega churches measure their “success” How many campuses they have? How many people are involved? I remember back in 2009 being at a wedding and hearing someone describe a mega church as being succesful because of how many Bible studies they had. I sat back and thought to myself..”S#!*…they’re measuring success just like I measured success when I worked in sales and marketing in doing analysis of ROI (Return on investment) and RR (response rate)”

    Remember the church in the United States is a business!!!! The only thing that hasn’t happened yet is it being tradeded on Wall Street….

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  156. @Christiane:

    Yep. “O Gladsome Light” as some call it. We sung that at every vespers service.

    Gotta go with Eastern Orthodox if you want consistent, reverent, theologically-deep, non-faddish, unchanging, non-conformist, God-and-church-focused, relevant-for-all-ages-because-it’s-what-the-church-has-sung-and-done-literally-for-ages-and-by-all-ages, worship, where even though the choir leads, all sing – and without an organ or other instruments, and definitely without pews. 🙂

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  157. When I was involved Rebekah I would have traded all music, church events, etc.. for some bona fide community. To be in a Bible study and hear people talk about their messy situations at work, difficult bosses, how they lived with their scars in the context of life as they aged, difficulties with alcohol or pornography, etc..

    Just an environment where I could be me and not “Super Christian” who has all their s#!* together. A place where people can be honest about difficulties of life, encourage each other, talk about their doubts and how they can still love God despite difficult doubts, etc..

    But its not to be becuase in order to be a Christian you have to live a facade and be incredibly phoney.

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  158. According to Thomas Aquinas, organ and instrumental music in general did not stimulate devotion. Again according to Schweitzer, the council of Trent imposed very strict regulations governing and restricting the use of organ music in worship. Organ music was also said to have contributed to the downfall of congregational singing. This problem dates back to ancient times.

    The music should not be blamed, rather the leadership. I saw an article recently lamenting that we will probably never see another movie like “Inception”, despite it’s box office success. The article sited that in spite of its success, movie producer think the format is too risky, and that fun, brainless action films or comedies are no-miss investments. I think similar decisions are being made in American churches. Sure, a worship service with substance might attract a few people, but the “Be Happy-Be Nice” worship show packs the house every time.

    We need to go back and ask fundamental questions: why do we worship? Based on that, what should be important, non-negotiable components of worship? What things are a distraction from the ultimate reason for worship? What things make no difference and can be incorporated in worship or left out? I recommend finding a copy of “LIving the Liturgy” by Edgar S. Brown, Jr. and using it as an outline for a worship service. Such a fundamental framework should be laid before adding any externals – organs, guitars, bell choirs, flowers, candles, banners, jumbo-trons, etc. Once the foundation is laid, then these externals can be added back in where they contribute to the ultimate purpose of worship.

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  159. What is wrong with singing the OLDEST Christian hymn (that is not in sacred Scripture) still sung today?
    It is called the ‘Phos Hilaron’ and it transcends people’s ages and tastes and goes straight to the spirit:

    The song was sung by the early Christians who met together inside of the garden tomb where Christ arose from the dead. There, they lit candles and prayed. As the sun set, they emerged from the tomb with their candles lit and from those candles, lit the evening lamps.

    Singing this hymn brings people together with some of the earliest of Christian people in the praise of God
    ‘with reverent voices’:

    Phos Hilaron (The Gentle Light):

    “Gentle Light of the Holy Glory
    of the Immortal and Heavenly Father
    Holy and Blessed O Jesus Christ

    Having come to the setting of the sun
    Beholding the Light of evening
    We sing to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
    God

    Thou art worthy at every moment
    To be praised in hymns by reverent voices
    O Son of God, Giver of Life
    All the world glorifies Thee”

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  161. I think it goes deeper than that.

    I’m all for crakin’ up some really fantastic tunes! You know, when I’m making dinner, cleaning the house, driving. But the “headbanging” in church felt misplaced.

    And I’m not old. Err…..uhhh…..maybe I am.

    I just don’t want what the trends are telling us to do! I crave to gather with other people who JUST WANT JESUS! And the rest can stay at the door!

    I had to laugh at your “Amish Bonnet Romance” phrase though! Ha!

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  162. Wow, what a great topic. First and foremost, there are no perfect churches. Anywhere. Get that point. Everyone likes and dislikes parts of their church. Churches are run by people, who are flawed. Even Christian leaders. So pointing out that this church or that church did or didn’t float my boat is very much focused on me.

    Second, what is a church? That is an important question to answer and your answer will impact how you feel after visiting any particular church.

    Third, many churches are missing the most important part – the only focus being on Jesus. Numbers and programs are a waste of time if attenders aren’t discovering or growing in relationship with Christ. Choir or rock band, doesn’t matter unless hearts are breaking and becoming repentant, and then being renewed.

    It is a shame to see so many comments from those who felt a pull to God, only to have their church experience push them away. I would caution any in that boat – don’t judge the God by the church. There are good and bad churches, but only God is great. Meet a loving Christian one on one, read the Bible, and accept that it may take more than one stop to find your church home.

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  163. Sounds like the ongoing battle of consumeristic preferences. The “Why do we insist…” is valid. The successor is off the mark. The platform/pew; performance/passivity paradigm perpetuates. It’s an ecclesiastical theater district out there. Let’s get back to authentic gift-exercising community. I think we’re headed that way anyway like a reverse diaspora.

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  164. Give me the traditional liturgical music any day. I’ve heard some of the shallow versions of what passes for ‘praise’ music, and I’m glad it helps some people, but there’s got to be MORE to praise than music like that.

    Does everything have to be ‘new’ and ‘improved’? I remember when ‘Chant’ was a best-selling album in Europe not so very long ago. And ‘Be Thou My Vision’ . . . a thousand years old and still even Protestants will sing it.

    Give ’em something ancient and powerful, with percussion if they must have it, and watch their faces come alive.

    http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=DGfBwWrNOic&feature=related

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  165. It is true that it was common in Luther’s time to borrow secular tunes for use in sacred music. As Luther exclaimed, “the devil does not need all the good tunes for himself” (no, Larry Norman did not originate this). But as documented by Schweitzer, by Bach’s time, available tunes from which to borrow were exhausted, which ushered in the “epoch of the composer”. American evangelicalism may be reaching that point; contemporary worship songs are running out of secular music to imitate.

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  166. My children are in their 20s and they, and many of their friends, also have no interest in the Rock-On Jesus model of church. They think it’s lame.

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  167. Very true. And Bach, according to Albert Schweitzer in his two-volume study of Bach’s works, was criticized being influenced by contemporary Italian cantatas of his time. But according to Schweitzer, Bach was still deeply rooted in the medieval period. He truly is the inventor of ancient/future worship.

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  168. A quick point about Bach from a music history perspective…I think that it’s interesting to note that in Bach’s first few church appointments he ran into trouble from church authorities who tended towards Pietism and regarded his music as being too complex for “appropriate” worship! Further, the cantatas written in Leipzig were regarded by contemporaries who knew his work as being somewhat stuffy and in an out-of-date style even then; this particular part of Bach’s output remained in obscurity until the Bach revival in the 19th century. The point is that battles and debates about what constitutes appropriate or up-to-date church music is nothing new.

    That being said, as a classically trained pianist and musician I wholeheartedly agree with the thrust of Chaplain Mike’s post. I have two strokes against me: I have never been able to master the type of improvisational playing necessary for successful viewed as necessary for playing either traditional hymns or contemporary praise music. I have experienced a great deal of frustration over my life wondering why God gave me a gift that can’t be used to worship Him in church, and have seen the lack of charity described in the “worship wars”. This post is very revealing, as I think it hits the nail on the head: the worship wars aren’t really about music at all (and never have been at any part of church history), but are about our relationships to tradition and culture as a whole.

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  169. Growing up in pentecostal & modern churches, and moving into the church that my husband and I attend now, I feel like I’ve seen this from both sides.

    On one hand, I don’t want to say that modern praise & worship music is *wrong*, because it is indeed possible to worship through that music. I have and still do on occasion, but I think there is a tendency to equate “great worship” with “this awesome set lineup that had people rockin’ out in the pews”, and to glorify the music leader and the band above Christ, which *is* wrong.

    I attended churches like that as a child and well into my twenties. The sad thing is that our children and young folks are missing out on learning church history and traditions… yes, there was a Church long before the age of Family Life Centers and Hillsong. It’s kind of like eating a candy bar. Candy bars are great, but if they’re your sole source of nutrition, you’re going to have problems. I myself never even heard the Doxology until I was in my mid-twenties. While every Sunday was exhilarating, it also felt a bit shallow.

    My husband and I currently attend a Brethren church that we really enjoy. They have what I consider a true “blend”… a full choir with traditional hymns, handbells, and organ, but they also incorporate accoustic praise & worship as well, all in the same service. It brings all ages together in an easy blend: the younger folk are exposed to traditional church music, the older folk aren’t alienated by the newer songs, and it emphasizes unity & diversity rather than rock-stardom. 🙂

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  170. The modern American church has tied itself so directly to free-market consumerism, it should not be a surprise that this is what you get in the end. We feel compelled to do what works today, what gets us the most bang for the buck, and innovation is the name of the game, lest market forces draw the consumers elsewhere.
    I attended a Christian concert recently, not because I really had any interest, but felt obligated for reasons I won’t get into. I got what I expected. Snide comments from the musician about how those who say modern worship really isn’t their cup of tea really mean they don’t approve, and the requisite anti-Obama comments. Modern worship really ISN’T my cup of tea. I don’t listen to Country, Rock or CCM much, but that obviously, in Christian circles, makes me a loser. I’m a moderate politically, who sometimes leans toward liberal. Again, big time loser.
    You are so right. Our “job” is to love God and love people, but that doesn’t generate much market share or make us look in any way, shape, or form like the next trend setting wave to catch.

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  171. I was bothered less by the decision to change music styles, as I was about the absence of kindness on the part of the church.

    There are any number of really good reasons why a church would discontinue its choir and stop singing the old hymns. (Maybe they have received overwhelming opinions from their members that they prefer a more contemporary style of worship. Maybe interest in the choir was waning. Maybe the choir was just not very good.) But, there really are no really good reasons to be unkind.

    I didn’t want to blame this woman, but part of me did wonder how she presented her position or if she tried to understand and/or reach some kind of compromise, or whether she strongly insisted that the choir be part of the worship, and then she received the advice to possibly go elsewhere. Just wondering. I’m assuming from Chaplain Mike’s rant that this woman was reasonable.

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  172. Two things. There is a church in a rundown section of Middletown, Ohio called The Oaks. Their music is mostly older hymns reimagined for acoustic guitar. Often times the only instruments are guitar and mandolin. The hymns are old John Newton hymns. And–here is the point–this church is filled with high school and college age students. Very few old people like I are there. There is no show, no dancing bears, nothing but the Gospel proclaimed in music, in message, in communion. So why is this church growing?

    Second, the style of music is not as important as what we are singing. Style can mask the words that speak of what God is doing for me, me, me. And that is NOT worship. Well, it is—worship of me. And this life is not about me. It is about the great and gracious and merciful and loving and frightening King of Kings. Any song, no matter the style, that focuses on anything other than the greatness of God is not worship.

    Good rant, Chap.

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  173. Odd that I would read this right now. Just this morning I was trying to teach my 3 and 4 year old a hymn but they only wanted to sing one of the praise songs they learned at church. It made me sad.

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  174. Over the span of my 30 yr. life, I have gone from liking only one genre of music to many. The more I learn to appreciate and enjoy the more I realize that this type of music does not belong inside a service at Church. Sure the history of the Church is bespangled with many adaptations to outside influences such as ancient Jewish, medieval folk, utilization of instruments, choir, and congregational participation in singing, etc. But these forays in music were scrupulously and slowly added and then refined for the Glory of God (eg Bach) NOT TO ENTERTAIN. When I go to corporate worship, I don’t want to be entertained nor do I want the service to be entertaining. If it is entertaining then worship, esp. the musical portion, becomes amusing, ie. without thought. The Sanctuary is where our deepest thoughts and emotions are to be stirred from anger and bitterness to sadness and lamentation to joyfulness and zeal. We come to grasp that which we could not grasp or reckon or deal with on our own in our personal little bubble of “quiet time.” –Psalm 73:16-17 “When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.”– Don’t get me wrong now. I am not against a mighty performance in honor of our King. Look at the way that David brought about worship reformation in Israel. It was multitudinous place filled with the clans of Levi in various rolls as singers and instrumentalists. They were all skilled and proficient as well as hand picked for the task, eg. Asaph. I think that one of the major problems inside of what is termed, “worship wars” is not so much a lack of musical appreciation, generational understanding, or the function of the amygdala in the brain…but a lack of Gaudeology, the study of rejoicing. (yes, I just coined it) When you ask a fellow Christian or Worship Curator about the ways of worship in the Word, more than likely not too many will be aware of what is set out in the books of Leviticus, the methods David employed in Chronicles, and most forlornly of all, an utter lack of knowing the Psalms.

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  175. I forget where this image came from – I think it’s Lewis – but I remember reading a description of the Christian life as a resistance movement in an enemy-occupied country. Though the Church is in the right, she is oppressed, slandered, and persecuted. There’s something fundamentally wrong about that, like the tyranny of a foreign power, or the genocidal disdain for citizens of a conquered land. We’re still holding to the truth and honor of what we believe in, but we have no justice or protection. We’re still fighting for what we love, even though the odds are impossible and it seems as if all we can do is die for it.

    Sometimes I feel like the Poles in Warsaw: I know there’s help out there, I thought it would come in on my side, but it didn’t. (I’m thinking of the recent Supreme Court decision in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church protestors at military funerals.) Why, I wonder, does my side always seem to lose?

    Because “my side” is not in control of the country nor of society – but we’re darn well holding on until relief gets here. Jesus’s resurrection was D-Day. Now we’re just waiting for the Allies to sweep through so that the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands . . .

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  176. cermak, one challenge for some churches is having musicians who can really play the hymns well. Without that, they can come across as dirges. The organist who can play with speed and power is especially rare today.

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  177. This Bach-loving worship leader and composer completely agrees with you, but thinks your odds are overly pessimistic!

    The fun part, as a composer, is to try (and succeed) in writing worship songs that appeal equally to the “old” and “new” crowds. It can be done with a bit of judicious listening, namely by finding and incorporating the good qualities of each genre into the new songs.

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  178. Your writings save me from much, Mike. This one in particular forces me to view my church from the perspective of one of those aged saints, and gives me a lot to think about.

    By the way, your “rant” is polished and persuasive, and deserves the widest reading.

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  179. Good points and I think CM rightly points out that the traditionalist crowd has in many ways sowed the seeds of their own defeat by being too uncompromising themselves years ago. I can fully understand when I walk into a church that uses traditional music and it’s sung and played like a funeral even when the words are joyful.

    My experience nowadays is that traditionalists are often much more open to a range of styles. There is still a preference for a certain approach to music and worship but there is a willingness to embrace Bach, Debussy, old time Southern Gospel, 40s big band-style music, barbershop, chamber music and occasionally, yes, even some guitars or tasteful drums. There is an appreciation for the best, tried and true music from all styles and eras. I honestly believe that’s the feeling of more traditionalists out there than not. On the other hand, with CCM, if it’s older than 5 years, it’s not appropriate any longer.

    BTW, love those gospel tunes you mentioned!

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  180. To Chaplain Mike and all the others who feel like him (as I do myself): Remember II Kings, Chapter 22:

    In the eighteenth year of his reign, King Josiah sent the secretary, Shaphan son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, to the temple of the LORD. He said: “Go up to Hilkiah the high priest and have him . . . supervise the work on the temple. And . . . pay the workers who repair the temple of the LORD— the carpenters, the builders and the masons. Also have them purchase timber and dressed stone to repair the temple.” Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.

    And now, imagine a day years from now when some workman is prowling in the crawlspace or attic of a church and also finds a book — in fact dozens or hundreds of them — similarly stacked away and forgotten. And imagine that workman giving a copy of the book to an earnest pastor who opens it and discovers . . . . some really excellent poetry set to very stirring tunes. And the name of the book shall be ‘hymnal.’ And imagine that pastor “reading from it in the presence of the king.” and then declaring that the hymns shall be sung by all the people.

    It could happen!

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  181. I tried church in the spring of 2010. Based on my music experiences, I thought I wanted the whole rock the congregation style of worship. Sure ‘nuf, they had the band goin’ the volume up loud and I. Like. Loud.

    Funny thing……I didn’t care for it. Not one bit.

    Probably because their Christian Rock (TM) was DERIVATIVE rock — sanitized third-generation copies and imitations of the Rock you knew in your teens. Watered down with saccharin and sucralose instead of straight on the rocks like AC/DC/Van Halen/Aerosmith. You expected Headbanging, you got an Amish Bonnet Romance. “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN (TM)!”

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  182. Amos 5 – Brian version:
    21 “I hate, I despise your concerts;
    your worship centers are a stench to me.
    22 Even though you bring me guitar solos and video clips,
    I will not accept them.
    Though you bring choice fake ferns,
    I will have no regard for them.
    23 Away with the noise of your rock ballads!
    I will not listen to the music of your synthesizers.
    24 But let justice roll on like a river,
    righteousness like a never-failing stream!
    🙂

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  183. Mike, thank you for this important post. It’s greatest value is in helping us see that the issue is not one of style, but definition: What is worship? And what is its purpose in the local church?

    As you note, if worship is seen as an attraction, it is defiled, no matter what the style.

    I was fortunate enough to have served as an associate under a wise senior pastor (who is now a chaplain), and that alone has helped me not to give in to the pressure to craft worship services primarily for their attraction. This last Sunday we had several hymns, and our organist was in her eighties (but still plays a mean tune). We also had some newer songs. No doubt my own biases creep in, but I try to focus not on the style of music as much as which lyrics fit represent a fitting way to honor God (in light of that week’s sermon).

    It’s hard, though. Recently a dear family (former elder) left for a seeker-type church because, “the kids find it more interesting”. And all the churches that are growing around here seem to be very attractional in their worship style (at least from what I hear).

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  184. Pingback: A Rant from a Loser in the Worship Wars | Dr. Platypus

  185. I’ll have to mention, that some traditional hymns are err, umm, rather dirgy. When I attended the Episcopal Church I was distressed by the slow tempo, stilted lyrics, etc. These people may have been persecuted (most of these were from 1600-1800CE), but I saw no reason for them to perpetuate it on future generations.

    On the other hand, I can still enjoy listening to some traditional gospel music (“Down by the Riverside”, “I’ll Fly Away”, “Wade In the Water”…) even though I don’t believe the underlying theology.

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  186. You are not the only loser in this struggle, Chaplain Mike. I’m young but definitely in the “turn the noise down in this sanctuary” crowd. I once thought that rock n roll with christianeze = worship. God has graciously revealed to me that biblical NT worship is something completely different…I am trying in small ways to push back…but in all my circles of relationships, except for the few, I am alone in my convictions/understandings.
    I’m committed to my church but there is a struggle peculating under the surface as the younger crowd (except me) throws its heart and soul into the “renewal and deeper relationship with God via more contemporary worship music” while completely ignoring the older folk who I know have different tastes. Those dear spiritually mature folk sit through the “worship” nicely and don’t raise a fuss, but they’re not engaged…I know it’s not their thing and it never will be and neither should it be. It’s a great burden and I don’t know how to tell my peers to “shut up”, clear the stage and/or as David Clark above suggests – get some real music education besides guitar lessons and “worship conferences” and then come back. I don’t know how to do this in a loving kind way…I really don’t.

    Sorry for the heart pouring out, but it aches…I guess last Sunday’s “worship performance” made it fresh again. We actually do get some variety at church but one young music leader in the rotation has a penchant for the same songs and for beating those songs to death…I’m talking repeating lines 10-15 times…it really gets excruciating at times and then I see our row of old wise women sitting there twiddling their thumbs (literally) and my heart aches…

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  188. Very pessimistic and depressing CM, but unfortunately very similar to my own experiences and I think your conclusion is true.

    A church I’ve been attending has dual services, one “more traditional” and one “less traditional” (i.e. very contemporary). In the summer, there is only one service which is billed as a “blend.” What this means is that anyone from the traditional service isn’t allowed on the platform. Only the drums and guitars and electronic keyboard are used while the very beautiful grand piano and large organ are left to gather dust. It’s a “blend” because the praise songs use some text from hymns once in a while, but otherwise, the music is blaring and people are jumping around in the pews, really rocking. I tried a few of the services and I know some older folks who have as well. Usually, they end up leaving early and more often than not, they (and I) are covering our ears or trying not to get our feet stepped on by “jumpers” in the pews. Many of these older folks have attended the church for decades, back when choirs and handbells and things of that nature were the norm. Now they don’t attend at all in the summer or go try to find other churches for a few months. I discussed this with the music director, suggesting some sort of ways to give everyone a chance to participate and when I mentioned how many folk go to other churches during the summer, his response (a younger guy who probably wasn’t born yet when many of these folk had already been serving this church for 10, 20, 30 years) was that those people were “immature” and probably of doubtful spirituality. What can one do with that sort of uncompromising, unloving and yes, un-Christian attitude?

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  189. Yes, your points about Bach are well taken. Thank you for the historical clarifications, I simply didn’t have the patience to write them all out. Wouldn’t it be something if we could also say of the CCM movement that it is “essentially defining a culture rather than copying it.”

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  190. Lawrence wrote, “the “worship wars” are not being fought at all. The wars we describe are music wars.” Good point, Lawrence.

    I appreciate your “rant,” Chaplain Monk, and I feel sad for this woman that there is no longer a place for her musical talents in her congregation. Perhaps, though, by attending your church, she will find a deeper sense of worship now. So, even though this starts out as seeming sad, God may intend it for good (manipulating a passage of scripture a bit there.)

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  191. Some good points, but regarding Bach, there are a couple things I think are important to recognize when saying that he was churning out “new” stuff in the same way that today’s new music is “new.”

    First is that Bach wasn’t throwing away historical styles and practices—-Bach didn’t introduce the organ into church services and he didn’t stop using the same kind of musical forms that had been used by his predecessors. Undoubtedly, he churned out new compositions constantly but his music and the way it was used in worship was very much evolutionary not revolutionary—he simply did things better….by leaps and bounds….than anyone else before him. He was not out to try just anything that seemed new, introduce it into worship services and see if the shock value generated some interest.

    Second is that Bach’s efforts were essentially defining a culture rather than copying it. Rather than copying an outside secular culture, mimicking some version of it in the church, he was instrumental (no pun intended) in stretching the definition of BOTH sacred and secular culture in the direction of greater expressiveness and beauty.

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  192. I only have time to respond to just a portion of this post, but what I don’t get is the lack of imagination on the part of the leaders who simply can’t see a way to incorporate this woman’s (and others’ gifts and expertise) in the music ministry.

    Some of the most popular contemporary worship music today comes from Hillsong, which incorporates a choir in background vocals on many songs. I happen to think it enhances the music considerably. In many church worship setups the vocals are almost drowned out by the amplified instruments and drums, and a choir restores that missing “presence” and helps to draw out the other worshippers.

    As for the “my way or the highway” approach to decision making, that’s just shameful. There are a lot of red flags in this story …

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  194. I would like to introduce the thought that the “worship wars” are not being fought at all. The wars we describe are music wars. What these real wars have done is completely mask the worship of God and perhaps made it all but absent in churchianity. Let the music wars be what they are. I personally don’t think they will be resolved this side of the Millenial Kingdom. But God definitely has a resolution and a timeline in place for worship.

    But first, what is worship? The Strong’s and Vine’s define it simply as either to bow down (kneel) or prostrate oneself in humble obeisance to our Holy God. We have been commanded to worship in precisely this form since the beginning. A simple word study throughout the God’s Word shows no connection whatsoever with music and worship. Music and praise – yes. Praise and worship – no. Worship and service – yes. And service is not the weekly Sunday meeting. It is the priestly execution of prayer and sacrifice.

    When will God bring this to resolution? He spoke the words, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess” three times. First in Isaiah 45:23. Paul tells us in Romans 14:11 that this time is at the Judgement Seat of Christ. However, in Philippians 2:10, the term is written in the present. Now.

    In other words, as we fight this so-called worship war at the expense of true worship, we perish, just as God promised we would from the beginning.

    I once said that it is nearly impossible to worship God in most churches today because the pews get in the way.

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  195. I’ve got faith that choirs and hymns will rise again, Chap!

    Seriously, though, I think we’re reaping about two generations of really crappy catechesis in the West. This is something I’ve heard from the best voices in Catholicism and Anglicanism, but I’ve noticed that it applies across the board for Western Christianity. Though you’re right that recognizing this sort of thing is a serious minority effort, I think we’re in the early stages of waking up to and turning around this problem from prior generations. This sort of thing is certainly grass-roots, but I think there’s hope. Mostly, I think that has to do with exposing folks to wider, deeper, more ancient expressions one by one.

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  196. From the view point of a prodigal who left church in her early teens when choir, piano and organ were still the norm and found she very much enjoyed “devil music” like, AC/DC, Van Halen, Aerosmith and the likes. I have to say this:

    I tried church in the spring of 2010. Based on my music experiences, I thought I wanted the whole rock the congregation style of worship. Sure ‘nuf, they had the band goin’ the volume up loud and I. Like. Loud.

    Funny thing……I didn’t care for it. Not one bit. And when I started volunteering in the church office, I found they talked alot about numbers and goals and trends and numbers and goals and trends. I wondered, in all my naivety……Where does Jesus fit in?

    At that time, I had been on my journey with Jesus for over 2 years. He had revealed much to me in all His unfailing love, mercy and grace. I continue to be dumbfounded. But, sadly, through it all…..I found church leaving me wanting more. Much more. So……I left. Again. Not to return. And like Eagle, I probably never will.

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  197. I think this is one of those things that is only going to change when the current praise band practitioners join the “turn that music down” crowd. At that point many will probably prefer a more subdued approach to worship, but they will have a dilemma on their hands. How can they refuse the next generation’s desires when they advocated for precisely the same thing before they joined the “turn that music down” crowd? When that happens I think you will see an agreement or at least a detente.

    And, I think the only long term viable solution is to have multiple services with different music. And I think this is distinctly an American problem and this only only solution that will work is an American solution, that is give everyone what they want, i.e. everyone gets their own service.

    The real issue at work in my opinion is an utter lack of music knowledge and appreciation in American culture in general. I say this because in the 18th century there was a guy who produced cutting edge contemporary church music and his name was J. S. Bach. Every single week for seven years straight he turned out a fresh new Lutheran church cantata for the enjoyment of the congregation in Leipzig. Yet, what was fresh and contemporary is now old fuddy duddy Bach. The problem for most Americans is that music reduces to old stuff and new stuff. Old stuff is not seen as relevant, and new stuff is no longer informed by the old stuff.

    The real long term solution is to send all of the CCM bands at every big box EV church to learn music theory, composition, and above all to play Bach and realize why he was so revolutionary. If they all did that, they might produce something that everyone would like, which would then solve the problem once and for all. Of course, the congregation would have to learn a thing or two about music to appreciate it as well, beyond the useless old vs. new mentality.

    Anyone want to put a wager on the odds of that happening? Probably close to zero. Thus we are stuck with the “would you like fries with that” mentality of most CCM worship styles.

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  198. Where is a proper understanding of the church? If the church is God’s family, made up of all different kinds of people, all ages, all generations, all backgrounds, all ethnic groups, all social classes, then why do we insist on this narrow, mission-focused emphasis targeting particular groups and building our ministries around them?

    Wow…first one to take a crack at this post. CM..I have a lot of love and respect for you, posts like this one show why I like to hover around here. Let me tell you what I leanred from my days as a fundegelical. Quite simply many people don’t belong in the church, nor do they belong to God. Cruel…I know, but that’s what I leanred. The worship wars are one area where this plays out at. But it happens in so many other ways….

    1. I have a friend who dealt with homosexuality and the church was less than kind in many ways. His family who consume Focus on the Family material were harsh to him. What he needed was love and help, not judgement and a harsh line.

    2. I myself leanred that I don’t belong in a church. And to be brutally honest with all the anger, rage, and 10 years of challenging and disturbing expereinces I don’t know if I will be a part of a church culture again. Doubts and people who struggle with faith are looked down upon and the system is hostile to them. Its gone beyond a simple faith in Christ to a system where “You have to believe in Jesus + this version of the pre-tribulation rapture..” in order to believe. And as the Senior Pastor at the Fundegelical Church I used to attend on Leesburg Pike said, if you don’t believe in some of this then get out of this church. So I’m out, I learned I don’t belong…and this is part of the reason why I view Christianity as being toxic and like a cancer today. And this cancer is fueled by the likes of the worship wars, mega church super pastors, books becoming the new rage, etc..

    3. I have another friend who is a closet atheist. He plays the Christian game when he visits family and friends becuase he doesn’t want to tip that boat. Last he I heard he was miserable becuase he couldn’t be himself.

    Life is hard and the church is a joke. I’m sorry to say but if the church is what God intended to be his bride (to quote scripture…) then I have to ask…what the $%#@ was God thinking?

    I cringed when I read that story, but sadly that’s how life is. For me I’ve had a lot of fires that fueled and created me to be an agnostic…church experiences were one of them.

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