The IM Saturday Monks Brunch: June 22, 2018 — “A Picture’s Worth 1000 Words” Edition

Naomi entreating Ruth and Orpah to return to the land of Moab. William Blake

The IM Saturday Monks Brunch
“A Picture’s Worth 1000 Words” Edition

Wed. June 20 was World Refugee Day. From Syria, this is Abir, 17, holding Bashaer. She lost six members of her family while trying to reach Lebanon. (Diego Ibarra Sánchez/MeMo)

Immigration Crisis? From the 1980s to the mid-2000s, the government reported annually apprehending around 1 million to 1.6 million foreigners who illegally entered the United States at the southwestern border. In 2000 alone, federal agents apprehended between 71,000 and 220,000 migrants each month. By comparison, monthly border crossings so far this year have ranged from 20,000 to 40,000 people. 

Though this little girl was not actually separated from her parents, she became the face of a raging debate about President Trump’s “no tolerance” immigration policy along the U.S. southern border this week.

Central American immigrant families take refuge at a Catholic Charities “respite center” after being released from ICE custody on June 11, 2018 in McAllen, Texas. (Photo by John Moore/Getty Images)

The. Jacket.

Summer Solstice. About 9,500 people gathered at Stonehenge in Wiltshire, England, to watch the sun rise over the Neolithic stones.

A Colombian fan, dressed as legendary Colombian football goalkeeper Rene Higuita, gestures before the Russia 2018 World Cup Group H football match between Colombia and Japan at the Mordovia Arena in Saransk on June 19, 2018. Mladen Antonov / AFP / Getty

At its outdoor parks concerts last week, the New York Philharmonic performed works by two 11-year-old girls, Camryn Cowan and Jordan Millar — newcomers to the world of composing. They won over the crowds, who gave standing ovations.

Women attend Ramadan worship services at the historic Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo. Nearby Al-Azhar University, the traditional seminary of mainline Sunni theology, and the state-run Ministry of Religious Endowments are promoting women’s participation in preaching, mosque governance and liturgical music. RNS photo by Mohamed Salah

Leonard Hammonds II, right, points out that a Turtle Creek Police officer has his hand on his weapon during a rally protesting the shooting death of Antwon Rose Jr. in East Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on June 20. Steve Mellon / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette via AP

British Flower Week. Picking Dahlias

A sexual abuse allegation made against a top retired U.S. Catholic cleric, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, has been deemed “credible and substantiated” by church authorities, who ordered McCarrick to cease all public activities. (AP)

Employees work on a Porsche 911 sportscar on an assembly line in Stuttgart, Germany. If proposed U.S. tariffs are levied, Germany stands to suffer more in absolute terms than any other nation exporting vehicles to the United States, with losses in the billions of dollars and a meaningful bite taken out of the nation’s gross domestic product. (THOMAS KIENZLE/AFP/Getty Images)

Once in a Blue Dune. Sand dunes often accumulate in the floors of craters. In this region of Lyot Crater, NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) shows a field of classic barchan dunes. (NASA)

Koko, the western lowland gorilla that died in her sleep Tuesday at age 46, was renowned for her emotional depth and ability to communicate in sign language. She became an international celebrity during the course of her life, with a vocabulary of more than 1,000 signs and the ability to understand 2,000 words of spoken English.

Dennis Hof, owner of a strip club and five brothels as well as author of the book The Art of the Pimp, is on track to becoming a state senator in Nevada, thanks in part to support from evangelicals. Hof won the Republican party’s nomination in a seat that is safely GOP.

QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Nature or Nurture?

Now in God’s Care: Charles Krauthammer

Finally, only words will do to say “Rest in peace” to remarkable writer and commenter Charles Krauthammer, who died this week at age 68 of cancer. Here are some excerpts from a tribute by Peter Wehner, a longtime friend of Krauthamer, called “The Example of Charles Krauthammer.”

His thoughts about baseball are enough to make me admire and respect him.

It is a shattering loss. Charles, who received the 1987 Pulitzer Prize for commentary, was not only an elegant writer; he also had a beautiful mind: precise, logical, subtle and blessedly free of cant. He loathed trendiness and the fads that sometimes sweep over the culture.

Like any good columnist, Charles had deep convictions — on the uniqueness and greatness of America, his devotion to democratic pluralism, and his support for Israel and Zionism; on the wonder and joys of physics, chess and baseball, especially his beloved Washington Nationals. (We once exchanged thoughts on an upcoming Super Bowl, but he couldn’t help concluding this way: “Of course, the whole damn game is just a prelude to the beginning of spring training. We must keep things in perspective.”)

…In an age when political commentary is getting shallower and more vituperative, we will especially miss Charles’s style of writing — calm, carefully constructed arguments based on propositions and evidence, tinged with a cutting wit and wry humor but never malice.

There’s another quality of his that we will miss: intellectual independence. Charles started out his political career as a centrist Democrat yet ended up as a conservative and a fixture on Fox News. But he situated himself in a particular school within conservatism, one that is temperamentally moderate, deeply suspicious of ideology, aware of the complexity of human society, and empirical in the sense that he was constantly testing what he was saying against what was actually happening in the world and the effect it had. Charles had no interest in being a member of a political team; his goal was to better understand reality.

Political tribalism is rotting American politics; it needs more people who reject partisan zeal and can speak honestly about their own side’s blind spots and defects. Charles, alert to the maladies of the American right, was a fierce critic of Pat Buchanan in the early 1990s, when Mr. Buchanan was bringing conservative audiences to their feet with a nascent version of the ugliness and divisiveness that has come to characterize the Republican Party under President Trump. This helps explain why it was no surprise that Charles has been a harsh critic of Mr. Trump, who is an anathema to everything Charles prized.

…John F. Kennedy said, “The Greeks defined happiness as the full use of your powers along the lines of excellence.” Charles Krauthammer lived a happy life.

228 thoughts on “The IM Saturday Monks Brunch: June 22, 2018 — “A Picture’s Worth 1000 Words” Edition

  1. “In the true Christian vision of God’s love, the idea of worthiness loses its significance. Revelation of the mercy of God makes the whole problem of worthiness something almost laughable: the discovery that worthiness is of no special consequence (since no one could ever, by himself, be strictly worthy to be loved with such a love) is a true liberation of the spirit. And until this discovery is made, until this liberation has been brought about by the divine mercy, man is imprisoned in hate.”

    — Thomas Merton, New Seeds of Contemplation


  2. Don’t know about you, but when I hear “brown flood”, the first image that comes to mind is diarrhea. The second is the baggage of the first.


  3. Remember Trump Tower Corporate Culture:

    A very Autocratic corporate culture, a One-Man Show with The Great One at the center doing everything in person while everyone around Him gives Him Praise and Adoration. Anyone differs with The Great One and “YOU’RE FIRED!”

    With that type of corporate culture (not uncommon these days), you think anyone on staff would tell her? Or “arrange their minds” to not see it?


  4. Yes, without due process, the only basis we have for confidence that laws are being obeyed is the government’s word: “Trust us.” No, Mr. Trump, I do not trust you, and only a fool would. I repeat: If the government is able without due process to arrest and detain in order to deport undocumented immigrants on American soil, then the right of citizens to due process are not secure. How do you know that someone is in fact an undocumented immigrant without due process? “Trust us.”


  5. Robert, I’ve been concerned about the detention of prisoners in Guantanamo for years now.

    That should be a constitutional problem too, but because it’s not exactly in the US (yet it is) the law gets ignored. The prisoners don’t get a trial, don’t even get charged with a crime, and are simply held because they are “terrorists” that have been captured.

    How do we know they are terrorists? Legally we don’t, because of no charges have been brought against them, and no trial. They’re not US citizens, so it’s believed they’re not entitled to due process.

    The Geneva Convention? Loophole, it’s said. Because these prisoners are not enemy combatants of a foreign country, rather of a terrorist organization, they aren’t entitled to Geneva either.

    How do we know they’re combatants of a terrorist organization? Again, we can’t know that legally without charges and a trial, so around we go.

    Are we a nation of laws, or are we above the law? Stay tuned.


  6. How did this get here? It is indeed a reply to Christiane, but it’s a duplicate of the one WAAAAAAY upthread, concerning the death of Koko the gorilla. Weird.


  7. And if it can happen to you at the border, it can happen to you in Union City, NJ, or Peoria, IL. Once they can arrest and detain anyone without due process, they can do it to you too, wherever you are. Even if for no other reason, due process for undocumented immigrants is necessary so that we all can be guaranteed due process. To arrest and deport you, they should have to prove in a court that you are in fact an undocumented immigrant, and that arrest and deportation are warranted in your case; otherwise, none of us are safe. That’s why judges and courts exist.


  8. If due process is not accorded to undocumented immigrants, it can also be deprived of citizens. Imagine you, an American citizen, are traveling or living near the border, and for some reason, say they think you “look” or are acting suspicious, Border Patrol picks you up and fast tracks you for deportation without you being able to appeal to a court or judge. What would you do? You don’t even get a phone call to a lawyer or family member, you just get incarcerated and then who knows where they send you, dead or alive? Who’s to know? Without due process involved, they don’t even have a paper or computer trail of you. You’re just gone.


  9. Don’t know about the latte part, but this site has obviously been taken over by lefties. But, hey – “Liberals Need Jesus, too!”


  10. Robert F,

    this whole Trump thing is going to blow up in our faces, but ‘how’ and ‘when’ and for goodness sake ‘why’???

    I am furious with the House Republicans for letting T get away with so much.
    It’s like what happened to Paige Patterson in the SBC:
    people kow-towed to him right and left and he did and said more and more unacceptable things until he went too far

    is that what is going to happen with T?

    will he go too far? Of course he will, unless the ‘separation of powers’ thing kicks in and people start doing their jobs with over-sight . . . . T is like a bull in a china shop and he is very impulsive and has no idea how to be responsible or even humane to those he has contempt for . . . . .

    I can only see something dark on the horizon but I don’t know what it is . . . and I’ve got three uniformed military in the family, so I’m worried, you bet


  11. We are in the midst of a growing crisis. Today, our president proposed that undocumented immigrants should be deported without judges, courts, or any due process. If this doesn’t alarm us to the point of recognizing that the normal rules of civilized society in the U.S. do not exist any longer, then we need to wake up. First they came for the undocumented immigrants, and I did nothing (or next to nothing) because I was not an undocumented immigrant, then….

    It’s starting.


  12. @ Chaplain Mike:

    I’ve been a William Blake fan for as long as I can remember.
    Keep his artwork coming!


  13. Steve, if this is true, then WE have infested Central American homelands with monsters that people are fleeing from . . . . . this puts an added layer of involvement in the whole mess, and increases our country’s responsibility to provide real assistance to those fleeing persecution . . .

    I’m interested in learning more about this. Any links you can recommend?


  14. but is it RIGHT to treat people poorly, even if it IS ‘legal’???

    especially, if we SAY we follow Christ????

    come on, folks . . . . . judging and rock-throwing is brutal, contemptuous work, and most certainly does not honor Lord Christ

    I think we know that asking Sarah to leave WAS a reaction to how the baker’s treated some LBGT folks;
    but both incidents are definitely ‘judgemental’ and meant to show rejection for a human person in a way that does not respect them

    The point has been made. Tit for tat. But my goodness, what was accomplished that moved the human race forward ????? Nothing. More contempt.

    So something is legal? doesn’t mean it’s also ‘right’
    I feel badly for Sarah, but also for those LBGT folks at the bakery . . . . they were all deserving of respect just because they are HUMAN PERSONS . . . no other reasons needed, no none


  15. I hope your theory is right. I do have sympathy for her, and I agree it makes sense that she is placing her child’s happiness before her own. ‘That jacket’s message was NOT aimed at sobbing children, no.


  16. There is a degree of positivity in the UK media since the first win, but few pundits here are calling us favourites. That’s partly the result of our underwhelming performances in recent World Cups (we’ve won only six knockout games since 1966), and partly because we don’t have the experienced winners of Germany, Spain, or Brazil.

    But we have a lot of good attacking, fast, dynamic players.


  17. Yeah, that was not right. I don’t care who she is; the restaurant should be ashamed. My cousin, though, did point out that this was like the conservative bakers who didn’t want to bake for a gay wedding. Me, I say provide good customer service to all.


  18. We live in a day and age of extremism. I’m right of center, but to conservatives, I’m far left (anyone who knows me would laugh at that). Today, if you’re not one extreme, you’re automatically the other – that’s extremism thinking for you.

    This reminds me of a post we had on the mainline a while back. These churches will continue to suffer while we’re such extremists, but I think their congregations, in general, will grow again once society calms down and stops this nonsense.


  19. I love SF too, but apparently they’re currently having a real problem with everything Stbndct said. It was on the news recently. CNN maybe?


  20. Why didn’t someone on her staff tell her about the jacket before she left? Surely several people saw it, unless they’re all clueless.


  21. My final thought about the different cultures/ethnicities. As an Evangelical, I believe that God makes it up to His children who have suffered more in their Earthly lifetime. In Heaven, there’s a million God fearing Somalis standing closer to the throne than me.


  22. White supremacist groups kill more Americans than any other group.

    Including September 11, 2001?


  23. Though I basically agree that the restaurant should’ve served them, you have to acknowledge that some of the public rudeness of this rudest of all presidents and his administration is coming back at him and the people that work for him. It had to be expected.


  24. I am an expert on Red Restaurants. I am a valued member of the Red Robin Royalty Club and 3 visits away from free burger.

    Also a member of Red Lobster Fresh Catch Club and I get special insider e mails. I am not aware of the Red Hen but it seems they have laid an indefensible PR egg and there is no sunny side up to it.

    They did not name their restaurant the Blue Hen , they were just too chicken. They must have a lot of far Left Overs on the menu. The Red hen if handled correctly would have people coming far Right Over.

    I have eaten with Kings (Burger) Queens (Dairy ) been to the White House to eat (again burgers), dined internationally at IHOP and had fine Scottish food at McDonald , a fine clan of loveable clowns but rest assured I still am a humble man, I also dine at 7-11 and Race Trac. I put the common in man. I announce my boycott of the Blue Hen due to their politics and prices also on the list is Ruth Chris Steakhouse. I am on a modified hunger strike and will not eat anything from the Blue Hen , this I vow.

    It seems like the Red Hen is turning into the Waffle House with their response but who cares?
    Another sad day with the Red Hen bringing politics into the dining room, stay out of my dining room please.

    I wish half the restaurants I visit would refuse me service, some are so bad we pray after we eat, RIP, Henny Youngman.


  25. But if I had been another patron at the restaurant, I would’ve gotten up and walked out, and found a way to make it known to her that she was the reason I was vacating the premises.


  26. Robert can answer for himself. To me, it is yet another example of how our polarized tribalisms incite rudeness in ***ourselves***. It’s not okay to simply disagree anymore; the other tribe isn’t thought of as different, or uninformed/misinformed – they’ve become evil in each other’s sight. This is a problem for every “camp” nowadays. Sanders and her party should have been allowed to stay, and should have been served politely.



  27. Does she have legal recourse? Is what the restaurant owner did illegal? That I don’t know.


  28. Happy Pride to you, too, StuartB! Congratulations to your gym for hosting the event, and to your community for their generosity. Well done, all!


  29. I have no idea what was in the prenuptual agreement that Melania signed. It may well be that the consequences of her leaving her marriage are dire enough that she has decided that it is best for her, and for Barron, if she stays. She certainly does not seem happy. In fact, the only genuine smile I have seen from her was during the funeral of Barbara Bush, when she was sitting next to Barack Obama. I am certainly in no position to judge her, so she gets the benefit of the doubt from me as well.

    I have no idea why she wore that jacket. Multiple explanations have been offered; none of them make much sense. She wore it onto the plane, but not off–so I assume that, if there was a message to be conveyed, it was to someone in DC, not in Texas.


  30. I am greatly encouraged to live in a time when it is possible to communicate with our closest cousins, the great apes, not because we were bright enough to learn to speak their language, but because they were intelligent enough to learn one of ours. How else would we know Koko, friend of Mr. Rogers and lover of kittens? Thank you, Koko, for teaching us about yourself.


  31. So Robert, you good with the restaurant in V.A. asking Sarah Sanders [ and her party of 7 including her husband ] to leave?

    Make your case Robert. – Not much time left for this thread.


  32. Oh you guys, liars make statistics and statistics make liars. The SPLC is a joke. We can all do internet research . The Texas Dept. of Safety report had the line that is relevant, none of the crimes committed by an illegal immigrant should have happened if our laws were enforced.

    The Center for Immigration Study is a valid organization. Many illegals take the lesser sentence and plea deal to deportation.

    I did read some fake news , this week, the Time mag.


  33. My dad immigrated to the U.S. from Italy in the first third of the twentieth century. He landed on the East Coast, New Jersey, but neither he nor any of his family came through Ellis Island. I’m actually not sure where they landed, but I know it wasn’t Ellis. And I know for a fact that they didn’t have proper papers. Proper papers? What a joke!


  34. True virtue signalling is Counting Coup in the zero-sum game of One-Upmanship, a secularized version of “Holier Than Thou”, “blowing long trumpets before” sub-type.


  35. .

    Ah, I like David Brooks.

    Catchy phrase, for those not impressed with pro sports: “Like myth, sport takes place in a Perilous Realm where special rules apply. Also like myth, sport requires a great suspension of disbelief. The viewer has to pretend that it really matters which group of men puts a ball in a net.”

    Shortly thereafter Brooks writes,

    “There are many virtues to the mythic worldview — to stand heroically for justice, to be loyal to friends and fierce against foes. But history does offer some sobering lessons about societies that relied too heavily on the competitive virtues.

    “They tend to give short shrift to relationships, which depend on the fragile, intimate bonds of vulnerability, trust, compassion and selfless love. They tend to see life as an eternal competition between warring tribes. They tend to see the line between good and evil as running between groups, not, as in parable, down the middle of every human heart.”

    Now would be a good time for HUG to quote Merton.


  36. I am greatly encouraged to live in a time when it is possible to communicate with our closest cousins, the great apes, not because we were bright enough to learn to speak their language, but because they were intelligent enough to learn one of ours. How else would we know Koko, friend of Mr. Rogers and lover of kittens? Thank you, Koko, for teaching us about yourself.


  37. Some twenty years ago when I was buying my present place, my realtor said the same thing — that South Central (the main Los Angeles slum area, including Compton) was changing from black to Hispanic. The reason being that to Hispanics (especially recent immigrants), owning your own house instead of renting was a point of pride as in the Old Country only the very rich owned their own real estate. So there was a cultural push towards home ownership.

    And here in SoCal, Hispanics (the vast majority Mexican and Central American) pretty much have a lock on the blue-collar jobs. In the Southwest, the main ethnic divide has historically been by language: English or Spanish?


  38. Michael Z. so what is the actual statistic number and where is found?, I find it hard to believe.


  39. > than ever came legally though Ellis Island when it was open.

    Eh, Ellis Island is chump change. More immigrants came through the train station in Port Huron Michigan than came through Ellis Island. Little known bit of history. It even had its own bridge to bring the trains in. Those lumber mill and mines in northern Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota were hungry for workers.

    > is there a cap on the number of illegal or legal immigrants you would
    > allow into this country?

    No, but if it makes people happy pick a decently generous number and go with it.

    > You do not believe in the nation state?

    The nation state is a critically important legal fiction. But I don’t see what that has to do with immigration – people migrate towards working systems, providing those systems with more labor and intellectual capacity…. if those systems choose to use them. Otherwise those systems can do what we’ve done – even to populations of our own legal citizens [African Americans] – try to quarantine them in ghettos with inferior schools and infrastructure – and then complain about what a burden they are. That’s bad economic policy – racism and nationalism are worse than Evil – they are Stupid.


  40. Does that statistic include the thousands of African-Americans who were lynched as a result of the domestic white supremacist terrorism of the Jim Crow laws era? It should, if it doesn’t.


  41. All I know is that on our morning and afternoon drive-time radio, if there’s a major crime done by an “illegal immigrant” or homeless, it gets plastered all over the airwaves.


  42. Cities are typically more Blue than rural and many suburban areas [we’ll see if that remains true given current trends].

    Just look at the 2016 election map when broken down by County instead of State.

    All little Blue islands corresponding to major cities isolated in an ocean of Red.


  43. > the data is actually saying WHITE evangelicals

    True, that is usually implies when the E label is used.

    > have heard that evangelical women are beginning to have second thoughts

    I believe such rumors are the whispering of wishful Democrats. Not gonna happen.

    > my guess is that the core support is among white males who say they are evangelicals

    You can’t get to those 75-80% numbers with just them.


  44. England, by almost universal consent among the Telemundo/O Globo commentators I have been exposed to, is supposed to take it all this year, with only Brazil standing in their way. I do not know what they base this on, but the interesting thing is that they called Argentina’s and Messi’s shoddy performance correctly, so I will hear them out.

    An English win would be delightful of course, but I’d really like to see Mexico or Senegal take it.


  45. Again, see above, the strongest support for harsh immegration policies are from eastern inland states.
    I do know out here in “Del Norte” (the southwestern border states) feelings on the issue have been running REAL high for some time.

    Which specific “eastern inland states”? One state in from the East Coast (OH, WV, KY, TN)? Doesn’t that shade into the Midwest and South?


  46. > heinous far leftist out to destroy all that’s good and right

    Yep. And then I have to turn around and explain the dynamics of the housing **market** to “conservatives”. These are crazy times, when a Leftist has to defend the Market. Whacky.


  47. Melania-Jacketgate got covered on yesterday’s morning drive-time radio.

    The consensus was “Not malicious, just totally clueless” and that “this First Family has a long history of being totally tone-deaf”.

    Though months ago I read a snark aside on “while Melania keeps staring at that fifty-carat rock on her ring finger”.


  48. Don’t expect too much from the American media about these things. After all, we still call it “soccer”. 😉


  49. From wikipedia…

    “The Mara Salvatrucha gang originated in Los Angeles, set up in the 1980s by Salvadoran immigrants in the city’s Pico-Union neighborhood who immigrated to the United States after the Central American civil wars of the 1980s.

    Originally, the gang’s main purpose was to protect Salvadoran immigrants from other, more established gangs of Los Angeles, who were predominantly composed of Mexicans and African-Americans.

    Many Mara Salvatrucha gang members from the Los Angeles area have been deported after being arrested… As a result of these deportations, members of MS-13 have recruited more members in their home countries.”


  50. We can’t change the past. We can change the present.

    I beg to differ. Those in power are always trying to control the past by reinterpreting it. Or, if they don’t like an interpretation, they’ll call in “revisionist,” as if that were a bad thing in itself, and discredit it.

    All history, except for the first time it got written down, is revisionist because all history is interpretation. And there is nothing bad about that because we need to put the past into perspective. The key is to do it responsibly.

    The raw data of things past is not history; it’s just data. And perhaps we can’t “change” that, but again, those in power will attempt to falsify the data, to call all else “fake news,” and spend millions on propaganda.

    George Orwell had something to say in 1984. Minds were messed with; a whole generation wasdeceived and if they remembered otherwise they were gaslighted.

    “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”

    Let’s keep an eye on things.


  51. Another word, J.B. was citing Fake News. What a surprise. Thanks to you and Michael Z for doing the footwork on this.


  52. I have found where you got your 21% statistic. It is from an article by the “Center for Immigration studies” an organisation campaigning against immigration with some occasionally unsavoury associates:
    The statistic is wrong, and highly distorting (and given the source, I suspect deliberately so). It refers to 21% of crimes prosecuted in federal courts, a tiny fraction of all cases, and the ones witha high level of involvemnt of non-citizens are disproportionately drug trafficking, people trafficking and money laundering, all of which are cross-border crimes where self-evidentally more people involved will be foreigners. Some other federal prosecutions seem to involve non-citizens slightly disproportionately, too, but given that the federal government deals with cross-border large-scale and organised crime it’s not entirely surprising federal prosecutions are more likely to have an international element.
    The reason for the article using such an unrepresentative sample I suspect is because the actual position is quite the opposite: overall crime rates among immigrants are generally lower:


  53. The actual statistic is that white supremacists have killed more Americans than any other *terrorist* group, not that they are responsible for more homicides in general than any other group.


  54. And how many problems do we export, as we did MS-13? The door does and always will swing both ways, no matter how one might dislike it: we all live on the same planet.


  55. I find San Fran to be a lovely city with good restaurants and a great cultural life for its citizens. I’ve only visited friends there but my impression was of a beautiful and unique city. My friends have a good life there (they are attorneys).


  56. His selectivity may have nothing to do with prejudice. You are overlapping and confusing two different denotations of the word discriminate, and as a result comparing apples with oranges.


  57. But you don’t seem to think that blog administrators should discriminate in their comment moderation, you complain about it so often.


  58. He was prejudiced. So what; aren’t we all? We all discriminate; every day of the year.


  59. I was reared in L.A., I knew Compton very well. If indeed, Hispanic s are moving into Compton supplanting black families, how is that a generalization? I didn’t say anything about them other than – they are apparently squeezing black families out.

    My parents were so rich [ sarc ]that when they retired they relied solely on Dad’s social security income – didn’t know anybody in my extended family that was even semi-wealthy. But I had Godly parents so I actually had it made.

    [ P.S., my wife taught in a barrio school in L.A. where the estimate was 90 percent of the families not born in the U.S.A. ]
    A third of my high school graduating class was Hispanic then I worked in South El Monte for a couple of years.


  60. We (the U.S.) have no problems exporting our problems, we like to do that, but we raise holy hell when the chickens come home to roost. We are living in the era of chickens,-meet-roost


  61. Unfortunately, that pitfall runs alongside of Orthodoxy. It is not “in” Orthodoxy. It does tend to make us laughingstocks, or unable to be believed, or some other negative thing. It happened because when priests and bishops came to serve Orthodox immigrants, most of them had no sense of mission (there were notable exceptions). Orthodox people who are nationalistic aren’t paying attention to the Liturgy and prayers, in the same way that some Evangelicals don’t really know Scripture, you’re right about that similarity.

    It is a thorn in our side.



  62. Not all Evangelicals, not even all white Evangelicals, can be grouped together politically. Historically, the tern “evangelical” has to do with theology and belief, not politics or policies.


  63. True story: some years back a professional musician friend of mine wished to purchase a bassoon from the reputedly best bassoon maker in the world. She said she was headed to Europe to meet with him. I inquired “Why? Can’t you just order it?”

    She said, nope that wasn’t how he worked. You had to travel to see him at his shop for an interview. If he didn’t like you, you would never be able to buy one of his bassoons at any price. So she was traveling to Europe for an interview hoping it would go well and he would see her one of his handmade, world class bassoon.
    [ It did go well and he ultimately sold her a bassoon.]

    The little old bassoon maker was quite discriminatory.


  64. Iain, It should have been 21% non immigration crimes were non citizens.

    You found the report and the quote you cite is correct, read all below it. They are only giving Texas data and state crimes committed else where and federal are not included.

    Thanks for checking it out. Illegal immigrants create education, social, economic and safety issues in every community they become a significant presence. Like all data which side of the issue you stand on sways how you interpret or accept the data and conclusion. If having a big population, lots of uneducated, unskilled labor created economic , social and political success India would be the greatest country in the world.

    We are importing problems and poverty so the rich can get richer and multi national elites can have globalism. It is the establishment wishes that merge with greed.


  65. Sorry, but the picture wasn’t intended to be evidence. Your other scenario makes no sense. Maybe you need a latte.


  66. I’m fine with the owner discriminating against Sarah Sanders for whatever reason he wants.
    I’m big on freedom.
    I think Muslims should be able to discriminate
    Indians too.
    I also think cake makers should be able to discriminate.

    I think the freedom to discriminate should cut across the spectrum.


  67. Good to read a soccer post here!

    And is the view from the States really that England are the team to beat? Our media is almost universally downplaying our chances. We haven’t done well in a major tournament in a long time


  68. “These figures do not attempt to allege that foreign nationals in the country illegally commit more crimes than other groups.”
    Quote from the same Texas Public Safety Department page you got your statistics from.
    Where are you getting your “21% on immigration crimes were non citizens, 2.5 times their share of population” from? (And what does that sentence actually mean, I can’t make head nor tail of it?)


  69. Hello StuartB,

    you can be proud of your community for trying to help homeless young people . . . . God Bless You!

    what a wonderful way to celebrate Pride!


  70. Define crime.

    Next, define the difference between law and grace, Old Covenant vs New Covenant, and Judiasm vs Christianity.


  71. Happy Pride everyone. Just attended an event my gym hosted, Pull for Pride, where weightlifters deadlifted to raise money for homeless youth. Over $35,000 raised. Proud of my gym, proud of my friends, proud of this community.

    I’ll be sure to throw some money in if the offering plate is passed around tomorrow.


  72. And since my first comment seems to be in moderation (and who knows if it’ll get out), I’ll continue.

    Emotion rules both sides of this debate. For the past week, my emotional grief and rage at what the Trump policy was doing to families was driving me almost crazy. I was sick with horror at what my beloved America had become, and I could hardly sleep.

    I prayed fervently about it — not a prayer to blast anyone else off the face of the earth, though I think the Psalms give me some leeway for doing so. (The last verse of Psalm 22 must have given Mr. Trump’s supporters some comfort, btw). But my 12-step stuff won’t let me blast others. So I prayed that the children be saved, and this policy be stopped, and that I myself be kept from bitterness and be shown the way to help them, if there was a way. (I guess this is virtue-signaling. OK, I’m a saint with a gleaming halo– come worship me. 🙂 But it WAS my prayer.)

    The next day the policy was stopped, certainly not as a response to any prayer of mine, but a response to the millions upon millions of prayers and tears and cries of outrage that went up all over this country and this world.

    But I was answered in my prayer to be kept from bitterness as well. I still don’t understand Trump supporters in this matter, and one of them is a very close friend whom I would trust with my life. We don’t talk about it. We never will, I’m sure.

    But I did come to understand that, by golly, the world is simply not the way Heather wants it, and is never going to be. I must work within that framework and not let myself get enraged or brokenhearted about it, because that accomplishes nothing. I must accept the world as it is, and go from there to make it better. And this sappy, puerile, blessed lesson is what most people learn in childhood, but it’s taken me a very long time.


  73. Klasie , I mean this with no disrespect as you are a good spokesman and advocate for your position but you are very much a stereotype of a someone who has liberal views. I am a stereotype of someone who has conservative views. Sometime stereotypes are that because they are grounded in truth. Who is more stereotyped on this site than the dreaded evangelicals?

    I am not making a statement on the value or correctness of your positions just that I do not agree with them which is what our political discourse should be about. I like sensible environmental protections not economic wealth distribution via mandated world wide system. Do not care if you are an atheist except that it does show some of your belief system, just as my being a conservative Christian shapes mine.

    I think you meant war is the last resort not ear but again I may be stereotyping, I had a girl friend once who said I gave good ear which meant I would listen to her. However it does fit in with your statement about dialogue/sanctions. As with all issues , the devil is in the details.

    Free trade, yes if is not what we have not which is free one way with USA a loser. I am the other side stereotype.

    You do not believe in the nation state or what is your definition of nationalism.? Again I am the other stereotype. The Koch Brothers agree with the liberals on no border, free flow of labor and low wages.

    What rational person can be for racism? I voted for Trump therefore I am a racist to many. Talk about a stereotype. Oh, forgot about the dog whistles.

    No one cares what we eat they care what we think and do.

    No one is 100% a stereotype but in the world today it seems we must put someone into a category instead of judging on the issues and value of their opinions.

    I fit the average definition of a conservative and if someone asked me I guess I would self ID that way. However like you there are pivots, turns, nuances , exceptions, life experience bias and cultural background that make you much more and have far more depth than a stereotype and that is evident.

    So thank you for all your good post and your solid observations. We do not agree on many things but that is why I come here. Many of the people present viewpoints I do not agree with but some do it so well I take it into consideration. Also poor Wal Mart shoppers, they are so stereotyped but in my town everyone goes so we are part of the stereotype.


  74. I can speak for one very distinguished difference: Wade Burleson runs a ‘Refuge’ for people who are on the ‘edges’ of society, so to speak, which raises his Church to what they call ‘missional’, but I call it ‘Church as SANCTUARY’. I think his refuge program is a living witness to how a Christian community of faith, even
    in the red state of Oklahoma, can fly in the face of the ‘conservative identity’ of contemptuous rejection of the poor, addicted, and wounded among us. I think any Christian person can identify with what Wade and his Church are doing and find inspiration in how they are helping those ‘outside’ the usual pool from which conservative Christians draw their members. It’s really good to see this happening. It brings hope.

    Maybe it’s time to look at communities of faith individually once more, because a lot of them are showing tremendous signs of tapping into the fruit of the Holy Spirit in how they are opening their doors to them what needs Our Lord the most. 🙂


  75. MS-13 is an American creation in LA during the 1980’s. It moved to Central America due to the deportation of MS-13 gang members.


  76. John, you have made fairly extensive efforts to find out about the Honduran child on Time’s cover. But you have made none whatever to find out, for instance, about the children brought by ICE into NYC at 3 a.m. this week, or about the children brought by ICE in buses with darkened windows to the tent city in Texas this week, or about the children heard in Politico’ surreptitious audio recording, who were crying for their parents who had been placed in prison. And yet the latter children I’ve referred to (and I’ll give you links if you want them, but you don’t) are far more numerous than the single child on Time’s cover, who was crying not just because her mom put her down, but because her mom was surrounded by large uniformed strangers who were frisking her mom, which would make the calmest of children cry.

    Now, I’m not trying to target you personally. You speak for a great number of people, many of whom are my beloved neighbors in this reddest of states (Ohio). What I do want to want to ask them is why they, the Trump supporters, are all over this story of the Time cover. It’s not because they feel sorry for the kid, but because they are absolutely gleeful that she WAS NOT separated from her mom, and therefore they can finally shout FAKE NEWS and be right.

    And I want to supply the answer: EMOTION. It’s why they all love this narrative, because it supports their emotional bias, which leads even an intelligent person like yourself, John, to cling to the idea of a silly wall which costs at least $15 billion, and which I thought Mexico was supposed to pay for anyway, and which would keep no one out as long as shovels and ladders exist.

    And $15 billion could repair so much of our bad roads and bridges, and could make our public school and inner cities the envy of nations, instead of, as they presently are, the pity and contempt of nations. Trump supporters’ emotional attachment to an obviously false narrative of a “brown flood” coming over the border has blinded them to FACTS shown even in a NYT chart shown above, the that “brown flood” has slowed drastically, and to other FACTS that other people on this board have offered.

    Emotion rules both sides. As ATW says, we must check the data.


  77. I guess you must be fine with “evangelical” support a pimp. How about supporting a man who has a history of cheating on his wives over the years?


  78. Saturday evening Sarah Sanders was told she could not eat at the Red Hen restaurant in Virginia because she worked for the President of the United State. She politely left.


  79. Hello Adam,

    you asked ‘what is behind the urge to defend, or hold above the fray, Melania Trump?’

    I see her differently than you do. By her dignity, she has held herself above the ‘fray’ and I think her dignified behavior has offered some stability in all the chaos, which says to me that she may be the strongest person in that family.

    She has been an object of sympathy among women from early on. After the inauguration, the women’s march had a sign that read ‘Melania, blink three times if you want us to save you’. It was not written totally in jest, as something of Donald Trump’s private life was known even then publicly.

    so . . . sympathy with someone who looks dignified, but a bit sad-eyed . . . . I suppose the reclusive do ask for privacy and sometimes this might be interpreted as being because they are wounded, but I WANT to give her the benefit of the doubt because I think she deserves at least that. If I’m wrong, I lose nothing. If I’m right, then she should not be an object of scorn. There is a story behind the wearing of ‘that jacket’ and I think I AM right . . . . . that wasn’t her, from what we have observed of this person, someone ‘else’ was behind it all.


  80. I strongly suggest imonkers look at an opinion piece titled “The Fourth Great Awakening” in today’s NYTimes. Just search on the title in a search engine. It talks about the difference between myth and parable in the context of video game culture, but it has thought provoking evangelical overtones.

    I work with large numbers of young people who are engrossed in video game culture, this article is providing insight to me as well as insight into the evangelical and evangelical/charismatic mindset.


  81. Adam T. Williams, is there a cap on the number of illegal or legal immigrants you would allow into this country? You do not believe in the nation state?

    There are more illegal immigrants in the USA now than ever came legally though Ellis Island when it was open.


  82. And that is the big pitfall in Orthodoxy. Far too often it leads to racism. I have known really nice Orthodox folks falling into it – because their orthodoxy is tied to orthodox nationalities. Thus Serbia’s enemies are their enemies. The old saying, adjusted for context, is not far off:

    Orthodoxy is Hellenism, and Hellinism is Orthodoxy.

    Not that much different from contemporary American evangelicalism, in fact.


  83. A.T. Williams, where did you get that info about white supremacist groups kill more Americans than any other groups?

    Chicago Police Dept 650 killings in Chicago in 2017, 2,785 shootings most in the Southwest part of Chicago, is that where the white supremacist groups go to shoot people, especially on the weekend?


  84. Have you ever been to Compton? My husband used to work near LAX, and I’ve been in the vicinity. It’s not a nice place to live; it (and Inglewood and Gardena and Huntington Park – lovely-sounding names, aren’t they?) has the cheapest housing that can be found, and the people living there are pretty much ignored by everyone.

    “The Hispanics” are most of my VERY working-class neighborhood. They’re as law-abiding – or not – as any of the white folk are. The children of the older couple across the street bought them their home so they could have a reasonably nice place to live in their retirement. As a substitute teacher, I will ALWAYS accept a MESA class assignment; those students are respectful of me and are very focused on doing well in school. All the Seniors have 4-year college acceptance letters in hand.

    My maternal grandparents came from northern Italy, in the days when Italian immigrants were still called “wops’ and “dagos”. Before meeting my father’s parents in Kansas, my olive-skinned mom was quite apprehensive, worried that she would be seen as “too dark”.

    Sen, I wish you wouldn’t generalize, about “Hispanics” or about iMonkers. Most of us here are on a of sliding scale between the poles of “liberal” and “conservative” – and those terms have become pretty much meaningless because they are over-used generalizations. And your family came from somewhere, too, most likely also wishing to escape grinding poverty and/or some kind of oppression.



  85. In other news, I am very pleased by Mexico’s performance in this World Cup, and saddened by the fact that Peru and likely now, South Korea, will not advance. My favorite moment so far has been Nigeria’s 2nd goal against Iceland after Iceland’s tie against Argentina.

    I know Brazil and England are still the teams to beat, but I cannot but rejoice in some of the uexpected triumphs of underdogs like Uruguay, Croatia, and of course, Mexico.

    What a tournament. What a spectacle.


  86. Michael z. , Where did you get your facts to come to your conclusion about illegal immigrants committing less crime than American citizens? Fact form Jan 10, 2018 21% on immigration crimes were non citizens, 2.5 times their share of population.

    Report from Texas, 255,000 criminal aliens have been booked into texas jails between june 2011 andMay 31, 2018,, of which 171,000 are classified as illegal aliens by DHS.

    these 171,000 illegal aliens were charged with 427,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 955 homicide, 48,301 assault , 163,998 burglary , 55,281 drug charges, 627 kidnapping , 26,966 theft, 38,230 obstructing police, 3,272 robbery, 5,137 sex crimes, and +6262 weapon charges.
    These numbers are from the official Texas Public Safety Dept.

    these are only Texas numbers. 14% of federal Bureau Of Prisons inmates are illegal aliens convicted of crimes .

    So without making this a class project where did you get the facts to form your opinion ?


  87. Finn, I believe it’s San Diego’s trolley system. If it were San Francisco, it would have to be a 500-mile-long trolley line 🙂



  88. I think you said it for a lot of us. I’m exactly the same way – a helter-skelter mix between what is supposedly “liberal” and “conservative”… yet my conservative friends insist that I’m a heinous far leftist out to destroy all that’s good and right. And the funny thing is that if I learn more about them – some of them are a mix too!


  89. Some people would call history whataboutism. What about what happened after WW 1, need for NATO. What about South Carolina leaving the Union over slavery , need for Civil War.

    At times you have to do a what about to find out what it is about. The terrible, incompetent GW Bush foreign wars in the Middle East, you have to do a what about Iraq to have a serous discussion of Syria.

    However, I do recall my Mother saying that just because by buddy Joey did it does not make it right or relevant. However there is a time and place where it is appropriate .

    What about 1986 amnesty given without border security and enforcing even of exist laws, that is a good example of what about .


  90. Bad laws should be ignored – which we do all the time, so there is no hypocrisy in that. “Selective enforcement” is everywhere.

    As for those in the country – make them all legal citizens. Cheap, and you get more tax revenue, BAM! Problem solved. And since it really is not a “problem” in the first place…

    But the best policy is to get rid of laws and regulations that cannot be justified. Ignoring rules is a situation created by an ineffective legilslature.


  91. Yep, check the data.

    White supremacist groups kill more Americans than any other group.


  92. Adam, I think the data is actually saying WHITE evangelicals, rather than all evangelicals; and I have heard that evangelical women are beginning to have second thoughts because of recent events. (?)

    my guess is that the core support is among white males who say they are evangelicals . . . but that this ‘core’ base is REALLY ‘evangelical’ in the best sense, I doubt it (I want to doubt it)


  93. So, are you saying you like putting words into people’s mouths? I didn’t say anything of the sort. My point, which should be fairly obvious, is that it isn’t good for news publications to use pictures as evidence for their story when the picture does not actually show what is going on. It would be like Time running a story about young black men killed by police and putting a picture on the cover of some guy who is still alive and has never been shot. Once people find out that the photo is phony it will make the news article less credible whether it is true or not.


  94. Yep, it’s easy for white suburbanites to ignore the plight of blacks – except when they’re spotted on your turf, like in a restaurant trying to enjoy a meal, buy things at the mall, or even try to enter the gated community where they live. Time to call the cops because these neighbors are unfortunately in your eyesight. Driving out works both ways. But et’s all attend First Baptist Dallas tomorrow and sing the Make America Great Again hymn to celebrate that we’re white people and red Christians.


  95. Adam T. W. good point, what should the policy the policy of the USA be for people who enter the country illegally? Is there a number of people who can stay who came illegally or is there no cap ?

    Should a nation enforce its own laws or ignore them?


  96. it’s those crying babies and toddlers that cannot be explained away, no

    that little boy sobbing for his ‘Pa Pa’ is too much for me . . . . and I don’t care what that damned jacket said, Melania couldn’t not feel something for these babies’ pain as she is a mother also

    going after the little children was not the act of a ‘tough’ administration, no . . . this WILL affect the coming election, from what I am hearing in my community, especially among the mothers


  97. The photo I’m speaking of was one that was put on twitter and caused a stir before all the news cycles picked it up.


  98. I think he was a friend to many who did not share his views but still respected his integrity, Wolf Blitzer for one.
    Yes, may he rest in peace, his physical sufferings are over now and he is with God.


  99. Robert F. Of course she is not a Naif she is from Slovenia The Naif’s come from another part of what we use to call Yugoslavia ,


  100. Well, MS13 is a problem, and so are 1000’s of gangs born on American and Canadian soil. But your wording ” MS-13 gangs or Somali immigrants” is really, really telling. You seem to be equating the 2. This is Nazi-style racism if I have ever seen it. Find a criminal element, equate an entire race or nationality to it, and bingo, the masses condone systematic racism, and in the extreme, “Final solutions”.


  101. Seneca, why is is that the more extreme the politcs, the more they live in a world fulled by caricatures?

    I suppose I am liberal – and I don’t like lattes. My coffee is strong, black and fresh. Also I like government healthcare and education. I don’t mind paying taxes, I like environmental protection, and I am a geologist that help find new deposits and analyse their economic potential. I am an immigrant with employees (well subcontractors). I am an atheist. I am a single parent with 2 kids at university and one kid that will start his tertiary education next fall. I am against the death penalty, I think ear is the absolute last resort, and I think dialogue is better than sanctions. I support free trade and orderly, reasonable free movement. I don’t like government subsidies for businesses. I think racism and nationalism are filthy concepts, and I support people in celebrating their culture, language and food. I am for humane treatment of animalsand I like eating meat. I like arugula, and red ale, and scotch, and gin and tonic, and red wine, and tea. I like renewable and nuclear energy. I know the planet is warming faster because of anthropogenic climate change, and I by and large support environmentally assessed oil pipelines.

    So, how many liberal stereotypes do I break?? Can you come to the point where you see such ways of thinking (and yes, many on the far left are just as guilty as you) are in fact, infantile?


  102. Again, see above, the strongest support for harsh immegration policies are from eastern inland states.

    And I live in an urban areas – most immigrants settle in urban areas. My city even gas several resettlement assistance programs.

    Sound border policies, based on data, is not a “Progressive” issue.

    And MS-13??? Really? Grow up.


  103. The old saying of a picture is worth a thousand words has its limits of being valid. With todays tech knowledge and video and photo shopping you have to “fact” check if a picture is real or fake photo as well as fake news.

    The little Honduran girl in the Time cover that was photo shopped for max effect to incite emotions was with her Mother who had just fed her and of course was crying because her Mom put her down.

    The Mother left her husband and 3 other children in Honduras, left without tell her husband . The husband told BBC news his wife paid 6000 dollars to a coyote to get them to the USA, which he did. The Mother, Mrs. Sanchez was previously deported in 2013. She was apprehended with a family member near the border. The Mother and child have never been separated at . Time magazine had originally reported that the child was ripped from the Mothers arms which was just a lie and even they had to retract before using the photo as the cover, they knew the facts but wanted emotion not news reporting, They got it.

    The Mother traveled over a month on a dangerous journey to get her to anchor herself and child so perhaps the rest of the family could come eventually. Her husband has a fairly good job in Honduras but of course would like to come to the USA.

    94 percent of the children who arrive at the border are between 15 and 18 yeas old they say as their is no way to verify for sure.

    The “refugees” being arrested are arrested for crossing illegally not going thought a legal point of entry where refugees are go process. They do this because of the coyotes and they want to evade the system.

    The first step in any sane immigration policy reform would be to build the wall, secure the border. You build the dam , then worry about making things better after the flood has stopped.


  104. Check the data – this group is more consistent in it’s support than anyone else, so yep. No apologies.

    If it bothers you you should drop the label, nobody requires anyone to keep using it.


  105. And how many people here have been killed by Somali immigrants vs. white American citizens?

    Perhaps open borders opponents are focusing on the wrong issue.


  106. Generally speaking, Open Borders advocates do NOT live adjacent to M-13 gangs or Somali immigrants. It’s pretty easy to advocate for some progressive program that has no real affect upon your daily life. It’s like the elite in Nantucket who are all for windpower, but not in their eyesight.

    FYI, I read about this some months back, the Hispanics are driving the black people out of Compton of all places.
    We are in interesting times.


  107. The damage is already done, I think.

    Twenty years ago, evangelicals were known for defending unpopular positions because of our moral values. People didn’t like us for it, but at least they understood that we were trying to act with integrity.

    Now, instead we’re known for abandoning our integrity and moral values in order to defend unpopular positions. And that’s a lot harder to explain or excuse.


  108. My wife is a quality coffee fanatic. Lack of exposure to good coffee isn’t my problem. I just. Don’t. Like it.

    Anyways, I have fine whiskey, rum, and pipe tobacco to console myself with. I am content. 🙂


  109. In the right’s narrative the fact that he missed one child (the one on the Time Magazine cover) is supposed to be accepted as evidence that no such policy was in place.


  110. “””have been forced to wear such a thing”””

    Curious, what is behind the urge to defend, or hold above the fray, Melania Trump?

    She is a living image of Privilege in every sense.

    And she has the stage – she could say anything she wants – an a hundred million people would hear it.

    > It not in HER nature.

    I have no idea what her nature is.

    > I feel very badly for her,

    Nope. She hitcher her car to this train, she stay’s attached.
    She has cash to walk away and still have a grand life-style 99.95% of the world would envy.


  111. The term ‘virtue signaling’ is used by the extreme right, along with several other terms and is a kind of ‘inside’ code speech. It’s a lot like asking fundamentalists to define ‘the gospel’. They get very irritated if they are asked about it. ‘YOU SHOULD KNOW’ is what I was told. When they did give answers, they were all different and varied.

    certain ‘code’ language is for ‘insiders’ only

    if you ‘ask’, be ready for an abusive reply


  112. > And yet the rich liberal blue states keep funneling money, via the federal government,
    > to the welfare dependent conservative blue ones,

    I think you mean “welfare dependent conservative red ones”. The money transfer of the Federal Government is gob-smack amazing; nearly every Red state is a receiver state, and nearly every Blue state is a payer state.

    > rather than the model of the wealthy and getting wealthier proven-successful
    > business models of the blue states.

    Investing in Infrastructure and Education!!!


  113. Eeyore,

    go to a coffee shop that sells beans;
    have them grind up 1/4 lb. of four or five kinds of coffee and put them in separate labeled bags;
    then go home and ‘play’ at making your own favorite combination; vary the kinds of coffee you blend and the strength of the coffee you make in small batches, and only drink it fresh made (this is important)

    add some sugar

    or milk

    or a little real cream

    that you should be deprived of enjoying coffee is NOT RIGHT 🙂
    Give yourself a fighting chance:

    My guess is you haven’t really tried yet to find your own special brew. Good luck in finding something good. 🙂


  114. Correction: And yet the rich liberal blue states keep funneling money, via the federal government, to the welfare dependent conservative red ones….


  115. Edit the url to add a ‘random’ query string; like /comment-page-1?fghgqawr7843432

    This makes things show up most of the time; indicating there is a delinkage between the content management layer and the caching/performance layer.


  116. And yet the rich liberal blue states keep funneling money, via the federal government, to the welfare dependent conservative blue ones, trying to help them, to no avail, get to a position where they’ve made their millions and can afford to champion other poor people too. What an irony, that the supposedly federal government and socialism averse red states depend for their survival on the federal government to redistribute the blue states’ wealth! But the reason it doesn’t seem to help is that those red states keep pissing away the redistributed resources by putting people and policies in place that follow the model of our failed businessman president, rather than the model of the wealthy and getting wealthier proven-successful business models of the blue states.


  117. > but I hope the innocent are spared.

    The innocent are never spared, they are more often the low hanging fruit.


  118. Indeed, Koko helped many people take a huge step forward in thinking about intelligence in animals.


  119. Honestly, what speech is not virtue signaling?

    Overt virtue signaling is obnoxious, but the meme is seriously overplayed.


  120. San Francisco is a perfect example of the liberal capitalism at work. You can’t afford to live there due to the high prices. There is literally crap and pee all over the streets with a ton of hypo needles. People are accosted on the streets and the situation is getting worse. Homelessness is out of control and getting worse. But at least the city council voted for a ban of selling goldfish in stores. I know all this because I was raised there and still have family there.


  121. dennis hof?

    oh boy, is the wolf in the fold now . . . . what I want to know is how this looks to young teenage and preteen evangelical children . . . . at SOME point, the deal with the devil will come due and I hope it doesn’t fall on the children

    maybe it’s the young who can help turn around the parents?
    like the young people from Stoneman-Douglas High School in FL ?

    I can’t help thinking that this ‘deal’ will have terrible consequences in the end, but I hope the innocent are spared.


  122. The policy of separating children from their parents as a “deterrent” to make parents afraid to try to immigrate to the US is a new thing that the Trump administration came up with. The Obama administration did maintain housing facilities for *unaccompanied* minors, i.e. those who came to the US alone, without their parents. And yes, the conditions in those facilities were pretty bad, as was rather widely reported in the media at the time. But that’s very different from taking kids away from their parents as a punitive measure to hurt and intimidate them.


  123. So, are you saying that Trump did not order children to separated from their parents and placed in detention centers? Isn’t that the point of the Time Magazine cover?


  124. For the record, the photo of a child in a cage was actually taken two weeks ago, not during the Obama administration. But, it’s a picture of a toddler at a protest against the Trump administration’s treatment of immigrant children, not a toddler at one of the actual camps where they’re being imprisoned.


  125. Having respect for an honorable person with whom you disagree is a virtue. Is that virtue signaling?


  126. To be fair, much of Christianity in America has done little to distinguish itself from conservatism.


  127. My attitude would be, shit, this Kosovar has gone and gotten himself in a royal pickle, the stupid S.O.B. I’ll have to do the right thing regardless of how I feel. I hope he doesn’t feel that he can be my racketball partner now.

    If I were on the receiving end of the Kosovar’s charity, that would have to be seen how I would react.


  128. When a person has multiple overlapping identities (e.g. as a Christian and as a cultural conservative) and those identities are pushing them in opposite directions (Christianity’s teachings against immorality, vs. conservatism’s tolerance of exploitation of women) that’s when you find out which of those two identities is at the core of who that person is.

    I think we’re discovering that there are many people in this country who have chosen to identify as Christian because their brand of Christianity bolsters and rationalizes their core identity as a conservative, rather than the other way around.


  129. Actually, liking the smell of coffee but hating the taste is not uncommon – it apparently has to do with the differences in the molecules released in brewing vs those that remain in the liquid.


  130. Eeyore – see your doctor – yesterday. There’s something wrong with you son! smile


  131. There is evidence that taking the children away from their parents was being planned early in the T administration.

    IF Obama did such a thing, Michelle would have killed him.

    In all honestly, I look at Melania’s jacket and I think she may have been forced to wear such a thing. I can’t see her as having any lack of empathy towards children and their parents. It not in HER nature. I feel very badly for her, as do many people. She is trying to behave with dignity and to be a good mother to Barron in spite of everything. I hope she is treated kindly, but that jacket tells me that she was forcefully manipulated. So sad.


  132. The mysterious “new comment delay syndrome” is still at work. After I make a new comment, in order to see it I often have to…

    1) close the browser window with IMonk in it.
    2) reopen a new browser window and go to Imonk.
    3) refresh the IMonk page.
    4) click on the Comments link for the post.
    5) refresh the post page AFTER it loads up.

    Can someone fix this, please? :-/


  133. Senecagriggs,

    my father would drink day-old coffee black . . . he didn’t want to waste it

    We have an old four-cup coffee maker that is partly plugged up where the holes let the water come through to the pot, and the steam builds up because the flow is impaired and the result is magical! Best coffee we’ve ever had. Almost like espresso! Tremendous flavor. I hope that old pot keeps working ’cause I can’t imagine a better brew.


  134. You are right. It’s also why it’s easy to be a champion of the poor when you have already made your millions.


  135. > BTW, what are your neighbors?

    These days new neighbors are either college students massing at a house in order to afford living here, or economic refugees from the economic catastrophe that is the northern 2/3rd of the state [we have more jobs than people, so we have the “good” kind of problems].

    It’s a mixed bag in terms of neighborliness.

    Northern Whites can be a rough and crude bunch – they scream a lot, sometimes I wonder if they can converse in normal tones. And they are really bad as dog care-takers. Upside is they share some of my more libertarian leanings: sure, whatever, it is your property, do what you want.

    I tend to find college students, while occasionally rowdy in the wee hours, to otherwise make pretty good neighbors. I even kinda enjoy when they all deboard the night’s last bus from downtown singing drunken show tunes as they stagger home [I am ~175 feet from the neighborhood’s stop].


  136. The caption for the picture of the Al-Azhar mosque seemed familiar. Basically, they’re moving toward a situation with
    • women preaching
    • women as board members
    • women leading worship.
    Sounds like every Evangelical church I know right now.


  137. I may have come across harsh, but consider this… what might Jesus have said if, at the end of the parable of the Good Samaritan, the pharisee had said, “But I don’t like Samaritans!”


  138. Amen.

    a story: I brought in library books and placed them up on the chalkboard of my classroom for the children to read if they finished their work. I changed them out every month with new ones, but the children always wanted ‘Koko’s Kitten’ brought back in. That was THE favorite of all time. 🙂

    One day, after dismissing class, I noticed the book was gone. So I drew a cartoon of Koko crying, and wrote that ‘Koko’s Kitten is missing. Please help find it.’ on the board. At the end of the morning, one of my dear ones came to me with the book. ‘Mrs. S, I found Koko resting against my locker.’ I thanked him.

    Yes, RIP beloved Koko. You had more friends and touched more hearts than you knew.

    “9 Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this?
    10The life of every living thing is in His hand, as well as the breath of all mankind.” (from Job. chapter 12)


  139. An unusual mix of white government retirees, immigrant families, and young millennial couples. We live in a co-op condo complex in Virginia near Babylon-On-The-Potomac. We actually interact quite often, as the Post Office and UPS routinely misdeliver packages and we have to get them to their rightful owners.


  140. > And I’m tired past weariness of the right’s whataboutism


    Can we talk about What-To-Do-Now [aka Policy], PLEASE?

    If someone wants to roll up posters of Obama and use them as urine tubes, I so do not care, have a blast. As long as we can talk about Policy, based on Data, while they do it.


  141. My neighbors are Kosovars, gay white Americans, African-Americans, African Americans, African Americans, and Hmong.

    I like the Kosovars the least. They are up at all hours moving things in and out of their garage and never, ever respond to any of my overtures.

    Thank you for telling me that my preferences are irrelevant. I have suspected that for some time. BTW, what are your neighbors?


  142. > just because they think he is honest?

    Prejudiced people, and Racists, will vote for the guy who honestly professes the same sentiments.

    Honestly is only a virtue in otherwise kind and decent people; vulgarity and cruelty can be Honest.

    America as a nation is a vulgar and cruel place, it always has been.


  143. > How is that the liberal blue states are better at the capitalist game
    > than the conservative red ones in almost every category?

    Investment in Infrastructure and Education.

    Rocket Science, it ain’t, but making some Rocket Scientists does help.


  144. > It’s funny that liberals beat conservatives at what is supposedly their own game,



  145. “We can’t change the past. We can change the present.”

    Exactly to the point. I wish all the deflectors would just stop with the whataboutism evasions.


  146. > your dislikes are irrelevant. Learn to love your neighbors.

    Ever spent time as a neighborhood organizer or engaging in urban politics? 🙂

    Leading with a carrot is the only way forward.

    The issue of Regulatory Capture dominates the politics of municipal America.


  147. > Yeah, I probably would, but nobody ever frames the argument like that.

    Exactly! I frame it that way! A lonely voice crying out in the wilderness. 🙂

    Actually, I am not all that alone. But boy howdy, fighting for air-time against The Twitter is an overwhelming task.

    On the upside, in private-ish conversation, most regional PTB’s hear and understand the Opportunity Cost argument, and they understand that we cannot reorient our national policy by Single-Issue discussion. So, there are splinter of lights through the cracks, but our media structures shade them very effectively.

    When you frame it this way, as I experienced at a meeting for our governors infrastructure plan, you will find you can get the deep urban, suburban, exurban, and rural tables on the same page VERY quickly. There is a coalition out there waiting to happen.

    America has a LOT of legacy capacity that needs to be connected to the 21st century in order to have a fighting chance of a Come-Back. Why not do that?


  148. I can’t tell if you’re serious or not, but if you are, this is my reply
    If they can afford to move next to you and obey the laws, your dislikes are irrelevant. Learn to love your neighbors.


  149. And I’m tired past weariness of the right’s whataboutism. I did not vote for Obama, but even if I had, Obama’s mistakes and sins should not still be used by the right to excuse the far worse mistakes and sins of the current occupant. Nothing, nothing compares in our recent history compares with this monstrosity.


  150. The false narrative that Obama did exactly the same thing persists, even though it has been debunked many times. What Obama did wasn’t great, but it also wasn’t anything near what the Trump people have done. Not even close.


  151. Okay, so this comment had gone missing for a while, and I made another one similar to it, thinking the first one was lost forever. Please excuse the unintentional redundancy.


  152. To your first question… I don’t think they’ve reached the lowest place yet… voting for someone is really the top of the rung and I personally know sincere, Bible-toting, church people who want to go beyond voting… full-on fascist totalitarianism, and participating in it, would be a joy for them (drenched in christianize of course and “carrying out God’s will”) (disclaimer – I am a pessimist, so my hunch is probably skewed)


  153. Also, liberals tend to be more affluent than conservatives, by a wide margin, so they can afford the lattes. It’s funny that liberals beat conservatives at what is supposedly their own game, capitalism, almost every time they play, and the same is true about liberal blue versus conservative red states. Maybe part of the explanation for that overlaps with the answer to the question of why so many conservatives consider our president a good businessman even though he went bankrupt five times.

    But I drink my non-latte coffee black and unsweetened, because, though liberal, I’m not affluent. If only I could afford those lattes!


  154. “On the other hand limiting people at borders serves no demonstrable purpose.”

    Could you please elucidate. It keeps Kosovars from moving in next door to me. I don’t like Kosovars, even Kosovar children. I haven’t met one yet that I like. I want people to move in next door to me that I don’t have to expend mental CPU cycles in figuring out why they do what they do.

    Would I put up with Kosovars living next door to me if it meant that there would be a private/public consortium created to build new easy-access transportation hubs around the perimeter? Yeah, I probably would, but nobody ever frames the argument like that.


  155. > Where was the outrage on the left against such practices?

    The Left during Obama’s time was heavily invested in nonsense like Occupy Wallstreet, and winging about international banks and policy. It was the heady days of the Venture Capitalists. Trump’s election shattered the long – boring and ineffective – hegemonic hold on the American Left by neo-quasi-Marxist kooks. Now it is an invigorated but headless swirly mass in search of any kind of direction.


  156. Exactly. You have to give him credit for standing as a conservative against the Trump mania, which was one of the ways he exhibited that he preferred to engage with reality.


  157. > Lately, I tend to rely more on local and international news sources than the major US outlets.


    The major US news outlets are a dumpster fire – far more due to incompetence than bias.


  158. One does wonder, though, what the reaction of the Obama administration would have been had it been made public then. I suspect the policy would have been reversed much more rapdly.

    And yes, in point of fact, America has historically always been inconsistent in its treatment of immigrants. That cannot be disputed. But we are here, now, facing a particularly loathsome example of it, and an administration that seems determined to obfuscate and condone the policy. We can’t change the past. We can change the present.


  159. Those liberal latte drinkers are also more affluent, that’s why they can afford the lattes. Did you know, Seneca, that liberals as a group are far more affluent than conservatives? How is it that liberals beat conservatives at their own game, capitalism, almost every time they play? How is that the liberal blue states are better at the capitalist game than the conservative red ones in almost every category? Maybe the answer to those questions overlaps with the answer to the question concerning how it is that so many conservatives consider the president a good businessman even though he has bankrupted five times.

    For my part, I’m not a latte drinker, nor an affluent liberal, just a liberal who drinks his coffee black and unsweetened. If only I could afford those lattes!


  160. Not terribly surprising. Fancy coffee is, in the US, largely an urban phenomenon. Cities in turn trend liberal.


  161. He also was not in the habit of whole-cloth fabrication. Disagreement on policies is one thing, denial of facts is another.

    These days engaging with REALITY is notable.


  162. > It isn’t because Mexico or Central America have suddenly become safer,
    > more equitable places to work and raise a family.

    That is most certainly true of Mexico which has seen very significant foreign investment.

    Mexico is a large country, it has hellish parts, and parts which are well within the range of normally safe.

    Mexico has Monterrey which is one of the ~5 wealthiest cities IN THE WORLD, having a very diverse economy, everything from steel and cement to beer.


  163. Whatever his views on immigration, he’s dead, and it doesn’t hurt to pay the dead a modicum of respect.


  164. > The old stereotype of the latte-sipping liberal could have some basis in reality.

    Assuming Liberal = Democrat (Blue), of course they do.

    Cities are typically more Blue than rural and many suburban areas [we’ll see if that remains true given current trends].

    People in cities have more access to coffee shops.

    It is kinda the point of living in a city, the trade off of space for amenities. How you “feel” about such a trade-off, and the environment you are accustomed to, certainly impacts one’s political perspective. The feed-back loop of “Built Environment” and human behavior is an active field of study – something as “trivial” as the proportions of buildings on a street impact how safe people **feel**.

    Many correlations are also entirely natural: I would wager confidently that people who live nearer to a movie theater go to see more movies than people far away from a movie theater. Some of these correlations are kinda: “well, duh!”, when you think about them a bit.


  165. Interesting that there should be so much love for Mr Krauthammer here, considering that his views on immigration included an enforcement-first opinion that we should secure our borders before resolving the issue of the current 11-13 million un-normalized residents already present.

    I think this is what Pres Trump and his advisers are trying to do. That it has resulted in a public-relations nightmare doesn’t surprise me. This president is an ongoing public-relations nightmare. Shortly after his election I read in a column on Huff Post or Nation or some other kindred-spirit media outlet that the only MORAL action President Trump could POSSIBLY take would be to resign in favor of Michael Pence. Then Michael Pence should appoint Hillary Clinton as VP according to the 25th Amendment and resign immediately thereafter, and justice would be served.


    Back to the borders. That asylum seekers should show up at the border with their families should have taken nobody by surprise, but thirty years of malicious and purposeful neglect on immigration issues since the Reagan amnesty in 1986 resulted in a system which was not equipped to enforce current Federal law in a humane manner. Pres. Trump wants to enforce the law. His base wants him to enforce the law.

    Immigration is down, yes, but I wonder why. It isn’t because Mexico or Central America have suddenly become safer, more equitable places to work and raise a family. Maybe the hell at the border has something to do with it.


  166. I would hope that all can agree that taking children away from their parents is absolutely horrible. But what I do find interesting is that Obama did exactly the same thing. Where was the outrage on the left against such practices? And it appears that many more were detained during that time period than now. I think the indignation is politically motivated when it should really be compassion based.


  167. Media (of all sorts) are a huge part of the problem. I never, ever EVER rely on only one outlet of news, or any one viewpoint. I still read National Review (as grating an exercise as that can be at times) for that exact reason. Lately, I tend to rely more on local and international news sources than the major US outlets. Getting the view from the ground and from outside our US bubble is quite helpful.


  168. > What has happened to “evangelicals”?

    Nothing has changed about Evangelicals.

    They have been set free to display their Racism publicly.

    In hind sight, it was always a principal Political movement.


  169. Yes, I am. Of course there are technicalities even in “Open”.

    I have no issue with checkpoints-and-papers. And new technology like facial recognition scanners should be able to expedite those processes.

    On the other hand limiting people at borders serves no demonstrable purpose. Immigration is an economic positive, immigration has no positive correlation to crime [and data suggest, within the margin of error, that there may be a minor NEGATIVE correlation].

    So, why? On that score I am deeply Conservative – every rule/law/regulation should have a compelling justification. Wether is federal policy or local land use regulation [Zoning] the question that should always DEMAND an answer is: What substantive problem is this addressing? Show me the data. Does this rule/law/regulation effectively address the issue? Does it address the issue in a manner having the fewest side-effects [including enforcement costs]?

    Our border and immigration policies are a HARD FAIL on all those criteria. And Mr. Trump’s changes move us in the direction of HARDER FAIL. The costs of his proposals – I do not have any need to even discuss the Morality of his proposals – are WILDLY disproportionate to the demonstrable issue. The opportunity cost of $20B for a wall is ludicrous – you could put out-of-work Midwest industrial workers on the task of rebuilding the nations bridge and rail infrastructure for that kind of coin; we are desperately short of inland ports, which severely constrains the revitalization of our legacy industrial capacity; and aren’t those “Trump’s people”? That is an investment that would have an tremendous long-term ROI. And it would likely have bipartisan support.

    Note: Perfection should never be permitted to be a goal, all forms of regulations have side-effects and costs – so does doing nothing. All regulation will have loop-holes and gaps. Adults accept this and move on. You may accuse many a Progressive of being Juvenile, I do, and the same applies to many a “Conservative” [albeit many these days within that label do not qualify for it]. It is best to ignore those people and move on with an adult conversation – if we cede the floor to Juveniles nobody wins.


  170. The Time magazine cover is another good example of why many people don’t trust the news media. This is not the first false picture that has been used during this controversy. In fact one of the first ones was of a child in a cage, showing the terror of the Trump presidency, except the picture was actually taken during the Obama presidency. Even if your story is true and your points are right, if you use phony pictures, you will lose credibility.


  171. Thoughts on the Hoff election:
    1. How low on the morality scale are some people willing to go in voting for someone just because they think he is honest?
    2. Will current politicians ever stop to reflect on how they have done such a poor job that people are now willing to replace them with pimps?


  172. At this point, regaining/maintaining cultural and political power is the ONLY thing that matters. And any means, apparently, are justified by that end.


  173. I can’t stand the taste of coffee. Period. I can’t even eat coffee ice cream, the taste is so offputting for me. So lattes are right out. 😛


  174. Are I-monks Latte Liberals?

    The old stereotype of the latte-sipping liberal could have some basis in reality. It turns out liberals really do drink more lattes.

    Researchers from the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania surveyed 1,500 Americans about their coffee preferences, political ideology, household income and attitudes toward globalization and found that liberals drink more lattes.

    A majority of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum preferred regular brewed coffee to lattes, but those who do drink lattes were more likely to be liberal, the study found. “Our results led to a fundamental reinterpretation of what it means to be a ‘latte liberal,’” the researchers found.

    JUST ASKING – I drink coffee black – have been known to simply “nuke” 3 day old coffee to meet my fix.


  175. They also have suprisingly high production values, although they do still cast more than a few terrible low-rent actors; often it is ~45 seconds and: nope, she/he is unwatchable.


  176. Two bait quotes in a row? This is a stretch even for you. 😉 You must *really* want a fight this morning…


  177. This is typical of the very selective reporting by news media, your quote needs the context of the speech where he also said: “Our dream, which we’ll achieve regardless of whether Trump accepts or not, is that the Mexican can work and be happy where he was born”.

    Mr. Obrador’s idea, which he has pitched for some time, is the creation of economic renaissance zones along the border as tool to both stem the [FACT: currently very low] rate of immigration by creating economic possibility. The last few years have seen investment in port capacity at the border as well as the first direct [no-stop] freight rail link between Mexico and the United States. The idea of a renaissance zone defended from Mexico’s labyrinthine bureaucracy and unfathomable tax system is, on paper, a credible idea.

    As the Right’s attempt to spin “we will defend all the migrants” as something ominous or hostile: the view that Immigration is a Human Right is hardly a fringe view, once you are outside hard/alt-Right circles. You would not have much difficulty finding Traditional Conservatives who hold such a view. Obviously, **ALL** Human Rights should be defended – that is why we have international tribunals.

    Aside: It is interesting WHERE anti-immigration sentiments are the strongest, it is **NOT** at border states. San Fransisco’s trolley system extends to San Ysidro where there is a pedestrian crossing into Mexico. The City of Elpaso is working on extending their street car system over the border into Mexico – as the city itself was divided when the border was drawn.


  178. FYI

    Report: Netflix Bans Employees from Looking at Each Other for More Than Five Seconds


  179. “I believe that the pursuit of truth and right ideas through honest debate and rigorous argument is a noble undertaking. I am grateful to have played a small role in the conversations that have helped guide this extraordinary nation’s destiny.

    I leave this life with no regrets. It was a wonderful life — full and complete with the great loves and great endeavors that make it worth living. I am sad to leave, but I leave with the knowledge that I lived the life that I intended.”

    From his last column.


  180. Speaking of immigration:

    Mexican presidential candidate Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO) called for mass immigration to the United States during a speech Thursday, declaring it a “human right” for all North Americans. “And soon, very soon — after the victory of our movement — we will defend all the migrants in the American continent and all the migrants in the world,” Obrador said, adding that immigrants “must leave their towns and find a life in the United States.”


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