We still buy the line that the hard core of the Christian right is just an interest group working to protect its values. But what we don’t get is that Mr. Trump’s supposedly anti-Christian attributes and anti-democratic attributes are a vital part of his attraction.
• Katherine Stewart, Why Trump Reigns as King Cyrus
• • •
This is one of the big reasons why I am a post-evangelical.
This is why I’ve never trusted pentecostal/charismatic/third wave/new apostolic reformation “Christianity,” or, in fact, think it actually represents authentic Christ-following faith at all.
This is why I am afraid of, and resist passionately, the influence certain so-called “evangelicals” are having in the halls of power these days.
This is craziness, plain and simple.
Katherine Stewart’s article “Why Trump Reigns as King Cyrus” is one of the latest pieces to examine the incredible spiritualizing certain evangelicals are doing these days to justify and celebrate the presidency of Donald Trump and promote a resurgence of Christian nationalism.
Stewart begins by referring to the recent film “The Trump Prophecy,” which was shown in over 1,200 theaters in October. The film is based on a book — The Trump Prophecies: The Astonishing True Story of the Man Who Saw Tomorrow…and What He Says Is Coming Next — by Mark Taylor and Mary Colbert. It’s the memoir of a fireman with PTSD and severe health problems who got better through the help of a Christian natural health doctor and his wife. In the process Taylor received and then, with Colbert’s help, disseminated a prophecy from God himself about how Donald Trump would become the president of the United States.
The film shows how Taylor, in a dramatic epiphany, turns to Isaiah 45 and makes the link between King Cyrus and Trump. This has become an evangelical talking point for some.
As Stewart notes:
The identification of the 45th president with an ancient Middle Eastern potentate isn’t a fringe thing. “The Trump Prophecy” was produced with the help of professors and students at Liberty University, whose president, Jerry Falwell Jr., has been instrumental in rallying evangelical support for Mr. Trump. Jeanine Pirro of Fox News has picked up on the meme, as has Ron Dermer, the Israeli ambassador to the United States, among many others.
Some, like Wheaton College professor Daniel Block, have tried to address the Cyrus/Trump link with some measure of seriousness. But those who are promoting this comparison through such tripe as The Trump Prophecy do not deserve this kind of dignified response.
I downloaded a copy of the Kindle edition of Taylor and Colbert’s book and found it filled with page after of page of spiritual mumbo-jumbo, illogic, over-the-top melodrama, the loosest coincidences being interpreted as divine intervention, conspiratorial thinking, and uses of the Bible that are wildly idiosyncratic and entirely subjective.
Here is a particularly laughable example:
One night when I was feeling particularly down, I dreamed that the Holy Spirit placed His hands on the back of my shoulders in a gentle and comforting massage. Butterflies were fluttering all about the room, which I discovered later was a sign of transformation. The Spirit’s voice whispered in my ear two words I had never heard: “Shakina Kami.” I took this information to my interpreter friend; he told me they were names, and then gave me a resource to look up their meaning. “Shakina” as a name is African in origin, and it translates “Beautiful One.” “Kami” is an Indian name, and it translates “Whose Desires Are Fulfilled.” Additionally, both of these names, once traced back to some of their etymological roots, point to some renderings in Hebrew and Japanese that ring true to my spirit to this day. Shechinah in Hebrew means “settling” or “dwelling,” and it was most commonly used in reference to the dwelling of the divine presence of the Lord in one’s home or life. Kami is Japanese for “God” or “Lord,” and was therefore used by Japanese converts to Christianity and Protestant missionaries circa 1600 to refer to Christ—and, by extension, to the provision of the Lord of Hosts over one’s life. It is also a derivative of the Japanese compound word kamikaze, the “divine wind of God” or the “divine wind of God’s providence” (kami, “God”; kazi, “divine wind”; used in this manner for ages before it became known as the “suicide flyer” of World War II).
I was floored when I realized that the Creator of the universe had renamed me as He had the patriarchs in the Old Testament, but I was even more amazed when I began to digest the translation of the new name. In the simple “Shakina Kami” sound the Holy Spirit uttered was the following: “Beautiful One Whose Desires Are Fulfilled, and in Whose Life the Lord Dwells with the Divine Wind of Providence.” Not only was He calling me beautiful, despite all my recent trudging through the mud of despair and depravity, but He was also telling me that the desires of my heart were His, and that they would be fulfilled through the direction of His all-knowing and divine wind.
Add this to the butterflies that sweetly and gently dipped here and there all over the room during that dream, and the meaning is clear: I was no longer the man I was…I was being transformed into this new identity. I was no longer simply Mark Taylor…
I was Shakina Kami.
• The Trump Prophecies, ch. 3
This is the guy to whom God communicated the destiny of the United States?
Why, of course! It’s the old “God uses the foolish to shame the wise” meme writ large.
But there is another, more important theme involved in this ridiculous story that Katherine Stewart puts her finger on in her article:
The Trump Prophecy is being promoted by “biblical” evangelicals who are ultimately looking for a king and a theocracy.
As much as they might give lip service to American democratic ideals, this form of evangelical religion is actually teaching that God (still) works through the divine right of kings.
Today’s Christian nationalists talk a good game about respecting the Constitution and America’s founders, but at bottom they sound as if they prefer autocrats to democrats. In fact, what they really want is a king. “It is God that raises up a king,” according to Paula White, a prosperity gospel preacher who has advised Mr. Trump.
In this model, resisting Donald Trump is tantamount to resisting the God who anointed him.
As Stewart says, it is not simply that these Christian supporters of Trump have a transactional relationship with him wherein they hold their noses with regard to his utter lack of moral and ethical leadership as long as he promotes elements of their agenda. No, these particular evangelicals simply don’t care about any perceived or actual negative aspects of Donald Trump’s character, experience, words, or actions.
In fact, the less connected he is to any conventional leader and the messiness of the democratic process the better. Our president needs to be a man whose ascension to the “throne” can only be explained by God’s providential intervention and who rules by his own laws. The crazier he appears to be, the more it proves to them that this is “of God.” This has always been a hallmark of Pentecostal logic — which is actually a perversion of the “Great Reversal” theme of the NT.
- These people are fighting a culture war that is at cross purposes with democracy itself.
- This is a religion full of kooks with idiotic theology.
197 thoughts on “Evangelicals for King Donald”
Which was one of his major assets during the campaign.
He said flat-out what those who later became his base were thinking (but dared not speak for fear of reprisals from their Anointed Enlightened Betters).
Ever since I read 13th Gen: Abort, Retry, Fail?”, Strauss & Howe’s analysis of the then-emerging Gen Xers, I’ve been expecting some kind of “America First!” backlash.
It talks of Gen-Xers who actually made it to college getting confronted by a Party Line Zeitgeist of “multi-culti professors” about “How the US should never ever act in its own interest, but always defer to International Decision-Making Bodies (like the UN).
And then they see other countries taking advantage of us over and over and over, while their Betters continue to chant the mantra.
The longer the earthquake fault stays locked, the more strain builds up.
And the longer the strain builds up, the bigger the earthquake when it finally hits its limit and cuts loose.
oceania has always been at peace with eurasia, comrade.
Come to think of it, “Shakina Kami” could be translated as “Shining Spirit”.
Which would lateral-shift to “Angel of Light”.
So Old Adolf was one full Strauss-Howe Cycle ahead of his time?
The lack of mercy common to True Believers when they come up against any Dissent to (or even simple opting out of) their One True Way of Perfection.
The Republique of Perfect Virtue (with Free Ice Cream for everyone!) always bares her breasts and beckons from the far side of the “Regrettable But Necessary” Reign of Terror.
> …. both of these names, once traced back to some of their etymological roots, ….
“Anglo-Israelites claim, however, that evidence comes not only from the Bible, but also from archaelology, heraldry, ethnology, and philology. You might be surprised to find out that the word “SAXON” is actually derived from “SAAC’S SONS” which was derived from “ISAAC’S SONS”. And “BRITISH” is from “BERITH-ISH” because in Hebrew “BERITH” means “covenant” and “ISH” means “man”. “BRITISH” really means “MEN OF THE COVENANT”.
— Donna Kossy, Kooks: A Guide to the Outer Limits of Human Belief, 1994
The face of revived fascism in Europe will be a pagan one, not Christian. They want the old gods of power and conquest, not the crucified One.
My biggest beef with Trump (and those vowed to bring him down) is that, for the first time I can remember, national politics is actually causing division and contention inside my own family. Some members of my family weren’t even willing to get together for the annual Thanksgiving and Christmas gatherings at Mom’s because of political disagreement. And siblings who have always been close have been talking smack about each other on Facebook.
I just don’t get it. Sure, Trump is big jerk with a big mouth and an even bigger ego. But for those who aren’t too fond of the way the ascendant PC priesthood has everyone walking on eggshells, his knack for pissing people off and ruffling feathers is kind of refreshing. And apart from all the junk he’s said and tweeted, I haven’t seen him actually use his executive power in a way that really exceeds past presidents. As far as using executive orders to circumvent Congress, I’m pretty sure Obama holds the record.
That said, I also don’t get why some people, particularly some members of my own family, practically worship the man and see him as doing no wrong – and see anything he does or says as somehow being God’s will. I believe God can work through anyone, even big jerks like Trump. But even if you hold off on judging the whole tree as good or bad, at least call each piece of fruit for what it is. Trump isn’t Christ, nor is he the Anit-Christ. And unlike Jesus, we don’t have to be either for him or against him. And there would be much less danger of Trump (or anyone else) becoming a tyrant if more people would mix a little moderation in their thinking.
Less for everyone except the Anointed World Controller and his Party Commissars in their Republique of Perfect Virtue. (And Total Sexual Freedom — Christians are not the only ones obsessed with Pelvic Issues.)
We have such a Republique of Perfect Virtue shaping up in California. Unicorns Farting Rainbows, Free Ice Cream for everyone, and all. It’s a main reason why everyone not of the Silicon Valley or Political Celebrity Elite with two coins to rub together is fleeing the state.
Isn’t the original meaning of the Commandment “Take God’s Name In Vain” to claim “This is from GOD!” for your own ends?
And things are about to get weirder…
Remember John Hagee and his “Four Blood Moons” End Times Prophecy?
Well, MSNBC this morning had a page on a “Super Blood Wolf Moon Eclipse” going down later this month, i.e. a total lunar eclipse (the blood moon) at lunar perigee (supermoon) during winter (woof!). Keep an eye on Hagee and other Christians for Nuclear War — such a Super Blood Wolf Moon would be a Fulfillment beyond Fulfillment.
“It just keeps getting Weirder and Weirder.”
— Johnny Bravo (baby!)
Hunh, “dustbin of history”
History recycles, cabrón, buen provecho.
I see Trump as the Republican ‘Golem’
Trump’s ‘revenge fantasy’ is to use ‘tariffs’ in order to ‘punish’ China for taking advantage in the past. The problem is that today he said China has already paid millions to the U.S. in tariffs since he started imposing them.
Why is this a problem?
Trump doesn’t understand that the tariffs are being paid to our government by American importers of Chinese goods. And then, the importer simply raises the PRICE of the washing machine, whatever, so that the cost of the tariff is then passed on the American consumer.
No Chinese money has paid ANYTHING. WE DID.
So because Trump is so joyful about his revenge against China, we Americans have to absorb the tariff burden Trump created.
And Trump’s soy bean tariff?
Our farmers in the soy bean states now figure that it will cost them more to plant their soy bean crops than they will make from selling them. So at the end of this year, many many farmers will be ruined.
Revenge? Oh boy. Trump last week said that the people affected by closing the government down over HIS wall were ‘mostly Democrats anyway’.
Problem: The US Coast Guard will stop being paid this month and they are NOT political. They serve the entire country at great personal risk, they are highly-trained and on duty to serve at their bases twenty-four/seven on call . . . ‘Semper paratus’. They will required to work without pay.
Why are THEY being punished for Trump’s temper tantrum over his ridiculous wall?
good link! 🙂
Yes the idea was you could not vote for a Mormon in 2008. But in 2016 you could vote in good conscience for the current president. Go and figure.
My apologies, CM, for not responding earlier. I spent way too much time here yesterday.
Thanks for the invitation for further discussion, but I feel I must decline. As a conservative evangelical, given the opinions from the NYT column and your opinions in the post, I am sure that my views on what is “anti-democratic” or “dangerous to the republic” would be very different. You and I could probably have a good discussion face to face, but this is a blog. I am not a very talented writer and I write slowly. Also, from my observations on the comments here over time, almost all the commenters are left of center politically (some more left than others). I simply do not have the time, patience or desire to respond intelligently to the comments that would most certainly come. In general, I try to keep my comments and responses short and relatively non-controversial for these reasons. This comment is about as long as I can write with any coherence. I hope you understand.
a very famous author wrote a book published mid-last century called ‘The True Believer’ (Eric Hoffer) wherein he suggests that the followers of extremist groups (fascist, religious, political, etc) carry the kind of baggage that can ‘mix and switch’ quite easily from one mode of extremism to another.
sounds to me like the followers of trumpism were primed for it by the training they had recieved among the extreme Christian far right from childhood, even (I recall seeing ‘Jesus Camp’ and cringing)
yep, the one was prep for the other only the participants didn’t have a clue about the trap that would fold over them by those who manipulated their grievances and fears
I understand holding your nose to vote. I don’t understand the hero worship.
Maybe. But Obama was far less egregious.
“AVE, CAESAR! MORITUMI TE SALUTAMUS!”
(Note: In period Latin, “V” was pronounced like our “W”, “C” was always hard (“K”), and “AE” was “long A”.)
I’ve heard him called “Slow Joe”, but not “Creepy Joe.
Not even with the Clinton Machine and those FBI files?
Take those into account and I can see “Hillary in 2020! Hillary in 2028! Hillary in 2032! etc”. Suicidial, but Monomaniacal Obsession can be that way.
Who was once SERIOUSLY proposed for no other reason than “She’s another CELEBRITY! Just Like Trump!”
Back in 2008 I used to say “Hillary is a Tammany Man”.
Could Hiillary vs Obama in the 2008 primaries have just been the New York Dem Machine (Tammany) vs the Chicago Dem Machine (Daley)?
And Evangelical Leaders (such as JFJr, Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress, and all those Dallas Mega/GigaPastors have taken the Mark of the Trump. On Forehead AND Right Hand.
Though during the runup to 2008 we DID get some Real Crazy Obama Fanboys surfacing. Fanboys who acted like Obama was “some kind of Messiah”. His campaign did hit most of the metrics of Messiah Politics, a very difficult maneuver to pull off but whose conditions surface in American politics every 20 years or so. (Reagan succeeded to a limited extent, and Ross Perot tried and failed to pull it off in 1992.) The current peak of Messiah Politics has been lasting a lot longer than previous iterations.
The two Obama Fanboy productions that caused the most stir where I am were “The Obama Children’s Choir” (from a rich part of Greater Los Angeles) with their “Hymn to The One”:
“Obama Loves Us,
Obama Will Save Us,
O Save Us Obama…”
And the “OBAMA YOUTH!” video of black teen rappers in uniforms marching with raised fist salutes:
“HE IS ALPHA!
HE IS OMEGA!
OBAMA! OBAMA! OBAMA!”
In retrospect, I could see Obama’s campaign staff facepalming and having to do damage control. Especially when someone found “Hymn to The One” synced up perfectly with a North Korean propaganda film about Comrade Dear Leader and put the mashup on YouTube and other Social Media.
I don’t think Taylor’s a Russian Plant, at least not deliberately.
He sounds like a run-of-the-mill New Age Crazy more than anything else.
And the news this morning is that the Dem-controlled House is playing right into their hands. First thing mentioned after the swearing-in was a movement for Impeachment.
Like Left Behind and Atlas Shrugged and Mein Kampf…
Romney’s best chance was in 2008, and the Christians torpedoed him in the GOP Primaries.
(“CULT! CULT! CULT!”)
News this morning is that the Dems are playing right into Trump’s base; their first act was to call for Impeachment, i.e.
“Why do the Kings of the Earth rage
Against the LOOOOORD and His Anointed?”
Which ramps up the PERSECUTION!!!!!!!! Porn and justifies Any Means Necessary to fight back.
All you need to add is Christians For Nuclear War (“It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied! Scripture! Scripture! Scripture!”).
When You Are GAWD’s Anointed Faithful Remnant Who Can Do No Wrong…
(And remember, Satan’s WITCHES and WITCHCRAFT are Everywhere…)
BEFORE ANYONE CAN THINK OF BLAMING US!”
My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) is in RURAL Pennsylvania. He told me he knew that Trump would win when he saw a HUGE turnout on Election Night 2016. A LOT bigger than normal for his rural area. And if you look a a Red/Blue map broken down by COUNTY instead of by state, you see a clean Rural = Red, Urban = Blue breakdown. With a couple anomalies, it broke down City vs Country.
With ZERO Discernment.
Which leaves them open to any sort of Woo-Woo.
Including Trance Channeling and Fanboy Delusion.
Note “ZERO Discernment” above.
If it’s Stupid and Delusional, It Must Be Of GAWD.
Oh, we ARE. Whether the current domestic constitutional and international liberal order survives this historic era is very much in doubt.
On the open border that evangelicalism shares with Pentecostalism, it is more and more being captured by religious and political sensationalism, of a very dangerous and toxic kind, represented by Taylor and the Trump Prophecies phenomena. It is ironic that evangelicalism has spent so much time decrying the perceived heresies of the liberal mainline churches, while all the while the most disturbing, cult-like things (dare I say heretical things?), are happening, and spreading, in its own household. Yet it continues to look away, and to blame secularism and pluralism for all that is bad in our society. It is truly a tragic, and likely willful, blindness.
John you missed the point. This is a critique of a certain evangelical craziness, and is only tangentially about the POTUS.
Charlie, we critique the evangelical circus here. Nothing new. Been happening for almost 20 years at Internet Monk.
Seneca, I think this is the best post you’ve ever had here. Thoughtful and thought-provoking!
there is a type of evil genius that locks in on peoples’ worst instincts and can sucessfully manipulate them . . . .
Hitler likely lost everything because he defied the wisdom of his generals who told him to attack to the West, so the Germans on Hitler’s whim, went the way of Napoleon’s soldiers, into the Russian winter, and perished by the thousands
if Hitler had had any sense, he might have listened to his generals, but like Trump, he thought he knew more than the generals
but as a manipulator of peoples’ feelings of being oppressed after WWI, Hitler was a genius and darned lucky until he wasn’t and his craziness took over and the intense Russian winter won out
Jesus is Lord and Savior!
wow, sounds like the admins over at the defunct SBCtoday . . . .
if you weren’t with ’em, you were ‘against em’ in their way of thinking, and no exceptions either
an angry lot for sure
“Clearly, we are reaping what we have sown in our attempt to be imperial rather than our same-old, dull, democratic selves. The government is losing the confidence of its own people, which is really the bedrock of a democracy. We are choosing national isolation to our peril, after decades of global peace through international cooperation. We have abdicated ethical and political leadership in a global world. ”
She’s right. We may be living in one of the most historic eras in the nations life. Hopefully not.
Really? What a waste of a blog post.
Although it was obviously popular, considering the number of post-ers.
Who cares, except those who want a place to politically rant.
I thought this blog was above all this.
Sorry, didn’t read the whole thing, cuz it seemed, half-way through, a waste of my time. If I want, I can find this elsewhere:(
Well, I believe this “prophet” mr Taylor has fantasized about such a thing…
I don’t know that it’s been mentioned but a lot of these “prophesies” and craziness from the christian trump crowd pretty much boils down to revenge fantasy. I know for some of the people I know it’s all about getting revenge for the Obama years, which somehow were the worst thing they’d ever lived through… and trump came along as way to bring revenge; and this Taylor dude is the same tool; a way to meet out revenge. (Such a Christ-like thing to do!)
As usual the NYT opinion piece uses an author, that few have heard of , much less read, to highlight a problem that is only a problem in the Never Trump universe. I have never heard of K. Stewart and I would bet most of Imonk readers have not either. Getting a movie into theaters is not any indication of support or Michael Moore would be a major player in swaying policy. As some one noted Trump’ support of evangelicals is just 3 percent more than the historic Rep. level, which means Trump got out a lot of people who do not usually vote.
Whatever happens to Trump politically , the establishment has decided to make Americans lose confidence in our electoral process and have chosen to oust a legally elected President using the power of the media, the bureaucratic infrastructure, the establishment Democrats, Republicans, Chamber of C, the Koch Brothers, 90 percent of the media and a mounted campaign such as the Stewart article that really is just stirring the ashes of the ever present Trump hate ashes.
Any group that votes for a candidate that represents their interest is a special interest group. Most of the evangelicals that id themselves as such are do so just to check the religion box.
Hard to believe but Trump won on the issues, illegal aliens and immigration laws being ignored, national security, the stupid Middle East wars , the economy and federal judges. Having a Never Trump article by a little known journalist is not ground breaking news.
Look at the love and attention that Romney, whom the press detested in 2012, will not get as he is the new McCain Never Trump, good Republican until he runs against a liberal.
I will repeat, to all the progressives and far left advocates, you have won the war, by demographics and apathy. I wish I could live long enough to see how it turns out. Do not fret Trump will be gone soon and your brave new world will proceed. I foresee my great grand children living in a second perhaps third world country but at least it will be “fair” and most will have an equal share of less . If you never know how good it was , you will never know, so it will be okay.
Bluesurly said, “These people are kooky. But shouldnt they be given grace while they deconstruct?”
I take your point and as a Christ follower – yes I will do my best to extend grace, mercy and yes, even forgiveness to these people in my interactions with them. But here’s a few points to consider:
1. I for one and probably most here, are not judging in the sense of final judgement. We let that up to God. But we are Biblically mandated to discern…good, bad, better, best, worst, etc. Personally I think there’s a big difference between making final-destiny judgement and making I’m-not-going-along-with-that judgements. I sometimes wonder if we’ve lost the art of the latter, and hence we’re in the place we are. Far too many leaders and people of influence in white evangelicalism have let these NAR/new wave/extremist pentecostal/charismatics run wild in this country and now we’re paying the price. It’s really high time they hit some walls and speed bumps… even if we, who push back, fail to do it perfectly all the time.
2. The tone here is actually pretty congenial, measured, and compassionate in comparison to how liberals/moderates/progressive Christians etc are described and spoken of by this “christian” trumpist crowd. Completely different and not in a good way…
3. I suspect, that like me, many here rub shoulders with many trump-loving/worshipping christians often and that most of the time we bite our tongues… and so we come here and spout a little. We do have to watch ourselves as you suggest, and I know I’ll try to keep it civil and polite. Personally, I’ve kept my mouth shut many, many more times in family and church situations than not (and that may not be something I should be proud of)
To Senecagriggs assertion that we liberal/progressive i-monkers are probably the same side of the trump-is-messiah…
Wrong. Obama is/was a far better pres than what we have now, but he wasn’t perfect; he wasn’t infallible and as a left-leaning moderate who voted for him, I never felt he was some kind of messiah that would or even could fix everything. And none of my like-minded friends ever spoke of him either like the trumpists talk about their idol now. False equivalence.
Don’t forget 20 July 1944… Soldiers have conscience, and I am not a prophet, but at some point perhaps there are professional soldiers who will think long and hard about what treason means. I’m not advocating anything of the sort nor predicting. Just trying to envision possible end scenarios, because there will be one, and in whatever form, it doesn’t look pretty from here.
Bear in mind, the Right won that civil war, and ruled with an iron fist for two generations with the blessing of the Church. Look at Spain today – could you tell now that it was once the most “conservative” nation in Europe? How many Spaniards today remember the Franco regime – and if they do, do so only to revile it? How is the Church doing in Spain now that their Falangist partners in crime have been consigned to the dustbin of history?
The Church that marries the political power of the present age always ends up a widow.
Soldiers and police are occasionally told in their training to not obey an illegal order, but they are taught by constant repetition and drilling to obey their superiors. Add to that that the military and police attract applicants with authoritarian personality traits, and attraction to authoritarianism, and you have to believe that most would follow orders. In cases when they had doubts about the legality of an order, their doubt would reinforce their tendency toward obedience by defaulting to the authority of their superior in matters pertaining to legality. “I was only following orders” goes a long way in protecting soldiers from facing justice for following even outrageously illegal and immoral orders; you would be disgusted if you knew how few Nazi military officials and regular German soldiers served jail time or were in any significant way punished for their atrocities during WWII on the basis of the legal systems high regard for that mantra.
If I were a betting man, I might put money on it. Trump Prophecy Christians and QAnon are both ready and calling for Trump’s political and media critics to be mass arrested, convicted by secret military tribunal, and summarily executed or sent to detention centers like Gitmo. The QAnon people, who are not completely separate from the Trump Prophecy Christians, assert that mass arrests have already secretly started. There are people in law enforcement, and probably the military, who adhere to QAnon’s teachings. There’s plenty of smoke here, the only question is how big is the fire?
That’s pretty powerful. Thanks, Ted.
We’d see a lot of commanders disobeying such an order because we swear an oath to obey and defend.the Constitutionn, not orders which patently violate it. Should such a day come, and I shudder at the thought, there would be widespread disorder among the troops and plenty of desertions. Based on his abuses of the military, commanders may not be his most reliable allies.
I didn’t vote for Trump, but I won’t make a case for Hillary, because I didn’t vote for her, either. I think she is smart, experienced, and competent in terms of knowing how the wheels turn in DC. She is also very much a hawk, and very much in the pockets of Wall Street; those are the reasons why I did not vote for her. I voted for a 3rd party candidate in my state’s primary, and I wrote in a name for President in the General Election, even though I knew that person wouldn’t win. I just couldn’t decide between H. Clinton and Trump who “the lesser of two evils” was. To me, they were both disasters, and I had to vote my conscience.
Trump is a fearful, insecure, immature, incompetent nincompoop who has managed to (accidentally, probably) make a small handful of good decisions in past 2 years, and dozens of bad decisions, along with telling hundreds of lies. However, I think impeachment would be the wrong move; too easy for Trump & allies to make it propaganda, and for Congress to get sidetracked in that morass. The American people needs to vote him out in 2020.
I think you are exactly right. The two groups are merging, and that is reflected in the attitude of Falwell, Jr and Liberty University to Taylor and the Trump Prophecies. I would say that’s because the Pentecostal movement has absorbed large numbers of evangelicals who formerly were understood to be fundamentalist; even though they may not have changed church location, those fundamentalists are now completely open to prophecies and other charismatic phenomena. The walls between the old categories are coming down, primarily because of the “success” of Pentecostalism.
this prayer, I love
wait a minute, if people buy into Mark Taylor, then Trump will have to dance to HIS tune;
like he danced to Hannity’s and Coulter’s
Trump will dance to the tunes of those in control of his ‘base’ . . . . so who is ‘god’ there? Trump? or Taylor?
If Taylor is a Russian plant, my money is on him to control Trump.
maybe Taylor is ‘sick’ . . . . was he ever properly treated medically or psychologically?
you can tell when you are among ‘non-Christian christians’ when they will take advantage of someone who is ill if it serves their agendas . . . .
my guess is Taylor is very sick, or a Russian deep mole . . . . I will give him that benefit of the doubt only
his followers? oh my goodness! what the hey! for comparison where do I go? to vintage films of Nazi parades and German supporters of Hitler, blindly led to their own destruction by that nutcase?
Or are people like Trump and his minions more of a symptom of something deeply disturbing in our American story, the ghost of a civil war never fully resolved emotionally, or a deep racism wherein Charlottesville is a reaction to black folks rioting and looting in the streets????
Trump, Taylor, et al (yes, even Hitler) came along at the ‘right’ time and all hell broke loose . . . are they merely the sparks that ignited a vast gathering of highly inflammable material stored up over decades awaiting its destiny?
One interesting aspect I have noticed that when I was young (70s), charismatics and fundamentalists were often considered separate tribes (using today’s language). They seem to be increasingly merging, and this article considers them the same. I have seen it increasingly in my extended family who are traditional fundamentalist evangelicals are becoming increasingly in line with traditional charismatics.
One reason Trump climbed so fast in the GOP Primaries is that the fed-up feeling among what became his “base” reached Critical Mass and he was just in the right place at the right time.
Remember a Seventies movie called Network?
I wasn’t thinking of a military coup AGAINST Trump, but one FOR him Ordered by The Commander-In-Chief(TM). With the pulpits cheering it on.
Yeah the “fruit” of delusion.
All flippancy aside, I do think sometimes that DT is a judgement of God upon our country….
I hadn’t read anything by Sister Joan Chittister in a long while, but here is a timely article she published today.
When it comes to people involved in the Church who are extremely rabid, I would say, take a look at where they are getting their big money from . . . . . especially the big-wigs who are saying ‘Russia is our friend’.
Follow the money . . . . . all the way from Moscow.
Christiane, here’s an old Anglican/Episcopal prayer, 1928 BCP:
“Lighten our darkness, we beseech thee, O Lord; and by thy great mercy defend us from all perils and dangers of this night; for the love of thy only Son, our Saviour, Jesus Christ. Amen.”
The primary system is a major cause of bad candidate selection. I’ll use my home, South Carolina, as an example. SC’s primary was held on February 20, 2016, either the 3rd or 4th primary/caucus in the nation. There were 14 declared Republican candidates, but 8 of them had already withdrawn from the race so 6 candidates were left. Of the remaining 6, Trump got 32.5% of the vote, Rubio – 22.5%, Cruz – 22.3% and Bush, Kasich and Carson split the other 22.7%.
South Carolina had 50 delegates. 29 went to the winner of the state and 3 each went to the winner of SC’s 7 Congressional districts. Trump was the leading vote getter in all of the districts, so Trump got all 50 delegates. South Carolina’s primary is open, meaning Republicans, Democrats and Independent voters participated (24 other states have open primaries also).
So 67.5% of the voters voted for someone other than Trump, yet Trump won all the delegates. There is only so much the voters can do.
Good. He is a seasoned humane person. With experience. And he said this:
“I could not remain silent after Charlottesville”
He understands basic human decency, seneca, and that is needed now.
thank you for responding . . . . I suggest a lot of ‘far-right so-called ‘christians’ have treated Christianity with disdain to the point of claiming that their support of trumpism is part of their ‘christian witness’, which it never could be . . . quite the opposite
I am worried about those caught ‘in the middle’ who trust their pastors and their church members who may have gone the way of trump worship . . . .but I do realize that, at the end of the day, each person has a conscience and will ‘know’ the difference between right and wrong doing, so when the trumpian prophet Mark Taylor speaks about ‘camps’ and ’rounding up’ those who oppose trump;
I suspect many evangelical people will say ‘wait a minute, that doesn’t sound right according to the Holy Gospels’
In the end, my money is on this philosophy:
‘you can fool some of the people all of the time;
and you can fool all of the people some of the time;
but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time’
the Nazi’s trained up their youth from a very young age: and I have seen ‘Jesus Camp’ so I know what many young Christian children have endured at the hands of some virulent extremists;
but even then in the end, a child responds to kindness more than hatred . . . . even then
Mule, Gretchen Whitmer, a brand new name to me. I’m no measure of all things political but the fact that she has no name recognition with me would suggest she’s largely unknown. She’s got 18 months to fix that; if it can be fixed.
I’m not a Joe hater at all but Christiane, he’ll be 78 in 2020,
Patricia – hmm
O’Sullivan’s First Law describes the drift of many politicians, leaders, and organizations. It was first coined by John O’Sullivan in 1989.
It states that “All organizations that are not actually right-wing will over time become left-wing.”
People in the middle always seem to drift to the left.
well that ‘armed insurrection’ idea is not a new idea . . . it got its start in trumpism from THIS:
““If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks,” Mr. Trump said, as the crowd began to boo. He quickly added: “Although the Second Amendment people — maybe there is, I don’t know.”
Oblique as it was, Mr. Trump’s remark quickly elicited a wave of condemnation from Democrats, gun control advocates and others, who accused him of suggesting violence against Mrs. Clinton or liberal jurists. Bernice A. King, daughter of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., called Mr. Trump’s words “distasteful, disturbing, dangerous.””
I suggest that there are a LOT of fear-filled reasons why our country has not risen up against trumpist evil, one being that the one-third of our citizens are likely die-hard gun-owning trump-is-god’s-annointed second-ammendment solution advocates . . . .
so they have had a chance to ‘thrive’, to do Charlottesville, to say ‘Russia is our friend’ on and on, but the other two-thirds of us are not in sync with the crazy, no, so we shall see what happens when Mueller reveals what Trump has been up to in his dealings with Russian interests . . .
the lines are drawn, the battle for our American democracy and against trumpism is inevitable; we can only hope there will be no blood shed or violence, but with Trump urging them on, his base may act in unwise ways . . . we shall see
it is, yes
HUG, you’re missing the point. It was President Obama (who a quarter of Americans believed maybe the Antichrist) was in office during the 2013 shutdown. At the time, conspiracy fringers like Michael Savage, Alex Jones and Glenn Beck were predicting a second civil war – and maybe even looking forward to it.
Today, you don’t hear paranoid delusions about black helicopters strafing the heartland to establish a world government, like during the 2015 Jade Helm 15 exercise. In 2019, you won’t hear the same cries for revolt against a government traitor who have usurped lawful authority. Just the opposite from activist evangelicals. Like a Fox News headline of a year ago: “Franklin Graham Warns Of Deep State Coup Against President Trump”.
While you might not hear it from pulpits, you might assume the military – whose job involves developing contingency plans – have at least mulled over potential scenarios which might precipitate a military coup. Many leaders are fed up with using the military as a political pawn, like entertaining him with a grandiose parade, or Operation Eternal Boredom on the Mexican border. And his invective against men who served their country with dignity and honor. Several were at his side and kept him from taking precipitous actions. It was reported that John Kelly, as his Chief of Staff, told a commander in change of nukes not to put on a pot of coffee without calling him first. There is indeed worry there. Just today, the headline: Trump’s And “Ex-GOP Naval War College Professor ‘Terrified’ As Trump Lashes Out At Mattis In Manic White House Rant”.
I’ve heard that some of them have vowed armed insurrection should the Congress move for impeachment.
Republicans, including white evangelicals, had many more choices than two during the primaries. If they had had the smidgen of discernment to see Trump for what he was from the start, the train wreck of an administration we are now seeing could have been avoided.
And I disagree that Hillary was a disaster. She’s a very bright woman, former secretary of state, former senator, with tons of experience. And she’s been investigated (and demonized) by the GOP six ways to Sunday for years and they found nothing of substance. Far from perfect, but better than Trump and probably better than some others as well.
But all that aside, the raw fact is that the vast majority of Christians who aren’t encapsulated in the American white cultural bubble saw through the Trump charade from very early on, while those in white American evangelicalism either could not or did not want to. And Christians from other nations even warned evangelical leaders before the election that a victory for Trump with the backing of evangelicals would harm the witness of the church. They were right. One cannot serve two masters.
Except for the fact he’s getting on in years, Biden is not a bad choice. He knows the ins and outs of that Nest of Vipers on the Potomac, he’s Old School enough to not have the Boolean Fanaticism, and he’s also blunt-speaking (though not to the point of Trump or Sanders). I understand one of “Slow Joe”s trademarks at a speech or media event was to recite the standard talking points then go “That’s what I’m supposed to say. Now that that’s over, here’s what I really want to say…”
No they’re not.
“THE CLINTONS! THE CLINTONS! THE CLINTONS!”
“TRUMP! CAN! DO! NO! WRONG!”
When it looks like you’re wrong, just Double Down AND SCREAM LOUDER!
I’ve said before that after a couple generations of Restored Christian America and its (forced) Godly Society, the name “Jesus Christ” will have acquired the same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”.
Long before there was Handmaid’s Tale, Robert Heinlien wrote its sequel: “Revolt in 2100”.
Not that much hyperbole, if you’ve had to counter-troll Eagle’s regular Bible-Quoting Trump Fanatic troll.
As a survivor of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, it reminds me more of Those Who Take The Mark in Bad Christian Apocalyptic, where once the 666 tat goes on, the tattee instantly and permanently becomes a total fanatic Beast Worshipper, loyal unto death (and beyond). During my time in-country, this and other absurdities with the Darby/Lindsay Checklist were explained/dismissed with Scripture(TM – what else?): “The LOOORD Shall Send Them Strong Delusion, That They Should Believe a Lie. Tsk. Tsk.”
And now these same born-agains act exactly like the Beast Worshippers they tsked-tsked.
And despite the fears about Obama when he took office (mostly stoked by the excesses of his fanboys), he turned out to be a fairly-average President.
“The Winner is never asked whether he has won fairly, ONLY WHETHER HE HAS WON!”
— Adolf Hitler, Cult Leader
That’s pretty much Eagle’s working hypothesis as to why Born-Again Christians are among the most FANATICAL of Trump Fanatics. (To the point of Those Who Take The Mark in bad Christian Apocalyptic books/movies.) He hits all the metrics they have been conditioned to view as Godly, only more so.
Makes a lot of sense, which is why it couldn’t possibly happen — not in today’s climate of Boolean Power Struggle.
And any Dem contender has to get past the Clinton Machine. Is Whitmer new enough that there shouldn’t have been an FBI file on her at the time of Filegate?
And Trump also looks like a Very Sore Loser. If he’s defeated in the 2020 Elections (despite his sewed-up Christian Vote), what will he do? Grab the Nuclear Football and threaten if he’s deposed? Go onto Twitter and the streets fill with armbands/AR-15s/Tiki Torches? Call upon the Army as Commander-in-Chief to overturn the election by Coup?
Andrew Gillum came achingly close to winning the Florida governorship last year. He could have been a contender in 2020, same with Stacey Abrams in Georgia. Either one of these candidates could have won in Missouri or North Carolina. If I were someone who had the ear of the Democratic party, I’d run people like that in swing states to get them
Gretchen Whitmer, if she can get Michigan through the upcoming Trumpcession, will be a strong contender. She seems a pragmatic sort of Democrat, someone who’ll actually do what Trump makes noise about; fix potholes, shore up bridges, keep the water clean. I don’t know how she stands on immigration, though.
Immigration is likely to be THE hot topic in 2020. Any Dem who breaks with the OneWorld-OpenBorders crowd, and there are a lot of them, could find themselves stealing Trump’s thunder. Immigration is the only bullet Trump has is in his gun belt, and a rational Democrat who promises a six month moratorium on all immigration coupled with a push for total immigration reform could walk into the White House like walking into Walgreen’s
I LOVE Amy Klobuchar (sp?)
she’s ten kinds of awesome!
but I’m a Biden supporter: he’s been through the fire, that man . . . he’s human, he’s ‘humane’, and right now, we need to return to ‘humane’ in our national leadership, as now what we have is a hot-hateful-mess
But hey, maybe the next Mark Taylor will have another vision anointing a liberal Democrat.
Wouldn’t that be the ultimate example of Pentecostal logic?
It does demonstrate how very non-variant they are; and the degree to which they will follow a label regardless of what it becomes affiliated with.
I suspect the candidates are growing closer to their constituents over time.
Seneca, you seem to assume all of us here, except you, are progressive. Your assumption is inaccurate. Personally, I’m a Centrist since that’s where reason and logic reside. I look down on both sides equally.
> And it tells me that something is deeply wrong with American-born and -bred white evangelicalism
I’d pretty much support any candidate who is a grownup at this point. I also prefer a moderate. Party doesn’t mean as much, though I’m pretty fed up with the GOP for abdicating their responsibilities and allowing the Trumpians to hijack their party.
No we did not have two choices. There were many options in the Republican primaries. Trump’s unsuitability and incompetence were very, extremely, and crystal clear, clear, clear in the primaries. The right will one day have to do some soul-searching as to how they displayed such poor judgement in choosing Dump.
It’s funny how the right laughed at the media for basically crowning Obama as the Chosen One, then these same people on the right and the right-wing media turn around and crown Trump as God. (That’s hyperbole.)
I very rarely agreed with Obama, but if he could come back today, I’d help him pack, move boxes, and drive the moving van. Why, you ask? Because his elevator went to the top, his people weren’t rank amateurs in the running of the government, and…he wasn’t controlled by a foreign power hostile to the US. But, the right just toodles along and says, “For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, God Don.” (That’s sarcasm).
Michael Bloomberg or Amy Klobucher. I’m willing to take a closer look at either of those.
Amy Klubucher (sp?)- from my home state of Minnesota. She has no “baggage”, and she’s Midwestern…hence the lack of east/west-coast baggage. But true – she’s not known outside of Minnesota and Wisconsin. I’d still vote for her.
I would take Romney over Trump ANY day.
There has been a lot said about the 81% white evangelicals that voted for Trump, but let’s look at their support for Republicans in recent elections:
2004, George W. Bush – 78%
2008, John McCain – 74%
2012, Mitt Romney – 78% (and he’s a Mormon, for goodness sakes!)
Source: Pew Research
81% is not that far above the last 3 elections. My opinion is that the extra few percentage points has to do with the Democrats running the worst candidate since George McGovern against Trump.
An Observation that I can’t not see:
if any of you have seen some of the ‘titles’ of Mark Taylor’s interviews, there is something that doesn’t make sense:
they are not sounding like titles made up by Americans, no . . . the phrasing is ‘off’ . . . . kind of like something made up by a Russian maybe???
even the comments sections of those ‘interviews’ have noted the silly wording of those ‘titles’ . . . that they don’t make ‘sense’ in our American lingo
but then, THIS COMES and ‘clarifies’ the ‘Russia is our friend’ mantra of the trumpist world:
Well, a lot of liberals do treat Christians with disdain, and I cringe when I see how they lump all of us together with the crazies. And, of course, many Christians also disdain all liberals.
They’re in for a bumpy ride when Meuller makes his report.
Yep. Trump is their Lord and Savior, the Inspired Word of God Don is Fox News, and the Holy Church is the (Russian backed) NRA.
If anyone questions the Russian part, Google “Maria Butina.”
Happy New Year, senecagriggs
right about now, I’m thinking anyone who OPPOSES concentration camps for our American people IS ‘an enlightened being’, in the world of christian-trump-worshippers-advocating-concentration camps, I am hopeful that SOME light may come to dispel the darkness or I fear we shall see a segment of our precious Christian witness fall into an evil darkness from which it cannot be retrieved without Divine intervention
old Catholic prayer (bible-based):
“come, Holy Spirit, enlighten the hearts of Thy faithful, . . . . and Thou shalt renew the face of the Earth’
wisdom from Judaism’s Rabbi Hillel:
“IF I AM NOT FOR OTHERS, WHAT AM I ?
IF NOT NOW, WHEN ?
Any I-monkers want to indicate what Democrat they would like to see in the playoffs? I, as a conservative, am quite interested in the thinking of those who are of a more progressive mindset. I actually like to know what the liberals/progressive think.
TOP CANDIDATES SO FAR
Beto carries no serious baggage at this point – handsome, face for television
Biden – He’s a 76 Caucasian with the nickname of “Creepy Joe.”; I think he’s too old; serious baggage
Bloomberg – was a Republican, might be considered a centrist; has the money to do this and has political experience
Booker – A New Jersey politician, he’s no Obama
Hillary – the anger still burns but running for a third time? She’s not healthy; Frankly, don’t see it.
Andrew Cuomo – Knows politics; knows big money but a N.Y. politician
Kamala Harris – Attractive, youngish female, could make inroads but she’s a Californian.
Kristen Gillibrand – Attractive; personable; everything that Hillary isn’t but can she raise a billion dollars?
Amy Klobucher – Not well known
Oprah – popular, huge name recognition; not sure the fire burns in her guts to be the President however.
Sanders – Bernie, like Joe, is getting up there in years. I think his best days are behind him.
Warren [ who is the only declared candidate but carries the baggage of brutal nicknames Lie-a-watha or Fauxahontas which I don’t think she’ll overcome, but I could be wrong.]
[ Their are others, such as Tim Kaine, Patrick, Murphy, Hickenlooper, but their name recognition is very low probably negating any chance they’ll make the top 3 though they might be excellent candidates ]
[ I like Michelle Obama, though I wouldn’t vote for her, but I think she’s actually more impressive than her husband or ANYBODY ELSE RUNNING. I don’t think she’s willing to run; but that could change.]
[ BTW, it’s possible Romney will make a run at Trump. I’d vote for Romney over Trump.]
Hillary wouldn’t have had most of her cabinet resigned or under indictment by the halfway point of her term?
If that isn’t a strong enough case, I don’t know what would sway you.
Obama was a better-than-average Democratic politician, who mostly continued the economic and diplomatic policies of W, excepting the health care expansion. One thing you wouldn’t find is any of us saying about Obama what Falwell Jr said about POTUS in his interview with the Washington Post –
Q – “Is there anything that he could do to make you lose your support of him?”
A – “No.”
Hello Michael Z
you wrote “Liberals often treat Christians with distrust or disdain”
aren’t you meaning the reverse??? IF you are referring to the kinds of ‘christians’ who advocate concentration camps for those who oppose trumpism?
what is a ‘liberal’?
and what is a worshiper of trumpism?
and what does it mean to be ‘Christian’ in a world where 2 little Guatemalen children suffered and died in the hands of Trump’s people ?
If you are not ready to confront ‘christians’ who advocate concentration camps these days, what ARE you?
” IF I AM NOT FOR MYSELF, WHO WILL BE FOR ME?
IF I AM NOT FOR OTHERS, WHAT AM I ???
AND IF NOT NOW, WHEN ?????
“The mostly unconscious forces which propelled Trump into the Oval Office will not be dissipated by a “progressive” victory in the Electoral College in 2020. The New York Times has no answer.”
Because the problems behind those unconscious forces *have no answer* – at least, no answer that would allow us to continue to live our lives in the manner to which we have become accustomed.
I’m waiting for the calls from the pulpits for a military coup, like the last time we had a shutdown.
Herod, Sadducees, Pharisees, CAESAR RULED OVER ALL.
You can make a case for Putin being Caesar.
(Isn’t “Tsar” the Slavic form of “Caesar”?)
‘WE’RE THE WINNING SIDE NOW!!!!!”
Remember the 80/20 Groupthink threshold:
the 80% becomes The One True Way.
the 20% are Purged/Cleansed by Any Means Necessary.
And for these guys, GAWD Is On Our SIde.
well, if you are trying to shut people up, you ARE involved . . . . AND responsible for what you will not confront that is evil, as we all would be if we caved to your kind
is an old saying:
“For bad men to accomplish their purposes it is only necessary that good men do nothing.”
for my own thinking, an awful lot of this kind of talk comes from Russian bots having their way with vulnerable ‘christian’ types who are fed a steady dose of Trump idolatry . . . them Russians? . . . .they are smarter than the average bear by far, but in their land, all the goodness flows upward to Putin and his oligarchs . . .
my Coast Guard son will not be paid during the current trumpian tantrum, but Trump’s cronies, our new American oligarchs, are rolling in it from the great trumpian tax cut . . . if you are one of the top 5 % in our land, be content, but trump-people, pay your Coast Guard . . . they sacrifice too much for all of us to be treated with such contempt
Cersei Lannister or Benito Mussolini.
They would Praise God and sing Hallelujah as they poured the Zyklon B crystals into the packed showers…
… enforce your own vision of normality on others…due deference and respect of privilege…
Yeah, this, mostly, the ability of my side to control the narrative and declare what is and what isn’t admissible, the privilege to decide which idols’ altars get our pinch of incense. Nevertheless, I hold a number of views which could cost me my livelihood if I were ever to be pressed about them. Currently they fall into the category of Not My Business, but that could change. I never thought I’d live to see the day the USA companies would feel the need to hire Commissars to enforce political orthodoxy, but hey, I guess the Soviet Union was a good idea, just their methods were so primitive. Extension and withdrawal of credit is just as likely to produce compliance and is far less messy.
Things here in the YooEssAy aren’t so much pre-Hitler as they are pre-Franco. The Spanish Civil War was such a showcase of tolerance and repect for differing viewpoints.
Problem with Biden (who as VP would have normally put his hat in the ring in 2016), is the Dems have to derail the Clinton Machine. (Hard to do with Hillary’s FBI Files.) Otherwise, all we’ll see is:
Hillary in 2020.
Hillary in 2024,
Hillary in 2028,
Hillary in 2032…
John, please. Hillary Clinton was a disaster. In the US, we had two choices; Hillary or Donald.
If you want to go ahead and make your case for Hillary, let’s hear it.
I do wonder how many of the I-monkers didn’t secretly think Mr. Obama just might be the “Lightworker.” Are progressive I-monkers different than charismatic Evangelicals or are they really the same people, different sides of the coin.
I’m thinking they are the same.
‘concentration camps’ . . . wonder where these ‘good Christian people got THAT idea from???
well, my very intelligent M.D. brother voted for Jill Stein, the ‘green candidate’ and it wasn’t until he saw THIS PHOTO of her at a dinner with Putin and Trump’s cronies that he got it in one who she really was in with:
my brother says that in 2020, he’s probably going to vote Democratic for the first time in his life, and he’s looking at Biden as ‘his guy’
I guess it took that image to convince my bro of what ‘collusion’ is all about but I think it was the treatment of the littles at the border that really got through to his paediatrician’s heart . . . . that was it for him . . . sea change . . . . some things are not to be reckoned as collateral damage in these wars where racism has no limits in its viciousness even to little ones who are helpless against the unkindness
That sounds like a good starting point for discussion, Ken. I’d like to hear more about what you are observing.
Hey Neigher side…Sooooo…we should just bury our heads in the sand and act all Kum-By-Yah and meek? Just sit on the sidelines and march lock-step with the Trump squad?
Me? No thanks.
you are right on here, Chaplain Mike
it is the ‘witness’ that is being harmed. . .
but there ARE other anti-democratic pushes going on and they are filled with an old evil reeking of racist hatred, anti-semitism, and willingness to destroy our American democratic institutions, not the least of which is our rule of law in this country.
still, when the pendulum swings as far to the right as it can go, it will have no place to hide, and maybe that is what is needed to wake people up . . . but at what price, this???
I have no doubt since NATO was targeted by Trump, that he serves his Russian masters, so ‘kompromat’ (sp?) is much suspected. . . . turning Syria with its geographical asset over to Russian control was a gift too great to deny that ‘this President’ is obeying orders ‘or else’ and what more will be done, and when, and will our NATO allies be deserted to this trumpian alliance with Putin . . . . all my conjecture, partial imaginings, and my own version of a ‘conspiracy theory’ pehaps, and yet . . . Russia is a lot stronger in the world now for Trump’s efforts to take down the Western alliance created post WWII . . . a lot stronger . . . as my Latvian relatives are sensing as their situation grows more fearful with less confidence in the NATO support coming with each steadu trumpist drum-beat
The support for Trump among evangelicals is particular to, and revealing of, white America’s evangelical culture and mindset. I grew up overseas in a missionary community of people from many western nations, and support for Trump among white evangelical Americans in that group is far, far lower than it is among those who remained in America. I’m talking less than 10%. And support among the Christian expats from other nations is even lower.
This serves as an indicator that the support for Trump arises more from cultures and subcultures than from any real Christianity. And it tells me that something is deeply wrong with American-born and -bred white evangelicalism. Specifically, in waging a culture war to supposedly protect itself from the wrong influences, it has not only accommodated those who stand in sharp contrast with the way of Jesus, it has embraced them.
The church never does well when it seeks worldly power; sometimes it even stops being the church.
I agree with your first point, not so much your second.
What lack of mercy do you fear from “progressives”? The only thing threatened is the loss of the ability to pursue a conservative agenda or the ability assert authority over or enforce your own vision of normality on others. You may think the result will be moral degeneracy and chaos, but it’s difficult to see where this will involve lack of mercy to you personally, unless to you “mercy” equates to “due deference and respect of privilege”.
Before Trump, there was Obama, “the Lightworker.”
Because Trump *IS* LORD, the REAL Second Coming of Christ.
(I literally cannot make up crap like this…)
“Remember, it’s not a lie if YOU believe it.”
That’s what you get when both major parties end up nominating their WORST possible candidate.
“Cersei Lannister or Benito Mussolini —
you have to vote for one or the other!”
Doesn’t that sound like the testimony of a Trance-Channelling New Age Guru?
Complete with the change-of-name confirming the Super-Guru’/New Messiah’s special status.
But compared to Rael, “Spaceship Ruthie” Ariel, and/or Bo & Peep (Heaven’s Gate), “Beautiful One Whose Desires Are Fulfilled, and in Whose Life the Lord Dwells with the Divine Wind of Providence.” does not sound out of place (and pretty egotistical to boot).
This! Why aren’t Evangelicals trotting our their favorite trope of “Idolatry”?
> that being that voting for any candidate is not sinful.
No, I am not sure I believe that.
Isn’t that the same as saying “Trump is GOD”?
Or at least a crooked Megaspastor/Superapostle?
(Which is Eagle’s thesis of how Trump became the Second Coming of Christ (Take His Mark!) — corrupt Gigapastors/Superapostles have “groomed” Christians as to the indicators of God’s Anointing. And if The Trump acts more like a Gigapastor/Superapostle than a Gigapastor/Superapostle, then He Must Be More Anointed. He Must Be More Godly. He shows the Indicators of God’s Anointing more than God’s Anointed.)
Yeah, I’m actually more concerned with regard to Taylor about his like bringing ridicule upon the church in the long run. However, the anti-democratic virus they are carrying is not the only strain out there and that’s truly dangerous to the republic.
Maybe Taylor did prophesize. Some prophecies are of judgement not deliverance. I wonder if his life has shown any other “fruit”…
Okay, never say never.
The Nazis held 107 of the 577 seats in the Reichstag in 1930. When 107 of Mark Taylor’s followers are elected to Congress, call me.
And don’t tell me that the Republicans are the same thing.
Methinks you haven’t read much Internet Monk. Try this well worn piece on for size —
According to Richard Land,
“I believe Donald Trump is a more moral man than Hillary Clinton is a moral woman. I believe he’s more moral, I believe he is more of a law-abider, I believe he’s a far better person to be president of the United States than Hillary Clinton.”
Ask any German circa 1930 about that nut case with the funny little mustache…
From the WP yesterday:
Washington Post: Is there anything President Trump could do that would endanger that support from you or other evangelical leaders?
Jerry Falwell, Jr.: No.
I think there is a difference between judging theologically held positions that differ but do not conflict with the basic tenets of Christianity, and what is being peddled here. I think it’s a big tent and there is room to err and to grow. I’m certainly a case in point. I have some very unorthodox ideas that I am pretty convinced about but will not take up a nationalist type cause to espouse. I run into opposition here on a semi regular basis and discussions are had. Sometimes they are heated and sometimes people don’t view others so kindly. Still, here we are. There is no room for debate and discussion like that on this other thing. Not serious questioning at least. It sounds like questioning Trump is akin to questioning God’s anointed. It is the particular brand of thinking that led to the Inquisition and every evil done in the name of God and righteousness. It is in absolute conflict with, and contrary to, the gospel. They are supporting a man that grandstands as immoral, unethical, lascivious and openly and unabashedly hateful. He promotes hate as a political tool. That requires a response from every person that cares about Christian values and or American norms of behavior. We all fight our demons and look to our better angels. He says, to hell with the angels. Just go with the demons. That hurts in the short and the long term.
Did anyone read Joe Heim’s recent article in the Washington Post regarding his interview with Jerry Falwell Jr? Falwell seems to indicate that “it may be immoral” for evangelical leaders not to support Trump. It’s nothing new from Falwell, but just recent. Sad,
@Adam: in my own life, I give some financial support to ministries that I have political disagreements with if I feel that in other ways they are doing beneficial work.
God’s way of interacting with human beings is incarnational: meeting us where we are, wrapped in our flesh, accommodating us because we are unable to accommodate God. I think that extends to the diversity of Christian churches and organizations. For example, the college ministries I participated in decades ago now seem hopelessly immature to me, with their black-and-white thinking and simple answers. But they were also exactly the right place where I was able to encounter God in that phase of my life. So, I still support those ministries even though I know they buy into some of the “culture war” rhetoric, because I don’t think that keeps them from being a place where people can meet God.
There are some churches or organizations that are so far from embodying the Gospel that I believe they do more harm than good. But I think God is less squeamish than most of us are about being present to individuals even in settings where leaders are distorting or misrepresenting Christianity.
“Just like New Age Woo-Woo, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Born-Again Bible-Believing Christians(TM) are THE most Fanatical of Trump Fanatics.
To them, even Jesus Christ Himself bends the knee and burns the pinch of incense to The Trump.
Just a troll.
Whenever Eagle does anything on this subject, the Trump Truth Squad attacks with fangs out.
From an article monkey-branched to from the NYTimes article referenced in the article, the one concerning the Insect Apocalypse: very relevant to the discussion at hand and far more troubling than even Evangelical support for Trump
Trump will probably be gone by 2020. He was a real anomaly, kind of like my beloved namesake from Mr. Asimov’s Foundation series who disrupted Hari Seldon’s historically inevitable algorithm predicting incremental growth in peace, plenty, and liberty (where have we heard that siren song before?) simply by existing.
HOWEVER, I believe the mostly unconscious forces which propelled Trump into the Oval Office will not be dissipated by a “progressive” victory in the Electoral College in 2020. The New York Times has no answer. To them, I am the enemy; someone who is consciously authoritarian, purposefully patriarchal, and gleefully heteronormative but not paranoid in any clinical sense. I just realize that I will be shown no mercy by the likes of them.
I use the word “progressive” in quotation marks because I don’t agree with the destination.
That sounds like the Anglo-Israelite movement of the 19th Century, using the word “Berith” from the Bible to PROVE from SCRIPTURE that the Anglo-Saxon Race are God’s REAL Chosen People and The British Empire was to Rule the World by Divine Right.
(After all, “History ended well because it ended with the Victorians.”)
Agreed that the Mark Taylors of the world are different, but there has been and will always be false prophets/teachers. They will come up with something crazy after Trump is long gone. I don’t know how much influence these nut cases have, but I don’t think it will ever be sufficient enough to institute an Iranian-style theocracy. We have many more pressing problems to face.
How about Global Thermonuclear War?
(But then, IF you’re a Real True Christian, you’ll be Raptured up into your reserved catered suite in Heaven to watch it all as a spectator sport before anything bad actually happens to you. Yes, I’m a survivor of The Gospel According To Hal Lindsay.)
And when you mix End Times Dispensation into the mix…
Ever heard of “Christians for Nuclear War”?
IT’S PROPHESIED! IT’S PROPHESIED!
80% is the threshold where Groupthink locks in HARD.
Where the 80% Ideology becomes the One True Way and the 20% Heretics are Purged by Any Means Necessary.
Because not all Christians think alike. There are reasons (Supreme Court nominees, abortion, the other candidate is worse) but you will probably never understand them.
I am not following what you are trying to express?
IMO it seems to me you are judging those of us that do not see things the way you do. Trump is a stumbling block to many IMO.
I do not consider voting for Trump or Clinton sinful. What I do not understand is how “christians’ voted for Trump?
Here’s an interesting article on the real reasons voted for Trump. Actual numbers are included.
Note: I don’t think the University of Chicago Divinity School is an evangelical institution.
As a progressive evangelical, I’ve long since had to come to terms with being politically homeless. Liberals often treat Christians with distrust or disdain, and generally have an “anything goes” morality even in areas where progressive Christians would insist on maintaining some boundaries. Meanwhile, conservatives tend to approve of and even celebrate sins like racism, misogyny, white supremacy, gun-worship, etc.
What that means in practice is that if I want to remain faithful to Christ, at times I’ll find myself having common cause with either Democrats or Republicans, and at other times I’ll end up speaking out against them. And that also means always feeling like an outsider in the political world. But I’ve had plenty of time to get used to that idea.
Conservative Christians for a long time have been able to trick themselves into believing that Republicanism aligns perfectly with their faith. But as of 2016, those sins that have long been a hidden (or willfully ignored) undercurrent of the Republican agenda have been brought out into the open and paraded around for everyone to see. So, conservative Christians are only now having to ask the question of who they will follow when their commitment to Christ and their political ideology pull them in opposite directions. It’s not surprising that for someone who has never consciously faced that choice before, it will take them a while to begin to discern what a faithful Christian response looks like, and that in the meantime they’ll be drawn to anything that lets them ignore that tension for a while.
I think that KA Sam, Adam and mot may have missed my point, that being that voting for any candidate is not sinful. If Jesus Christ were running against Satan and one voted for Satan, that would be sinful, but neither were running (well, some think that Hillary was Satan in the flesh).
I’ve spent time in nearly every form of Protestant church (liturgical, conservative evangelical, progressive evangelical, charismatic, Calvinist, etc.) In my own experience, I’ve seen a higher percentage of authoritarian and narcissistic leaders in Pentecostal circles than in any other types of churches. So, it’s not surprising that those are the churches most drawn to Trump, because they’re more likely to have members who are either drawn to that sort of leadership or at least who see that sort of leadership as normal.
These people are kooky. But shouldnt they be given grace while they deconstruct? That is the usual insistence on here when someone wanders in the ‘wilderness’. But when it doesnt match your orthodoxy they are a danger to the faith. This blog has started out the New Year reading like TGC or some other police blog. The very thing you usually eschew is dripping all over the place. Nothing wrong with the article or the post btw. But most of you sound like those ‘evil’ reformed folks who get bent when their beliefs aren’t right. Which goes to show, doesn’t matter which camp you fall into whether evangelical, mainline, or catholic. My beliefs are more right than your beliefs. But then you will excuse yourself because it is Trump.
To your money question: Actually we don’t give that much…we don’t adhere to the 10% rule, if that’s what your asking. (With kids/family and today’s depressed wages, we really can’t afford such luxury) We give to church specifically sometimes, but more goes to other charities outside our church/denomination.
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to think of Putin as Cyrus?
A potential counter-meme: Trump as the Antichrist. “…so as to deceive the very Elect…” But maybe that’s Putin too, huh?
“…filled with page after of page of spiritual mumbo-jumbo, illogic, over-the-top melodrama, the loosest coincidences being interpreted as divine intervention, conspiratorial thinking, and uses of the Bible that are wildly idiosyncratic and entirely subjective.”
Not a bug but a feature.
We spent years in the Charismatic world. Some of our former co-religionists follow a group/website called “Prophets for Trump” (http://prophetsfortrump.com/). Beyond the obvious point that no prophet in the Bible chose a side in a political discussion, these people tend to be of the mind that Trump is God’s anointed, and no real believer dare touch him with anything else than complete, unblinking allegiance.
> at least when the ‘perpetrator’ is a Christian
And affluent. And white.
Wow. How very un-Christ-like, regardless of political opinions.
Yes, it appears they have a win-win going for them.
Yes, 81% seems significant to me!
I know evangelicals, who are decidedly NOT charismatic/pentecostal who feel pretty much the same way – lock up them godless librels and embrace the king! When I think of all this, since the 2016 election, one passage of Scripture comes to mind – 2 Thes 2:11-12. I also understand why Jesus put such emphasis on not being deceived in the Olivet Discourse! Some Christians will follow or listen to just about anyone who claims to speak for God if it gets results, or even tangentially embraces ‘biblical values’.
> they’ll more likely just quietly pretend they didn’t support him
I am cool with that, whatever. I am happy to let people rewrite their history in anyway which has a positive outcome. 🙂
‘(Note also that it recently hired a football coach who had resigned in disgrace from his previous job, when he was caught using prostitutes as part of his recruiting toolkit. I have seen very little pushback from this.)’
But he’s a Christian, and we have all sinned, nobody is perfect, God is the god of second chances . . . blah, blah, blah, at least when the ‘perpetrator’ is a Christian. The ‘church’ (no matter whether evangelical or Catholic) will whitewash sins of ‘its own’ but condemn non-believers who do less serious things (and will allow its own to continue in ministry or positions of leadership, even if it endangers others). If Christians were half as ‘gracious’ to non-Christians maybe non-Christians would take them seriously, or if they would hold their own to the same standards as they do non-Christians.
Historically speaking, it would take a major disaster for people to reconsider their support for him. And even then, they’ll more likely just quietly pretend they didn’t support him than give any kind of public repentance.
It is very clear what they are interesting in conserving.
I confess a degree of Schadenfreude in relation to the moral implosion of Liberty U.
Decades ago I was the president of the college ministry at a mega-church. We are a university city, with something near a dozen colleges, half of them Christian. But every fall the Children Of The Elite, mostly business owners and real-estate developers, would send their sons off to Liberty U [and a few to Cedarville]; our college program was about the hoi polloi local college students [you know, the people who where actually there]. Then every spring the Anointed Ones would return, to have summer Bible Studies blessed by the flushed adoration of the Elite; these Bible Studies would run weekly at some McMansion for maybe a month before petering out; or on occasion having to be stealthily terminated due to some kind of male-female misconduct [assuming the female was of sufficient rank that her being upset mattered].
Liberty U has been a cancer within American Christianity from day #1.
I am more and more convinced of the truth of this observation… “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
And those leaders were pilloried by the rank and file for their stance.
> I pray God raises up some push-back (besides quivering, not-sure-what-do me)
More conversation about what a more “Christian” society would look like would very much help.
There is too much this-isn’t-X [which is easy], and too little what-IS-X [which is harder].
The later conversation does happen, yet the PTBs seem disinterested; which is something disturbing on its own level.
Something like Mr. Lotus’ https://mereorthodoxy.com/ten-theses-bible-poverty-justice/ That’s a start.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the argument: if you want people to be more Good, make being Good easier, rather than making being Good harder [the later having been America’s thrust for my entire life – – – keep turning the screws until people get gooder – – – a policy direction which has been an unmitigated failure – – – yet somehow the meme that America is somehow soft continues to trend – – – baffling].
Using Biblical terms, I view Trump more in the role of King Herod Antipas and the American evangelical leaders as members of the ruling religious class of Pharisees and Sadducees
As long as the religious class had the power of the Sanhedrin, they were happy. Political power trumps all else then and now with many religious leader.
Who is assuming the role of John the Baptist and calling all out for repentance of their sins?
Question, meant respectfully and without judgment: How do you feel about giving them money? I get that such things withing one’s own sphere are “complicated”.
> I pray God raises up some push-back (besides quivering, not-sure-what-do me)
I know the feeling, or knew it before I left. Sitting there, looking around, … is everyone cool with this face-in-the-clouds [literally!] nonsense? Apparently so. Being a push-back of one is pointless; so I left.
I read the NYT article yesterday…disturbing, to say the least.
On the other hand, Liberty University is not (or at least was not until recently–it’s not clear what, if any, theology Falwell Jr. holds) Pentecostal, and it has gone all in on Trump. Liberty University is a flagship institution of mainstream White American Evangelical Protestantism. #NotAllEvangelicals is unpersuasive so long as Liberty U. maintains its standing. (Note also that it recently hired a football coach who had resigned in disgrace from his previous job, when he was caught using prostitutes as part of his recruiting toolkit. I have seen very little pushback from this.)
Unfortunately, in my denomination/conference, some of the leaders are the proponents of this pentecostal/charismatic/third wave/new apostolic reformation crazyiness. Now I will give some credit to them for the moment, because I have not heard these leaders publicly advocate for trump yet, (semi-Mennonite so the martial and infidelity stuff doesn’t excite them so quickly) but I do believe they are very susceptible to crazy “winds of the spirit” and wouldn’t be surprised to see them fall for it very quickly… they’re quite gullible to every other crazy bit of charismatic/pentecostal hocus-pocus. I’m quite worried, actually, but I pray God raises up some push-back (besides quivering, not-sure-what-do me)
While it is true that not all evangelicalism is responsible for the behavior of part of that movement, it is also true that just as the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholics as individuals have a responsibility to get at and redress the core problems that have cause/allow systemic predatory behavior of priests against minors, so evangelicalism as a movement needs to redress the core problems that cause/allow the rise of a movement like Taylor’s in the evangelical fold. I understand that because of the disparate and isolated existence of so many different denominations/branches in evangelicalism, and the resultant lack of communication and understanding between the different branches, this might be very hard to do, but here’s how you start: stop complaining so much about how anti-Christian the secular society is, and start paying more attention to, and advocating against, the widespread disease within the general religious movement of evangelicalism.
Amen +1000. She’s right on; I have close personal experience with it. A family member is charismatic/pentecostal/nar and worships trump/trumpism. They have publicly called for the rounding up and internment of all their political enemies in concentration camps. (pretty much everyone to the left of them) They sincerely want that to happen, no joke. They would praise God and sing hallelujah if that happened.
> Only 8 percent of adults say they are interested in hearing pastors’ views on issues such as
> same-sex marriage, LGBT rights, abortion, guns, tax policy,
Shouting into the storm.
The Barna Group’s study from a 2016: “Only 8 percent of adults say they are interested in hearing pastors’ views on issues such as same-sex marriage, LGBT rights, abortion, guns, tax policy,…”
1.) Those guy’s are not Leaders, nobody is following.
2.) They needed to speak/stand up, or get a clue, long before now [then?]. It is not as if plenty of people were not telling them what was going on.
3.) Courage/Leadership, given how pointedly irrelevant they are in their current roles, IMNSHO, would be if they resigned. They aren’t going to do that, they seem to never do what would actually matter.
> …. both of these names, once traced back to some of their etymological roots, ….
UGH! The lamest of intellectual hooey, equivalent to the essay which begins “Miriam Websters defines XXXXX as ….”. It is the job of every High School teacher everywhere to squelch the writing of all such essays – as that is not how language works and it is NOT an argument – yet they are still abundant in Religious spheres. #sadness
> Evangelicals don’t all vote for Trump.
No, they didn’t, the most recent and reliable analysis only puts their support at 81%. So, not “all”; but that is something barely worth saying.
But the Christian leaders and people that CM is referring to here are dangerously crazy. The Never Trumpers in the SBC are expressing a political position, and a political position can be wrong or right. But the leaders and groups promoting the Trump Prophecies/Mark Taylor represent the intersection of radicalized Christianity/Christian prophecy and demented conspiracy theorists (they certainly overlap with the vile and toxic QAnon); they are a growing segment of the Christian religious population, both in numbers and influence; and they would support hard to imagine repression and violence by the Trump government in the service of their political/religious beliefs. It is not a Christian movement, but close to what the Bible describes as antichrist. Whether individual people in the group are actually Christian or not is not the issue — the movement is not a Christian one, though it claims to be, but a metastasizing seed of the same kind of intersection of radical religion and radical politics that occurred in the Iranian Revolution in 1979.
Yes, I agree. Evangelicals don’t all vote for Trump. Evangelicals (in Canada anyway) will vote across the political spectrum.
On the other hand, the evangelical leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention, lead by Russell Moore and the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, were advocating the #NeverTrump line, basically accusing Trump voters of sin. Earth to all religious leaders: You cannot determine whether or not one is a Christian based on who they voted for or against.
I spent the worst part of 4-8 weeks perusing Charisma News online and I can tell you that it is mainly the Charismatic/Pentecostals that have crowned Donald Trump as God’s chosen one. It was disgusting and terrifying how most of these folks couldn’t admit that someone who didn’t vote for Trump could still be a Christian.