The Liturgical Gangstas 2: Attractional, Missional or Sacramental?

Welcome to “The Liturgical Gangstas,” a panel discussion among different traditions represented in the Internet Monk audience.

Who are the Gangstas?

Father Ernesto Obregon is an Eastern Orthodox priest.
Rev. Peter Vance Matthews is an Anglican priest and founding pastor of an AMIA congregation.
Dr. Wyman Richardson is a pastor of a First Baptist Church (SBC) and director of Walking Together Ministries, a resource on church discipline.
Alan Creech is a Roman Catholic with background in the Emerging church and spiritual direction. (Alan’s not a priest. If he is, his wife and kids need to know.)
Rev. Matthew Johnson is a United Methodist pastor.
Rev. William Cwirla is a Lutheran pastor (LCMS) and one of the hosts of The God Whisperers, which is a podcast nearly as good as Internet Monk Radio.

Here’s this week’s question: Three words are coming up frequently in discussions about the church:

Sacramental: Think Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican. God gives sacraments. The church distributes them as the center of Christian experience and the church’s mission.
Attractional: Think the Evangelical MegaChurch. Kickin’ band. Lots of technology to fill the pews with an “audience” to hear the Gospel.
Missional: Equipping believers to go away from the “Building,” into the culture to participate in the mission of God as they find it in their culture: mercy ministries, justice and peacemaking, working with the poor, just being present in the world as servants and witnesses.

These are three good words. All of you would use them in some way. (Well….Baptists can’t spell sacramental, but still…)

What is the way to go to be the church Jesus is building: Sacramental, Attractional or Missional? And in what mixture? For what reasons? Continue reading “The Liturgical Gangstas 2: Attractional, Missional or Sacramental?”

Open Thread: It’s Sunday Morning…What’s A Family To Do?

UPDATE: This thread is sitting an IM record for posts in a short period of time. And some very interesting responses.

One of the commenters in a previous discussion raised a very interesting, practical situation facing young families that would make for a good open thread topic.

“Going to church” is very difficult for families with young children. The stress of getting everyone up, dressed, fed, in the car and on the road is difficult, even for two parents and especially if they have more than one child. The result can be both comic and tragic.

Depending on the church and on the family’s own values, a family may take advantage of a nursery and children’s ministries, or they may decide that all the family should be together in worship. This may be further stress, may necessitate almost complete inattention to what is going on in worship and may stress out more than a few other worshipers.

All of this is, of course, even more of a problem for single parent families.

Is it any surprise that many families with small children simply say that “traditional” church is impossible for them to navigate?

How can families with young children have a continuing participation in church life? Is it impossible? Should they worship as a family? Should one parent go with older children?

How can churches make this time more manageable for families with young children? Is the answer more nurseries and children’s programs? Or is the answer a different experience of the church altogether?

What’s your experience, both as a family and as a church? And what’s your advice?

Seven Observations For Parents (And the Best of IM’s Parenting Posts)

In the eight years (this month!) that I’ve been writing here at Internet Monk.com, I’ve said a lot less about parenting than I should be saying.

Recently, a reader wrote me to say that he valued my view on many issues of life and family because I was older (52) and I’ve been through many of the stages of life experience that others are still looking forward to.

A conversation with my Advanced Bible class about God’s love as expressed in parenting, and my own reflections on parenting as my son announced his engagement have stirred up all kinds of potential posts about parenting.

So, instead of writing them all, I’d like to attempt a quick walk-through of some of my own observations about parenting. I’ll stir up more than I can respond to, I’m sure, and I don’t want to create the impression that I know the answer to all of the issues related to parenting, but perhaps this overview will help us locate some good topics for future posts.Continue reading “Seven Observations For Parents (And the Best of IM’s Parenting Posts)”

Riffs 12:01:08: Post-Evangelical, Post Vatican II Common Ground: The Importance of Bible Study

More good reasons right here for everyone to order the Treasury of Daily Prayer from New Reformation Press. Click their ad on the sidebar for a great price on a product that has the FULL Lutheran scripture readings for every day.

Internet Monk lurker Dave McGowan sends along this piece from America magazine (I know, I know) on the increased importance of Bible study in the Roman Catholic Church, and the opportunities presented by the study of the scripture in parishes, classes, ecumenical settings and individually.

Is it true that Catholics don’t read the Bible? Many don’t, but similar numbers of Protestants don’t read the Bible either. Catholics believe they get the Bible in Mass. Protestants think they get it in sermons and Sunday School. But I can tell you firsthand after 30+ years of teaching the Bible, that very, very few people actually read the book at all. Most know a view of various stories and teaching that couldn’t be substantiated by any serious presentation of texts. They just know that some preacher or family member assured them that this was “what the Bible said.”

When people actually read the Bible, they are always surprised. It’s never what they expected.Continue reading “Riffs 12:01:08: Post-Evangelical, Post Vatican II Common Ground: The Importance of Bible Study”

iMonk 101: Where Have You Gone, Thomas Merton?

December 10 will be the fortieth anniversary of the death of the closest thing I’ve got to a famous best friend, my brother Thomas Merton. His influence on my life is very substantial indeed. You can always pick someone and become a fan, but Merton really has been more of a guide to all of life, and especially to the interior life that goes so unnoticed and unheeded by most of us.

My experience with Merton was incredibly positive, and in retrospect it’s hard not to be bitter at the experiences of Roman Catholicism that have changed my perception of Merton. Some of those changes were truthful and necessary, but they ended a feeling and an experience I didn’t want to lose. Such is life and growth, I suppose.

I wrote this piece in November 2007, not as a tribute to Merton, but as a bit of a lament over my recent experiences with Roman Catholicism as compared to the experience I’d had with Merton. Things were a little raw at the time, and as Denise has progressed in her journey toward Rome, I’ve become more at peace about much of this. The apologists in the IM comments have faded. I think you’ll figure it out rather easily. I miss Merton even though I never knew him, and I value every person in my life who embodies his earthiness, curiosity, generosity and inclusive catholicity.

Not everything has changed. I understand Catholicism better thanks to many friends. I still resent the apologists when my conversion is the goal. I still want that idyllic view of monastic spirituality, even as I know it was an illusion even for Fr. Louis.

Read: Where Have You Gone, Thomas Merton?

iTunes Problem Returns +Advent Blog Now Open

After reinstalling OS X and two days of problem free operation, iTunes is now crashing again after one bounce of the icon on the dock. Get info works and I’ve done nothing to the computer in the last two days.

So if anyone can give me any advice on fixing it, I’m all ears. (I’ve tried everything suggested in the previous thread.)

If you are a Mac geek and have some time tomorrow after 3 EST, I can get on AIM. Write me.

Every year for the past three years, several of the BHT fellows have blogged during advent at “go to bethlehem and see.” a blog devoted to advent.

That blog is now open, and I invite you to add it to your rss feed. I’ll also encourage contributors to update on Twitter.

We try to keep things “Advent centered” and not Christmas centered. Your comments are welcome.

The Weekend File: 11:29:08

John H at Confessing Evangelical suggests some devotional resources in the Orthodox tradition.

James White has some video from the John 3:16 Conference. Apparently some in the “crowd” of 600-800 don’t believe Calvinists are Christians. I certainly believe you can be lost in any version of theology or church, and I have no doubt that this brother is sincere, but a constructive conversation about Calvinism can’t proceed on the premise that Calvinists are lost. (And the ridiculous blaming of the SBC’s 6% Calvinists for decreased baptisms is right out front. White is correct that a conference like this mainly communicates that future ministers will be shunned if they have any Calvinism in their doctrine.)

When David Allen asks what unites Southern Baptists, I’d love to hear his answer to what he calls “Baptist distinctives.” Teetotalism? The Hymnal? And the “theological systems” he wants to avoid should include incoherent fundamentalism as well.Continue reading “The Weekend File: 11:29:08”

Riffs: Joseph Bottum on The End of Advent (and the horror of our version of Christmas)

Joseph Bottum: “The End of Advent,” at the First Things blog.

Many years ago, we made a decision to, as much as possible, speak of Advent and not of Christmas, until Christmas. I’ve never been able to hold off the Christmas music, but as much as possible we’ve stayed with that commitment.

It’s also amusing to watch my co-workers get the puzzled look when I start referring to “advent,” something some/most of the have never heard of. They often assume I’m one of the “Christmas is a Babylonian occultic festival” whack jobs, which we usually have somewhere in the gallery.

It’s really very simple: Christmas is the feast of the incarnation and the season following that event. Advent is the recognition that we need a savior and the longing for that savior to come, according to God’s promises.Continue reading “Riffs: Joseph Bottum on The End of Advent (and the horror of our version of Christmas)”

Response Part 2: Christian Community and Abandoning Commitment

With this post I am concluding my response to the series The Unresolved Tensions of Evangelicalism.

This post will look at “Disillusionment With Christian Community” and “Abandoning Christian Commitment Itself.”

The previous “Response” post (with links to the previous four) is here.

Disillusionment With Christian Community

Of the four issues I have examined, the disillusionment with Christian community has prompted the most response from evangelicals themselves. Throughout its history, evangelicalism has addressed this issue through study, discussion, experimentation, success and failure.Continue reading “Response Part 2: Christian Community and Abandoning Commitment”